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innerwolf
08-12-2014, 22:34
Hi!
I play a count-as Ogre Kingdoms army, which is Native American/Inuit Bison Minotaurs in a nutshell. This is the conversion I did for my Ironblaster.
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As I'm writing a fan rulebook (mainly changing background and unit names and triming the fat, pun intended :D), I thought I could make more fitting/less OP rules for the Ironblaster.

The main thing would be changing the cannon for a super-bolt thrower.

I would like it to still be powerful enough for the hefty price tag, and competitive, while being more balanced by the regular BS based shooting rules.

My ideas so far would be range 36" St 8 bolt thrower, 1d6 wounds. No moving and shooting penalty special rule (Stable platform), BS4 crew (efectively a Hunter).

Do you think it would be balanced? Too weak? Any ideas or sugestions for tuning it?

I posted it in general instead of Rules development because I think this is a good chance to also discuss what makes the Ironblaster so powerful and how to adjust it.

MOMUS
08-12-2014, 22:54
I would give it the power to instantly destroy an EvanM from 200 yards away.

N00B
09-12-2014, 00:00
Maybe some kind of cluster-bolt-thrower. Keep it the same but only allow the grapeshot attack from the cannon?

innerwolf
09-12-2014, 22:40
I would give it the power to instantly destroy an EvanM from 200 yards away.

I guess he is infamous for his hatred towards Ironblasters, isn't he? :D


Maybe some kind of cluster-bolt-thrower. Keep it the same but only allow the grapeshot attack from the cannon?

That's precisely one of the parts of its rules I want to avoid. It seems overpowered and it doesn't fit my conversion and its background. But it was a good idea nonetheless.

With the rules I wrote above I think it's balanced against the cannon variant. At short range with no cover it's slightly more accurate than a cannon (which fails 2/6 of the time plus under-overshots), and less accurate with penalties. It doesn't hit both riders and monsters and need clear line of sight to the target without "nominate a point" shenaningans.

If no futher suggestions are added i will playtest it like that and share how it fared.

theunwantedbeing
09-12-2014, 23:11
A few slight modifications
1. Change "no move and shoot penalty" to "can move and fire"
2. Change the wound multiplier from D6 wounds to D3 wounds
3. Change the Ballistic Skill from 4 to 3

Basically turn it into a "proper" bolt thrower, that is one that isn't really any good and is vastly inferior to a cannon except for being incapable of blowing up.

innerwolf
09-12-2014, 23:21
A few slight modifications
1. Change "no move and shoot penalty" to "can move and fire"
2. Change the wound multiplier from D6 wounds to D3 wounds
3. Change the Ballistic Skill from 4 to 3

Basically turn it into a "proper" bolt thrower, that is one that isn't really any good and is vastly inferior to a cannon except for being incapable of blowing up.

For 120 points, maybe? That's ridiculously weak for a 170 points model, and it wouldn't contribute anything to the army.

That's worse than a Scroungerunner, and nobody uses them. Plus, look at the size of the bow and the harpoon. If it doesn't deserve 1d6 wounds I don't know what does.

Lord Dan
09-12-2014, 23:54
Keep it the same. After all, they're not cannonballs - they're "bolts". ;)

N00B
10-12-2014, 00:30
Give the shot heroic killing blow and have it cost 150 pts and i think it would be reasonable?

theunwantedbeing
10-12-2014, 00:32
For 120 points, maybe? That's ridiculously weak for a 170 points model, and it wouldn't contribute anything to the army.
It's still a St8 bolt thrower and for 120pts that's a steal, especially given how tough it is.
You wouldn't even need to bother moving the thing to make it worth having at 170pts, let alone 120.


That's worse than a Scroungerunner, and nobody uses them.
That's because they're St4 To4 Wo4. Not St5 To6 Wo5.
Also they're almost as expensive as an Ironblaster is.


Plus, look at the size of the bow and the harpoon. If it doesn't deserve 1d6 wounds I don't know what does.
It's crewed by a minotaur who hasn't got any extra ammo.
So on that basis, bs3 and one shot only :)

Or just use your rules as I doubt anyone will care, it's not an Ironblaster and that's all anyone is going to be bothered by.
I just figure that everyone else's bolt throwers mounted on chariots are all terrible, yours should be as well.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
10-12-2014, 01:19
What's wrong with Ironblasters? They're expensive and come out of rare...really not that big of a deal. You might as well just tone the way cannons work down a bit with a houserule rather than come up with a whole new unit.

Awesome model BTW, though. Seriously...really awesome.

innerwolf
10-12-2014, 07:52
Keep it the same. After all, they're not cannonballs - they're "bolts". ;)

That's what I have been doing previously, but the rebound mechanism (nor the grapeshot) don't fit the model very well. A huge bolt doesn't bound off the ground, it gets stuck! :D In addition, I see where the "laser guided cannon" fad came from. It's pretty absurd how they can target a point in the ground and reach almost anything.


Give the shot heroic killing blow and have it cost 150 pts and i think it would be reasonable?

I will ponder the heroic killing blow. Nice idea ;)


It's still a St8 bolt thrower and for 120pts that's a steal, especially given how tough it is.
You wouldn't even need to bother moving the thing to make it worth having at 170pts, let alone 120.


How much does it cost (or costed if it's no longer possible with the current Dwarf rulebook) to have a runed up bolt thrower with strength 8? I doubt it reached 120 points. T6 W5 sounds pretty tough, but T7 W3 isn't that far behind. Plus a competent player can charge the chariot in the flank and ignore the ST5 attacks.
The Gorebeast chariot is similarly tough (better save?) but a lot killier and clocks at 135 points, I think it should be kept in mind. And GW doesn't make us pay for the full warmachine on top of the chariot cost, see for example the Skull cannon or even the Skycutter (25 points for a BS4 bolt thrower).



That's because they're St4 To4 Wo4. Not St5 To6 Wo5.
Also they're almost as expensive as an Ironblaster is.


They are also BS4 and only a point of strength lower. Plus quite faster. Are you sure about the price? I think it's far cheaper.



It's crewed by a minotaur who hasn't got any extra ammo.
So on that basis, bs3 and one shot only :)


Touché ;) but if I'm going to tune the rules to the model, I think they should reflect its apparent power better than S8 1d3 wounds.
If I grab more Hunter spears I will give him some extra ones :p



Or just use your rules as I doubt anyone will care, it's not an Ironblaster and that's all anyone is going to be bothered by.
I just figure that everyone else's bolt throwers mounted on chariots are all terrible, yours should be as well.

But shouldn't we try to fix bolt throwers on chariots instead of making them all equally sucky? I would give all of them the "no move and shoot penalty" rule (it already eist for the Thundertusk, isn't it Steady mount or something loke that?) at the very least.


What's wrong with Ironblasters? They're expensive and come out of rare...really not that big of a deal. You might as well just tone the way cannons work down a bit with a houserule rather than come up with a whole new unit.

Awesome model BTW, though. Seriously...really awesome.

Well, I don't think they are so overpowered per se, as you said the problem is with cannons. As I have no other cannons in my group I guess I can houserule this one and make it more fitting to the model while I'm at it :)
Thanks for the compliment!

Shadeseraph
10-12-2014, 08:34
How much does it cost (or costed if it's no longer possible with the current Dwarf rulebook) to have a runed up bolt thrower with strength 8? I doubt it reached 120 points. T6 W5 sounds pretty tough, but T7 W3 isn't that far behind. Plus a competent player can charge the chariot in the flank and ignore the ST5 attacks.
The Gorebeast chariot is similarly tough (better save?) but a lot killier and clocks at 135 points, I think it should be kept in mind. And GW doesn't make us pay for the full warmachine on top of the chariot cost, see for example the Skull cannon or even the Skycutter (25 points for a BS4 bolt thrower).

The skullcannon is called "skillcannon" by many for a reason. As for the LSC... its bolt thrower is S5 and only has a reach of 24". Both of those points make it fairly underwhelming, specially the range.

As for the comparison to runed up BT... I'm afraid T6 5W is much, much better than T7 3W. Even more so, because the dwarf bolt thrower loses its T7 once in combat.

Now, personally I'm not against it being better than other chariots with bolt throwers. I mean, as tUB said, right now all Bolt-throwers-in-a-chariot are fairly bad.

N00B
10-12-2014, 09:39
Boosting the strength of the bolt-thrower is a big deal. It isn't just for taking down big things but also for how many ranks it is likely to shoot through. Given its ability to get a flank shot and hence kill a lot of models even on small units I would keep a careful eye on this.

The elf bolt thrower chariots suck a bit because all of the penalties begin to add up. Moving for -1, reduced range means more likely to be at long range for another -1 and this is from a starting ballistic skill of 4.

bobhope99
10-12-2014, 10:20
N00B, don't forget this thing is being changed down from a cannon that doesn't lose any strength, Innerwolf is already making this one quite a bit weaker just for the sake of fluff.

Innerwolf, your setup looks fine, I can't imagine anybody having a problem with you using outright weaker rules for the sake of better fitting your fluff.

Alltaken
10-12-2014, 16:29
Kill grape shot, reduce 1D6 to 1D3 wounds, reduce cost to make it better priced and call it a deal.

innerwolf
10-12-2014, 17:28
Ok, I'm going to try it as in the fist post. Thanks for all the input!

Dorack
10-12-2014, 17:34
You can use a heavy runed (penetrarion and others) dwarf bolt thrower for some guidelines on point costs

sixfthoneybadger
10-12-2014, 19:44
Why tone it down? It's one of the few things Ogres have to help them not get curb stomped. To be honest I think it should be ITP.

GrandmasterWang
11-12-2014, 01:49
Bs3 for the minotaur. No bs4. Makes no fluff sense or sense looking at the model. Stable platform though so move and fire ok.

Gorebeast chariots and Khannons are broken so don't even bring those up if you want your house rules accepted. I generally find if the home brew units are low to average power they are most easily accepted and seen as fair. Given the Ironblasters falls towards the op side it helps your case for your homebrew version

Compared to a dwarf bolt thrower, your "Bolt Blaster" can move so in addition to being harder to kill is more efficient at targetting. Plus it's no joke in combat and imo should be even better combat wise (see below). For the record a strength 7 (rune of penetrating) dwarf bolt thrower with bs3, no move and fire and causing d3 wounds will set you back 95 points! You cant upgrade them up to strength 8.

Now, onto your house rules. Your model is a beast with a mega harpoon so Strength 8 is fitting imo. Also the d6 wounds seems ok given it's size. As bolt throwers are d3 wounds and cannons are d6 wounds some people are telling you to use d3 wounds. Given your bolt thrower is a fatty crewed by a minotaur I think d3 +1 wounds caused would be the best representative of a souped up bolt thrower launched by a roided up bull.

170 points for the thing is fine with the bolt thrower at strength 8 doing d3+1 wounds.

In my friendly group a lot of my house ruled beasties/units are accepted so I have some experience coming up with accepted rules.

So the shooting on your Bolt Beast is nerfed compared to an Ironblaster ( good). Keeping with the fluff for your model it would receive a slight combat boost as Minotaurs have Strength 5. Minor but it does effect 3 attacks and the impact hit. Given the Minotaur is crewing I would ignore the frenzy.



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innerwolf
11-12-2014, 06:33
Bs3 for the minotaur. No bs4. Makes no fluff sense or sense looking at the model. Stable platform though so move and fire ok.

Gorebeast chariots and Khannons are broken so don't even bring those up if you want your house rules accepted. I generally find if the home brew units are low to average power they are most easily accepted and seen as fair. Given the Ironblasters falls towards the op side it helps your case for your homebrew version

Compared to a dwarf bolt thrower, your "Bolt Blaster" can move so in addition to being harder to kill is more efficient at targetting. Plus it's no joke in combat and imo should be even better combat wise (see below). For the record a strength 7 (rune of penetrating) dwarf bolt thrower with bs3, no move and fire and causing d3 wounds will set you back 95 points! You cant upgrade them up to strength 8.

Now, onto your house rules. Your model is a beast with a mega harpoon so Strength 8 is fitting imo. Also the d6 wounds seems ok given it's size. As bolt throwers are d3 wounds and cannons are d6 wounds some people are telling you to use d3 wounds. Given your bolt thrower is a fatty crewed by a minotaur I think d3 +1 wounds caused would be the best representative of a souped up bolt thrower launched by a roided up bull.

170 points for the thing is fine with the bolt thrower at strength 8 doing d3+1 wounds.

In my friendly group a lot of my house ruled beasties/units are accepted so I have some experience coming up with accepted rules.

So the shooting on your Bolt Beast is nerfed compared to an Ironblaster ( good). Keeping with the fluff for your model it would receive a slight combat boost as Minotaurs have Strength 5. Minor but it does effect 3 attacks and the impact hit. Given the Minotaur is crewing I would ignore the frenzy.



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Very well thought post GrandmasterWang.

I will give you some more insight into the army so you see from where things came. They are called the Wissen, and they are "evolved" Minotaurs who, after following a prophet, embraced the faith on Mother Earth and formed a relatively organized society.
As they left the blood frenzy behind, they are slightly weaker than Minotaurs. But they are quite more intelligent. That's why I use Ogre stats on all of them.
Why BS4? Well, think of it like a mini OK Hunter (they also have BS4): he is supposed to spend all his life mounted on a sled firing harpoons at monsters, and a failed shot could mean death. I think it's reasonable, and means hitting on 4+ at long range (most of the time) at enemies in the open. A worse roll and it's too unreliable to cost 170 points.

I will adopt the 1d3+1 wounds idea. It's a very reasonable middle ground.

Thanks!

Dorack
12-12-2014, 00:46
Wasnt there a TK giant style model with a bow used as bolt thrower?

fimiromanic
12-12-2014, 01:56
On another note very cool idea for a counts-as ogre army! Do you have a plog that has pics?! And very nice looking conversion...

innerwolf
12-12-2014, 06:24
On another note very cool idea for a counts-as ogre army! Do you have a plog that has pics?! And very nice looking conversion...

I was just pondering opening a project log here to show the army, meanwhile you can find many of my units and their approximate fluff here: http://innerwolf88.deviantart.com/gallery/49574947/Wissen
Thanks for the compliment!!

GrandmasterWang
17-12-2014, 06:50
Sounds cool. Ill check it out

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