PDA

View Full Version : Black Templars



flota
18-12-2014, 23:47
I have a few questions about them.

1)does they follow codex numbers? Or they have more than 1000 battle brothers? Their style is melee combat, so they should be more than 3k at least right?

2)they believe the Emperor as a god? I have conflicting statements about this

3)they hate pskyers right?

Voss
19-12-2014, 00:14
I have a few questions about them.

1)does they follow codex numbers? Or they have more than 1000 battle brothers? Their style is melee combat, so they should be more than 3k at least right?
No.
Yes (the various 'crusades' are all one chapter and not counted very closely, and are often out of touch for periods of time).
...confusing, and not relevant. Numbers aren't tied to combat style.

The short version is that Dorn was happy to follow the Codex, but also wanted to keep some of his marines focused on following the primary mission of Space Marines (going out an exterminating threats to the Imperium). Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and various other successors are the Codex Approved portion of his original chapter, and were his public face of rebuilding after the Heresy. Black Templars set forth to get things done.


2)they believe the Emperor as a god? I have conflicting statements about this
Yes.


3)they hate pskyers right?
Oh, my, yes.

flota
19-12-2014, 00:21
Thank you for your answers.

My questions comes from :
in helsreach and the subsequent novella grimaldus thinks to himself that those who believe the emperor as a god are deluded (ADB owns with the templars) and in eternal crusader the high Marshall can't stop from adoring the god emperor
From that same novella the templars are stated to be 1000 at max and treat their psykers with utmost respect and almost worship. Not even a sign of contempt

Nazguire
19-12-2014, 01:14
No.
Yes (the various 'crusades' are all one chapter and not counted very closely, and are often out of touch for periods of time).
...confusing, and not relevant. Numbers aren't tied to combat style.

The short version is that Dorn was happy to follow the Codex, but also wanted to keep some of his marines focused on following the primary mission of Space Marines (going out an exterminating threats to the Imperium). Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and various other successors are the Codex Approved portion of his original chapter, and were his public face of rebuilding after the Heresy. Black Templars set forth to get things done.


Yes.


Oh, my, yes.

Only to have just about everything you've said thrown out the window with the latest Codex. :( Which sucks, cause their previous background was ace.

@ flota

The newest Codex has them not hating approved psykers, only the ones that are rogue. The Librarian gene stopped appearing in the Black Templars, so they see it as part of the Emperor's plan, etc etc.

Eternal Crusader was written after the release of the new Space Marine Codex, which turned the Black Templars and Iron Hands background on its head.

Helsreach was written when GW had a clue regarding background consistency.

flota
19-12-2014, 02:53
Only to have just about everything you've said thrown out the window with the latest Codex. :( Which sucks, cause their previous background was ace.

@ flota

The newest Codex has them not hating approved psykers, only the ones that are rogue. The Librarian gene stopped appearing in the Black Templars, so they see it as part of the Emperor's plan, etc etc.

Eternal Crusader was written after the release of the new Space Marine Codex, which turned the Black Templars and Iron Hands background on its head.

Helsreach was written when GW had a clue regarding background consistency.
The new codex fluff sucks then.
That was what maked the templars unique. How in the warp name can keep the "eternal crusade" now?

The old fluff made sense, same with the GK

kamedake88
19-12-2014, 04:44
Actually the old fluff made less sense then most think. The Black Templars have always been the "in-universe" answer to the "religious fanatic" trope except, according to ambiguous and differing written accounts, they still saw the emperor as a man. From a logical and historical context it made very little sense that a group of the most zealous warrior monks of the 40k universe, who's background was lifted from the most fanatical of all Christian orders, would also not see the object of their worship as divine. Also one must remember that what we today, as a society shaped in part by the euro-christian tradition, see as and associate with Godhood differs vastly from the in universe view of the Adeptus Minustorum.

The Emperor by his nature was not the creator god of the human race, rather he was a divine being walking among men in man form and when Horus slew him, he regained his divinity by some sort of post mortem soul releasing ascension. If I'm not mistaken this view is supported by current writings ranging from The Emperors Gift to the Space Marine Battles Novel; The Legion of the Damned. Hell the Black Templars are not the only Astartes Chapter to the Emperor as a god either. To my knowledge the Red Hunters (read: Inquisitorial sock puppets) and The Fire Angels are among the, possibly many, Astartes Chapters that believe in the God_Emperor thing,

A lot about the Astartes, the wider Imperium and the nature of the Emperor interred is quite poorly covered by the writers at the Black Library. Given that as a group they are largely more concerned about which heretic gets what chambered bolt shell rather than the ecumenical dealings of a largely non militant section of the Imperium and it's views. The writers at Black Library that is.

As for this long time 40k player, I for one am glad that the little bit of unnecessary complexity and ambiguity has been put to rest.

flota
19-12-2014, 13:39
The templars were zealous for the crusade ideals of the manifest destiny of mankind.
Sigismund shows that.

Also their numbers, in the old fluff they were around 5k or more but since they were all spread out it didn't matter, they also suffer from high casualty rate and you start to wonder how is possible for the blood angels and templars to still exist after 10k years
The numbers doesn't fit

jareddm3
19-12-2014, 14:28
The difference is being a fleet-based chapter allows the Black Templars to continuously take in new recruits. The Imperial Fists take a similar approach only not to such an extreme.

They recognize other chapters that might worship the God-Emperor but see these chapter's veneration as lesser to their own, seeing as these younger chapters had never truly lived in a galaxy in which the God-Emperor walked.

On the topic of chapter size, allow me to quote Guy Haley, the only author to write Black Templar since the new codex,
"I understand it is a company decision, not the decision of the codex writers. They could just about manage that number of crusades, as some of them are very small, a squad or two. As you’ll discover later. I am writing a lot of Black Templar fiction, and that will be addressed in there. And personally I think it only increases their devotion – they’re trying to conquer the galaxy with a thousand men!"

flota
19-12-2014, 18:15
They lose 200 astartes and 500 initiates in armaggedon (don't remember how to spell it)
In a few months of war.
And they expect us to believe they can sustain that rate with 1000 astartes?
I just don't understand the changes, that's all.

Razios
19-12-2014, 18:27
They lose 200 astartes and 500 initiates in armaggedon (don't remember how to spell it)
In a few months of war.
And they expect us to believe they can sustain that rate with 1000 astartes?
I just don't understand the changes, that's all.

we are taking of armaggedon, the power of the ork in that invasion was beyond anything saw from the ork since Ullanor. the fact they only lose 700 of them show their streght

Paul Nexus
19-12-2014, 19:34
They lose 200 astartes and 500 initiates in armaggedon (don't remember how to spell it)
In a few months of war.
And they expect us to believe they can sustain that rate with 1000 astartes?
I just don't understand the changes, that's all.

Have they re-written black templars to have a standard chapter size? I have only borrowed codex marines for a brief scan

jareddm3
19-12-2014, 19:49
They're not codex size but there's fewer of them than the Space Wolves, and the Space Wolves have been confirmed to max out at 2400.

flota
19-12-2014, 20:38
Guy haley (or whatever) States plainly as the high Marshall that the templars are 1000 marine strong at full capacity
In eternal crusader

kamedake88
19-12-2014, 21:14
There is a quote attributed to Warren Buffet, "I don't invest in companies that are so simple to run an idiot can run it, because eventually one will." Then again I pay about as much attention to the official-ness of GW background as I do the Chinese dog meat trade.


Guy haley (or whatever) States plainly as the high Marshall that the templars are 1000 marine strong at full capacity
In eternal crusader

From what I recall from the book, the Armageddon Crusade numbered 1000 Initiates strong, not the entire chapter.

I'm afraid the only way to get a succinct answer on the subject is to ask our dear Dead Blue Clown, since he wrote the two seminal works on the chapter.

Nazguire
19-12-2014, 22:58
Part of the Black Templars appeal was their historic disregard for the Codex reformation, and their dogged adherence to the old Legion way of organisation and war, with a bit of real world Templar inspiration thrown in.

Without trying to derail the thread (no doubt I will), it's a bit of a short sighted decision to completely overturn years of Black Templar background (and Iron Hands for that matter) like that. Doesn't make much difference to the players, I guess, if they're 5000 or 1000. Worshipping the Emperor as a God is only the logical way to take their background, but their hatred for psykers being completely reformed and negotiated is also questionable.

jareddm3
19-12-2014, 23:29
Worshipping the Emperor as a God is only the logical way to take their background, but their hatred for psykers being completely reformed and negotiated is also questionable.To be fair, given that every astropath has stood before the light of the God-Emperor directly, something no Black Templar could attest to doing, I'm coming around to the veneration of astropaths. I do wish their hatred of psykers at least included non-soul bound Imperial psykers, such as sanctioned psykers and Astartes Librarians, as it makes sense that only those who personally stood before the God-Emperor would be worthy of the Black Templar's acceptance.


I'm afraid the only way to get a succinct answer on the subject is to ask our dear Dead Blue Clown, since he wrote the two seminal works on the chapter. Or...you could use the quote I posted earlier, directly from Guy Haley's blog. With an additional quote with clearer context,
"In answer to your query, the number of Black Templars has now become just over a thousand, sometimes more, sometimes less. It’s a change in the lore. In order to accommodate the older mentions I have their numbers being more flexible than that of other chapters, but not to such extremes as in the past."

Source here: https://guyhaley.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/im-baaaacccckkk/#comment-5777

kamedake88
19-12-2014, 23:39
Don't know how I missed the link and your quote. All I have to say is FFS! The monkeys officially have the typewriter.

jareddm3
19-12-2014, 23:44
I do respect him saying it was a company decision. Makes me wonder what other lore changes in the past were company changes, rather than author's ideas.

Voss
19-12-2014, 23:47
Only to have just about everything you've said thrown out the window with the latest Codex. :(
Only the hate all psykers part.
Emperor as God is explicit, and Chapter size is very fuzzy indeed, as it stresses the dispersed nature of the Crusades.

kamedake88
19-12-2014, 23:49
I'm almost to the point of think most are beyond caring what GW's official line on anything is. Who is in charge of lore and design? Whoever this person is clearly has oversight on these things. I wonder if he is aware that the vast majority of people into the background of 40k, would like to see him have his finger nails ripped off?

Nazguire
20-12-2014, 00:04
I'm almost to the point of think most are. Who is in charge of lore and design? Whoever this person is clearly has oversight on these things. I wonder if he is aware that the vast majority of people into the background of 40k, would like to see him have his finger nails ripped off?

He probably is aware, and probably doesn't care. They'd have good reasons for changing it, you'd imagine. Or they don't place as much emotional investment in the background as the fans do.

flota
20-12-2014, 00:21
It's not only emotional investment.
It's something that made in-universe sense into something that does not. I couldn't care less if the templars weren't so in love with close combat (that's one of the reasons for their high casualty rate) but they are

So apart from space wolves now all chapters really want to be ultramarines...

It gives me chuckles, at one point the high marshall thinks to himself that they don't follow much the codex, then he recounts that his templars are 1000 battle brothers, so much for not following the codex...

kamedake88
20-12-2014, 00:35
It's not only emotional investment.
It's something that made in-universe sense into something that does not. I couldn't care less if the templars weren't so in love with close combat (that's one of the reasons for their high casualty rate) but they are

So apart from space wolves now all chapters really want to be ultramarines...

It gives me chuckles, at one point the high marshall thinks to himself that they don't follow much the codex, then he recounts that his templars are 1000 battle brothers, so much for not following the codex...

Thank you. It's logical fallacy after logical fallacy of late in the warhammer background. Something, that to me, shows a complete lack of attention to detail, incompetence or both. Lack of variety is one thing and makes things extremely stale but when you ask someone to hold to opposing notions as the same you a defining madness.

Tastyfish
20-12-2014, 00:40
The Black Templars numbers only make sense when they're all too far apart to really pay attention to, soon as you commit 1000 initiates to a very public warzone (under the leadership of a 1st founding Chapter master of a different lineage) whilst also carrying out very visible operations elsewhere, you're going to get some very important people starting to ask questions.

Black Templars might have reached much larger numbers in the past, but at the moment they've probably been told by the High Marshal to keep a better track of their operational strength - and not to not necessarily replace all their losses. It'd explain how you end up with a few crusades now consisting of just a few squads. It was a company level thing, but now that fresh geneseed is being more closely monitored they should really report back and merge with another crusade, but honour compels them to finish what they started no matter what.

kamedake88
20-12-2014, 03:08
I like the rationalization and what you said is not too far fetched but I think many of the people who read this will agree with me in saying F GW and the recent revision NEVER HAPPENED! :shifty:

flota
20-12-2014, 03:57
Agree with both of you.
I'll will continue with the past numbers (same with the GK) and accept the new psyker love along with the emperor's worship.

BTW, dead blue clown wrote helsreach, blood and fire, before this mess, in those books grimaldus himself believes that anyone who worships the Emperor as a god is a fool

kamedake88
20-12-2014, 05:21
And Talos eats babies ,I know.:evilgrin: I was specifically going to ask him how he saw the Templars pre wave of stupidity 2014, numbers wise.

Killgore
20-12-2014, 06:46
Perhaps as the 41st millennia draws to a close, the High Marshal was able to take stock of the state of the chapters resources and manpower and decided to focus on key conflicts?

The rate of attrition might have been far greater than expected by having smaller spread out crusades, leading to a loss of manpower and warships.

Best to cap it around the 1k number for awhile till the chapter can rebuilt its assets for another surge into the guts of the enemy!

Lord Damocles
20-12-2014, 17:08
Remember that the idea that the Templars were five or six thousand strong, was presented as 'if certain accounts are to be believed...' in their 4th ed, Codex (pg.8) - which needn't have been at all accurate.

Tygre
20-12-2014, 22:01
Since they were 2nd founding, they would have started with the same nominal strength as the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists.

kamedake88
20-12-2014, 22:49
I suppose the evidence is now pointing towards the community experiencing a massive Neckbeadism of grasping at straws. I've gone back and looked at all the background I have seen of them over the years and there is literally nothing even remotely concrete stating that they are or have been above codex numbers, Which in my mind ranges from 900 marines to 1500 with specialists, depending on the background and author cited. In fact the background hints more at them being so utterly so effective at what they do it gives an outside observer the impression that they have many more times their number.

ryng_sting
22-12-2014, 18:22
Except where it said they were probably between 5k and 6k, but spread all around the galaxy. Not much, but there's nothing even remotely concrete they were standard codex size either.

Needless change.

Lord Damocles
23-12-2014, 10:59
Except where it said they were probably between 5k and 6k, but spread all around the galaxy.
Where did it say that? Becuase that doesn't appear to be what Codex: Black Templars actually said.

baphomael
23-12-2014, 20:44
The new codex fluff sucks then.
That was what maked the templars unique. How in the warp name can keep the "eternal crusade" now?

The old fluff made sense, same with the GK

The thing about having a completely rabid hatred of all psykers would make their whole 'crusading' thing a little difficult - how do you get from A to B if you've just purged your long range communications and navigator?

Fen
23-12-2014, 20:50
The thing about having a completely rabid hatred of all psykers would make their whole 'crusading' thing a little difficult - how do you get from A to B if you've just purged your long range communications and navigator?
This

I understand the number change might be......strange.....But the psykers one make completly sense

The old templars would not take the field togheter with an allied psyker..Then what about the mutant psyker sitting in the middle of each and every ship they use?Or the astropaths flying inside those same ships to manage comunications?Would they spit in the face of an imperial fists' librarian?Not even starting on the Emperor....And so on...

flota
23-12-2014, 21:57
They used to grudgingly accept the navigators and the astropaths. Now it's full of reverence

jareddm3
23-12-2014, 22:14
They have stood before/interact with the Astronomicon, the most holy manifestation of the God-Emperor on a regular basis. If anything, I wouldn't include IG sanctioned psykers and space marine librarians in their reverence because their usage is sanctioned not by the God-Emperor, but by man.

ryng_sting
23-12-2014, 22:31
Where did it say that? Becuase that doesn't appear to be what Codex: Black Templars actually said.


First codex.

Longstrider
23-12-2014, 23:19
Space Marine Chapter numbers at ~1000 has always been stupid. No less so in the case of Black Templars on grounds of being assaulty (Minotaurs, Blood Angels, etc.), on grounds of just not caring that much (Space Wolves, Astral Claws at ~3k), on being fleet based (Dark Angels, Imperial Fists) and on and on. So whatever. Just multiply every single reference you see to the number of Space Marines by 10, and the universe starts to be a little less weird. Multiply it by 100, and it starts to be almost plausible.

Anyhow, where is that quote about them being higher in number from the 4th edition Codex?

Also, importantly: It's a bit silly for people who liked the 4th ed Codex or the 3rd ed minidex to be so indignant about it all; GW's always done retcons. The 2nd ed. Codex: Ultramarines (which was the one to cover every chapter that wasn't SW, BA, or DA) had the Black Templars as a bog-standard codex chapter, with their company colour being reflected in their chestplate wing colour. So the whole crusading thing everyone seems to hold up was a retcon. I think it was better, mind you, but all I'm saying is, think about whether the change to their approach to psykers makes for a better story, rather than whether it's a retcon or not.

Lord Damocles
24-12-2014, 12:42
First codex.
And which 'first codex' is that?

I assume that you're not referring to the 4th edition Codex: Black Templars, which did not say that, as I've already shown above.

jareddm3
24-12-2014, 13:00
Maybe he means Codex:Armageddon.

Lord Damocles
24-12-2014, 13:22
...which doesn't mention the size of the Chapter at all.


The best information we have to go on regarding Chapter size (from the 4th edition Codex: Black Templars) is all in-universe speculation ('If certain accounts are to be believed...' (pg.8); and '...suspected Black Templar dispositions over the centuries with an estimate of the number of warriors who fought in each one' (inside back cover) (and in this instance, we don't know when the illustrated crusades occurred, so forces from one may also be counted in others)).


An in-universe speculation/suspicion turning out to be untrue/inaccurate is very far away from the background being altered.

jareddm3
24-12-2014, 13:25
Just a guess. Wasn't around back then.

Nazguire
25-12-2014, 07:07
...which doesn't mention the size of the Chapter at all.


The best information we have to go on regarding Chapter size (from the 4th edition Codex: Black Templars) is all in-universe speculation ('If certain accounts are to be believed...' (pg.8); and '...suspected Black Templar dispositions over the centuries with an estimate of the number of warriors who fought in each one' (inside back cover) (and in this instance, we don't know when the illustrated crusades occurred, so forces from one may also be counted in others)).


An in-universe speculation/suspicion turning out to be untrue/inaccurate is very far away from the background being altered.

I know what you're saying, and it makes sense, but the authors would not have put that in there if it wasn't for the purpose of discussion and that it was a possibility.

Lord Damocles
25-12-2014, 09:31
It was a possibility.

The problem was (/is) that it wasn't discussed as such - rather it was taken as an absolute truth, which wasn't how it had been presented at all.