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kikibobo
21-12-2014, 22:16
So I am on the final stretch of a campaign I am playing with my buddies, and the final battle(s) will be against Be'lakor who is trying to ascend to godhood. In the final stretch, Be'lakor has created his own "mark" and has his own set of daemons for the players to fight. I am currently running into some trouble on what to do thematically as Be'lakor has a few themes to use: shadow and leadership.

With that in mind, I could use some help fleshing out some of my ideas:

Mark Ideas: 4+ ward save; -1 to hit with shooting attacks and in cc; or units in base contact suffer -1 to leadership

Shadow Spawn (14 pts) - Core; Inf; 25mm
M-5, WS-4 BS-4, S-4, T-4, W-1, I-4, A-1, LD-8
Daemon of Be'lakor

Shades (60 pts) - Special; WB; 40mm
M-5, WS-5 BS-4, S-5, T-4, W-3, I-5, A-3, LD-8
Fly; DoB;
Pure Darkness: Unit may always be the target of Shadow magic's lore attribute, Smoke and Mirrors, regardless of unit type

Herald of Be'lakor (100 pts) - Hero; Inf
M-5, WS-6, BS-5, S-5, T-5, W-2, I-5, A-3, LD-9
DoB; wiz lvl 1 (shadow)
Upgrades:


Wiz lvl 2 (35)
Loci:

Unit gains Terror (30)




The Fade (250) - Rare; Monster; 100x150mm
M-6, WS-6 BS-5, S-5, T-5, W-5, I-4, A-5, LD-7
DoB; 4+ ward save
Shadow's Grasp: The Fade channels as if it were a wizard and may cast Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma and the Withering; The Fade casts these spells at +2; Other wizards may still gain these spells at the start of the game

Which mark makes the most sense? Do the stats seem to line up with what the model is and does it have an appropriate cost? Also, if anyone has an idea for another special/rare idea, feel free to post it.

Thanks

Metacarpi
22-12-2014, 08:24
4+ ward save as a mark trait seems WAY too powerful, -1 to hit is Nurgles schtick. -1 Ld sounds good to me, especially as there are some Ld shenanigans in the Lore of Shadow - fits thematically.

Not really looked at the units you've posted, but it seems at a glance that you've basically taken the best aspect of every troop choice in the current Daemon range? High movement, S4, T4, high WS, I, and LD? So much better than the most expensive core option in the current Daemon book, but without the weakness of S3 after the charge combined with T3?

kikibobo
22-12-2014, 14:35
I agree that the 4+ was a tad op (though pink horrors used to sport the same benefit) and I am leaning toward the -1 LD as well.

I havent taken all the best stats but I see you dilemma. They have less WS than daemonettes or bloodletters and just one higher than PBs and pink horrors, not really that high. They have less Init than daemonettes and I believe bloodletters (though BL's might be I4). PBs, daemonettes, and bloodletters also all have their own ways to make them offensively competent (poison; S5 on the charge + killing blow; AP1 + 2 attacks) whereas these guys really have nothing offensively other than above average stats. They are really kind of an in between of all the core. I am totally up for suggestions though as that I why I put this up

If I dropped everything's T by 1 across the board, I feel like they would be super weak and overpriced units, so I would need something like 4++ instead of -1 LD to compensate. If I drop T down but leave the -1 LD as the mark, what if I just priced them less:

Shadow Spawn (13 pts) - Core; Inf; 25mm
M-5, WS-4 BS-4, S-4, T-3, W-1, I-4, A-1, LD-8
Daemon of Be'lakor

N00B
22-12-2014, 21:58
I would be tempted by some ethereal options for the shades - it may just be me but it seems like it could work as a mark attribute as well.

Mark of Be'lakor/demon of Be'Lakor: the unit gets +1 to its ward save vs non magical attacks and automatically passes all dangerous terrain tests.

For shadow spawn I would drop them to S3 T3 but give them the ability to fight in an extra rank and for units hit by them to always fail an armour save on a roll of a 1 or 2 (getting the sense of how some very insubstantial demons would fight).

For Locus of Be'lakor options I would consider one that grants the unit harmonic convergence - given the reduced strength and the fact that the demon has no armour save this is something that needn't take a lot of points. Possibly another locus that gives +2 to cast to all your spells from lore of shadow against a unit in base contact.

I am a bit worried about the shades Smoke and Mirrors ability, simply because it is a bit confusing if one of them can then end up inside another unit.



Also for the ideas for special/rare:

Umbral Hunters (28 pts) - rare, cavalry (unit size 5+)
M-5, WS-6, BS-5, S-2, T-3, W-1, I-5, A-3, LD-8

Shadowmare
M-9, WS-4, BS-0, S-2, T-3, W-1, I-3, A-1, LD-5

Special rules:
Ethereal
Impact hits (1)
Shadow's Edge (Armour saves may not be taken against wounds from this unit)
Fast Cavalry
Demon of Be'Lakor


Infernal Illusions (swarm, unit size 1+, 25 pts per base)
M-5, WS-1, BS-1, S-1, T-1, W-4, I-4, A-4, LD-7
Demon of Be'Lakor
refracted form (Infernal Illusions get a 2+ wardsave)

I felt a 2+ wardsave isnt so bad on a unit with such rubbish stats and demonic instability



Shard of the Dark Prism, war machine, 150 pts, Rare

M-3, WS-4, BS-4, S-3, T-7, W-3, I-3, A-1, LD-5
Shard of the dark prism fires as a bolt thrower but may roll to wound using an target's initiative rather than its toughness if it is lower.
Shard of the dark prism channels once per magic phase for each enemy unit fleeing and successfully channels on a roll of a 5 or 6.

kikibobo
22-12-2014, 22:49
oooh. I really like that idea for a mark. Not quite as powerful as a flat 4++, but most of the time it gives a benefit. I will have to toy with that idea vs -1 LD as this at least gives a defensive capability to them. -1 LD does no good if you lose every combat

I am thinking more and more after both of your comments that this type of group is more of a horde mentality group with low S. I will probably adjust the Fade and Shades. I may mix my idea for shades with infernal illusions. I can tweak the language to say that if there is a switch with a model within the unit, the switched model must appear 1" away from that unit or something. The herald loci were also nice suggestions.

I really like these other units you have devised and will probably tweak them a bit but use them. The umbral hunters seem pretty sweet but may bump the hunter's S to 3 (shadowmare can stay at 2). I will have to peak at hexwraith stats and come up with a comparable stat line and point cost. I may make them special too. The shard of the dark prism was definitely a kool idea.

Thanks N00B for all the feedback. That was very helpful. If anyone else thinks of some stuff, please let me know.

N00B
22-12-2014, 23:39
Glad to be of help!

One thing...

Is this a purely demon based army or is it a legions army? Scope for WoC and BoC Be'Lakor themed units as well?

kikibobo
23-12-2014, 01:56
I began/designed the campaign pre-legion of chaos, and while they had to fight WoC at one point, the rules for Legion of Chaos came out after that battle. At this point in the story, the two guys I am playing with are in the Realm of Chaos, so it is pure daemons lists.

Once I finalize the mixture of my/your ideas, I will post the results. I may also post all the whining of my buddies as they have to go up against them.

Dutch_Digger
23-12-2014, 09:26
Great units here, i imagine the shadow spawn infantry to look a bit like shadow versions of bloodletters or wraiths, all you'd have to do is paint it black with a shady highlight.

silly detail maybe, but i would suggest changing the text of the Dark Prism, changing it to "channels at start of phase" or something similar, so that one cannot channel after using a few magic dice.

I think 100 pts for the herald and 60 for the shades is a bit on the low side. i'd say 70+ for the flying trolls, and 120+ for the caster/fighter-character or lowering his Toughness to 4. Especially if they follow deamonic rules

N00B
23-12-2014, 12:33
The herald is tough to judge as most of the Demon heralds are rubbish as you cant equip them as you need. I think it is better than the other bad ones but I don't know how much.

I am certainly beginning to agree that 60 pts for shades is a bit low having compared to Bretonnian Pegasus knights (at only 5 pts cheaper).

The Pegasus Knights get lower Ws, Bs, and S (although +2 S from a lance charging offsets this for one round). The Pegasus knights have 2/3 the number of wounds per model, lower initiative and only 1 attack not three (although the Pegasus itself gets a couple so it isnt so bad here). Pegasus knights get a 3+ save though (and the possibility of praying to get a 6++), which is a pretty big improvement but the Shades get 5++ and whatever bonus Demon of Be'Lakor gives them (+fear etc.).

I think that 70 pts would be a little high for the shades though as they stand simply because they are vulnerable to shooting etc before getting to combat. Yes it is probably only one turn but they will be a prime target. I would try 65 as an opening cost and see what your opponents think?

kikibobo
23-12-2014, 13:52
I like these guys so much, I will probably sit and brainstorm with one of my friends after the campaign is over and see if we can make these guys an actual choice (including adding 1 lesser gift weapon and 1 greater gift weapon). BUT as this is a campaign I am doing, I basically get to pull the GM card and they have to suck it up and play them anyways. They probably will barely scrutinize stats as it will be too many units to take in at once.

I think 65 points sounds legit for the shades when comparing more internally (ie beasts of nurgle). I decreased their initiative to 4 I believe as well

I took away the impact hits on the Umbral Hunters, lowered their WS to 5, and increased the hunter's strength to 3

Shard of the Dark Prism is an interesting model. On the one hand, the use of initiative does not immediately look like a great benefit. Most things are T3 on average and will be wounded on 2/3's the first two ranks, but it has all of a sudden become a high toughness monster hunter as most monsters will be Initiative 2. Question, would giving it an upgrade similar to screaming skull catapult work (ie Units that are wounded must take a leadership test at -1 or flee)? What if the shard of the dark prism starts out naked with just the ability to use either T or Init and it has upgrades to either get the channel ability or the forced leadership test?

N00B
23-12-2014, 19:12
Be a little wary of thinking things are balanced because they seen on par with beasts of Nurgle! The beasts are very powerful for their points. This would be like comparing your monstrous cavalry to skullcrushers or your elite infantry to White lions. Judging power against fiends might be a good start.

Umbral hunters are an interesting one for me because they are so situational. If you are up against something like Ogres or Orcs which they will only wound on 6s and dont have much armour anyway they they are pretty terrible and even on the charge will crumble to static combat res. At the other end of the scale charging them into silverhelms should give you a combat very advantageous for their points. My thinking was with the fast cav (and etherial) and impact hits they would be a finesse unit used to hit some very specific targets - their manouverability there to let them get the combats they need. The changes certainly make them more of an expected unit - the strength boost is a pretty big deal although only for the rider though. If you are fighting battles vs other demon armies then this change is probably justified for the campaign. My inspiration for this unit was the lord of the rings Nazgul models - I thought they looked cool and wondered what they could represent. I don't know really what the cost of this type of unit should be.

I like your thoughts for Shard of The Dark Prism. In general I am a big fan of upgrades. Firstly I think my estimate for the appropriate points cost for this may be a bit out. Compared to say an elf or a goblin boltthrower 150 points is massively over the top, even including some situational channelling and monster killing potential. You can get skullcannons and ironblasters for less (although see opening comment about comparing with best in class!). I would suggest Maybe 80 pts without the channel upgrade would be more appropriate. It isnt like elf or goblin ones where you can take 4-6 of them. In rare you are generally at 2 max.

The channeling upgrade I would put at +15 pts (too situational to be really powerful)
Screaming skull upgrade at +25 pts (if you are going for leadership altering effects then it could be very powerful indeed)

Other ideas

Shadow-bolt: The bolt no longer needs to kill the model in front to pierce ranks (it stops when it becomes S1) +20 pts

Eye of the Prism: After resolving the shot, but before any panic tests, the target is also subject to a randomly chosen signature spell from the basic rule book (cast at its lowest value and with the Prism's owner making all relevant choices) +20 pts (a bit random, especially as two of the spells buff the target but potentially quite powerful).


So I am trying to think what the army is missing. If the forces will be Be'Lakor alone and no other gods a few more units might not go amiss. You have fast cavalry, core infantry, swarms, warbeasts, monster, warmachines...

Some kind of shadow chariot? Some elite infantry? How about some more character options?

Mirror Image, Hero level character, Infantry, 125 pts (can take gifts)
Mirror Image does not deploy with the rest of your army, instead it is revealed in combat where it is placed anywhere in the front rank. This may be done at the beginning of any player's close combat phase. Mirror image has the WS, S, T and A statistics of a model in base contact with mirror image, chosen when it is deployed. It shares the movement characteristic of the slowest model in the unit in which it deploys. If the unit in which the mirror image is deployed is destroyed the mirror image is also destroyed. If the unit in which the mirror image is deployed end up outside of combat for any reason remove the mirror image and it may be deployed again at the start of any following close combat phase.

M *, WS *, BS-0, S *, T *, W-2, I-5, A *, LD-8

(usual demon rules/ Be'Lakor rules)

kikibobo
23-12-2014, 20:28
Well dont forget that you would still probably have the neutral, mark added, options like furries, soulgrinder, and DP to round the army out a bit

I was trying to figure out how best to utilize your ideas for shadow spawn (extra ranks and rerolling armor saves). Instead what I came up with is "ethereal claws" as their magic weapon which forces a reroll of armor saves of 6.... kinda powerful but I am using it for the campaign. What do you think though for balancing purposes? I am considering dropping the S down to 2 for shadow spawn with this weapon. I personally would like to find a way to get them down to 11 or 12 points and be more of a horde. I see your reasoning for umbral hunters, and I might put impact hits back on them and drop S to 2.

I really like the idea of shadow-bolt upgrade. The eye of the prism was a bit much for my taste though. Would you envision this to be a "choose one" or could someone spam all three? For 125pt you have a bolt thrower that always pierces ranks, can use initiative instead of T, and forces a leadership test at -1... sounds like a pretty fun warmachine

I think the only thing this needs is a hero level special character. Not every daemon army has elite infantry or chariots, and this has 2 rare, 2 special, and 1 core on top of the neutral choices. I'm not a fan of mirror image as its too much like the changeling. I wouldnt mind an element of surprise but maybe not the mirror stats.

N00B
23-12-2014, 22:09
The Umbral Stalkers thing wasn't an attempt to get you to change back the stats! Just an explanation. Realistically I think they could work either way.

The Ethereal Claws ability is interesting - it tips the balance vs light infantry with 5+ or 6+ saves where the re-roll is likely to fail but doesn't help much vs heavy armour. If you run Umbral stalkers as options then there may be a decent counterpoint.

I see your point on mirror image. Agree with that.

Eye of the Prism - I think it feels clunky and not quite so shadow focussed. I kind of got carried away with the "prism" in its name. In terms of how many could you pick... it might depend on balance but I would be tempted to allow more than one. Each combination looks fairly costed and whilst the offensive power does go up with multiple upgrades none of them seem disproportionately costed (and you are limited to two, which helps).


I couple of ideas - if you think there is any merit we can flesh them out.

1) As a mechanic, a creature that is difficult to see - just occasionally out of the corner of your eye... The more your peripheral vision is obscured the harder it is to see. In order to hit it you must first roll less than your armour save to represent mount/helmet/shield obscuring your view.

2) Mirror Image - Maybe represented by a character that when hit inflicts the same hit back to whatever dealt it?

Suggestion for Hero level special Character:

The Ephemarum 225 pts
M-7, WS-6, BS-5, S-4, T-4, W-2, I-5, A-3, LD-8
Ethereal
Scout
Shadowshroud: All terrain within 12" is counted as dangerous terrain
Lower the Veil: Enemy wizards within 24" re-roll all 6s when trying to cast spells
Dust in the Wind: Enemy units within 6" gain the unstable special rule

kikibobo
26-12-2014, 14:22
Sorry... Christmas

1) I like the idea of something that is hard to hit, but it would not be a great mechanic for a character within a unit, just a lone figure

2) Not a bad idea for mirror image. He would need some additional rules to complement that ability and push people to attack him as most will just ignore him and let him die to instability. You would need some punishing aura or positive aura that makes others really want him dead

3) What if we combine a few of these ideas you have (including Ephemarum) into a lone-Masque debuff like character

?????? - 200pts (40x40mm?) - Hero
M-7, WS-5, BS-5, S-4, T-4, W-4, I-5, A-3, LD-8
Scout; DoB
Cloak of Shadows: In order to hit ????? in cc, a model must roll 1d6 and the result must be less than their armor save
When ?????? is placed on the field at the start of the game, choose one of the following abilities:
Shadowshroud: Enemies treat all terrain with 18" of ?????? as dangerous terrain. If the terrain already is dangerous terrain, the unit takes a test at -1
Dusk Cloud: Enemy units that end their movement within 18" of ????? reduce their line of sight to 20"
???? Can change which ability it has at the start of its movement phase.

We could add a third ability (and name lol), but what do you think?

N00B
29-12-2014, 15:39
Sorry for the slow reply... As you said, Christmas.

Regarding mirror image - challenges issued by this guy cant be refused and you get to pick who answers them?

I like the idea of multiple abilities and selecting which one to use.

When do you begin to use this.

kikibobo
29-12-2014, 19:37
Unfortunately, tonight lol. One of the dudes got a job in another state, so this will be the one and only battle with Be'lakor for the campaign. We actually had to crunch the final like 5 battles down to 3. Its a final fight against Be'lakor who has tricked them this entire campaign. All they know is that I have developed a unique mark and army based around Be'lakor, so they are in for quite a surprise battle as they have no idea really what to expect. It should be a blast... if I can remember all my stuff lol.

I still plan to flesh this out though with you and my friend who is sticking around so I can try to use this army on a regular basis. I made quite a few changes for this list:

1. Heralds dont start at lvl 1 but they have shimmering claws (I changed it from ethereal claws as there was too much similarity in names). I also gave the herald the ability to ride a shadowmare and be a part of the umbral hunters... in essence shadowmare gives ethereal to the model (I may remove this ability later... do not know).

2. I went with the S2 version of umbral hunters and kept the impact hit (1) on them

3. I upped the price for shades to 70 points. They are S5, T4, A4, fly and can basically be used to switch places with the Fade and a DP (technically a herald can do it too... but why would they?). 70 may be too low even but I will playtest and see how good their support stuff turns out to be.

My list for tonight:

Be'lakor
A horde of shadowspawn with a lichbone pendant (for perma 4+)
2x3 shades
herald (lvl 1, terror loci and goes with shadowspawn)
herald (lvl 1, shadowmare, reroll to-hit and to-wound loci, and goes with umbral hunters)
The Fade
Umbral Huntersx10
Shard of the Dark Prism with the pierce ranks regardless of killing the model upgrade and the -1ld panic test upgrade

I will let you know how it goes tomorrow, and I will post the composite list of units and upgrades we have created thus far when I give you the update.

I still like the idea of Mirror Image, so maybe that idea would work. I say mirror image must challenge if possible and can force people to accept... at which point we have two options for how to run with him: 1) While in a challenge, he becomes a mirror image of the character... 100% identical for the purpose of the challenge; or 2) He has crap stats like you have listed, but deals identical hits to the challenged foe. Both would work, but the former is more powerful

We still need some custom 25pt and 50pt weapons on the gifts chart for the heralds or a DP (I would say the mark is probably a 10pt one for a DP) and maybe flesh out the guy with the shroud abilities.

N00B
29-12-2014, 20:45
Well good luck with this - feel free to drop me a message if you want to flesh out some ideas after the campaign.

How about the mirror image isnt a character but is an upgrade for the unit much like a champion or musician? It gets the crap stats but the returning pain and forced challenge ability. It only gets revealed once the unit comes into contact with a character? It may make Heralds more useful without a defensive upgrade - at least they wont be picked off by an enemy character in one turn before they get to strike.

What armies are you up against?

kikibobo
29-12-2014, 21:04
That is a good idea to make it an upgrade. With the new 50% rules though, you could easily make it a low costing hero who has the ability to be sprung when he comes into contact, like the goblin ones and DE assassins

I will be up against high elves led by Eruantien (has the ability to gain the equipment and stats of the unit he is in) and ogres led by Skrotag (always gets d3 impact hits and has some special armor). The ogre player has stated that the high elf player is bringing a "cheese wheel". I assume this means the banner of the world dragon accompanied by a light council or a lvl 4 life mage with a few light mages for taste. He probably thinks I have developed pure unadulterated cheese for this battle and is unwilling to hold back lol. When they fought the nurgle army in the realm of chaos, they got destroyed by all my toughness spells, so he vowed to not hold back again

N00B
29-12-2014, 21:45
Banner of the world dragon could still cause some pain if your demons still have magic attacks (unless it is in a unit with not too many ranks and with no magical attacks!). On the plus side... you should have a decent chance of resolving a Miasma to slow the unit. Umbral stalkers could be fun there and depending on cost could be very strong (impact hits>ASF, low T high value units). If a Phoenix is coming then your bolt thrower should be pretty good. Light council will also wreck your day, but again that goes for most demons. If you want acceptance of these rules then you might have to take this one on the chin to show that these armies can be beaten.

The ogres should be relatively easy - Shadow has a bunch of nasty spells vs low I armies and withering should be able to offset their higher toughness. Even Ironblasters are likely to to facing a 4+ ward save on everything they shoot at.


Are you going to want to develop a Lore of Be'Lakor to run alongside shadow?

kikibobo
29-12-2014, 22:05
The HE dude has some silverhelms that have gained a few abilities and have been quite effective in the campaign, so Umbral Hunters are set to try to take them on as they are faster and can hopefully get the charge on them. Plan is to avoid whatever unit I think will have the world dragon and hope to take out everything else. So far, ironblaster has not seen the table much, so I am not expecting it. Frost Phoenix has had one appearance, so I probably will not have to fight that either. Light council would be a pain to deal with, but that is why I have lichbone and will hope he focuses my horde. I anticipate white lions, silverhelms, bolt thrower, bulls/ironguts, mournfangs, and ironblaster/stonehorn

I also gave them a unified mark DP (all four marks, no magic, fly, chaos armor, and up to 50pts of gifts) as part of what has been happening in the campaign. luckily, I know how to use a DP after much trial and error whereas they have just seen me using them.

So far throughout the campaign, I have played fairly casual as this was a narrated campaign so the goal was for them to win pretty much every battle. They lost against nurgle but that was mainly because they let epidemius live and I snowballed too much. With tonight, I was planning on not holding back... but you make a good point that I dont want these guys to seem too op lol

kikibobo
30-12-2014, 14:21
So the cheese banner struck again! The HE player brought a lvl 4 light mage and a lvl 1 life mage, but the light mage did very little of worth... didnt even manage to roll banishment (not sure why he did not go light council). The cheese banner was placed on the light mage and his unit of steadfast white lions. I hit the white lions with a unit of shades (only two got into base contact), the umbral hunters + herald with rerolling to hit and to wound, and Be'lakor.... they pounded on the white lions for like 4 turns and still lost because EVERYTHING else wiped out the rest of my stuff and then hit me on all sides. The table we played on was not the standard 4x6 which made it difficult to maneuver my shades and be'lakor into harass positions like I wanted, so I would like to try them out in a more typical battle (especially one where they dont have a tricked out DP and special custom model and unit upgrades... the silverhelms have the ability to reroll armor saves of 1 which has saved many a helm).

At first, they were like, "OP OP OP OP!" when I described my army, but by the end of the match, one of my buddies confessed that he really didnt see anything too crazy. The Umbral hunters and rerolling to hit and to wound were the biggest complaints. The ward save was also a complaint, but it is something which can be countered.

To fix concerns, I think I am going to remove the ability for a herald to join the Umbral Hunters so they cant get the loci, but I am not going to remove the herald loci itself as I think it makes sense. I may adjust its price tag and increase it by 5-10 points. I actually dropped the Umbral Hunters' attacks down to 2 for the battle because I heard "OP" talk building, but if I remove the herald and bring them up to 3 attacks for the riders, I honestly think they are fair. S2 is nothing, so they rely on some magic to make them really shine then... or they just bog down a unit and become an interesting anvil. The unanimous decision was to remove impact hits as it just didnt seem to make sense.

Dark Prism: I missed all three shots due to some unique terrain giving good protection. IF it hits, it can cause some serious damage, but due to reliance on BS, I think it was fair.

The fade: underwhelming but that was mostly due to lack of magic dice (I did manage two miasma's one turn which effectively removed teh silverhelms' ability to reroll to hits and gave the mournfangs WS1 meaning they hit on 5's), and the table made it so we got into combat super quick. I may tweak some of his stats or his price tag but I think the abilities make sense and work.

Shadow Spawn: I adjusted them to have 2 attacks, but it was hard to decide if they worked out. If they had gotten the reroll to hit and to wound, they might have worked fairly effectively (the rerolling armor saves of 6 kinda works on them), but they were hit by mournfangs AND silverhelms... only the 4+ ward saved kept them alive for 3 rounds. That would have been enough but I couldnt grind down the white lions due to the banner. How would you feel about leaving them at 2 attacks, decreasing their strength to 2 and dropping their price tag down to 11 or 12? At 13pts and S3, they might still be an effective unit, but I was thinking that a cheaper core model would make for a more horde like group

Herald: I THINK the three loci work (terror, +2 to cast on models in base contact, and reroll), but I think we need to come up with a new mount option. I think something with fly would be interesting. Maybe something 40mm that allows them to fit in with the shades? no lookout sir as they are warbeasts but it could be interesting to give loci to the shades. As I removed auto-level 1 wizard, I am dropping the price tag down to 90 as well.

Overall, I enjoyed them but need to make some tweaks to balance things out and make them even more enjoyable.

I dont have access to all my notes, so I will make these changes when I get home tonight, after work, and post everything as well as a draft of mirror image

N00B
30-12-2014, 18:07
Yeah, sounds good. Playtesting sounds like it went well.

Keeping Umbral hunters separate from Heralds will seriously hurt them - probably rightly so. I also dont feel that anything is too crazy - I think that it is a bit of a different army to what people may be used to though. Where they are used to higher strength attacks being more effective they may not adjust to what you need to get past the 4++ ward. To a white lion a 4++ ward is as survivable as a 1+ normal armour save (and a similar point with charging silverhelms). If he had chosen to bring spearmen or archers then he would see them as less hardy than plaguebearers.

Dark Prism seems fair, and also pretty important. Magic by itself is too unreliable but it can help handle units like ogres that the army would otherwise struggle with.

Shadow spawn at S2 and cheaper make sense but then you are trying to win combat through static combat res a lot of the time as you wont inflict many casualties. If you do this you may want to expand the aggressive options in the list.