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Not Applicable
20-12-2014, 05:36
What do people mean when they say a list is min/maxed and is it good or bad?

3eland
20-12-2014, 06:55
It just means their unit is "minimum" or "maximum" of what they can take.

Like a min Tac unit is 5 Marines. In some cases it can explain gear too, so a min Tac unit can mean 5 Marines with basic gear.

It is neither good nor bad.

Vaktathi
20-12-2014, 07:15
A min/max'd unit is one that is is small/cheap as it can be with the maximum amount of capabilities. The great example for a long time, when tactical squads did not need to be full sized to take a heavy weapon, was a 5man squad with a plasma gun and a lascannon. All the offensive firepower of a maximum sized squad, but at a minimum cost. A more recent example would be taking barebones unupgraded Dire Avenger units in order to take Wave Serpents as cheap as possible.

Not Applicable
20-12-2014, 07:46
Thanks guys I can't see how that could be a bad thing though. If a unit is allowed to take something then why would someone be upset if you optimised you unit by taking what you want.

Vaktathi
20-12-2014, 08:15
Thanks guys I can't see how that could be a bad thing though. If a unit is allowed to take something then why would someone be upset if you optimised you unit by taking what you want.It's usually done in a way that's contrary to the lore, and very copy-paste-ey. Sometimes its fine, but other times its seen as exploitative in a way that wasn't really intended (e.g. the Wave Serpent example, the DA's really shouldn't be there just to unlock the Wave Serpent, the Wave Serpent should be there to transport and support the Dire Avengers).

Not Applicable
20-12-2014, 08:41
Yep I get what you're saying but since I don't know about eldar I'll put it in terms of Dark Angels.

min/maxing would be:
If i wanted max meltaguns I'd take weak, points effective HQ's in cheap power armour like 2 pyskers at 65 a piece and then 2 command squads 5 men with 5 melta guns in each. So I'd be taking the command squads not as body guards for the hq's but for their tank busting ability when 10 pour out of razorbacks ready to melta stuff.

Scammel
20-12-2014, 09:56
min/maxing would be:
If i wanted max meltaguns I'd take weak, points effective HQ's in cheap power armour like 2 pyskers at 65 a piece and then 2 command squads 5 men with 5 melta guns in each. So I'd be taking the command squads not as body guards for the hq's but for their tank busting ability when 10 pour out of razorbacks ready to melta stuff.

...Ish. It's not always about getting simply the most of any given weapon or unit, but doing so in the optimum way. The Dire Avengers example isn't a bad one, minimising the amount of 'excess' you need in order to max out on an appropriate number of Wave Serpents. Also see cases where you purchase the minimum number of squad members that unlocks an additional weapon slot, perhaps purchasing the sixth guy (and no more) to get the extra Plasma Gun - Plague Marines are popular because they always have two weapon slots so can be fielded in as small units as possible to squeeze in more Melta/Plasma across the force. Or instances where you choose only a pair of completed un-upgraded Troops choices to field as much of other slots as possible.

It's minimising excess whilst maximising output. It typically results in lists that don't much resemble a balanced, varied force like those that appear in the artwork and photos.

Not Applicable
20-12-2014, 10:59
Right, got it, minimising excess while maximising output.

So in a ultra competitive field that would be the norm but in a more easy going setting, where its all about getting together and just having a bit of fun, the guy that brings his min/max'd list is going to be winning but maybe looked apon as a bit of a over enthusiastic sort.

Cool, thanks for helping out guys.

T10
20-12-2014, 11:55
One man's idea of "abuse" is another man's idea of "fun". :) If you are concerned about wether or not you are trying to mini/max, then here's a rule of thumb:

1. Is it a unit you don't really want?
2. Is it a unit you can't swap for a unit you actually like?
3. Is it a unit you don't want to drop altogether?
4. Is it a unit you are taking at the bare minimum with no upgrades for any models?
5. Are you taking multiples of this unit?

If you answer "yes" to all of these questions, congrats: You definetly have the "minimum" part of mini/maxing going for you.

I would assume you are also going for some kind of "maximum" achievement as well, but it is often hard to tell what is best these days. Loads of vehicles? Monstrous creatures? Flyers? Anti-flyers? Though Internet Wisdom will surely identify certain units as particularly desireable (such as the wave serpent), but your own gaming milieu and experience will be the deciding factor. If you maximise your Anti-Tank capabilities one game, your opponent may choose to maximiase his infantry body count in the next.

One might say that the smart thing to do is to go for a balanced "take-on-all-comers" approach, but really: Isn't that just a different kind of mini/maxing? :)

-T10

Not Applicable
20-12-2014, 13:26
I just realised I'm not minimising. I have Sammael as my WL so ravenwing assault squads take up way more than the minimum. I guess this means im missing out on something at the top. Im not sure if thats necessarily a bad thing though.

SirBlackmane
20-12-2014, 15:07
I just realised I'm not minimising. I have Sammael as my WL so ravenwing assault squads take up way more than the minimum. I guess this means im missing out on something at the top. Im not sure if thats necessarily a bad thing though.
Say what? Taking Sammael is an excellent way to min/max. He makes all those Ravenwing squads troops, minimizing points spent on tactical squads to unlock fast attack units. Of course, it is also very fluffy, but you're definitely not above the accusation.

I still don't think you quite understand the term, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It comes from pen and paper RPGs where, instead of role playing, some people would minimize the points spent in non combat stats and skills, and maximize the combat effective ones. The general result was a character rather like Lurch, tough and imposing, but useless in any conversation involving words with more than one syllable. Which was fine, if your priority was clearing the dungeon. It was a problem if you were trying to interact meaningfully with the townsfolk or your fellow players.

As stated above, in Warhammer, it usually means avoiding units and upgrades that are sub optimal and spamming "the good stuff". It's a bit more of a circumstantial thing as we are trying to win within a points limit, but it generally refers to the "net list", or one devoid of fluff and stocked up on supposedly rare crack units. The accusation can be leveled at any winning list, but really only applies when you're egregiously spamming the most OP unit possible.

Haravikk
20-12-2014, 15:23
As with most things, getting the most out of a unit or character isn't a bad thing in isolation, it's only a problem when they're abused to take multiples of a particularly powerful unit, or otherwise built an "optimal" list (assuming your only goal is to win at the exclusion of anyone else having fun or you getting to play ever again).

There's nothing wrong with making a unit as good as you can for a particular task, but most people balance this in their army by taking stuff they just want to take, or that happen to have, regardless of whether it's especially powerful. It's tough to say really, because I have a Deathwing army that maximises the number of terminator units (to fit the theme), and can hit very hard, but at the same time it has significant weaknesses as it's badly outnumbered against most enemies, and my main heavy firepower comes from Dreadnoughts which aren't exactly optimal units since they're taking down fairly easily these days. I also tend to mix things up with some Ravenwing or Greenwing (tactical squads or scouts usually) so I'm not usually so committed to terminators that a player ill-equipped to deal with them is going to have a terrible game.

Ravariel
20-12-2014, 23:45
http://pvponline.com/comic/2014/12/16/stat-check

In the context of D&D, but relevant.

Not Applicable
21-12-2014, 01:13
Okay so to avoid being a min/maxer I should include some troops? Maybe some camo clad snipers scouts on the hill supported by a couple of land speeders typhoons and a dark shroud. Fluffy cause they'd be calling in the deep striking, drop podding, out flanking units. Not a waste of points because they put out a decent amount of firepower.

HelloKitty
21-12-2014, 02:33
Min/max means many things to many people. You'll never get a clear answer.

The definition i use is that min/max is the same as powergaming or powerlisting or optimizing. Its a style of play that involves minimizing your weaknesses and maximizing your strengths - which seems like common sense. The problem arises because most game systems have flawed math and min/max is really about exploiting bad math somewhere in the system to get an edge, and forsaking narrative representation of your force. The word is also used in card games as well as roleplaying games and means basically the same thing.

As a style of play it is neither good nor bad. Some groups love doing it, others hate it. The problem usually stems from a group of people that favor different things, or playing a random person who is against that style of play and you like it - the playstyle conflict clashes and peoples' feelings can get hurt.

Some people feel that the words min/maxer, powergamer, etc, are bad words and you shouldn't use them to label someone. Others embrace it as a way of playing a game.

to avoid min/maxing if that is your goal:
* avoid using popular netlists
* include an element/s in your force that is/are not optimal
* avoid spamming the most powerful elements of your army book

Good luck!

druchii
21-12-2014, 02:59
What do people mean when they say a list is min/maxed and is it good or bad?

A good example of min maxing would be:
Flying Hive tyrant, devourers
Flying Hive tyrant, devourers

3 rippers
3 rippers

Flying Hive tyrant, devourers
Flying Hive tyrant, devourers

3 rippers
3 rippers

Flying Hive Tyrant, devourers
10 gargoyles

Essentially that list takes the minimum requirements to grab as many Hive Tyrants as possible. Some people would say that it's a lame, cheesy list, some would tell you it's perfectly fine in all environments, some would say it's acceptable in a tournament setting.

Kitty is correct that you'll get a lot of variation in the idea of what min/maxing is, but it usually refers to a list that has multiple small units in order to maximize the effectiveness of said units.

Another good example was the old Blood Angels list that consisted of 6x5 assault marines in razorbacks with las/plas (so the assault marines are to maximise the razorbacks' plasma/lascannon shots)with three baal predators and three normal predators (usually with lascannons or autocannons+lascannons) and two librarians with the bubble of 5++. The list jammed as many fast, av13 vehicles into the same list, supported by a bunch of speedy las/plas shots and psykers that threw out a huge radius of invuln saves for the vehicles.

The lists can be perfectly fluffy, but a lot of internet people tend to either hate or extol repetitive, spamy lists. I mean, technically a deathwing list with belial, and the rest of the points filled with TH/SS terminators with cyclone missile launchers would be a min/max list, but it'd be terrible. I wonder if it would draw as much ire as the 5 dire avenger wave serpent spam that seems to win tournaments? They follow the same format, but the effectiveness of each list is vastly different...

d

shabbadoo
21-12-2014, 03:41
Okay so to avoid being a min/maxer I should include some troops? Maybe some camo clad snipers scouts on the hill supported by a couple of land speeders typhoons and a dark shroud. Fluffy cause they'd be calling in the deep striking, drop podding, out flanking units. Not a waste of points because they put out a decent amount of firepower.

You may wish to review some of the tactica here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/6-dark-angels/ If you post what models you have (*and how they are equipped*) in a thread there, people will give you lots of suggestions as to what you can do with them. While some Dark Angels units are surely better than others, not everything in the game is achieved simply by taking units that give you the most bang for your buck (but it is not a negligible factor). One of the past Troops units that many players of marines spammed was the "las-plas squad", meaning a the smallest (5-man) Tactical Squad kitted out with a lascannon and plasma gun. A cheap, objective-holding, firebase unit. People would often take 2-4 of these units, and then fill out the bulk of their army list with more specialized "hammer" type assault units, or heavy firepower units. I don't see many people run Tactical Squads as 5-man combat squads, where the heavy weapon combat squad lends fire support while the (vet.) sergeant and special weapon combat squad functions as a "take and hold" unit (either combat squad could be supported with a Razorback dedicated transport). Taking any unit in its smallest number and piling on as many extremely effective wargear options as you can is the standard meaning of the the term "min/maxing". For example: a min/maxed Ravenwing Assault Squadron might look something like this:

Ravenwing Assault Squadron (3 bikes): Sgt. w/combi-melta & meltabombs, 2 bikes with meltaguns; 1 attack bike with multi-melta.

The unit is of minimum size, with particular upgrades to increase its threat level based on how one wishes to use the unit (vehicle killers). Generally speaking, min/maxing results in more efficient/threatening units for the points, but it doesn't always also mean cheap, or completely efficient. For example, this sort of unit is hugely inefficient at absorbing casualties. Every casualty taken by such a unit removes a huge percentage of the unit's effectiveness. Min-maxing can often be a detriment; especially in larger point games where numbers are nearly always telling.

As to calling in Deepstriking/Teleporting units, the units you just listed- Ravenwing Land Speeders, Dark shrouds, Dark Angels Scouts- NONE of them have teleport homers or locator beacons, meaning they will not be calling in any sort of Deepstriking/Teleporting units. The only models in the Dark Angels army that have teleport homers are Ravenwing Bikes, Ravenwing Attack Bikes, and the jetbike version of Sammael (they come standard with teleport homers). Note that the land speeder version of Sammael does NOT come with a teleport homer. The only Dark Angels unit that has a locator beacon is the Drop Pod, but only if you upgrade it to have that option.

T10
21-12-2014, 12:32
I just realised I'm not minimising. I have Sammael as my WL so ravenwing assault squads take up way more than the minimum. I guess this means im missing out on something at the top. Im not sure if thats necessarily a bad thing though.


Say what? Taking Sammael is an excellent way to min/max.

I really want to disagree with this, but I can't. :)

-T10

Not Applicable
21-12-2014, 15:23
Thanks for replies.

I have a feeling that building an unbeatable list with the dark angels might be harder than it would be for some other factions.

I hear of people taking eldar/tau armies, are they the true min/maxers?

If I stick to my codex can I really be called a min/maxer?

Ravariel
21-12-2014, 15:41
Probably not, to be honest. DA don't really have a spammable OP unit like Eldar (Waveserpents) or Tau (Riptides) or Marines (White scar troop bikers).

Take Eldar. They have the single best unit in the game in the Waveserpent, and it's probably not even close. And as a DT you can get it for a tiny little troop tax. Add in a wraithknight or two (probably among the top 10 best units in the game) and it just gets ridiculous as you all but negate any gun in your opponent's army below S7. Luckily they're the only ones who can do that, but a min/maxer only builds lists of similar craziness.

If I were you and you wanted to avoid min/maxing... just play with units you like, and try not to take more than 2 copies of anything that's not a troops choice.

SirBlackmane
21-12-2014, 19:22
Thanks for replies.

I have a feeling that building an unbeatable list with the dark angels might be harder than it would be for some other factions.

I hear of people taking eldar/tau armies, are they the true min/maxers?

If I stick to my codex can I really be called a min/maxer?

Yes, the Dark Angels generally have a harder time than most other chapters. That said, almost every codex has that one build tucked away that is far and away grossly superior to anything else in the faction. Wolves have WS5 Thunderwolf spam, Marines have a CM BikeStar, Blood Angels now apparently have Astorath+ Jump Death Company, and Chaos Marines have the bloody turkey (which is still good post nerf). For DA it's Ravenwing.

A fluffy Ravenwing list (written right) is arguably a min max list, but it depends on your playstyle, and also the power level of those you play against. It's not necessarily bad if your opponents have ultra competitive lists, but if you're being called this because you keep mopping the floor with them then consider throwing in a few more "fun" or sub-optimal units to keep things enjoyable. If you're being called this and you aren't winning regularly then just ignore them (or min max a bit more until you are getting regular wins).


Probably not, to be honest. DA don't really have a spammable OP unit like Eldar (Waveserpents) or Tau (Riptides) or Marines (White scar troop bikers).Tau and Eldar are special because almost every other unit in their codexes is above the average in power level.

Everyone goes on about how "inferior" Ravenwing bikers are to White Scars, but they can make smaller squads and combat squads, and come with Teleport Homers and Scout for bringing in Deathwing. The true min/max build for DA is Sammy, a PlasmaStar command squad with Dakka banner, and as many Ravenwing bikers loaded with special weapons as you can squeeze in clustered around to spew out masses of bolter fire. It's not the be all and end all of lists, but it's really hard to beat unprepared.

Not Applicable
22-12-2014, 01:12
Thanks once again, with all these replies I got a great idea of what's what and what needs to be done.

wyvirn
22-12-2014, 02:39
A min/maxer is someone who you lose to whom you don't like.

Freman Bloodglaive
22-12-2014, 06:07
A normal Ravenwing list is fairly min/max without trying.

Sammael on jetbike
Librarian on bike with power field generator
Command squad, max size, grenade launcher, Banner of Devastation, apothecary
Command squad, max size, grenade launcher, apothecary
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
3 Bikes, two melta, combi-melta, attack bike multi-melta
Dark Shroud
Land Speeder Squadron typhoon upgrades
Land Speeder Squadron typhoon upgrades

Command squads are used instead of Black Knights because they don't use a slot, giving you room for Land Speeders and Dark Shroud. The Shroud is there to improve your jink saves (obviously). The bikes take melta because you have lots of plasma on the command squads. Grenade launchers allow you to rad grenade units down to toughness 3, so you can instant death them with your plasma talons, or toughness 4 so you can instant death them with melta guns or krak missiles (this is your only real counter to Thunderwolf Cavalry). Toughness 3 units taken down to toughness 2 also hate frag missiles and toughness 2 swarms go pop to bolters. Banner of Devastation does the usual thing with a mass of bike units massed around it, who also benefit from the power field on the Librarian so you don't have to jink too much.

The army doesn't have anything in the way of anti-air, but that's pretty much not an option in pure Dark Angels lists anyway.

Eldartank
22-12-2014, 06:10
I remember the 3rd Edition Blood Angels Codex. That one seemed deliberately designed for min/max potential. Some of the particulars were the rule for randomly rolling your Death Company (a unit that was insanely powerful and almost unkillable in close combat), all Blood Angels getting +1 to Strength and Initiative when assaulting, the "supercharged engines" on Blood Angel vehicles allowing them to move up to 24 inches in 1 turn (coupled with the ability of Blood Angels to assault out of vehicles no matter how far they moved - 1st turn move and assault, anyone?). Then there was the fact that when you rolled for Death Company for each unit at the start of the game (and you were almost guaranteed to have at least one member of each unit join the Death Company), you could choose the Veteran Sargeant because any Veteran Sareant who joined the Death Company got a power weapon for power fist for free even if that wasn't originally taken for that Veteran Sargeant. So you could have craploads of 5-man Squads with no upgrades, each with a Veteran Sargeant with no upgrades, and wind up with a large Death Company with lots of free power fists and power weapons. Oh, and did I mention that the Death Company could also have jump packs for free?

I once made a 1500 point joke army with my Blood Angels (perfectly game-legal, mind you), that had 5 Tactical Squads (Veteran Sargeant and 4 Marines) with no upgrades, all in Rhinos. A Chaplain with Jump Pack (the only Jump Pack I actually paid points for) with a Death Company with free jump packs (which would greatly increase in size when I started the random rolling for Death Company). My HQ was a Sanguinary High Priest (a nearly unkillable super-powerful close combat juggernaught that made any unit he led even more powerful in close combat), accompanied by a Honor Guard all armed with power weapons, all with a Rhino. The way the game rules worked, this min/maxed army could potentially wipe out just about any other army in two turns simply by running through everything in close combat. I never actually played this particular min/maxed army list, because I just wasn't that much of a jerk.

I did get quite a laugh when one guy who borrowed my army for a local tournament found that list and decided to play it against my objections. His very first match was against a young kid with an Imperial Guard army who was playing only his second or third game ever. The young kid got the first turn, lobbed a shell with his basilisk, and one-shotted the Rhino with with the Sanguinary High Priest & Honor Guard **(yep, in points value, he destroyed around 1 third of that Blood Angels army in a single shot). On the Blood Angels player's turn, he got some bad dice rolls and was only able to get one of his 5-man squads (now reduced to 3 men because of 2 joining the Death Company) into Close Combat. The next turn, the kid fired his Basilisk and one-shotted the entire Death Company! Game was pretty much over after that. ;)

** In 3rd Edition, if you scored a penetrating hit with an ordinance template and rolled a 6, the vehicle was obliterated and any units in the vehicle were automatically killed with no armor saves or invulnerable saves allowed.

Not Applicable
22-12-2014, 08:10
^^^ I dont think i could bring a super mega power list to play against a kid. Having kids of my own and an old dad that likes to play chess my competitive spirt is diminished in certain company but I still enjoy smashing some people (mostly mates I've known my whole life).

That's a great min/max list Freman. Off the top of my head about 2095pts. I have most of those units, just need 1 more knight for a 2nd 5 man command squad, more rwas bikes and rwas attack bikes. I know everyone raves about the bolter banner but really I like the extra range of the SoF and the hit and run banner (rwas vet sgts with Pf get 3 hits on the charge). The big plus is it doesn't look like your trying too hard, you can spread out a bit and after you rad grenade stuff you get so many more shots at instakilling t5 stuff.

tneva82
22-12-2014, 08:16
Command squads are used instead of Black Knights because they don't use a slot, giving you room for Land Speeders and Dark Shroud.

Have you thought about having land speeders, dark shroud AND black knights? Not sure on points but slot wise you have slot to spare.

Not Applicable
22-12-2014, 08:45
Have you thought about having land speeders, dark shroud AND black knights? Not sure on points but slot wise you have slot to spare.

It's good to have the land speeders each in their own FA slot for the sake of jinking and of course the shroud takes a FA slot.

If you have a rwas bike squad of 6 then a land speeder can count as a rwas unit (counts as a troop unit instead of a fa but doesn't use a slot).

tneva82
22-12-2014, 09:03
It's good to have the land speeders each in their own FA slot for the sake of jinking and of course the shroud takes a FA slot.

If you have a rwas bike squad of 6 then a land speeder can count as a rwas unit (counts as a troop unit instead of a fa but doesn't use a slot).

Yeah but you list has 6 fast attack slots but are using 3. Switch command squads to black knights and you STILL have only 5 fast attack slots.

Of course point costs might vary. Don't recall top of my head which one was more expensive but if it's only slots you are worried about then you have 1 to spare for 3rd land speeder.

edit: Whoops nevermind. Realized my error :D

Tastyfish
22-12-2014, 11:04
Thanks for replies.

I have a feeling that building an unbeatable list with the dark angels might be harder than it would be for some other factions.

I hear of people taking eldar/tau armies, are they the true min/maxers?

If I stick to my codex can I really be called a min/maxer?

Yes, of course you can.

Playing dark angels doesn't make you exempt from taking silly looking forces because you've chosen to squeeze every last ounce out of the list at the expense of how the army looks. Just don't do that and you're fine.
If you're worried that you're going to be accused of being a Win At All Costs (WAAC) player, then you probably aren't picking a very fun army to play against.

Eldartank
23-12-2014, 01:00
^^^ I dont think i could bring a super mega power list to play against a kid. Having kids of my own and an old dad that likes to play chess my competitive spirt is diminished in certain company but I still enjoy smashing some people (mostly mates I've known my whole life).

Even though that guy was using my super-mega-power-list against that kid (and I really shouldn't have let him), It was sweet watching that kid get all those perfect dice rolls and destroy that army in just two or three shots with his Basilisk. The kid with the Imperial Guard was around 13, and the guy borrowing my min/maxed joke army was around 20 or so. The look on that guy's face as the kid handed his a** to him was so hilarious.... ;)

tneva82
23-12-2014, 07:43
^^^ I dont think i could bring a super mega power list to play against a kid.

Well to be fair he didn't bring it to play against a kid by the post. He brought it to win a tournament. Tournament=usually random pairings on round 1, then against people with about same game points. At least here.

So it was more of bad luck for the kid to end up. Should the mega army player simply give walk over by not playing then? Tournament rules don't allow having second army to switch to(and few would bring lighter army anyway).

In a way getting 0-20 on first game could actually be _good_ for the kids tournament experience as he'll then be generally playing the lighter opponents. The worst result I can think of when I go to tournaments is 20-0 victory on first round. I prefer the more relaxed games away from the hottest competition. So getting WO in the first round wouldn't even necessarily be in kids best interest(first game WO, second game likely to be whopping as well thanks to getting 20 points on first round so could be 2 games ruined. 2 games out of 3-5 games(how long tournament it was) is pretty significant.

But yeah funny case of lucky rolling :D

Eldartank
24-12-2014, 00:04
That guy who used my min/maxed Blood Angels army was so demoralized by that severe beating he suffered in that first game, he lost the second game, and the third and final game ended up in a draw for him. If I recall correctly, the 13-year-old newcomer kid with the Imperial Guard army ended up winning that tournament. :)

WarsmithGarathor94
24-12-2014, 15:57
Would people consider taling 2 units of 6 noise marines with a blastmaster in a slaanesh army min maxing

Scammel
24-12-2014, 16:19
Would people consider taling 2 units of 6 noise marines with a blastmaster in a slaanesh army min maxing

No. It might be an efficient unit, but you'd probably need to replicate it at least 4 times before anyone would make anything resembling a fuss. Not only that, it's also the signature Slannesh CSM Troops choice and bears the sacred number - for a themed list, I don't think anyone would have problems with you taking the full 6 slots of your defining Troops.

WarsmithGarathor94
24-12-2014, 16:25
No. It might be an efficient unit, but you'd probably need to replicate it at least 4 times before anyone would make anything resembling a fuss. Not only that, it's also the signature Slannesh CSM Troops choice and bears the sacred number - for a themed list, I don't think anyone would have problems with you taking the full 6 slots of your defining Troops.

Il probably have 3 units armed like that with another 2 units having blasters and a doom siren each then maybe some possessed or tactical marines

Scammel
24-12-2014, 16:31
Il probably have 3 units armed like that with another 2 units having blasters and a doom siren each then maybe some possessed or tactical marines

Yeah, that's cool. It'd be like having a go at an Ork player for fielding too many units of Boyz.

WarsmithGarathor94
24-12-2014, 16:38
Yeah, that's cool. It'd be like having a go at an Ork player for fielding too many units of Boyz.

Tbf anyone has a go at an ork player for that clearly has never faced guard

Snake Tortoise
24-12-2014, 16:43
For tyranid detachments taking two units of rippers as your mandatory troop choices and using both HQ slots for dakka flyrants. Min/maxing the force org

Spending as little as possible on troops to spend more on heavy support, fast attack etc.

Eldartank
25-12-2014, 04:04
For tyranid detachments taking two units of rippers as your mandatory troop choices and using both HQ slots for dakka flyrants. Min/maxing the force org

Spending as little as possible on troops to spend more on heavy support, fast attack etc.

After that debacle with my min/maxed joke army (from a couple of earlier posts on this thread), I decided that whenever someone borrowed one of my armies for a tournament, they could only do so if they didn't do any min/maxing. This ended up mostly affecting this one kid who often borrowed my Tyranid army. He liked to take just two minimum-sized units of Ripper Swarms and then dump the rest of his points into the monstrous creatures and uber-elite stuff. This was back in 3rd and beginning of 4th Edition, and we had lots of tournaments at our game store. Whenever this kid borrowed my Tyranid army for a tournament, I forced him to take at least two full-sized units of Gaunts before adding anything else to the army.

thanoson
25-12-2014, 09:31
Played a guy today that had this. Using the detatchment that allows a flyrant to join gargoyles. 4 flyrants, 2 Dimacheons (Forge World biggies) 2 dakka fexes, malthrope, 30 gargoyles for one of his flyrant to hide in and 3 mulculoid spores for troops. 3 spores for troops. I was like, "Seriously?"