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Smooth Boy
09-12-2014, 02:04
Well whether the End Times will still be relevant in 9th edition or not is up for debate, but if it is we can all see that some armies have been permanently amalgamated. I was just wondering how the aesthetics are going to work out? Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts for example have such differing looks it's going to make the army look like a mess. Do people think each side will keep its own identity and just share a book? or will GW slowly release units that replace the old ones and are more in keeping with a united look (like Nagash for example)? Anyone who's read Khaine can see there's some pretty irreversible damage.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
09-12-2014, 02:27
Absolutely not. I think the rumour of combined books was the outcome of a "telephone game"-style chain of misinterpreted information. We've already been given combined armies in the forms of the Legions rules. Why would GW sell us one book where they could continue selling us two (or even three!).

The legions give us interesting ways to combine multiple armies, which in turn gives GW a way to cross-sell product to their players without expecting us to purchase a whole new army in one go. They've realized that the bulk of their market is existing players who like building their armies in small increments, and this gives them a dramatically easier way to do it than updating our armybooks with new kits every 5 years.


Yes the damage in Khaine is irreversible...but not in a way that will fundamentally change the way games are meant to be played. Special characters represent a fraction of GW's models, many of which are in obselete metal or finecast anyways. They can die without affecting the game in any appreciable way beyond the lore. The lore has been substantially reworked...but that doesn't mean the game need be changed as well. You can still run your same-ol' list, just with slightly (or substantially) different fluff justification.


I expect that we'll see the devastation to the world end its course with the last End Times book. From thereon in armybooks will be free to elaborate on all the successes of the race's heroic climb back to glory. Bretonnia will seize back cities and relics in heroic crusades. The Empire will rebuild, and its engineers will craft cunning new warmachines. Khemri will overthrow its bonds of servitude to Nagash and expel his minions once more. The Elves will once more splinter into factions, a proud yet dying race (though a decline that will take thousands of years - as in Tolkien).

...because really, End Times are cool and all, but nobody buys an armybook to read about their chosen faction getting their asses kicked around.

N00B
09-12-2014, 02:32
Maybe a drift away from what you are asking but I am doing conversions to keep things in theme for my Legions of Chaos. Beastmen on mournfang mounts for skullcrushers, my warshrine has a Bray Shaman on it and I have a couple of demon princes in progress- one adapted from a keeper of secrets and one from a verminlord.

Whilst a bit unique to chaos I always found the clash of Aesthetics between cods to be worse than the clash between armies.

Smooth Boy
09-12-2014, 02:41
I agree for the most part, I think the range at the moment is far too elaborate for any of the races to go into one book (except chaos), but with what happens in Khaine I can't see any other options. Spoilers here obviously but now Ulthuan's gone I can't see where the elves can go either physically or in terms of lore if they split again.

Ludaman
09-12-2014, 07:21
I agree for the most part, I think the range at the moment is far too elaborate for any of the races to go into one book (except chaos), but with what happens in Khaine I can't see any other options. Spoilers here obviously but now Ulthuan's gone I can't see where the elves can go either physically or in terms of lore if they split again.

Teclis just raises Ulthuan back up of course ;)

dalezzz
09-12-2014, 08:15
I agree for the most part, I think the range at the moment is far too elaborate for any of the races to go into one book (except chaos), but with what happens in Khaine I can't see any other options. Spoilers here obviously but now Ulthuan's gone I can't see where the elves can go either physically or in terms of lore if they split again.

the populations of tilea , estella and the border princes have been mostly enslaved or killed, most of their coastal city's are even built on elf ruins ;)

edit , half the empire and bretonian are dead too.... Lands gonna be cheap after the end times :D

N00B
09-12-2014, 11:31
Teclis just raises Ulthuan back up of course ;)

Or maybe a Slann does it? They have bad habits that way.

theJ
09-12-2014, 13:37
I agree for the most part, I think the range at the moment is far too elaborate for any of the races to go into one book (except chaos), but with what happens in Khaine I can't see any other options. Spoilers here obviously but now Ulthuan's gone I can't see where the elves can go either physically or in terms of lore if they split again.

Speculation: at or near the end, Malekith dies, and the Elves are split between the remaining leaders - The Woodies follow Alarielle, the High Elves follow Imrik, and the Dark Elves follow... um... someone suitably creepy - is Hellebron still alive?
With the old world devastated, there is plenty of land for the "new"(presumably with fancy new copyrightable names) elven factions to claim for their own, which also justifies renewed conflicts with the previous owners of those lands(empire, brets) as well as other claimants(lizzies, ogres, etc.).

The same could also end up true without Malekith dying - once the threat of Chaos has been sufficiently curbstomped, what's the Impetus to remain united?

Either way, I expect the only truly lasting effect of this alliance to be that the Elven factions can now team up in larger events without breaking fluff(just like in 40k! :D).

TheLionReturns
09-12-2014, 15:18
I think there has been a move to harmonize the Elven aesthetic already with the new wood elf models taking some design cues from both High Elves and Dark Elves. They remain distinct but you can see the influences in the new wood elf models. From a personal point of view I will not be using any High Elf or Dark Elf units in my army. The styles, despite efforts, still clash too much for me. What I may do is design some new units, background included, that fit rules from other army books and use a combination of parts from wood elves and dark/high elf models to represent them. That is a long way in the future though and won't happen until I feel my wood elf collection is complete.

Darnok
09-12-2014, 15:26
I can't speak for Elven armies (I have none), but the first two ET books give you the options of visually coherent armies. You do have to put some work into it in the case of Undead Legions. But meshing any two armies together would look weird if they aren't planned as a coherent force.

That said, Undead Legions and Legions of Chaos can look awesome. Take EL: both the VC and TK book offer a variety of new toys to the other one, and if you actually convert and paint some of them accordingly, it adds a lot to each army, both in terms of gameplay and visual elements. I think of VC versions of the Casket of Sould (using the Mortis Shrine bits) or more "gothic" chariots, to give just two examples.

The options for Legions of Chaos are even more varied. You don't even need many conversions here - even if there is so much to try out with the kits from all three armies - and a unifying colour scheme is all that is really "needed" to tie the different books together.

TL/DR: you need to put some actual efforts into it, but you can gain a lot by combining the armies - in gameplay as well as in visual terms.

infamousme
09-12-2014, 18:10
Of my three elven armies, only my dark elves are painted as a coherent force (and even then, my khaine units have their colors reversed as to have more red than purple). I have found that consistant basing technique goes a long way to make an army look like it belongs together...

That being said, i have mounted some old metal cold one knights onto some silver helms horses to represent silver helms in my dark elf army.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
09-12-2014, 18:27
TL/DR: you need to put some actual efforts into it, but you can gain a lot by combining the armies - in gameplay as well as in visual terms.

From the battle logs I seem to be in a minority of people doing an Undead Legions army themed towards Khemri rather than the gothic VC look. Probably because most of my TK brethren are purists...who knows. Point is it's actually quite a bit of work. I have at least 30 more hours of work in my Khemric terrorgheist. Headswaps onto all the vargheists. Converting mummies out of ogre bodies for crypt horrors. Not even sure what to do with my direwolves.

It's coming together amazingly, but it's not an easy task. Easier for someone willing to just throw some models together and paint them all the same, but for a hobbyist like me it's loads of work.

Darnok
09-12-2014, 18:29
It's coming together amazingly, but it's not an easy task.

True, it's not at all straightforward. But I think it will pay off in the end: you end up with an awesome collection of models, and they do play well together.

Philhelm
09-12-2014, 19:10
Speculation: at or near the end, Malekith dies, and the Elves are split between the remaining leaders - The Woodies follow Alarielle, the High Elves follow Imrik, and the Dark Elves follow... um... someone suitably creepy - is Hellebron still alive?
With the old world devastated, there is plenty of land for the "new"(presumably with fancy new copyrightable names) elven factions to claim for their own, which also justifies renewed conflicts with the previous owners of those lands(empire, brets) as well as other claimants(lizzies, ogres, etc.).

The same could also end up true without Malekith dying - once the threat of Chaos has been sufficiently curbstomped, what's the Impetus to remain united?

Either way, I expect the only truly lasting effect of this alliance to be that the Elven factions can now team up in larger events without breaking fluff(just like in 40k! :D).

We think along the exact same lines. The worst I could see is for the Wood Elves to be absorbed into the Dark/High Elves lists, or perhaps the High Elves will become a little less glittery. I also think that it is important that Malekith is the "Avatar" of Shadow and the Everqueen is the "Avatar" of Life; this right here has the possible beginnings of a new fracture. Maybe the "Life" Elves will remain in the Forest of Loren while the "Shadow" Elves will go to Tilea. Then the Lizardmen could take Estalia (in a reverse Aztec conquest of Spain) and bring Cold Ones which will become indeginous to the region and accessible by the "Tilean" Elves.

Mike3791
09-12-2014, 19:50
I don't know why some people are making a big deal about Elves, virtually all the units are mirrors of each other and still have the exact same stats, strengths and weaknesses. I think they gained the least out of the three, a few new rules but nothing anymore powerful then Chaos/Undead Legions. As far as stat/unit diversity goes, Chaos wins hands down.. as they have just about every unit type.

Colonel Mayhem
09-12-2014, 20:55
I....I think it's because you only look at the stats. This is about aesthetics and visually High Elves and Darks Elves are miles apart.

Philhelm
09-12-2014, 22:23
I don't know why some people are making a big deal about Elves, virtually all the units are mirrors of each other and still have the exact same stats, strengths and weaknesses. I think they gained the least out of the three, a few new rules but nothing anymore powerful then Chaos/Undead Legions. As far as stat/unit diversity goes, Chaos wins hands down.. as they have just about every unit type.

Therein lies the problem. If Elves were combined in one army, would they really keep Cold One Knights, Silver Helms, and Dragon Princes? Or Executioners, White Lions, and Swordmasters? Or Phoenix Guard and Black Guard? That's a lot of inventory space for a bunch of redundant units that would cut into each others' sales.

For people that would actually prefer to run a strictly Dark Elf, High Elf, or Wood Elf army, these changes come with a bit of trepidation. I was wanting to start a Dark Elf army, but I'm left wondering which units will still be valid when 9th edition comes. I would cry tears of blood if Cold One Knights were to ever be squatted (although I don't anticipate it, but where will the Cold Ones come from if Naggarond and Lustria are ditched?).

infamousme
10-12-2014, 01:22
The southlands.

Smooth Boy
10-12-2014, 02:49
Yeah some lizards already live in the southlands, it's covered in jungle so they can keep the aesthetic. Looks as though they're axing the Americas and what's in the 'Atlantic' to bring all the races together. Maybe Delves will move into what was Italy and be like a maritime power like Venice/Genoa.

Private_SeeD
10-12-2014, 12:44
I've just finished 'The Curse of Khaine' but sadly couldn't get my hands on the 3rd EoT book, I have some DE and HE models left over from when I dabbled in warhammer. after reading all the EoT novels it has peaked my interest in warhammer again. Was wondering if anyone had any ideas in converting a unit of shadowfire guard? in the novel 100 black guard and 100 phoenix guard replaced the white lions as the Phoenix kings personal bodyguard led by Kouran and Caradryan (thought Kouran had a model)

Liber
10-12-2014, 17:08
Absolutely not. I think the rumour of combined books was the outcome of a "telephone game"-style chain of misinterpreted information. We've already been given combined armies in the forms of the Legions rules. Why would GW sell us one book where they could continue selling us two (or even three!)


Awesome post.

The quoted bit is something I've felt for a long time but wasn't able to word correctly, and was somewhat intimidated to disagree with something that every single major wargames information site was proclaiming as gospel truth.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
10-12-2014, 18:22
Awesome post.

The quoted bit is something I've felt for a long time but wasn't able to word correctly, and was somewhat intimidated to disagree with something that every single major wargames information site was proclaiming as gospel truth.

They're all just mindlessly regurgitating the same rumours from the same sources. GW keeps a tight lid on information, and I'm not wholly convinced that the "leaks" we occasionally see aren't managed by a guerrilla marketing firm.

Jind_Singh
10-12-2014, 20:08
Personally I'm excited - my Chaos love affair started back when Realm of Chaos was released and it was neat building warbands, this gives me that back.

Chaos has such a cool look that the range mixes nicely.

As for Undead...

The 2 ranges are miles apart BUT it's much easier to make TK units from VC parts and bitz, my friend took VC skelies and used bow arms from another boxed set to make TK archers, spare parts from the Mortis engine to make the casket, and he's getting a dwarf grudge thrower, putting on scenic basing to fill out the chariot base, and then using that as a screaming skull catapult.

I think that the modelling opportunities are huge with the legions style armies

thesoundofmusica
10-12-2014, 20:20
Awesome post.

The quoted bit is something I've felt for a long time but wasn't able to word correctly, and was somewhat intimidated to disagree with something that every single major wargames information site was proclaiming as gospel truth.

This is what I thought aswell. Much like you I had no real desire to vent my thoughts here only to be stomped into the ground.

Doctor Chewy
10-12-2014, 22:51
If they're smart (not necessarily a given) they'll make both possible - combined arms HE&DE and VC&TK, but also leaving room for "Pure WoC" etc. So if you want to just play Blenderlord Von Carstein's VC army you can, but you can also have a Tomb Prince leading units of Grave Guard. Or whatever! Total freedom, which is the direction they've been trending recently, IMO.

I quite like the idea of adding a Treeman to my HE, and I bet that's exactly what they wanted to happen. Then again, maybe they just want clear half this fantasy ******** from the inventory to free up room for twelve more Space Marine flyers...

stainawarjar
11-12-2014, 04:06
I've just finished 'The Curse of Khaine' but sadly couldn't get my hands on the 3rd EoT book, I have some DE and HE models left over from when I dabbled in warhammer. after reading all the EoT novels it has peaked my interest in warhammer again. Was wondering if anyone had any ideas in converting a unit of shadowfire guard? in the novel 100 black guard and 100 phoenix guard replaced the white lions as the Phoenix kings personal bodyguard led by Kouran and Caradryan (thought Kouran had a model)

What does the Eye of Terror have to do with any of this? :rolleyes:

Seelenhaendler
11-12-2014, 09:55
[...] Why would GW sell us one book where they could continue selling us two (or even three!). [...]


This is a common misconception. The goal of a company (unless they persue a specific strategy) is to maximize profit, not to maximize revenue and especially not to maximize their product line!
The End Times gives GW (probably by design) the perfect excuse to reduce their bloated WFB product line and increase its profitability. Therefore I think it is highly unlikely that they would pass on this unique chance to make/keep WFB economically viable.

OT:
Apart from Chaos Legions all other legion lists take a lot of effort to make them look like a coherent force IMO. A unified color scheme and basing style goes a long way but GW tried hard to make each of their army lines distinct which usually causes different elements to stick out.
If allies are going to play a bigger part in the WFB to come then this is actually not a problem (for GW at least) as it would be ok for units from different forces to look like allied contingents and would give players the opportunity to try out different paint schemes ;)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
11-12-2014, 17:56
This is a common misconception. The goal of a company (unless they persue a specific strategy) is to maximize profit, not to maximize revenue and especially not to maximize their product line!
The End Times gives GW (probably by design) the perfect excuse to reduce their bloated WFB product line and increase its profitability. Therefore I think it is highly unlikely that they would pass on this unique chance to make/keep WFB economically viable.

OT:
Apart from Chaos Legions all other legion lists take a lot of effort to make them look like a coherent force IMO. A unified color scheme and basing style goes a long way but GW tried hard to make each of their army lines distinct which usually causes different elements to stick out.
If allies are going to play a bigger part in the WFB to come then this is actually not a problem (for GW at least) as it would be ok for units from different forces to look like allied contingents and would give players the opportunity to try out different paint schemes ;)

Unless your costs don't scale well then maximizing revenue is usually a pretty good way to maximize profitability as well. The armybook for TK is already written. The product line is thematically distinct from VC. Combining them with VC is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Period. They will languish with a 2-edition outdated book like Bretonnia have before they'll get rolled into an army they don't match with out of the box. Even you said yourself that they take loads of conversion effort to get a coherent look with undead. There is no synergy in combining them.

As for the alleged "bloating" of their product line, that's just plain wrong as well. They're selling an entire game system here, and for a game system to be successful you need choice. 15 factions provides that. Notice that 40K has ... what...19? Yes they've killed factions before, but ones that were thematically problematic or lacking. And really, they haven't killed off any factions for WHFB in like 3 editions of the game.

Once again, to emphasize, the work on Tomb Kings is DONE. They would increase sales by releasing a new book, or some new models, but until then they could just let the product line languish and it would cost them next to nothing. They've already taken them to basically direct sales only.

But why do that when they can cross-sell us stuff instead? That's clearly what ET is for. It's not about cutting viable products they've already paid to produce, but about selling those products to people who might not otherwise buy them. Starting a TK army from scratch is expensive. Buying a few bits and pieces to augment your VC into a Legions army is not. It's about getting us to buy new models that we might not otherwise use, and for very little effort on their part (some very pretty books, that they're probably making profit off of on their own).

Seelenhaendler
11-12-2014, 19:18
Unless your costs don't scale well then maximizing revenue is usually a pretty good way to maximize profitability as well. The armybook for TK is already written. The product line is thematically distinct from VC. Combining them with VC is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Period. They will languish with a 2-edition outdated book like Bretonnia have before they'll get rolled into an army they don't match with out of the box. Even you said yourself that they take loads of conversion effort to get a coherent look with undead. There is no synergy in combining them.

As for the alleged "bloating" of their product line, that's just plain wrong as well. They're selling an entire game system here, and for a game system to be successful you need choice. 15 factions provides that. Notice that 40K has ... what...19? Yes they've killed factions before, but ones that were thematically problematic or lacking. And really, they haven't killed off any factions for WHFB in like 3 editions of the game.

Once again, to emphasize, the work on Tomb Kings is DONE. They would increase sales by releasing a new book, or some new models, but until then they could just let the product line languish and it would cost them next to nothing. They've already taken them to basically direct sales only.

But why do that when they can cross-sell us stuff instead? That's clearly what ET is for. It's not about cutting viable products they've already paid to produce, but about selling those products to people who might not otherwise buy them. Starting a TK army from scratch is expensive. Buying a few bits and pieces to augment your VC into a Legions army is not. It's about getting us to buy new models that we might not otherwise use, and for very little effort on their part (some very pretty books, that they're probably making profit off of on their own).

Don't get me wrong, of course they will try to get rid off their stock. And as you said ET is the perfect sales pitch.
What I wanted to express is that I don't expect new stuff for all pre-End-Times-armies in the future.
Let's assume they reduce the factions down to 5, having only a 1/5th of their player base potentially interested in a new product is bad enough but much more preferable (and enconomically viable) than a 1/15th as of now. Even though allies would broaden the target audience of each product, I would not expect them to support all current factions.
But who knows?! If 40k is any indication and with rules that come with the models, they might even throw the hole factions system overboard and release models that everybody can add to their collection and play with.
Interesting times indeed :)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
11-12-2014, 19:35
Don't get me wrong, of course they will try to get rid off their stock. And as you said ET is the perfect sales pitch.
What I wanted to express is that I don't expect new stuff for all pre-End-Times-armies in the future.
Let's assume they reduce the factions down to 5, having only a 1/5th of their player base potentially interested in a new product is bad enough but much more preferable (and enconomically viable) than a 1/15th as of now. Even though allies would broaden the target audience of each product, I would not expect them to support all current factions.
But who knows?! If 40k is any indication and with rules that come with the models, they might even throw the hole factions system overboard and release models that everybody can add to their collection and play with.
Interesting times indeed :)

Because nobody wants to invest a thousand *********** dollars in a game system to play against the same five armies. That's boring as ****. They are never going to do it.

The factions they've culled lacked a coherent theme or identity. Dogs of War were just a weird motley of oddball units. Chaos Dwarfs were stupid-looking. Kislev was easily replicated with regular Empire models. TK and VC both have their own unique aesthetic, and very loyal camps in both. If TK didn't suck so bad more people would play them, which they pretty clearly know given the changes to their special rules in ET: Nagash.

9th edition is just going to be another rendition of a similar theme: 8th plus some fixes. Compatible with ET and 8th edition books.

Col. Tartleton
11-12-2014, 21:02
Let's not jump the gun and say Kislev has already been removed. Their book is the same age as Bretonnia.

jullevi
11-12-2014, 21:09
Let's not jump the gun and say Kislev has already been removed. Their book is the same age as Bretonnia.

No rules available. No miniatures available. Dead.

Smooth Boy
12-12-2014, 03:14
Kislev's one of those armies which just needed a few units (maybe even just an upgrade sprue) and a mention in the Empire book a la Black Templars. I'm a bit sad they may be gone for good, what a waste.

SuperHappyTime
12-12-2014, 04:00
Kislev deserves the treatment a lot of the 40K space marine factions get (like blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, etc).

A core unit of Empire (maybe an additional core unit), but a number of Specials, Rares, and Heroes that they can access that The Empire can't.

forseer of fates
12-12-2014, 04:17
Erengrad is still there:)

Lord Zarkov
12-12-2014, 11:18
Erengrad is still there:)

You mean 'North 'Ostland' :angel:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Philhelm
12-12-2014, 13:40
You mean 'North 'Ostland' :angel:

You mean Southern Chaos Wasteland? :evilgrin: