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Lord Dan
22-12-2014, 23:23
A buddy of mine is a long-time Dark Elf player who has been effectively out of the hobby for about 6 months. Today he sent me a text and told me that he's had some time to sit down and paint, and wanted to be brought up to speed on "this End Times thing". As it was sent over text, I happen to have the entire conversation verbatim:

Friend: "Whats this end time thing I've been hearing about?"
Dan: "Woah, that's a huge question. Essentially the Warhammer world is being flipped on its head. They're advancing fluff, killing characters, destroying nations - you name it."
Friend: "Haha, awesome. Noteworthy details?"
Dan: "The book that will interest you the most is the Khaine one that just came out."
Friend: "Cool! Wait, let me guess, the Elves still hate each other. Lol."
Dan: "..."
Friend: "What?"
Dan: "You should sit."
Friend: "Sitting."
Dan: "Malekith was crowned Pheonix King, Tyrion drew Widowmaker and turned into the Avatar of Khaine, Ulthuan was destroyed, all the Elves now live with each other in Athel Loren under the rule of Malekith."
Friend: "Anything else?"
Dan: "A lot. Maybe you should process that first. How are you feeling?"
Friend: "Tingly. You're telling me Malekith now rules the High Elves?"
Dan: "All Elves, yes."
Friend: "So the Dark Elves won."
Dan: "In a roundabout way, sure."
Friend: "I'm not sure I'm cool with that. Who do I hate now? What's the point?"
Dan: "I thought you might feel that way. Elves basically hate everyone anyway, though, so you'll be fine."
Friend: "Life was so easy before. The answer was always "Kill High Elves". We got kicked out of our home? Kill High Elves. I'm hungry? Kill High Elves. Now what do I kill?"
Dan: "Geographically speaking? Beastmen and Bretonnian peasants."
Friend: "Actually I'm okay with that. What else"
Dan: "I'll call you once I get off work. I'm not texting all 3 books to you, haha."
Friend: "That's cool. Actually I think I'm going to lay down for a while..."

Have you guys had any funny reactions when explaining ET material to people?

Spiney Norman
23-12-2014, 00:34
The funny thing I found with Khaine as a wood elf player is that when you strip off all the 'we hate high elves' and 'we hate dark elves' from the high/ dark elf factions, you discover that they are basically all just wood elves underneath, it seems fitting that everyone now lives together in Athel Loren, not to mention that we woodies stole on of the Asur's best characters in exchange for losing our worst one. All in all I think if any of the three elf factions are the 'winners' of the civil war it has to be counted to the Asrai.

Fear Ghoul
23-12-2014, 00:43
Usually whenever I describe the latest happenings in End Times to my gaming friends they respond with something equivalent to a face palm.

SuperHappyTime
23-12-2014, 02:11
What kind of name is "Friend"? Is it biblical?

For others it's either pure joy or utter hate of the story. Khaine has been the biggest driver of that division.

SeBM
23-12-2014, 13:05
I play with both my brothers, one plays HE, the other plays DE.

HE brother: I'm selling all my stuff.
DE brother: I'm buying all your stuff.

Pretty much xD

aprilmanha
23-12-2014, 14:03
I think the only reaction I've seen so far is facepalms :D
Oh and one count of a long term painter friend selling all of his high elves.

Mine are locked in their box only to come out again to either sell or give away now :D

Lord Dan
23-12-2014, 14:04
to either sell or give away now :D

I mean, if you're looking to have someone take them off your hands... :p

Disposable Hero
23-12-2014, 14:52
I love the End Times.

Progress!

Edited to say that my friends are mostly: "Yeah! We need to get more games in. When I have time, or when my wife let's me. But deffo more games. Sometimes."

It makes you want to start building diorama's.

ivrg
23-12-2014, 15:12
will there even be different elf armies in the future? Many questionsmarks here. And i am not sure the other elfs would accept malekith, and i am not sure that athel loren would accept dark elfs..
Seems like the different elf armies and cultures are being scrapped and i dont like it. Will witch elfs, phenix guards and wardancers fight alons side eachother now?

Reiko321
23-12-2014, 16:00
My friend had been out of Whfb for about 6mos and I was giving him the low down of ET... He anticipated that Tyrion would finally pick up the sword... Reinforcing Malkeiths view of "wait, you said I couldn't do that back in the day... And now that YOU want to it's ok-"

And also brought up the wood elves view of "I told you Athel Loren was better than Ulthuan... Your hammock is over there dark elf".

He was receptive to my explanation... With his response being "so gw is rewriting the game to get mostly away from Europe"

RainSong
23-12-2014, 16:50
I'm waiting until 9th before picking up my elves again. No idea whether the ET is the new status quo or just a passing phase...

aprilmanha
23-12-2014, 17:02
I mean, if you're looking to have someone take them off your hands... :p

Heh sorry, Reserving the Give away option for close friends :) I may be generous, but I'm not quite that nice :D

Lord Dan
23-12-2014, 17:12
Reserving the Give away option for close friends :)

Wha...you mean? You don't consider us close friends?? :cries:

I'm shocked. Hurt, even. How could someone who wasn't as close a friend as I am know that you live in the UK, and that you've been on Warseer for well over two years?

I rest my case. ;)

aprilmanha
23-12-2014, 17:49
Wha...you mean? You don't consider us close friends?? :cries:

I'm shocked. Hurt, even. How could someone who wasn't as close a friend as I am know that you live in the UK, and that you've been on Warseer for well over two years?

I rest my case. ;)

Ohh ok then, you have have them if you cover the Ģ300 postage to Pennsylvania :D

TheDanish
23-12-2014, 18:25
As a High Elf player on hiatus who keeps up with the game's changes, my reaction has been to wait and see how it all pans out before I decide to get back into the game.

Col. Tartleton
23-12-2014, 18:38
I think its funny that people are selling their armies before they even know if these changes will continue into 9th edition. It's entirely possible, perhaps likely that Dark Elves will still be separate from High Elves and Wood Elves in 9th edition even if End Times is still an option for the combined armies.

Fear Ghoul
23-12-2014, 18:49
I think its funny that people are selling their armies before they even know if these changes will continue into 9th edition. It's entirely possible, perhaps likely that Dark Elves will still be separate from High Elves and Wood Elves in 9th edition even if End Times is still an option for the combined armies.

Which makes one wonder what the point of all these changes are in the first place if they're just going to be reversed.

Scammel
23-12-2014, 19:00
Which makes one wonder what the point of all these changes are in the first place if they're just going to be reversed.

They don't need to be reversed for all three armies to be separate. Why are folks under the impression that TET lists somehow completely replace the existing one-race lists?

CountUlrich
23-12-2014, 19:14
Which makes one wonder what the point of all these changes are in the first place if they're just going to be reversed.

Advance the storyline, fun fluff, exciting campaign scenarios, sell books and models, possibly test some mechanics and changes for 9th. All great reasons and all are being delivered on.

The bigger question is why people cry about lack of attention, campaigns, models, static timeline ... And then complain more when something is done about it.


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aprilmanha
23-12-2014, 19:18
The bigger question is why people cry about lack of attention, campaigns, models, static timeline ... And then complain more when something is done about it.

Has anyone actually complained about both things?
I would assume you are confusing 2 groups of people as the same group, even though they have exactly opposite points of view :)

Ramius4
23-12-2014, 19:26
possibly test some mechanics and changes for 9th

If 9th is coming next summer, it will have been completed several months ago.

Andy p
23-12-2014, 19:31
I must be a really cold fish, because I am surprised at the sheer passion some people have for their armies. To the point they would sell them because of the the fluff?

I suppose from a certain perspective it could be considered admirable.

CountUlrich
23-12-2014, 19:44
Has anyone actually complained about both things?
I would assume you are confusing 2 groups of people as the same group, even though they have exactly opposite points of view :)

Yes, just look at Anthony/Sustainable Center... Before ET started (but funnily after virtually everyone knew of Nagash), he made a video crying about lack of attention for WHFB, and disbelieved when I told him about ET coming.

Since? Lot of bitching about new magic, overpowered lists and lots of other stuff ... And he's far from alone.


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PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
23-12-2014, 19:55
Yes, just look at Anthony/Sustainable Center... Before ET started (but funnily after virtually everyone knew of Nagash), he made a video crying about lack of attention for WHFB, and disbelieved when I told him about ET coming.

Since? Lot of bitching about new magic, overpowered lists and lots of other stuff ... And he's far from alone.


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Yeah, but Anthony basically complains about things for a living. I mean....have you listened to his battle reports? :P

Ramius4
23-12-2014, 20:28
Yes, just look at Anthony/Sustainable Center... Before ET started (but funnily after virtually everyone knew of Nagash), he made a video crying about lack of attention for WHFB, and disbelieved when I told him about ET coming.

Which is even funnier considering that WFB has had more releases in the last 2 years than in any 2 year period of GW's history (and that's before counting End Times releases).

Cue Lord Dan popping in to call me 'the hammer'. :shifty:

Lord Dan
23-12-2014, 20:38
I think I'll just call you Uncle Sledge from now on.

CountUlrich
23-12-2014, 20:40
Which is even funnier considering that WFB has had more releases in the last 2 years than in any 2 year period of GW's history (and that's before counting End Times releases).

Cue Lord Dan popping in to call me 'the hammer'. :shifty:

Hey, I agree totally, that was part of my response.


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Kallstrom
23-12-2014, 22:10
Has anyone actually complained about both things?
I would assume you are confusing 2 groups of people as the same group, even though they have exactly opposite points of view :)


I must be a really cold fish, because I am surprised at the sheer passion some people have for their armies. To the point they would sell them because of the the fluff?

I suppose from a certain perspective it could be considered admirable.

"I have invested heaviliy into a heap of plastic figures, but now some lads in Nottingham killed off the characters my models are supposed to portray. This leads to confusion on my part since I have a hard time thinking for myself I find myself totally dependent on the creative desicions an englishman many miles away have. The fate of my plastic soldiers is in his hand, and in the End of Times the races are fragile and their destiny uncertain. But now that my army met their demise in the fluff I cannot stand enjoying this hobby with my army ever again. Invested or not, my enjoyment is a hostage in the hands of a profiteer. Alas, now I have no army - no more. And I am none the happier."

Maybe I was dropped as a child, but I would not mind my main army going partly or mostly away (Dwarfs). My controversial point of view might come from the fact that I only collect OOP metal dwarfs.

SeBM
24-12-2014, 02:43
"I have invested heaviliy into a heap of plastic figures, but now some lads in Nottingham killed off the characters my models are supposed to portray. This leads to confusion on my part since I have a hard time thinking for myself I find myself totally dependent on the creative desicions an englishman many miles away have. The fate of my plastic soldiers is in his hand, and in the End of Times the races are fragile and their destiny uncertain. But now that my army met their demise in the fluff I cannot stand enjoying this hobby with my army ever again. Invested or not, my enjoyment is a hostage in the hands of a profiteer. Alas, now I have no army - no more. And I am none the happier."

Maybe I was dropped as a child, but I would not mind my main army going partly or mostly away (Dwarfs). My controversial point of view might come from the fact that I only collect OOP metal dwarfs.

To be honest, I can understand such a reaction. I play the game because the setting appeals to me and the background and rule of cool (you know, models looking good) is more important then the rules when I pick an army. I've always loved HE and WE before and despised DE. Now shaking things up was necessary, but I feel like it should've been done in a way that was believable. I don't feel it was done in a such a way and I would be really pissed to see all my favorite characters die in such circumstances.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong to react this way, but they cetainly have the right to. I understand people that do and feel for them, it really depends on what is important for you in this hibby of ours.

plantagenet
24-12-2014, 03:11
The HE were definetly the biggest losers. From a fluff perspective u would imagine that armies led by the traitor Imrik would still be almost entirely he based.

Liber
24-12-2014, 03:40
I must be a really cold fish, because I am surprised at the sheer passion some people have for their armies. To the point they would sell them because of the the fluff?


I basically did this with the Tau. Didn't sell my army, but did stop playing them.



If the stories and background and/or the characters therein are a big reason for playing...then its also a big reason for not playing. Its cool that your not into that sort of thing of course. Personally I don't think I'm attached quite enough to Fantasy fluff to drop an army cause of changes. The thing that pulled me into Fantasy was honestly the gameplay itself, whereas 40k I didn't enjoy battling as much so the fluff (and models) were kinda everything.


What all this means is that while I disagree with people leaving cause of ET changes, I do understand it.


What I don't understand is rushing to judgement before things are settled. We have no idea, only guesses to how things will turn out when the dust settles. People, no matter how passionate, should wait for it to be over before letting themselves decide what to do definitively.

Darnok
24-12-2014, 08:33
Cue Lord Dan popping in to call me 'the hammer'. :shifty:


I think I'll just call you Uncle Sledge from now on.

Get a room you two. :p

Andy p
24-12-2014, 08:51
I basically did this with the Tau. Didn't sell my army, but did stop playing them.



If the stories and background and/or the characters therein are a big reason for playing...then its also a big reason for not playing. Its cool that your not into that sort of thing of course. Personally I don't think I'm attached quite enough to Fantasy fluff to drop an army cause of changes. The thing that pulled me into Fantasy was honestly the gameplay itself, whereas 40k I didn't enjoy battling as much so the fluff (and models) were kinda everything.


What all this means is that while I disagree with people leaving cause of ET changes, I do understand it.


What I don't understand is rushing to judgement before things are settled. We have no idea, only guesses to how things will turn out when the dust settles. People, no matter how passionate, should wait for it to be over before letting themselves decide what to do definitively.

I would say it's not that I'm not into the background or the fluff, in fact my armies are fairly themed except for my O & G who are a hodge podge of different elements (actually that is a suitable theme for them). But I tend to enjoy a setting which I can use as a framework for my own stories.

Time isn't as linear as we experience, at least I might guess, and it certainly isn't within fictional worlds. One of my armies is Tomb Kings another Brets. But I can set a narrative leading to a battle at any point in that timeline and I can even think of ideas for the current one, I always thought that was the point.

You're right though; abandoning before understanding I think is my curiosity.

aprilmanha
24-12-2014, 09:30
Well to be fair I only got my High Elves because I needed a warhammer army asap when I started working at GW.
I've never been keen on their mix of special rules, like ASF, but how they are totally dependent on those rules to be able to make a dent at their points value.
Also their need for magic to perform well, which I universally fail at every time (Dunno why, my dice just seem to hate magic phases).

So I got Dwarfs and Ogres as well :P They are much more fun!

The whole Endtimes thing just removed the fluff reasons I still held onto the army and sometimes painted a bit more, as all the characters I liked, turned into gits.
(Its a bit like hanging out with a friend you are not super keen on but can have fun with, only one day he reads a new book and turns out to be totally racist)

Warpsoul
24-12-2014, 12:33
Nothing in the world could stop me fielding my Dark Elves, say, ten years from now.

Even if a post-apocalyptic End Times 9th/10th/11th Edition becomes the gaming norm. I'll still field my segregated, High Elf-loathing Dark Elves even if I have to clone myself through genetic engineering to have someone to play against.

English 2000
24-12-2014, 12:42
Get a room you two. :p
Don't judge until you try Darnok. The last time the conversation went in this direction I was asked to join them. Good times were had by all. You want in this time? [emoji14]

Shadeseraph
24-12-2014, 13:11
Nothing in the world could stop me fielding my Dark Elves, say, ten years from now.

Even if a post-apocalyptic End Times 9th/10th/11th Edition becomes the gaming norm. I'll still field my segregated, High Elf-loathing Dark Elves even if I have to clone myself through genetic engineering to have someone to play against.

Don't worry, we can hate each other for eternity.

Col. Tartleton
24-12-2014, 16:11
Which makes one wonder what the point of all these changes are in the first place if they're just going to be reversed.

For about six thousand years dark elves and high elves have been in a perpetual war. For what? One year give or take they redefine the factions and then resolve the war.

No one said your game has to take place in 2526.

The US and Soviets were allies in 1945 and enemies in 1947.

Laniston
24-12-2014, 16:18
For about six thousand years dark elves and high elves have been in a perpetual war. For what? One year give or take they redefine the factions and then resolve the war.

No one said your game has to take place in 2526.

The US and Soviets were allies in 1945 and enemies in 1947.
Someone call the Hall of Truth.

Sotek
24-12-2014, 17:25
Yes, just look at Anthony/Sustainable Center... Before ET started (but funnily after virtually everyone knew of Nagash), he made a video crying about lack of attention for WHFB, and disbelieved when I told him about ET coming.

Since? Lot of bitching about new magic, overpowered lists and lots of other stuff ... And he's far from alone.


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Yeah theres attention in the form of 'updates and status quo' and 'updates that rape the fluff, destroy established history and take a massive dump on gamers'

CountUlrich
24-12-2014, 19:34
Yeah theres attention in the form of 'updates and status quo' and 'updates that rape the fluff, destroy established history and take a massive dump on gamers'

Well, in case you haven't noticed, you are in the extreme minority if you feel they did that. ET has been wildly popular and very well received, with the possible exception of the Khaine magic and upset high elves (and for the record I think the elf faction gets broken back up before the end of all of this).


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Bigman
24-12-2014, 21:33
I wouldn't say minority.

I do think the End Times are a lot to take in, and given some more time I think more people would be happier with it all.

The speed is very quick. We have had a lot of updates to our world in just a few months. With some more time to process each change I think it would have been a smoother transition.

Anyway my own reaction has been one of "wow, this is cool".

I have played chaos legions and Khaine magic already. I enjoy the options, and would love to try a scenario soon too.

Spiney Norman
24-12-2014, 23:11
I wouldn't say minority.

I do think the End Times are a lot to take in, and given some more time I think more people would be happier with it all.

The speed is very quick. We have had a lot of updates to our world in just a few months. With some more time to process each change I think it would have been a smoother transition.

Anyway my own reaction has been one of "wow, this is cool".

I have played chaos legions and Khaine magic already. I enjoy the options, and would love to try a scenario soon too.
I'll admit that as a wood elf player I probably didn't feel the full force of the fluff violation that most high/dark elf fans will, but whatever you think about the direction they are taking the end times in the point is that they are doing something with it, and for my money that is a good thing. The models have been absolutely fantastic and for the most part the fluff has been well written an emersive. It does seem that the Khaine book got the short end of the stick (in all departments), but ET:Nagash was the best money I've spent on warhammer all year.

Bigman
24-12-2014, 23:18
I'll agree there personally. I like the direction if not all of the rules.

Fear Ghoul
25-12-2014, 00:25
Well, in case you haven't noticed, you are in the extreme minority if you feel they did that. ET has been wildly popular and very well received, with the possible exception of the Khaine magic and upset high elves (and for the record I think the elf faction gets broken back up before the end of all of this).


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Pure speculation, and in any case you're not right just because you are in the (supposed) majority.


For about six thousand years dark elves and high elves have been in a perpetual war. For what? One year give or take they redefine the factions and then resolve the war.

No one said your game has to take place in 2526.

The US and Soviets were allies in 1945 and enemies in 1947.

The US and Soviets were highly distrustful and unwilling allies in 1945, and the cold war between them ended after about 45 years relatively peacefully and without one being annexed by the other. For those reasons your analogy is almost the exact opposite in every way to what occurred in End Times: Khaine between the High Elves and Dark Elves.

Leogun_91
25-12-2014, 00:34
I have played chaos legions and Khaine magic already. I enjoy the options, and would love to try a scenario soon too.Have tried two scenarios, Ambush in the Deep Desert was OK (standard TK army with Lore of Undeath option and Undead Ascendant is not bad to play) but nothing special. Battle for Skull Chasm was probably the worst designed scenario I've yet had to play, stop a flying general to move of the table, either the greenskin brings a gunline and Neferata is stone dead turn one or two, or the greenskin don't and she can just soar past them all and exit the battlefield.

Col. Tartleton
25-12-2014, 03:46
Someone call the Hall of Truth.

I'm guessing you meant Ministry of Truth. In which case well played.


Yeah theres attention in the form of 'updates and status quo' and 'updates that rape the fluff, destroy established history and take a massive dump on gamers'

That "massive dump" smells like witchcraft. I'm reporting you to your Lector.


The US and Soviets were highly distrustful and unwilling allies in 1945, and the cold war between them ended after about 45 years relatively peacefully and without one being annexed by the other. For those reasons your analogy is almost the exact opposite in every way to what occurred in End Times: Khaine between the High Elves and Dark Elves.

Okay. How about: It's 1949 and as a West German, with the scars of the world war still fresh you're in part relying on your new buddy France and this whole NATO thing to help you after centuries of Franco-German animosity and war because the Russians are coming and no one wants that.

Fear Ghoul
25-12-2014, 08:33
Okay. How about: It's 1949 and as a West German, with the scars of the world war still fresh you're in part relying on your new buddy France and this whole NATO thing to help you after centuries of Franco-German animosity and war because the Russians are coming and no one wants that.

The Asur-Druchi animosity is several orders of magnitude more intense than anything historically felt between the French and Germans. Malekith hates the High Elves so much that he decided to try and destroy the world rather than let them rule Ulthuan. The only difference between him and Nagash is that one has actually succeeded in destroying an enemy kingdom whilst the other has not.

Scammel
25-12-2014, 09:05
When I was younger, it always struck he as odd that Tzeentch, while a capricious so-and-so, was hanging around with the malicious embodiments of Rage, Despair and Depravity.

Transpires that Change is actually more terrifying than all of those, it would seem.

Ramius4
25-12-2014, 14:01
The Asur-Druchi animosity is several orders of magnitude more intense than anything historically felt between the French and Germans.

Hi over-exaggeration guy, nice to meet you :)


Malekith hates the High Elves so much that he decided to try and destroy the world rather than let them rule Ulthuan.

Hitler would have done that too, if the technological means had existed at the time. Doesn't mean that all Germans felt the same way. (refer back to first quote)


The only difference between him and Nagash is that one has actually succeeded in destroying an enemy kingdom whilst the other has not.

I don't think you actually have any understanding whatsoever of these two characters if you think that's their only difference.

Tupinamba
25-12-2014, 14:09
This whole ET business has had a very serious negative effect on my motivation with WHFB, to the point of dropping my already low painting rate and making me look harder for gaming alternatives.

First, from the point of view of fluff. Background and the warhammer universe were a major plus on the decision why Iīve started playing WHFB in the first place, so destroying everything I liked in that regard for the sake of some socalled "needed" advancement of the story has upset me a great deal. Donīt understand this "advancement of story" anyway. If I`m playing in a WWII setting, thatīs the setting. I donīt need it to be radically changed later on in any way. If I want a different setting, I prefer to go and play another game.

Second, from the gameplay perspective, itīs equally bad. The changes are pushing the game to some kind of WHFB Apocalypse/Storm of Magic mix, but not as optional add ons. As with the background, the original, mass battle style of gameplay is what made me start playing WHFB in the first play. Totally changing it in the opposite directions has upset me a lot too.

So of course ET changes have a great deal of potential of making people quit. And honestly, the only reasons I`m not quitting is because Iīve already invested too much time and energy in it and because there is already an established player base in my community,

People say thatīs only whiners complaining about change. Thatīs not at all the case. I like diversity, and thatīs why I try out other gaming systems, like FOW, DW, Star Trek etc. I like to change playstyle and backgrounds. But not within the same system, as this defeats its own purpose. People that didnīt like the original background and playstyle should just play other games. Iīm actually really perplexed at the apparent popularity of ET (not convinced though, as the sale outs are most due to GWs artificial hype creation tactics).

MasterSplinter
25-12-2014, 14:38
@Tupinamba: Iīd recommend to take a look at Kings of War to you. The reason to deal with the KoW ruleset for me originally was the fact that i expected big inbalance issues with the endtimes books for whfb (btw i still like the whole endtimes overall), but now that i have done so i have to admit i would have been better off to look for it way earlier. Itīs a nice relief to whfb and to the feeling that you always have to stay oon pace with the everchanging meta. Not saying it is better but if youīre looking for alternatives it might be just it, especially as you can play it with many WHFB armies and donīt have to buy new minis.

HelloKitty
25-12-2014, 15:21
Anytime you change something there will always be people that get mad and threaten to or actually do quit.

Spiney Norman
25-12-2014, 15:41
First, from the point of view of fluff. Background and the warhammer universe were a major plus on the decision why Iīve started playing WHFB in the first place, so destroying everything I liked in that regard for the sake of some socalled "needed" advancement of the story has upset me a great deal. Donīt understand this "advancement of story" anyway. If I`m playing in a WWII setting, thatīs the setting. I donīt need it to be radically changed later on in any way. If I want a different setting, I prefer to go and play another game.

I think people need to be a little more honest in their reactions, it's fine to say 'I dislike the specific details of the story line' but complaining about the fact that the setting is moving at all is simply disingenuous, warhammer has never been a completely static setting, it is not, and has never pretended to be a historical wargame set in a fantasy universe where everything is fixed. New factions have been added at various stages, new stories and battles have been added every edition with new army books. I think the thing here is uncertainty, the story here is currently in flux and we simply don't know where it will end. It's probably a good idea to wait until the end of the story before pronouncing your final judgement on it.


Second, from the gameplay perspective, itīs equally bad. The changes are pushing the game to some kind of WHFB Apocalypse/Storm of Magic mix, but not as optional add ons. As with the background, the original, mass battle style of gameplay is what made me start playing WHFB in the first play. Totally changing it in the opposite directions has upset me a lot too.

This is something of an exaggeration I think, just because a few of the games factions now have the option to field one character for a lot of points doesn't mean that all games always look like that. I still see plenty of undead armies that don't feature nagash (whether or not they use the undead legion rules) and the majority of elf players understand what a douche it would make them if they turned up with Malekith. I'm still playing a lot of games where we ignore the end times stuff entirely so suggesting that End times games with crazy magic and Uber characters is somehow now normative seems somewhat incredible to me.

It might be that wfb is heading in that direction (40k went that way after all), but we're still a way off from that at the moment.

Fear Ghoul
25-12-2014, 19:10
Hi over-exaggeration guy, nice to meet you :)

What's exaggerated about my statement? The High Elves and Dark Elves have hated each other for longer than almost all real nations have even existed. For nearly 6000 years these two nations have waged a war more bitter and entrenched than anything in our history, and all because Malekith had a completely unfounded belief that he should rule above all others to such an extent that he murdered anyone who disagreed with him. During this time the Dark Elves have inflicted millions of casualties on the High Elves through frequent battles/skirmishes/assassinations, and directly instigated the destruction of large parts of Ulthuan through a foiled attempt to destroy the world. The Dark Elves have also demonstrated themselves to be amongst the cruelest civilization ever to grace the Warhammer world, such that the Phoenix Kings prefer to commit suicide than be taken prisoner, and they have to constantly raid for slaves amongst purportedly innocent populations in order to offset their staggering consumption rate. Now all of a sudden we are expected to believe that these are the good guys, and all because Asuryan is apparently a massive troll? At least the Imperium in 40k has the excuse that it's evil actions are justified for the greater good, and that every other alternative would lead to much worse outcomes for Mankind. What is the excuse of Malekith and Asuryan?

Of course all of the above started to make sense when I heard that Matt Ward wrote End Times: Khaine. I guess he just had to have one last laugh at the fanbase before he left GW.


Hitler would have done that too, if the technological means had existed at the time. Doesn't mean that all Germans felt the same way. (refer back to first quote)

Preposterous speculation.


I don't think you actually have any understanding whatsoever of these two characters if you think that's their only difference.

Two characters that decided they'd rather destroy their former kingdoms (and everyone else) than allow them to be ruled by others? They both use Dark Magic as well...


Anytime you change something there will always be people that get mad and threaten to or actually do quit.

Anytime you don't change something there will always be people that get mad and threaten to or actually do quit.


I think people need to be a little more honest in their reactions, it's fine to say 'I dislike the specific details of the story line' but complaining about the fact that the setting is moving at all is simply disingenuous

That depends entirely on whether you believe it should move forward or not.


warhammer has never been a completely static setting, it is not, and has never pretended to be a historical wargame set in a fantasy universe where everything is fixed.

Just because Fantasy has never been a completely static setting before doesn't mean it shouldn't be now. End Times represents by far the greatest series of background advances/retcons since Storm of Chaos, which itself was the largest series of advances (not retcons) since 4th edition. Not all changes are equivalent.


New factions have been added at various stages, new stories and battles have been added every edition with new army books. I think the thing here is uncertainty, the story here is currently in flux and we simply don't know where it will end. It's probably a good idea to wait until the end of the story before pronouncing your final judgement on it.

I'm not sure what new factions you are referring to, but Lizardmen already existed as far back 3rd edition (although not as slaves to the Slann), the Ogres already existed, and Vampires Counts/Tomb Kings were quite consistent with the previous Undead background.

The opening segment of a fictional work has responsibility for getting the consumer interested, and has to succeed because you otherwise might decide to invest your time elsewhere. For that reason a bad opener is much worse for a story and tells you much more about the author's writing abilities than a bad ending ever will. Therefore it is perfectly justifiable for someone to pass judgement based on the opening act, even if later segments would have turned out to be much better, because the author failed at their most important job (audience retention). In any case it is comparatively rare for a fictional work to start off rubbish and later become great, so you could also argue that people are right from a purely statistical perspective.


This is something of an exaggeration I think, just because a few of the games factions now have the option to field one character for a lot of points doesn't mean that all games always look like that. I still see plenty of undead armies that don't feature nagash (whether or not they use the undead legion rules) and the majority of elf players understand what a douche it would make them if they turned up with Malekith. I'm still playing a lot of games where we ignore the end times stuff entirely so suggesting that End times games with crazy magic and Uber characters is somehow now normative seems somewhat incredible to me.

It might be that wfb is heading in that direction (40k went that way after all), but we're still a way off from that at the moment.

So what you're saying is that End Times isn't bad because it can be ignored, and because things could get worse? High praise indeed.

Voss
25-12-2014, 19:44
Eh, I find the story flux not to be much of a problem at all. Whether the game, setting and multiple armies are going to even be recognizable at the end of it is the real problem. While I personally love the idea of one elf army to rule them all, ditching superfluous undead and reuniting chaos, I really want to know if that stuff is actually going to stick. And if the game is to devolve into Mega-Karl and friends kipping at the Hall of Justice, and occasionally rushing out to battle Ultrazord Nagash at the Battlepits of Old Altdorf. I'd hate to see that almost as much as Retcon 2, the re-re-retconning, which makes this all completely pointless and all the duplicate subfactions go back to their copypasta armies like nothing ever happened.

Spiney Norman
25-12-2014, 19:54
So what you're saying is that End Times isn't bad because it can be ignored, and because things could get worse? High praise indeed.

That's not at all what I'm saying, I'm saying that if you don't like the way the end times is going then rage-quitting the game based on a potentially false assumption of how the story will end or that all of this will be a permanent change to the story/rules is melodramatic and premature.

There are plenty of people who love what is going on with the end times, I'm one of them, even if I prefer to make a few minor tweaks to the rules (like ignoring the magic changes in ET: Khaine). But those who don't like it at least have the option of ignoring what is currently a fairly minor supplement/campaign series.

The end times is entirely supplementary and as such is NOT representative of the whole of warhammer, so jacking in warhammer because the end times exists and other people are having fun with it seems a little petulant.

Drasanil
25-12-2014, 20:07
And if the game is to devolve into Mega-Karl and friends kipping at the Hall of Justice, and occasionally rushing out to battle Ultrazord Nagash at the Battlepits of Old Altdorf.

Now I want to see that, preferably in cartoon form, on saturday mornings. Get on it GW!

Voss
25-12-2014, 20:08
The end times is entirely supplementary and as such is NOT representative of the whole of warhammer,
Wait, serious question here: what makes you think so?

ET is really, honestly the only Warhammer being sold since May. There is no 'non end times warhammer' being produced, and given the company's typical lack of communication I've seen zero things that indicate that this is 'just a supplement' in any fashion.

Which is an interesting thing to say anyway, since supplements on the 40k side were either integrated into the rules (escalation) or are completely usable and non-optional things in their own right (ig scions, various SM companies, de covens, whatever)

But this isn't alternate universe stuff. It either has to be carried forward, or completely and immediately given the 'storm of chaos' treatment, and the latter would make the entire exercise and many thousands of currencies completely wasted (both in terms of production and sales) and genarate massive amounts of ill will.

Scammel
25-12-2014, 20:36
But this isn't alternate universe stuff. It either has to be carried forward, or completely and immediately given the 'storm of chaos' treatment, and the latter would make the entire exercise and many thousands of currencies completely wasted (both in terms of production and sales) and genarate massive amounts of ill will.

Why? Surely there would be zero scope for 30k if this was the case? Why can't 'then and now' rulesets sit quite happily side-by-side?

Voss
25-12-2014, 21:01
Why? Surely there would be zero scope for 30k if this was the case? Why can't 'then and now' rulesets sit quite happily side-by-side?

Because 30k isn't alternate universe stuff either. :shifty:
And there is a reason the main studio isn't doing 30k, and I really can't see the main studio trying to juggle multiple versions of their less successful game. That seems all kinds of disastrous.

But the basic idea that seems to be proposed here is GW wanted to get people excited about warhammer again, reinvigorate it with this big event and once it is over, the plan is to just... What, yank the rug from under people? Seems crazy, even by their standards.

Fear Ghoul
25-12-2014, 21:47
That's not at all what I'm saying, I'm saying that if you don't like the way the end times is going then rage-quitting the game based on a potentially false assumption of how the story will end or that all of this will be a permanent change to the story/rules is melodramatic and premature.

As I already stated the ending of End Times is at this moment entirely irrelevant, although based on similar incidents I have no great expectation that it won't be utterly terrible. The point is that the current developments are bad in execution, concept, and philosophy, and therefore probably shouldn't exist. But hell my approach to art is almost entirely wasted on people, considering most people I know seriously believe the next Star Wars will not only be good but is also a good idea.


The end times is entirely supplementary and as such is NOT representative of the whole of warhammer, so jacking in warhammer because the end times exists and other people are having fun with it seems a little petulant.

You have completely missed the focus of the complaints being made. The new background is not supplementary, and as such if you want to be involved in Fantasy you have to admit all this new material as canon.


Why? Surely there would be zero scope for 30k if this was the case? Why can't 'then and now' rulesets sit quite happily side-by-side?

The major difference between the two is that people buying into Chaos Marines/Traitor Legions in 40k/30k already knew the background when they started, because it had been stated in their codexes and thoroughly fleshed out over two decades of 40k publications. By contrast people in Fantasy bought into a particular version of the background which is now being changed under their feet without advanced warning. "You want to play a battle where Zacharias the Everliving is trying to advance the aims of his master Nagash, like in the background? Tough! We've changed him completely so that now he's an idiot who doesn't serve Nagash at all and as a result is dead". I can only imagine the level of rage-quitting that would occur if GW changed the background so the Imperium allows Abaddon to take over in order to stop the Tyranids.

Scammel
25-12-2014, 22:10
But the basic idea that seems to be proposed here is GW wanted to get people excited about warhammer again, reinvigorate it with this big event and once it over, the plan is to just... What, yank the rug from under people? Seems crazy, even by their standards.

Heh, 30k's even worse. They're highlighting how faded and dull the current rug is.


"You want to play a battle where Grom/Gorbad/Gorthor is trying to do whatever, like in the background? Tough!"

Raf
26-12-2014, 05:22
All of the End Times books and events reminds me so much of the Godswar by TSR. After deciding to do second edition D&D, there was a period when (almost) all the gods walked as avatars amongst the mortals. TSR killed off a few gods and brought in others. For a few months all sorts of special things happened.

Then a couple of old gods died off. Also, a few new gods emerged. Then there was a new edition of the game and most of the changes applied to the interim period ended. The new edition rewrote a few rules, and nothing much really changed. Looks like GW decided to copy what TSR did 25 years ago.

Erathil
26-12-2014, 06:25
They don't need to be reversed for all three armies to be separate. Why are folks under the impression that TET lists somehow completely replace the existing one-race lists?

Because something along this line has been a concern for a very long time.

GW in general, and fantasy in particular, aren't doing terribly well. One of the suggestions that's been floating around for years is reducing the number of distinct armies. Every End Times book thus far has included rules for playing multiple previous factions as one entity. I suspect this is GW easing players into a 9th edition with between half and two thirds as many distinct armies as current, so they can save on the manufacturing costs of maintaining unpopular armies.

As for End Times... I'm really not sure what I think, just now. I loved Nagash, and Glottkin was fun, but when things swept through my elfies in Khaine I got kind of depressed. On one hand, the narrative is moving forward and a world that's been poised on the brink of destruction for as long as I've been paying attention to it is finally falling past the threshold. On the other hand, people, places, and concepts I love are dying tragically and a lot of what I liked in the world is either going away or changing radically. I'm not going to complain about the narrative moving forward, but I'm not so certain I'm going to like what it becomes by the end.

There's something of a threshold for tragedy in fiction... I can excuse the destruction of characters I love if the story is good enough to carry it, if it serves the plot and the setting and weaves a good tale in the end. It's why I'm waiting for the sixth Song of Ice and Fire book. I'm not entirely sure the End Times is going to break that threshold, but I'm waiting with baited breath to find out.

Scammel
26-12-2014, 08:29
Because something along this line has been a concern for a very long time.

GW in general, and fantasy in particular, aren't doing terribly well. One of the suggestions that's been floating around for years is reducing the number of distinct armies. Every End Times book thus far has included rules for playing multiple previous factions as one entity. I suspect this is GW easing players into a 9th edition with between half and two thirds as many distinct armies as current, so they can save on the manufacturing costs of maintaining unpopular armies.

Effectively, 'Because people on the internet have reckoned it might happen'? Furthermore, I fail to see how savings are made on unpopular armies when the TET books haven't made any models, rules or rulebooks redundant.

Kakapo42
26-12-2014, 11:30
The new background is not supplementary, and as such if you want to be involved in Fantasy you have to admit all this new material as canon.

This. After a lot of thought, I've come to the conclusion that this is my biggest problem with the End Times series. I am something of a storyteller at heart, and creating and sharing stories is a big part of how I enjoy this hobby. The End Times background is fundamentally incompatible with those stories I had crated and enjoyed based on previous background, and I enjoy those a lot more than the End Times background. I don't want to accept them as canon (and indeed refuse to recognise them as such, even if everyone else seems to), but if I don't then I'm effectively a background outcast, and run into difficulty sharing and telling the background stories I want to because they don't fit with the End Times background and so I fear that they will be looked down upon and/or ignored (at best) by the greater Warhammer Community because of it. I can simply keep them to myself, but then I wouldn't feel like they're being all they can - stories exist to be told after all.

If GW didn't explicitly push and state that the End Times background was to be a permanent core background element, if they just afforded it the same legitimacy as a Black Library novel, kept it's canon status up in the air and/or made it only an example of one potential outcome for the Warhammer setting out of many, and let hobbyists freely decide for themselves if they wanted to accept it or not, then I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it. But as it stands now, I feel like it's being forced upon me when I don't want it.

I suppose it might almost be a little bit like the rules for Unbound or allies in 40k. As I understand it a major point of concern amongst those who disagree with them is that they're explicitly a part of the core rules and not explicitly an optional supplement to the core rules, and while you can choose not to use them, it means potentially forgoing a lot of games and/or opponents. I think I might feel a similar way, in that I don't like that the End Times series is being explicitly made to be a part of the core background instead of an optional extra like, say, a Black Library novel might be considered to be, and if I choose to ignore the End Times background (which I am) then the audience for my own background is considerably more limited (which threatens my enjoyment of the hobby, as like I said sharing the background stories I come up with is a big part of how I get enjoyment from this hobby).

Chadjabdoul
26-12-2014, 13:55
So, once upon a time, GW shareholders became unhappy with the money Fantasy was making for them. After a series of discussions that involved the option to ditch Fantasy completely what was decided is what we are currently experiencing. This is no assumption, as Harry and Hastings, Fantasy's rumour gurus, have explained over the last couple of years.

It seems the main focus is to reduce the number of factions. Two choices, Undead and Chaos were the easiest ones, as they used to be combined anyway. A united Human faction (which Harry has hinted at in his "Chaos vs Humans" post) was also not too hard. Press Empire and Brettonnia into a state where they unite or perish. Also, erase Kislev, Estalia, Tilea and Border Princes off the map, turning them into something similar to the dark lands. Generic wasteland were baddies roam.

The united Elves faction was a bit trickier. Armies that were always distinct, with rich background and history, and two of them hating each other. Here, unfortunately storytelling felt a bit forced and not as natural. I find hard to believe a story about "a new beginning" with a race finally united when the person who caused the divide in the first place not only alive but leading them too. I have not read the novel but the main storybook simply forgets aspects of the background if they don't suit the story it's trying to tell.

Personally, I loved Nagash as it gave a global point of view, and signaled big changes ahead. Glottkin was interesting even though it didn't excite me as much. Now I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the new setting to make an overall judgement.

My main concern however, is that GW is creating a new Warhammer World where the only stuff that exists is what they have plastic miniatures for. Estalia and Tilea were destroyed in a sentence, without any stories of how it happenned or brave dukes trying to save their city-states, and fail in the end. A busy Altdorf street, or a proud city on the coast of Ulthuan, were not part of the game but enriched the setting. Armies and soldiers were part of a world that also contained guilds and bakers. A new setting where everything that lives is what is already represented in plastic and accounted for might turn more people off than attract new fans.

Sure The End Times is an interesting story, in a world that remained stagnant for too long, and change can be welcome. If it leads us to a new setting where imagination can thrive as easily as in the old one then it will be successful. Otherwise it will be a panicked attempt to revive a patient, similar to what TSR tried to do before it gave up.

Scammel
26-12-2014, 13:59
This. After a lot of thought, I've come to the conclusion that this is my biggest problem with the End Times series. I am something of a storyteller at heart, and creating and sharing stories is a big part of how I enjoy this hobby. The End Times background is fundamentally incompatible with those stories I had crated and enjoyed based on previous background, and I enjoy those a lot more than the End Times background.

Um, how? I honestly don't get it. Every mote of background in every armybook is still 100% valid, just as the stories of Grom, Gorthor and Gorbad are.

Spiney Norman
26-12-2014, 14:56
You have completely missed the focus of the complaints being made. The new background is not supplementary, and as such if you want to be involved in Fantasy you have to admit all this new material as canon.

Rubbish, even supposing the lore changes with the end times books aren't retconned out of existence as soon as the whole thing is over like its predecessor Storm of Chaos, you can easily set your games in a pre-end times setting. A wide range of the characters available in normal warhammer are dead in the present time line, I hav to play a 'historical' game if I want to use Grom or Azhag or Gorbad Ironclaw, I don't really see Zacharias the everliving or good-guy Tyrion as being any different from that. No-one says 'woe is me I can't ever use my Gorbad Ironclaw model again because there's a story in the O&G codex that says some empire dude killed him'.

Explore the game however you want, if you are deriving your sense of satisfaction of the game from how other people play it then you're in big trouble.

Voss
26-12-2014, 15:25
Um, how? I honestly don't get it. Every mote of background in every armybook is still 100% valid, just as the stories of Grom, Gorthor and Gorbad are.

Right now? Yes. You can entirely stick your fingers in your ears and hum real loud.

In 6 or 7 months when 9th happens? Well, maybe not. That is the threshold- when ET is 'over,' and we get to find out what decision was (already) made: either GW chucks the new stuff or supplants existing material. I can't see them successfully having it both ways.

I suppose I can see them trying, I guess, with all elves having a BFF box checked in the allies chart and the new Big Kits in floating 'Lords of War' slots in 9th edition army books, and otherwise just printing army books as normal, with commentary that to have a really up-to-date elven army you should really go out and buy all the elf army books and used them together, but I can't see that really going over well with the customer base.


Though, in full honesty, I should confess my perspective is skewed by not caring about the characters, but about the armies and the game. I find almost all warhammer characters flat, lifeless and uninteresting, at least partially because GW successfully trained me to completely ignore SCs for 15-20 years.

Scammel
26-12-2014, 15:42
Right now? Yes. You can entirely stick your fingers in your ears and hum real loud.

In 6 or 7 months when 9th happens? Well, maybe not. That is the threshold- when ET is 'over,' and we get to find out what decision was (already) made: either GW chucks the new stuff or supplants existing material. I can't see them successfully having it both ways.

Except that TET supplants nothing! You think pre-TET Karl Franz won't still be pre-TET Karl Franz?

Voss
26-12-2014, 15:45
Except that TET supplants nothing! You think pre-TET Karl Franz won't still be pre-TET Karl Franz?

Don't care about Carly. At all. Shoot him in the head, set him on fire, murder his children. (hence my first post way back up at #56- 'don't care about the story, but are the game changes going to stick?')

I care about functional rules for a combined undead army and a combined chaos army. Those are either going to still exist (making separate army books for their subfactions redundant, especially in the case of undead legions, which are strictly better (desperately needed to make the TK part of the Undead viable) and more interesting) or cease to exist, pissing on whatever hopes for warhammer I had left. I care about that a lot.

Scammel
26-12-2014, 16:15
Don't care about Carly. At all. Shoot him in the head, set him on fire, murder his children. (hence my first post way back up at #56- 'don't care about the story, but are the game changes going to stick?')

Really? Just drop the argument entirely and suggest you never cared?


I care about functional rules for a combined undead army and a combined chaos army. Those are either going to still exist (making separate army books for their subfactions redundant, especially in the case of undead legions, which are strictly better (desperately needed to make the TK part of the Undead viable) and more interesting) or cease to exist, pissing on whatever hopes for warhammer I had left. I care about that a lot.

I don't get why the status quo absolutely can't remain the case. You're making a false dichotomy between TET and armybooks that may not necessarily be the case at all.

Andy p
26-12-2014, 17:47
I'm struck by how glad I am that the external dictates of others don't entirely inform my individually subjective experience of a fictional setting I am invested in.

That probably sounds really arrogant and sorry if it does, but I can't think of anyone in my local gaming community who, upon me writing my own background and narratives would claim that I can't because it doesn't fit or isn't supported by the latest book of fluff released by a company.

But maybe I'm just really lucky when it comes to the people in my area.

SuperHappyTime
26-12-2014, 18:31
I don't get why the status quo absolutely can't remain the case. You're making a false dichotomy between TET and armybooks that may not necessarily be the case at all.


I think he's just afraid (or will be very annoyed if) GW re-splits the armies after TET.


So, once upon a time, GW shareholders became unhappy with the money Fantasy was making for them. After a series of discussions that involved the option to ditch Fantasy completely what was decided is what we are currently experiencing. This is no assumption, as Harry and Hastings, Fantasy's rumour gurus, have explained over the last couple of years.

It seems the main focus is to reduce the number of factions. Two choices, Undead and Chaos were the easiest ones, as they used to be combined anyway. A united Human faction (which Harry has hinted at in his "Chaos vs Humans" post) was also not too hard. Press Empire and Brettonnia into a state where they unite or perish. Also, erase Kislev, Estalia, Tilea and Border Princes off the map, turning them into something similar to the dark lands. Generic wasteland were baddies roam.

The united Elves faction was a bit trickier. Armies that were always distinct, with rich background and history, and two of them hating each other. Here, unfortunately storytelling felt a bit forced and not as natural. I find hard to believe a story about "a new beginning" with a race finally united when the person who caused the divide in the first place not only alive but leading them too. I have not read the novel but the main storybook simply forgets aspects of the background if they don't suit the story it's trying to tell.

Personally, I loved Nagash as it gave a global point of view, and signaled big changes ahead. Glottkin was interesting even though it didn't excite me as much. Now I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the new setting to make an overall judgement.

My main concern however, is that GW is creating a new Warhammer World where the only stuff that exists is what they have plastic miniatures for. Estalia and Tilea were destroyed in a sentence, without any stories of how it happenned or brave dukes trying to save their city-states, and fail in the end. A busy Altdorf street, or a proud city on the coast of Ulthuan, were not part of the game but enriched the setting. Armies and soldiers were part of a world that also contained guilds and bakers. A new setting where everything that lives is what is already represented in plastic and accounted for might turn more people off than attract new fans.

Sure The End Times is an interesting story, in a world that remained stagnant for too long, and change can be welcome. If it leads us to a new setting where imagination can thrive as easily as in the old one then it will be successful. Otherwise it will be a panicked attempt to revive a patient, similar to what TSR tried to do before it gave up.

Looking back at the later 8th edition updates, the elves were made to look so similar to each other that going to a unified elves wouldn't cause too many to lose models (spearmen, bow-people, light cav, other near equivalents).

We may get a story behind Tilea and Estalia in the Skaven ET book, but I'm not holding my breath either. But there wasn't an army for Spain or Italy, there wasn't new story or flavor dedicated to them, and there wasn't a pouring outcry for some. In exchange, the world is getting closer. The Lizzies are likely on the move to the old world, the ogres have moved east, the dark elves are somewhere more than halfway around the world, and the high elves dont have to continue being uncaring ********** and actually have a stake in protecting the old world.

Bigman
26-12-2014, 18:47
So, once upon a time, GW shareholders became unhappy with the money Fantasy was making for them. After a series of discussions that involved the option to ditch Fantasy completely what was decided is what we are currently experiencing. This is no assumption, as Harry and Hastings, Fantasy's rumour gurus, have explained over the last couple of years.

It seems the main focus is to reduce the number of factions. Two choices, Undead and Chaos were the easiest ones, as they used to be combined anyway. A united Human faction (which Harry has hinted at in his "Chaos vs Humans" post) was also not too hard. Press Empire and Brettonnia into a state where they unite or perish. Also, erase Kislev, Estalia, Tilea and Border Princes off the map, turning them into something similar to the dark lands. Generic wasteland were baddies roam.

The united Elves faction was a bit trickier. Armies that were always distinct, with rich background and history, and two of them hating each other. Here, unfortunately storytelling felt a bit forced and not as natural. I find hard to believe a story about "a new beginning" with a race finally united when the person who caused the divide in the first place not only alive but leading them too. I have not read the novel but the main storybook simply forgets aspects of the background if they don't suit the story it's trying to tell.

Personally, I loved Nagash as it gave a global point of view, and signaled big changes ahead. Glottkin was interesting even though it didn't excite me as much. Now I'm waiting for the dust to settle on the new setting to make an overall judgement.

My main concern however, is that GW is creating a new Warhammer World where the only stuff that exists is what they have plastic miniatures for. Estalia and Tilea were destroyed in a sentence, without any stories of how it happenned or brave dukes trying to save their city-states, and fail in the end. A busy Altdorf street, or a proud city on the coast of Ulthuan, were not part of the game but enriched the setting. Armies and soldiers were part of a world that also contained guilds and bakers. A new setting where everything that lives is what is already represented in plastic and accounted for might turn more people off than attract new fans.

Sure The End Times is an interesting story, in a world that remained stagnant for too long, and change can be welcome. If it leads us to a new setting where imagination can thrive as easily as in the old one then it will be successful. Otherwise it will be a panicked attempt to revive a patient, similar to what TSR tried to do before it gave up.

Estalia and Tilea will be featured in the upcoming book.

The next ET (please ET, not TET..) is Skaven and will tell their story, in detail, of how they sacked Estalia and Tilea.

Then we wrap up End a Times in book 5 with ET:-Archaeon.

Voss
26-12-2014, 19:08
Really? Just drop the argument entirely and suggest you never cared?
No. Rightly pointing out that I was never making that argument. Read back to my posts over the last 20, not other people's. I care about the effect on the game and armies, not characters.
You seemed to grasp that earlier when you brought up 'then and now' rulesets. (Which wouldn't work either, simply because its too much work for GW to manage).


I don't get why the status quo absolutely can't remain the case. You're making a false dichotomy between TET and armybooks that may not necessarily be the case at all.
How is it false? They can either continue the good combined undead list, abandon the combined list or have the combined list simultaneously with a terrible TK (and passable VC) list, but what would be the advantage in that? Anyone with any sense would use the combined list, even if they still only took TK units.

And abandoning the combined list just kicks people in the teeth: 'Hope you enjoyed a decent army for a few months. Now, enjoy being put back on the bottom where you belong'


I'm struck by how glad I am that the external dictates of others don't entirely inform my individually subjective experience of a fictional setting I am invested in.

That probably sounds really arrogant and sorry if it does, but I can't think of anyone in my local gaming community who, upon me writing my own background and narratives would claim that I can't because it doesn't fit or isn't supported by the latest book of fluff released by a company.

But maybe I'm just really lucky when it comes to the people in my area.
Not really, and not arrogant at all. Your own background and narratives only affect you, after all.

Scammel
26-12-2014, 20:10
(Which wouldn't work either, simply because its too much work for GW to manage).

I find that very hard to believe. The studio has already demonstrated how merged lists, with a colossal amount of narrative baggage, can already cover most armies in the game in three books that, thanks to the nature of the merged lists themselves, require little to no updates. This is also the same studio that also recently opted to effectively ditch its third core game.

(You'll note I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said studio - GW itself does seem, after all, to be managing perfectly fine producing expansive 'Then and now' narratives for 40k).


How is it false? They can either continue the good combined undead list, abandon the combined list or have the combined list simultaneously with a terrible TK (and passable VC) list, but what would be the advantage in that? Anyone with any sense would use the combined list, even if they still only took TK units.

The advantage is to have two clearly delineated settings, both with their own narratives and gameplay differences.


And abandoning the combined list just kicks people in the teeth: 'Hope you enjoyed a decent army for a few months. Now, enjoy being put back on the bottom where you belong'

A: Let's not pretend that GW give the slightest hoot for (or even possess awareness of) army power levels, and B: We've clearly established that either route results in ********, so why pick when we can clearly see a third way that's in operation as we speak?

Galushi
27-12-2014, 00:08
Also the success of an Army (ie: Tomb Kings) does not HAVE to depend on the availability of combined lists (ie: Undead Legions). Even if they remove the Legion lists, some change in 9th edition could make TK's more competitive naturally, or even when their 9th edition book comes out.

Personally I think the combined armies are neat even though they feel a bit overpowered since you get to combine much greater synergy without any increased points cost. The main thing i dislike though are the Khaine's Magic rules.

I haven't bought any new end times models that were outside of my existing armies so I wouldn't be too upset if combined lists went away, but I doubt GW want's to give up their ability to sell many more models for people to include in their established armies. Like selling Skull Cannons to WoC players. They did it with 40k with allies, so it's not a huge stretch to think they'll do it with fantasy.

Kakapo42
27-12-2014, 11:10
Um, how? I honestly don't get it. Every mote of background in every armybook is still 100% valid, just as the stories of Grom, Gorthor and Gorbad are.

Not quite. While the large majority of background in the army books is indeed still fully valid, there are a few elements in the previous background that were left relatively ambiguous and open to multiple interpretations, but in the End Times background are given only one (the nature of the Green Knight being the most prominent example I can think of), and if you had background of your own based on an interpretation different to the official 'answer' given in the End Times background, then it won't really fit well. Of course, in fairness this is by no means isolated to the End Times series, and is by and large a general trend of the whole of 8th edition's background, and one that I don't agree with. But that is a subject for another time.


I can't think of anyone in my local gaming community who, upon me writing my own background and narratives would claim that I can't because it doesn't fit or isn't supported by the latest book of fluff released by a company.

But maybe I'm just really lucky when it comes to the people in my area.

Then you are indeed very fortunate. I will be very happy if I end up with a local hobby community who are similar, but I have grave concerns that those I come across will not be as forgiving (although that could just be down to prolonged exposure to the internet causing a general lack of faith in people).

Fear Ghoul
27-12-2014, 16:18
Um, how? I honestly don't get it. Every mote of background in every armybook is still 100% valid, just as the stories of Grom, Gorthor and Gorbad are.

Incorrect. End Times have already introduced several huge retcons and many smaller ones as well, almost none of which improve the lore in any way. Also there is a very large difference between playing a dead character with a complete and and thematic story arc, versus playing a beloved character that was alive just weeks ago and has now been snuffed out for no good reason and in a manner entirely inconsistent with their previous lore.


Rubbish, even supposing the lore changes with the end times books aren't retconned out of existence as soon as the whole thing is over like its predecessor Storm of Chaos, you can easily set your games in a pre-end times setting.

No, I can't just set my stories in pre-End Times because the characters and actions that occur within that time period are almost completely unrelated to what came after. I've already given an example with regards to Zacharias that I can't be bothered repeating, but there are many others as well.


No-one says 'woe is me I can't ever use my Gorbad Ironclaw model again because there's a story in the O&G codex that says some empire dude killed him'.

That's because you are making a frankly stupid argument that ignores almost everything being criticized. Everybody who plays Gorbad already knew he was dead when they set out to play him and his character has remained static for as long as most can remember, which is more than can be said for many of those characters that have been killed recently.


Except that TET supplants nothing! You think pre-TET Karl Franz won't still be pre-TET Karl Franz?

They quite clearly are entirely incompatible, considering one is a probably doomed but heroic man who alone can't change the fate of the world, and the other is Superman.


That probably sounds really arrogant and sorry if it does, but I can't think of anyone in my local gaming community who, upon me writing my own background and narratives would claim that I can't because it doesn't fit or isn't supported by the latest book of fluff released by a company.

The major problem with this approach of course is that the moment everyone tries to have their own version of Fantasy there ceases to be a community, and with no community for an ostensibly social activity the hobby dies.


(You'll note I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said studio - GW itself does seem, after all, to be managing perfectly fine producing expansive 'Then and now' narratives for 40k).

End Times is not comparable with Horus Heresy, mainly because Horus Heresy is historical and its outcome well known whilst End Times are current and its resolution uncertain.

Andy p
27-12-2014, 17:21
Then you are indeed very fortunate. I will be very happy if I end up with a local hobby community who are similar, but I have grave concerns that those I come across will not be as forgiving (although that could just be down to prolonged exposure to the internet causing a general lack of faith in people).

I work two jobs, one of which is retail. Trust me that a lack of faith in people is the only trait you take away from retail.

But my gaming community is different. If you don't already belong to a community, you won't know whether those grave concerns are realised or not.



The major problem with this approach of course is that the moment everyone tries to have their own version of Fantasy there ceases to be a community, and with no community for an ostensibly social activity the hobby dies.


I don't think you're being very realistic about this. Could you outline how this might happen with comparative examples? Bearing in mind that I should have qualified that as fluff I've written for a campaign perhaps, or for a particular themed army. Or the setting of a game we're playing. I wasn't suggesting an overhaul of the entire background of the game in terms of it's structure.

I'm just having a difficult time perceiving a gaming environment where the canon is some iron-clad law of the land and any deviation is met with objection and resistance. Now I accept the possibility that you or others may live in areas with such hard-edged and aggressive communities, but I think it is a slim possibility. In the years I've played this game and all the people I've met, most of them cared more about the mechanics of the game and how they worked (or usually didn't) than if someone had personalised fluff for their armies and whether or not that fit with the current setting of GW's fluff machine. For sure people might mock and deride if someone stretches the structure of the setting to ridiculous lengths with the background of their army or a campaign story, but I doubt many would enforce that ribbing with actual resistance.

Now there could be an argument for the power of influence over the collective consciousness and people slowly assimilating this background into their idea of what is 'correct' but that doesn't seem to be the argument being made here and besides that still comes under the heading of "group of unlikely-to-exist-enforcing-will type people who don't like fluff deviations" which I find plausible, but not likely.

I could see the issue if this were like Alan Moore re-writing Watchmen and shoving a version of it down people's throats where Rorschach politely goes around leafleting against the aspects of people he objects to. But it patently isn't, because this is a game where you are actively encouraged by the creators to make your own narratives and stories within the setting of said game and there is no restriction against what moment in time of that setting it might be.

I'm just curious about who or what is stopping you using the background you like?

Voss
27-12-2014, 17:39
I find that very hard to believe. The studio has already demonstrated how merged lists, with a colossal amount of narrative baggage, can already cover most armies in the game in three books that, thanks to the nature of the merged lists themselves, require little to no updates. This is also the same studio that also recently opted to effectively ditch its third core game.

(You'll note I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said studio - GW itself does seem, after all, to be managing perfectly fine producing expansive 'Then and now' narratives for 40k).
I have no idea why you think 'studio' is different from GW. If you think Forgeworld is going to get involved (assuming you're going for HH for the 'then and now' narratives,, which I'll point out is completely different from an alternate universe 'now and now' narrative, see below) I'm going to politely suggest you're off your feed. They just gave Warhammer Forge the boot. They certainly are not going to sign up for more Warhammer immediately after closing the Warhammer arm of FW.
As for the end of the Hobbit, that was a token effort from day one. That isn't going to result in a landfall of resources for Warhammer.



The advantage is to have two clearly delineated settings, both with their own narratives and gameplay differences.
That is more work, hardly an advantage for them, and 'own narratives' isn't possible without alternate universe nonsense. End Times is part and parcel of the Warhammer timeline: the current events.
It is also is way to split the player base, which is hardly an advantage to anyone.



A: Let's not pretend that GW give the slightest hoot for (or even possess awareness of) army power levels, and B: We've clearly established that either route results in ********, so why pick when we can clearly see a third way that's in operation as we speak?
Running with the end times banner results in less complaints, however. That ship has already sailed, and they've already trampled the hopes of people who care about the fluff. The narrative isn't going to be reversed, as the novel line and background is already running with everything established in End Times (and the books leading up to it, since Nagash started off with the Everchild, the Grand Theogonist and those other people already kidnapped in prior books, and various dark elf (and high elf) machinations were already in play before Khaine and so on. End Times ran with the existing narrative and it isn't coming back. Retconning it will keep those people offended, and also offend people who actually got re-engaged with the game, which was the entire point of End Times. Trying to dance around the End Times means they lose twice.

As to your last point, the complete lack of any non-End Times releases for 8 months and counting is clearly establishing their ability to do both simultaneously. :rolleyes:

Scammel
27-12-2014, 19:09
End Times have already introduced several huge retcons and many smaller ones as well, almost none of which improve the lore in any way.

Name them. Give me an actual retcon, not chronological advancement.


They quite clearly are entirely incompatible, considering one is a probably doomed but heroic man who alone can't change the fate of the world, and the other is Superman.


You've misread. How is pre-TET Karl Franz now different from pre-TET Karl Franz? More importantly, what is actually stopping you from playing with him? It certainly isn't lack of rules or backstory.


End Times is not comparable with Horus Heresy, mainly because Horus Heresy is historical and its outcome well known whilst End Times are current and its resolution uncertain.

The comparison isn't between TET and the HH, at least not directly - the comparison is between the 'then and now' systems for both 40k and Fantasy that currently exist. 40k seems to be able to handle two versions of Abaddon (one with an uncertain future within the setting) quite happily, so what's wrong with Karl Franz getting the same treatment?


'own narratives' isn't possible without alternate universe nonsense.

I'm not sure how to respond, because I've no idea why you keep bringing up 'alternate universes'. I take it you're not suggesting that the HH is an alternate universe to 40K? One setting ends at a particular point in time, the other begins.


Running with the end times banner results in less complaints, however. That ship has already sailed, and they've already trampled the hopes of people who care about the fluff. The narrative isn't going to be reversed, as the novel line and background is already running with everything established in End Times

The narrative doesn't need to be reversed. You just play/create stories within a different part of it. The Hobbit and all the characters within it are not rendered creatively useless by the existence of LotR.


As to your last point, the complete lack of any non-End Times releases for 8 months and counting is clearly establishing their ability to do both simultaneously.

They don't even particularly need to do both simultaneously. The merged lists don't require updating and the finite number of TET books suggests that the TET narrative itself will have a defined end-point.

Voss
27-12-2014, 22:57
I'm not sure how to respond, because I've no idea why you keep bringing up 'alternate universes'. I take it you're not suggesting that the HH is an alternate universe to 40K? One setting ends at a particular point in time, the other begins.
OK. Here's the difference.
HH happens and ends. Nothing that happens with 30k affects 40K, because of the 10,000 year gap. No narrative actions in any HH book will produce any result other than Horus getting killed and the Emperor getting stuck in the throne, with loyal legions getting split into Chapters and Chaos Legions fleeing to the Eye. For FW to do a HH narrative and GW to do a 40K narrative is easy, because nothing in 40k affects 30k, and nothing in 30k affects 40k because the result is already known, set and built into the 40k narrative.

In current fantasy year (whatever it is) the End Times happen. Based on developments that were already built in the fiction and background. There is only ONE narrative. One. 1. No other narrative. The warhammer narrative is the end times narrative is the warhammer narrative. Volkmar is pops off in warhammer fiction, is killed in Nagash because of that prequel to the ET and is and always will be dead. There is no other narrative, this is the present, the now of warhammer world. People happily having parties in Mousillon in the current timeline in the Warhammer Rulebook and Bretonnian army book are either dead or fled. The ONLY way to have any other narrative line for warhammer is to have some place to pretend that none of this ever happened at all. Which, the only option for that is an alternate universe. Which is stupid, but the only options for 'another narrative'. Because this isn't a set scenario 10,000 years beforehand with a known outcome. It is the current present and future of the existing warhammer timeline. In year XXX (now) Nagash comes back, takes the Wind of Death, Malekith rules over an united elvendom and Teclis does his shenanigans partially successfully. There is no break for everyone to live out their lives according to what was going on in the 8th edition BRB and then somewhere in the nebulous future the End Times happen. It did happen, and is now part of the storyline of Warhammer.

The ONLY other possibilities are Storm of Chaos retcon or alternate universe. There is No Place for
two clearly delineated settings, both with their own narratives and gameplay differences. There is just one. The only way to have two is alternate universe fanfic, and you might as well write in Batman and the Joker as 9 to 5 sanitation workers in Metropolis, because it is just as likely.


The narrative doesn't need to be reversed. You just play/create stories within a different part of it.
Right. So if Timmy wants to use Karl Franz Ascended or his shiny new Nagash model, Bob can either refuse to play and pretend none of it ever happened. Or just play the bloody game with everything that is currently on the table, which includes End Times.

And hence why Fear Ghoul and others are unhappy. Their choices are stick their fingers in their ears and hum, possibly while refusing games, or bail out.


The Hobbit and all the characters within it are not rendered creatively useless by the existence of LotR.
Indeed not. They are part of the same narrative, with a known outcome and time skip. Exactly like HH in the latter respects, and exactly unlike ET.


They don't even particularly need to do both simultaneously.
So... that third way... not so much in operation?


The merged lists don't require updating
Yeah. With a new edition (and presumably) new army books on the horizon, why could there possibly be a need to update the merged lists? I can't imagine.


and the finite number of TET books suggests that the TET narrative itself will have a defined end-point.
No, it will flow right into the narrative background presented in all future game books and fiction.
The dark elves will not teleport back across the sea, ulthuan will not re-emerge from the ocean (or whatever the reason is the high elves are now camping on the Wood Elf lawns), and Nagash will not vanish back into his regenerative state. It will all continue on from everything that has been set up in the last few (and next few) months.

CariadocThorne
27-12-2014, 23:13
The narrative doesn't need to be reversed. You just play/create stories within a different part of it. The Hobbit and all the characters within it are not rendered creatively useless by the existence of LotR.

How will this work once people have their 9th edition army books and no longer have rules for the old characters?

On the bright side, I play Wood Elves, so it'll be 2023 and 10th ed before they update my book and remove Orion. Of course by then he'll be so outdated he'll be unusable even for the casual play he's just about usable in now. Oh well. :rolleyes:

Spiney Norman
27-12-2014, 23:22
Incorrect. End Times have already introduced several huge retcons and many smaller ones as well, almost none of which improve the lore in any way. Also there is a very large difference between playing a dead character with a complete and and thematic story arc, versus playing a beloved character that was alive just weeks ago and has now been snuffed out for no good reason and in a manner entirely inconsistent with their previous lore.



No, I can't just set my stories in pre-End Times because the characters and actions that occur within that time period are almost completely unrelated to what came after. I've already given an example with regards to Zacharias that I can't be bothered repeating, but there are many others as well.

You know what, you're absolutely right, you can't use Zacharias the everliving any more, in any games ever, the GW police are monitoring your local hobby store, your local gaming club and even your living room so that they can pounce on you and take you away if you so much as remove him from your figure case.

Are you for real?



That's because you are making a frankly stupid argument that ignores almost everything being criticized. Everybody who plays Gorbad already knew he was dead when they set out to play him and his character has remained static for as long as most can remember, which is more than can be said for many of those characters that have been killed recently.

Not even remotely, nothing stops you using a dead character in any game you want to play. If the fact that a fluff book exists that tells you that character x has been killed in action stops you from using that character in a game when you really wanted to then that's not the book's fault (nor the author's) it is your fault.



They quite clearly are entirely incompatible, considering one is a probably doomed but heroic man who alone can't change the fate of the world, and the other is Superman.

Incompatible in the sense that you cannot use both Karl Franz and Karl Franz Ascendent in the same army, yes. Incompatible in the sense that because KFAscendent exists you may never again use Karl Franz in a game of warhammer ever, no.



End Times is not comparable with Horus Heresy, mainly because Horus Heresy is historical and its outcome well known whilst End Times are current and its resolution uncertain.

In which case rejoice, because in three months time the final book will be out, the whole thing will be over and your know what happened and be able to go back to using Zacharias the everliving, Karl Franz unascended and whichever other expired characters you like with impunity.


How will this work once people have their 9th edition army books and no longer have rules for the old characters?
This simply won't happen, firstly there are plenty of character in the current crop of army books that are dead in the present time line. For example Volkmar the Grim is dead courtesy of the end times, do you really think Gw will print a 9th edition Empire book without rules for a character from one of their large, plastic kits?

Some of these characters might well be removed assuming that the character in question has no currently available model, but any character that still has a model in the range will definitely have rules printed in their next army book because whatever gw do with the fluff they still want to sell all the product they can.


On the bright side, I play Wood Elves, so it'll be 2023 and 10th ed before they update my book and remove Orion. Of course by then he'll be so outdated he'll be unusable even for the casual play he's just about usable in now. Oh well. :rolleyes:


Oh come on, Orion is worse value now than he was in our last army book, he is by no means competitive in any definition of the word.

CariadocThorne
28-12-2014, 05:22
You know what, you're absolutely right, you can't use Zacharias the everliving any more, in any games ever, the GW police are monitoring your local hobby store, your local gaming club and even your living room so that they can pounce on you and take you away if you so much as remove him from your figure case.
Don't mock. The black vans of the Inquisition are always ready, their eyeless navigators guiding them to the unfaithful and heretical. You never forget the sound of those dread, black doors slamming, the wheels already squeeling as some luckless gamer vanishes never to be seen again, a lone, discarded dice still tumbling where it fell from nerveless hands......

No-one expects the Inquisition.:eek:


This simply won't happen, firstly there are plenty of character in the current crop of army books that are dead in the present time line. For example Volkmar the Grim is dead courtesy of the end times, do you really think Gw will print a 9th edition Empire book without rules for a character from one of their large, plastic kits?

Some of these characters might well be removed assuming that the character in question has no currently available model, but any character that still has a model in the range will definitely have rules printed in their next army book because whatever gw do with the fluff they still want to sell all the product they can.
What is to stop them producing a new kit with Volkmar's successor when they do the empire release in 9th edition? GW have canned characters with models before, including quite recently in 40k (imperial guard)

GW can produce new kits and new exciting characters to replace old ones, so sales isn't a factor here.


Oh come on, Orion is worse value now than he was in our last army book, he is by no means competitive in any definition of the word.
That's why I said he's just about usable in casual play. But a barely useable Orion is still a big improvement on no Orion.

Spiney Norman
28-12-2014, 08:06
Don't mock. The black vans of the Inquisition are always ready, their eyeless navigators guiding them to the unfaithful and heretical. You never forget the sound of those dread, black doors slamming, the wheels already squeeling as some luckless gamer vanishes never to be seen again, a lone, discarded dice still tumbling where it fell from nerveless hands......

No-one expects the Inquisition.:eek:


What is to stop them producing a new kit with Volkmar's successor when they do the empire release in 9th edition? GW have canned characters with models before, including quite recently in 40k (imperial guard)

GW can produce new kits and new exciting characters to replace old ones, so sales isn't a factor here.


You think they'll produce a new plastic war altar kit because Volkmar was killed off in the fluff? Really? That kit is barely one edition old, it may have paid for its molds by now, but it is still one of the newer sets in wfb, I can't see any economic sense in scrapping it so soon.

Besides Glottkin is also dead, and I'm pretty sure his model will still be usable for years to come, they're not going to want to stop selling that any time soon.

Liber
28-12-2014, 10:33
How will this work once people have their 9th edition army books...


Assuming. Assuming, assuming, assuming.

Every thread we have gobs of people throwing 9th ed _____ around, I for one am not convinced that its on any visible horizon. Especially when it comes to army books. Maybe a new edition will drop after the last End Times book. Maybe. My gut says that we will have all the ET books available, to play in and during the last days of the Fantasy world. And then we will have 8th...being (in this case) like playing historicals. Or for a better example: LOTR.


@Spiney - Glottkin isn't really dead.


Edit - also, until the End Times, I honestly thought we (the community) all knew what a retcon was. We don't. Anyone that might be confused is encouraged to use google.

CariadocThorne
28-12-2014, 12:01
Assuming. Assuming, assuming, assuming.

Every thread we have gobs of people throwing 9th ed _____ around, I for one am not convinced that its on any visible horizon. Especially when it comes to army books. Maybe a new edition will drop after the last End Times book. Maybe. My gut says that we will have all the ET books available, to play in and during the last days of the Fantasy world. And then we will have 8th...being (in this case) like playing historicals. Or for a better example: LOTR.

Oh they'll release a new edition soon. And army books too, although whether it'll be the current unified factions, or back to individual factions remains to be seen.

The reason I can say this with such certainty is that the driving force behind GW business strategy is maximum sales revenue for minimum expenditure. Books are perfect.

A minor revision of the existing rules, re-edited to look like a whole new book can be sold for Ģ50 per copy, or even better, sold as an ebook with no production costs.

Army books are the same, and potentially even better if they combine factions. A book containing 3 elven factions can be sold for more than a book with just wood elves, but even though I only play wood elves, I still need to buy it. Again, most of the content can be only a minor revision of the existing material, with some funky, overpowered rules to push any new unit kits, and fluff written by whichever fanboy happens to be in the office at the time.

Books actually make up a much larger portion of many players GW spending than you'd think, and they are relatively easy money for GW.

Leogun_91
28-12-2014, 12:14
Name them. Give me an actual retcon, not chronological advancement.Luthor Harkon is no longer a magical null from the Slann magic and it is not noted as being cured or anything, he just stopped having that trait and he doesn't seem mad either anymore (at least not in the way he was before). I don't mind that retcon but it is a retcon none the less.

Liber
28-12-2014, 12:47
Oh they'll release a new edition soon. And army books too, although whether it'll be the current unified factions, or back to individual factions remains to be seen.

I disagree. I am only taking a guess at the future, but, I doubt we will see 9th edition anything much longer than what anyone would consider 'soon'.

And actually they already are releasing unified books, right now. Its called the End Times series.



Books actually make up a much larger portion of many players GW spending than you'd think, and they are relatively easy money for GW.


Amazing, you knowing what I think :rolleyes:

CountUlrich
28-12-2014, 13:29
I disagree. I am only taking a guess at the future, but, I doubt we will see 9th edition anything much longer than what anyone would consider 'soon'.

And actually they already are releasing unified books, right now. Its called the End Times series.





Amazing, you knowing what I think :rolleyes:

All of the reliable sources - the ones who have virtually perfect records of their rumors, and who broke the ET long before it was released - also say 9th in 2015. I'll believe them over you, thank you very much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CariadocThorne
28-12-2014, 14:48
And actually they already are releasing unified books, right now. Its called the End Times series.

Hence my use of the word "current".

Liber
28-12-2014, 15:07
All of the reliable sources - the ones who have virtually perfect records of their rumors, and who broke the ET long before it was released - also say 9th in 2015. I'll believe them over you, thank you very much.


I wasn't talking to you, or your rumors, so no need for attitude.


That said, care to link these reliable rumor sources saying we will have a 9th ed book soon? Or at all?


I'm being serious, I haven't seen what you're talking about (a spanish blog said something and darnok posted it in rumor roundup) but if you could lay it down it could change my mind.

Liber
28-12-2014, 15:13
Hence my use of the word "current".


You're playing dumb here.

You were saying new books - possibly unified (yes, congratulations you know the End Times is current), I was saying no need for new unified books as that's exactly what the ET already is.

Its one of a few reasons I'm not holding my breath for any new books beyond 2 more for the End Times and a finishing of 8th edition hardback armybook releases (skaven, brettonia...and beastmen i think)

Dr.Zahnfleisch
28-12-2014, 17:53
Some of the conclusions drawn out of the recent fluff retcons and the "new canon" are downright ridiculous. Never ever has fluff prevented a certain unit from being used in a game, as far as my gaming group is concerned (specific scenarios/campaigns aside). There is no such thing as the "one community" that will perish once everyone uses his own background. Warhammer players are divided into many sub-communities that each adhere to their own set of rules. Some people I know are still playing with 7th Ed. rules, for instance.

The fluff is nice and dandy, but let's face it: Most people don't care about it. If they want to use Tyrion or Malus Darkblade in their army, they will keep doing so despite whatever the novels suggest.
People play Warhammer because the miniatures are awesome. Fluff is a nice thing to have, but there is always the option of ignoring/modifying it without any drawbacks. The moment somebody tells me I can't use Zacharias the Everliving (!) because he died in the novel, I will make up a scenario in which he has been brought back by Nagash or some other guy. If they insist, I will gladly look for another opponent - It's really that easy.

I like building my armies according to official fluff, but there is no reason not to invent your own stuff. Heck, I'm bringing Borgio the Besieger back from the dead for my End Times project. With Tilea and Estalia supposedly destroyed, are people no longer allowed to play Dogs of War or Border Prince themed armies?

There are no greater implications. People will keep using their dead characters/armies despite the fluff. I can see why people are getting angry about their favourite character getting the axe, but some people are seriously blowing this out of proportion.

CariadocThorne
28-12-2014, 18:18
You're playing dumb here.

You were saying new books - possibly unified (yes, congratulations you know the End Times is current), I was saying no need for new unified books as that's exactly what the ET already is.

Its one of a few reasons I'm not holding my breath for any new books beyond 2 more for the End Times and a finishing of 8th edition hardback armybook releases (skaven, brettonia...and beastmen i think)

Do you really think that GW will decide not to produce new army books for 9th edition? They make to much money from them not to.

When they release a new edition, they always release new army books at a steady rate throughout the lifetime of that edition, and the end times won't change that, just as the other campaign books and such like in the past didn't.

The only question is whether they will go for unified books like the end-times, but with full army lists, unit entries etc, or stick to the old formula of keeping the armies separate to spread the releases better.

Stegadeth
28-12-2014, 19:04
What if all 9th ed. amounts to is just a consolidation of ET rules and fluff in a slick, new, fat hardcover with some minor rules changes and FAQ'd material in it? That wouldn't take much work at all and I could see that coming in 2015.

Ellecis
28-12-2014, 19:16
I see the ET a little differently than others here. I see this as a tactic by GW to do several things from a business perspective, mostly caused by the need to keep fantasy as a revenue-generating enterprise. I see them doing a few things with ET to accomplish this.

1. Create an renewed interest in Fantasy. GamesWorkshop is first and foremost a miniature company. The books and the rules (which are ridiculously overpriced), while bringing in revenue, are not what drives the business. What generates money for GW are the miniatures. Miniatures are also what create an interest in the game. And the End Times miniatures are freaking fantastic. So fantastic that perhaps they will draw some new players to the hobby, or even bring 40K players to fantasy. This will increase the market for the game by attracting new players.

2. Entice "cross-army" model buying. One tactic of the ET I suspect is to facilitate ways for current players to buy models from less popular armies (Tomb Kings, Wood Elves, Bretonnia). I play High Elves and Skaven (obviously because I bought the Island of Blood set a few years ago as my interest in the hobby was ressurrected from about a decade ago) and I can definitely see myself picking up a Treeman or dryads just for the purpose of an Enternity King army. The same might go for Vampire Counts players picking up some skeleton archers (my friend who plays VC is considering this), or maybe some Ushabti or a chariot or two. Warriors of Chaos players might buy a minotaur or a cygor or whatever. By combining armies, even as part of an "optional" rule set, you entice players to purchase models on a one-off basis, keeping alive those less popular armies. This increases revenue for the game by having existing players spend more.

3. Reduce model costs by creating "multi-kits" for various models. Designing models and creating molds (sp?) for them is an expensive endeavour. One way to off-set the cost is to create a mold for several units by creating interchangeable parts. This way you spread out the large upfront cost of the molds and the design over more purchases. GamesWorkshop has gone in this direction already with many boxes: Dark Riders/Doomfire Warlocks, Eternal Guard/Wild Wood Rangers, Cygor/Ghorgon, and more now with the Mortarchs/Maggoth rider packs (you get the point). Perhaps we will start to see combined boxes in the future for cross-army units. Vampire Counts/Tomb Kings skeleton warriors, Grave Guard/Tomb Guard, High Elf Spearmen/Dark Elf Spearmen. But more importantly we may start to see special characters more and more combined with either regular characters or with other special characters. What's stopping GamesWorkshop from doing a Malekith/Imrik/Sisters of Twilight combined model (as many elf players wishlisted)? They can do this by changing the model orientation depending on the build (eg. Terrorgheist vs Zombie Dragon). You get three times the revenue (well not exactly) for the same design cost. This reduces overall costs of the business.

So my take on the ET: it is primarily driven by the need to increase revenue and reduce costs in order to make the game more profitable. End Times is a strategy to draw in more players, get existing players to make more purchases and to reduce costs- all increasing profitability.


Now if only GamesWorkshop understood the concept of optimal pricing, where price increases can actually reduce revenue (market shrinks), maybe they would start to bring prices down to get more people to play the game. $60 for 10 shadow warriors is ridiculous.

scruffyryan
28-12-2014, 23:37
As a benefit for players, consolidation of armies will help to curb the "several editions out of date" army book issue that has plagued this game for years.

The End times magic rules also help to raise the stock of magic resistance as a stat, as machine gunning with pew spells is a more viable and kind of dangerous option under that ruleset.

In general I like the new ruleset. A brushup on certain spammable spells (wither, miasma) in 9th ed and it should be fine.

Liber
29-12-2014, 04:51
Do you really think that GW will decide not to produce new army books for 9th edition? They make to much money from them not to.


You're making a mostly correct generalization and then drawing a very specific conclusion from it.


When they release a new edition, they always release new army books at a steady rate throughout the lifetime of that edition, and the end times won't change that, just as the other campaign books and such like in the past didn't.

So because they always have, they always will? I don't agree.


The only question

Nope. There are many questions. One of which is: will there be a 9th edition or just a final ET book? Another is if there is a 9th that follows the story of ET, will they release new armybooks?


I asked a while back for these solid reliable rumor mongers saying 9th ed is not only happening but happening soon. I'm still waiting...really, certain birdies have my faith and could change my mind.

Mithrilherz
29-12-2014, 10:02
Guys, you have problems

Your hobby is what you make of it.
I have fully worked background for all my 15 Warhammer armies on my website!
Will I change it now because of the Endtimes? Nope
No one would even care.

You can play with each and any legal special character, dead or alive.
I have never met a player who cares about that, as long as it is legal.

The point of playing Warhammer is having fun with your mates!

CariadocThorne
29-12-2014, 10:45
Guys, you have problems

Your hobby is what you make of it.
I have fully worked background for all my 15 Warhammer armies on my website!
Will I change it now because of the Endtimes? Nope
No one would even care.

You can play with each and any legal special character, dead or alive.
I have never met a player who cares about that, as long as it is legal.

The point of playing Warhammer is having fun with your mates!

I completely agree, and that's fine for now, it's in the future when new army books are released which don't contain rules for the "dead" characters which is the problem.

If they keep armies separate (even if they are consolidated together into a smaller number of books), there is a reasonable chance for many of the old characters to still have rules. However, if they really unite armies into a smaller number of factions (like uniting all three elven races into one faction) then at least some of the older characters are likely to disappear from the rulebooks.

Scammel
29-12-2014, 10:55
it's in the future when new army books are released which don't contain rules for the "dead" characters which is the problem.


I do love my new sig.

Dr.Zahnfleisch
29-12-2014, 11:03
I completely agree, and that's fine for now, it's in the future when new army books are released which don't contain rules for the "dead" characters which is the problem.

If they keep armies separate (even if they are consolidated together into a smaller number of books), there is a reasonable chance for many of the old characters to still have rules. However, if they really unite armies into a smaller number of factions (like uniting all three elven races into one faction) then at least some of the older characters are likely to disappear from the rulebooks.

There's always the chance of units/characters (or whole armies, for that matter) getting scrapped in a new book or edition. It sure sucks when your army general suddenly is not deemed important enough by the official material to even exist anymore in a new iteration of your army book, but there's always the option of using different rules to represent them. Zacharias could be a generic casting-focused Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon with wargear that suits his former traits best. Combined army lists (hopefully) also means that there will be more units and wargear to choose from, which gives you even more options to represent your units and characters. Maybe the rules of a Tomb King are even more suitable to represent Zacharias in some way - now you can use those as well.

I'm not saying that I favor merging armies in general, but there is also a big potential for better customization and/or creation of your own style. I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out eventually.

CariadocThorne
29-12-2014, 11:04
You're making a mostly correct generalization and then drawing a very specific conclusion from it.
Actually I'm drawing a specific conclusion from past evidence, the generalization was just to illustrate the point.


So because they always have, they always will? I don't agree.
Not quite, but if they have always done something, and it has worked well for them, it is illogical to expect them not to do that without specific reason.

If you have a specific reason to think they will change their practices now, I'm all ears.

However, I should point out now that I don't consider the End Times books to be a viable reason. GW have too much history (including very recently) of effectively invalidating their own recent expansions. How long was it after they released Escalation that they released an entire new edition of 40k, which included most of the rules from escalation? That rulebook had a lifetime of months, less than six if I remember correctly.


Nope. There are many questions. One of which is: will there be a 9th edition or just a final ET book? Another is if there is a 9th that follows the story of ET, will they release new armybooks?
I don't see any reason to even ask those questions. All the past evidence says there will be a 9th edition, and there will be army books. Until there is any evidence to the contrary, it's pointless even asking those questions.


I asked a while back for these solid reliable rumor mongers saying 9th ed is not only happening but happening soon. I'm still waiting...really, certain birdies have my faith and could change my mind.
I don't really take much notice of rumours, and the only sources I trusted have been quiet for some time.

Voss
29-12-2014, 14:05
I wasn't talking to you, or your rumors, so no need for attitude.


That said, care to link these reliable rumor sources saying we will have a 9th ed book soon? Or at all?


I'm being serious, I haven't seen what you're talking about (a spanish blog said something and darnok posted it in rumor roundup) but if you could lay it down it could change my mind.

He isn't talking about the Spanish blog nonsense. He's referring to Darnok (or his birds, if you want to be more accurate), Harry and Hastings

Liber
29-12-2014, 14:13
He isn't talking about the Spanish blog nonsense. He's referring to Darnok (or his birds, if you want to be more accurate), Harry and Hastings


Link please? I'm not being cheeky I honestly can't find it.

I look through the rumors and well...its a lot to look through : /

Liber
29-12-2014, 14:18
Not quite, but if they have always done something, *and it has worked well for them*, it is illogical to expect them not to do that without specific reason.

If you have a specific reason to think they will change their practices now, I'm all ears.

I don't see any reason to even ask those questions.


Well, there's your problem! Sometimes I forget that not all common knowledge really is common knowledge. Kind of like me somehow being unaware that Darnok, Hastings and Harry (according to Voss, I want to read it myself...) all said 9th edition is coming early 2015.


So let me be the first to inform you - Fantasy hasn't been doing well. You know, in the whole 'making GW money' department. So yah. This bit of knowledge should inform you to alot of what I've been saying, as well as the reason for the ET even happening at all. Money.

CountUlrich
29-12-2014, 14:48
Well, there's your problem! Sometimes I forget that not all common knowledge really is common knowledge. Kind of like me somehow being unaware that Darnok, Hastings and Harry (according to Voss, I want to read it myself...) all said 9th edition is coming early 2015.


So let me be the first to inform you - Fantasy hasn't been doing well. You know, in the whole 'making GW money' department. So yah. This bit of knowledge should inform you to alot of what I've been saying, as well as the reason for the ET even happening at all. Money.

Not early 2015, just 2015. They have not named a specific date, but the assumption based on their inferances and past history is June-July I believe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Daniel36
29-12-2014, 15:19
Well, my reaction was "I am going to spend money on GW stuff again, even though I can't really afford it...", which is also a funny reaction, I guess.
Sorry guys, but so far I love the books. I have not finished reading Glottkin yet because I was bummed I had to miss out on Khaine (and effectively the rest) until I found a copy in a webshop 2 days ago. Yes, I was very happy. And I will be happy reading it too. I honestly don't mind the Elves teaming up. I think it's awesome.

CariadocThorne
29-12-2014, 15:35
So let me be the first to inform you - Fantasy hasn't been doing well. You know, in the whole 'making GW money' department. So yah. This bit of knowledge should inform you to alot of what I've been saying, as well as the reason for the ET even happening at all. Money.

Warhammers poorer financial performance obviously can't possibly be down to a generally lower level of interest in games with a fantasy setting, when compared to a sci-fi setting. Therefore it is obvious that they will scrap the existing release system from fantasy, because that is clearly why it performs worse than the sci-fi setting which uses the same release system.

Thank you. You've opened my eyes.

The facts that new edition army books offer far higher percentage profits than models, due to the much smaller overheads (especially for ebooks), and that the books help push newer kits are clearly misleading. I shall endeavor to cast from my mind such misguided thoughts to embrace your higher reasoning of speculation without evidence or logical support in the face of historical evidence.

Ok, I'll stop being facetious now. The point is that there is no evidence at all for the idea of no new army books for 9th ed. It is pure speculation, which appears to mainly be based on the hope that we aren't buying a series of expensive campaign books, and spending money on models from our new allies, only for 9th ed to come along and make all that money wasted.

I'll admit, there is no concrete evidence that they will stick to the existing system, but until there is at least some evidence (even shaky evidence) or a solid rumour, there is no reason to think they will change.

Ollanius Pius
29-12-2014, 19:48
Hmm. Considering that TET pretty much already changes everything, my bet is on more change. ;)

Voss
29-12-2014, 19:57
Link please? I'm not being cheeky I honestly can't find it.

I look through the rumors and well...its a lot to look through : /
You're going to have to look for yourself. Most of the relevant threads were long ago banished to general for being off topic, and thence buried in the constant stream of speculative and wishlisting nonsense that infests this subforum.

Icarus81
29-12-2014, 21:01
Warhammers poorer financial performance obviously can't possibly be down to a generally lower level of interest in games with a fantasy setting, when compared to a sci-fi setting. Therefore it is obvious that they will scrap the existing release system from fantasy, because that is clearly why it performs worse than the sci-fi setting which uses the same release system.

Thank you. You've opened my eyes.

The facts that new edition army books offer far higher percentage profits than models, due to the much smaller overheads (especially for ebooks), and that the books help push newer kits are clearly misleading. I shall endeavor to cast from my mind such misguided thoughts to embrace your higher reasoning of speculation without evidence or logical support in the face of historical evidence.

Ok, I'll stop being facetious now. The point is that there is no evidence at all for the idea of no new army books for 9th ed. It is pure speculation, which appears to mainly be based on the hope that we aren't buying a series of expensive campaign books, and spending money on models from our new allies, only for 9th ed to come along and make all that money wasted.

I'll admit, there is no concrete evidence that they will stick to the existing system, but until there is at least some evidence (even shaky evidence) or a solid rumour, there is no reason to think they will change.

Fantasy is 1/4 to 1/3 as large as 40k sales based on eBay figures, but still occupies 50% of the release windows. There is a real impetus for change.

There is no evidence things will stay the same other than historical trends, which have been bucked quite a bit.
There is plenty of evidence that things might change. The whole End Times release format for one. White Dwarf and Visions. The abandonment of litigation tactics.

Combining the books doesn't mean they'll have less books to sell. They could easily release variations just like with 40k. Cult of Slaanesh is one perfect example.

Scammel
29-12-2014, 21:09
Hmm. Considering that TET pretty much already changes everything, my bet is on more change. ;)

Has it really? The combined lists are still somewhat up in the air (I'm very confident that they will stay with the current armybook formula, though) and the background advancement speaks for itself, but this all uses 8th ed as the foundation. Khaine magic rules notwithstanding (it remains to be seen whether the rulebook with be FAQed as it was for character percentages), Fantasy is till a very recognisable beast.

CariadocThorne
29-12-2014, 22:28
Has it really? The combined lists are still somewhat up in the air (I'm very confident that they will stay with the current armybook formula, though) and the background advancement speaks for itself, but this all uses 8th ed as the foundation. Khaine magic rules notwithstanding (it remains to be seen whether the rulebook with be FAQed as it was for character percentages), Fantasy is till a very recognisable beast.

Exactly.

And the End Times itself is nothing new. It's just another big campaign expansion, like Storm of Chaos or the Albion one about 10 years ago (dark shadows or something like that).

I'm not saying change is impossible. I freely admit my earlier comments overstated the likelyhood of it staying the same. And even then I acknowledged the possibility of some change, like a move to a few larger army books covering related factions, or even factions being completely merged. It is even possible that there won't be new army books for 9th, as Liber has suggested.

However, what I am saying is that there is no reason yet to believe that there will not be new army books in some format in 9th edition. Not only no evidence, but not even real hints or rumours, just pure, unadulterated speculation.

Until that changes, it is only logical to continue working to the assumption that there will be army books.

wargame_insomniac
31-12-2014, 22:29
Have been playing since 3rd ed but am quiite nervous as to the direction WFB is going in after TET and in run up to 9th ed.
My main WFB army (Warriors of Chaos) were unaffected by what I read of Nagash and Glotkin. But my Lothern thrmed High Elf force looks like massively affected by Khaine book.

I disliked Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror for having had no effect on storyline arcs. But now I fear that GW have over compensated in the opposite direction by changing too much too soon. I have not spent a penny on WFB since TET was released. I don't want to buy models that might become invalidated by 9th ed, or rules that aren't maintained.

One of my best friends plays Dark Elves. He was not impressed by his army and mine becoming combined. He is talking about selling his DE. I haven't got to that extant yet with my HE. But I may well downsize army just to play KoW.

James

Spiney Norman
01-01-2015, 01:04
One of my best friends plays Dark Elves. He was not impressed by his army and mine becoming combined. He is talking about selling his DE. I haven't got to that extant yet with my HE. But I may well downsize army just to play KoW.

James

Tell me about it, two of my best friends and I all play a different elven faction, I've been teasing them both about recently becoming 'wood elf players' (my faction), but the sad reality may well be that GW have completely destroyed the character of two of their most iconic armies, and that is kind of sad. There have been high and dark elves for as long as I have played the game, (and wood elves too, though their character has altered quite a bit every time they get a new army book), reducing them all down into one homogenised, bland elf faction just feels wrong IMO.

I'm rather hoping that however the end times series shakes out that when all is said and done the elf factions somehow go their separate ways again, even if wood elves get merged in with their high cousins, I can't help but feel that there needs to be a good/evil split in the elven race like there always has been.

CariadocThorne
01-01-2015, 01:47
Even setting aside that I play wood elves, I'd be very disappointed if they merge wood elves with high elves. Personally I've always considered them to have more in common with dark elves than high elves, aside from the not actually being evil part.

But then, any merging is going to upset someone, with the possible exception of re-merging the three branches of Chaos, and even then it'd have to be done very carefully not to upset some players.

I can't help thinking that the best way to go would be keeping the factions separate, but introducing limited allies. Then you just have the problem of making sure you retain balance by not letting armies cherry pick to cover their weaknesses (ala 40k). Elf armies are similar enough for that not to be a problem too much (their biggest weakness is being expensive and fragile, and it applies to all of them).

Drasanil
01-01-2015, 01:54
As a Dark Elf player first and foremost, and secondarily a Asur player, I find the developments pretty damn awesome to be honest. Dark elves at their heart were always Malekith Loyalists, its the foundation of their civilisation and their raison d'etre. Being upset by the end times merger is kind of like being upset the redcoats [in an alternate universe] managed to crush Washington and his tax-dodging brigands.

As for becoming 'wood elf' players. Lulz. Seriously, like if any proper Asur/Druchii are going to let a bunch of feces flinging savages dictate what is and is not acceptable, especially when their rulers are proper elves.

Brother Haephestus
01-01-2015, 02:12
I don't want to buy models that might become invalidated by 9th ed, or rules that aren't maintained.
The Chaos Dwarfites emphasize with you.

My personal money would be that there is no way these figures are going to be invalidated in 9th Edition. If you wanted to be SUPER-SNARKY, Glottkin didn't even survive until the end of their book, so ...

I am sure 9th is going to be insane, but I don't think even GW would be so gutsy as to produce an edition that death-knelled the most recent six+ months' worth of product. That would destroy their credibility.

The only way I would be timid is investing in forces that have not already been covered. Right now would be a horrible time to start a Bretonnian army in my opinion. They have been ridden hard by the lore, and now should only be called Brets (there isn't enough of them remaining for the full name to be used)!

Nagash? Buy! Nurgle goodies?? Buy!! Forthcoming Skaven?? Don't get between me and the register - I cannot vouch for your survival, let alone safety.

Lord Dan
01-01-2015, 04:13
Being upset by the end times merger is kind of like being upset the redcoats [in an alternate universe] managed to crush Washington and his tax-dodging brigands.

So, we're agreeing that the 18th-century British were basically Dark Elves?

Greyshadow
01-01-2015, 04:47
I don't play any of the Elven armies although I did start putting together some High Elves many years ago and do have a soft spot to them. Had I not been reading through End Times: Khaine and just heard that High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves are joining forces because Malekith won I probably would have understood people rage quitting. The book is however amazingly well done. The current state of affairs is much more nuanced than simply Dark Elves winning. Gosh, End Times: Khaine is so brilliantly done, especially considering the magnitude of how things have been shaken up.

Stegadeth
01-01-2015, 05:23
I have only ever played Lizardmen, but I honestly considered Dark Elves and Undead before finally landing on Lizards back in 5th edition. That said, even I will miss the Dark Elves being on their own if it goes down that way in 9th. I have no idea what it will mean in the fluff, as I have never cared enough about High or Wood Elves to even read their fluff. I just really hope that if they are all combined that each faction retains its individuality and culture enough to satisfy those who play them. I'd hate for people to leave the game over it.

CariadocThorne
01-01-2015, 10:00
So, we're agreeing that the 18th-century British were basically Dark Elves?

Only the nobles and the richer merchants. The average Redcoat was more like a braver, more skillful version of a stormvermin. Baseborn street scum and vicious gutter fighters who just happened to be the finest line infantry in the world.

Of course that makes the whole lot vicious murderers, of one type or another. Damn but I love my country.

Brother Haephestus
01-01-2015, 15:06
Get a room you two. :p

I'm not entirely certain that was the reference for 'the hammer'. [emoji47]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lord Dan
01-01-2015, 16:06
It wasn't. It's a semi-inside joke in which Ramius earned the nickname: "Hammer" for his occasional ruthlessness when speaking to people with whom he disagrees.

The bearded one
01-01-2015, 17:42
So, we're agreeing that the 18th-century British were basically Dark Elves?

After losing the war, they were cast back to the cold, barren english wastelands, brooding on their loss and how their king was the rightful leader.. They would return in the future to fight on the seas, and to try and reclaim what they had lost. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812)

Brother Haephestus
01-01-2015, 18:06
It wasn't. It's a semi-inside joke in which Ramius earned the nickname: "Hammer" for his occasional ruthlessness when speaking to people with whom he disagrees.Odd. I was thinking more along these lines .... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eeQSI-jo0E)

(once again, laughs while running away)

itcamefromthedeep
01-01-2015, 18:20
Ongoing story lines combined with historical re-fights. Tournament-style games that allow game elements from any period in the game's timeline.

Sounds like Battletech to me. That game does okay for itself.

Now some of the first models I bought are just as dead as my Gorbad mini. Oh well. I guess that means that my games will be exactly as non-canon as they ever were.

Sexiest_hero
01-01-2015, 19:17
Tomb kings. I book was meh, our kingdoms shattered, our gods slain and laid low, our people enslaved, and our mages have lost their power.

Elves: We have to live and work with people who look and act slightly different than we do, AND the rightful king sits on the throne! Truly these are the endtimes! :P

The bearded one
01-01-2015, 19:21
Tomb kings. I book was meh, our kingdoms shattered, our gods slain and laid low, our people enslaved, and our mages have lost their power.

Elves: We have to live and work with people who look and act slightly different than we do, AND the rightful king sits on the throne! Truly these are the endtimes! :P

You forgot the bit where a large chunk of the population and many of the most powerful heroes die, and two of its realms (which together form something like a sixth of the world's landmass) are lost ;)

Khaines Wrath
01-01-2015, 23:04
I always liked the static setting, there was always so much freedom when it comes to fluff creation that personally that was all I needed.

I generally find when the fluff deviates too much from the original that I fell in love with I quickly lose interest. Take Necrons for example, I loved the C'tan, the C'tan were one of my most favourite things in all of 40k's fluff. I liked the Star God vampires leading their hordes of undead automatons with a "Tomb King aesthetic". Then they went and changed it to the C'tan were killed off by the Necrons and they are now literally Tomb Kings in space. Necrons went from my most favourite army to one I pay no attention to due to a single book update shaking up the fluff.

Spiney Norman
01-01-2015, 23:37
As a Dark Elf player first and foremost, and secondarily a Asur player, I find the developments pretty damn awesome to be honest. Dark elves at their heart were always Malekith Loyalists, its the foundation of their civilisation and their raison d'etre. Being upset by the end times merger is kind of like being upset the redcoats [in an alternate universe] managed to crush Washington and his tax-dodging brigands.

I don't really know enough about US history to get that analogy, but I personally thought the book was terribly written with no thought whatsoever given to how three completely different (and in many ways, opposing) cultures, whose principal defining feature for the last six millennia has been their absolute hatred of one another, would operate or react when suddenly thrown together as one society. In my eyes it was trite, hastily done with no thought given to the consequences at all, the very fact that everyone suddenly just gets on with people they have been brought up to hate their entire (and very long) lives just shoots down the believability.

I've literally put my wood elves away because I just don't know what the character of the faction is any more, the whole reason I started wood elves was because I didn't like the 'cruelty for the sake of it' dark elves or the 'stiff and starchy' high elves, and now those traits have been forced on me. I'm patient enough to wait until the end times is done and we find out what the elf faction(s) will look like long term but if I just get stuck with them being high-dark elves there will be one more elf army on ebay.

Sexiest_hero
01-01-2015, 23:51
You forgot the bit where a large chunk of the population and many of the most powerful heroes die, and two of its realms (which together form something like a sixth of the world's landmass) are lost ;) They are still free?

The bearded one
02-01-2015, 03:14
They are still free?

Too bad most of them already died.

Settra is the TK wild card.

Lord Dan
02-01-2015, 04:17
I don't really know enough about US history to get that analogy

...er...I mean, isn't the War of American Independence kind of a mutual history? :p

Galushi
02-01-2015, 09:02
We're just a footnote on the list of territories that left =P

CariadocThorne
02-01-2015, 09:44
...er...I mean, isn't the War of American Independence kind of a mutual history? :p

Yeah, but there were more important things happening in British history around the same times. They where both relatively minor wars from a British perspective, and the American colonies weren't considered all that important.

Sexiest_hero
02-01-2015, 17:30
Too bad most of them already died.

Settra is the TK wild card.

Death is a kind of freedom! That's why people say freedom or death, they are pretty much equal.

Lord Dan
02-01-2015, 18:33
Yeah, but there were more important things happening in British history around the same times.
In the mid 1770's? Like what? :eyebrows:

DarkMark
02-01-2015, 20:17
In the mid 1770's? Like what? :eyebrows:

The beginning of the Industrial Revolution in Britain, the end of slavery in Britain, and Cook claiming Australia. :angel:

mostlyharmless
02-01-2015, 20:26
In the mid 1770's? Like what? :eyebrows:

If I recall . . . the French?

CariadocThorne
02-01-2015, 22:26
If I recall . . . the French?

Not during the first war, but yes, during the second war (1812) we were far more concerned with Napoleon's armies.

During the first war, Britain was beginning an industrial revolution, and was busy with consolidating power in controlled parts of India and a couple of conflicts with Spain over the Falklands and Gibraltar. At the time, the American colonies weren't considered to be overly important, while India was rapidly gaining in importance and both Gibraltar and the Falklands where of immense strategic importance. We were also busy freeing our slaves.

Even more important than any of that, we were busy establishing the game of cricket as a major institution.:D

You can see the dilemma.

On the one hand, if we don't start taking the American war seriously, we'll lose a huge territory full of virtually untouched natural resources.

On the other hand there's this game where a chap from one team throws this rock hard ball and a chap from the other team tries to hit it and run back and forth and so on. Jolly good fun don'cha know....

Sarael
02-01-2015, 22:39
I'm glad they are advancing the story in big ways. I may not like exactly where things end up but they can't please everyone. That said, I want to play dwarves now...

The bearded one
02-01-2015, 22:41
The french did participate in the revolutionary war, in order to weaken the British and take revenge for their defeat in the 7-years war the decade before.

But.. this.. isn't relevant to warhammer or the End times.




uhhhh...

I'm really excited about all this end times stuff. ET Nagash is the best GW material I've read in a while.

Voss
03-01-2015, 01:21
I'm really excited about all this end times stuff. ET Nagash is the best GW material I've read in a while.

Really? I rather gave up after chapter 1, as I got supremely tired of Arkhan and Mannfred wandering through idiot opponent after idiot opponent with no chance of failure, sense of urgency or challenge. Just a humdrum sequence of wins against sub-par opponents, and the interesting opposition are already captured or easily thwarted on their way to stop the ritual, mostly by their own flaws. Then at the last second Mannfred picks up the idiot ball, and Arkhan wins, except ultimately elves aren't big on fidelity or loyalty, so they don't walk off with pure ultimate power. Which... well. It was never quite clear to me why real ultimate power would have been on the table for a resurrection ritual. Isn't that impressive enough?

Given the poor quality of writing up to that point, I just gave up, since Nagash is no Drachenfels and doesn't much interest me anyway.

Mostly, though, unless this has meaningful long term consequences for the game, it doesn't matter.

That said, I'm excited for the potential for ET: Thanquol, as that has lots of opportunity of chaos, shenanigans, treachery and bizarre nonsense in an entirely fun and interesting way. And potential for the protagonist to muck things up horribly and make life more complicated for everyone. Except for the thousands that die in amusing and nasty ways as a result of everything going pear-shaped, of course.

forseer of fates
03-01-2015, 01:58
18th cent British could not have possibly been dark elves! rerolling hits and wounds and always striking first we would still have an empire:P

The bearded one
03-01-2015, 02:31
Really? I rather gave up after chapter 1, as I got supremely tired of Arkhan and Mannfred wandering through idiot opponent after idiot opponent with no chance of failure, sense of urgency or challenge. Just a humdrum sequence of wins against sub-par opponents, and the interesting opposition are already captured or easily thwarted on their way to stop the ritual, mostly by their own flaws. Then at the last second Mannfred picks up the idiot ball, and Arkhan wins, except ultimately elves aren't big on fidelity or loyalty, so they don't walk off with pure ultimate power. Which... well. It was never quite clear to me why real ultimate power would have been on the table for a resurrection ritual. Isn't that impressive enough?

Given the poor quality of writing up to that point, I just gave up, since Nagash is no Drachenfels and doesn't much interest me anyway.

Mostly, though, unless this has meaningful long term consequences for the game, it doesn't matter.

That said, I'm excited for the potential for ET: Thanquol, as that has lots of opportunity of chaos, shenanigans, treachery and bizarre nonsense in an entirely fun and interesting way. And potential for the protagonist to muck things up horribly and make life more complicated for everyone. Except for the thousands that die in amusing and nasty ways as a result of everything going pear-shaped, of course.

I haven't read the full 300 pages yet (although I did skip ahead and read important parts and the ending). I won't be able to put my finger on what exactly about the prose I like, but it reads fine to me. Certainly better than the armybooks text and the like. I also enjoy the cutting between the regular omniscient narrator and the novel-like textboxes detailing thoughts and speech, adding something cinematic to the happenings.

I also thought the ending and Settra's final page were very poignent and felt very momentous.

Besides, Nagash always really interested me. Drachenfels always struck me as a prick who is so much more ancient and powerful and infallible than everybody else.

In addition, I am fond of the way they detail notable units from both hosts before each battle. That stuff is hobby-fodder.
I also like the way the battles I have read have played out. It's not just "the army charged and there was a big brawl and everybody totally fought and the dudes who charged won" Return of the King style. There are battleplans, twists, turns, revisions, back-up plans, various styles and arts of war. Even the small peasant-knight garrison at Maisontaal seems to have a shot at holding the line, rather than just being swept aside. Mannfred raising that dragon whose bones the skaven clan had used to build their fortress wall.. totally didn't see it coming, and it was hilariously vindictive how he poured enough juice in it to keep it going for potentially days more.

I like it. Sue me.

Liber
03-01-2015, 04:16
I also thought the ending and Settra's final page were very poignent and felt very momentous.


Yes, the ending was spectacular. The battle was interesting and unique, and when Khemri falls in such an absolute manner you really feel it. Those final words with Settra and the Chaos gods, followed by that awesome image of him staring into the setting sun gave me goosbumps.

Ellecis
03-01-2015, 04:31
I like it too. Some of the writing is a bit simple (not in a good way) and the vocabulary leaves a lot to be desired (how many times do you have to use the word "eldritch"?), but the overall story and character arcs are pretty decent. I thought Khaine (as opposed to many here) was actually a pretty good story- here is why:

Dark Elf/High Elf reconciliation- This just doesn't happen. Some others make it out to seem that the two elf factions embrace each other with open arms, as if 6000 years of history did not happen. They definitely do not. The only elves to fight on the side of Malekith for a very long time are the Calendorians, and only because they follow Imrik so passionately. Most follow him begrudgingly. Even then, other than the battle at Eagle Gate, they rarely ever fight directly against other high elves. The battles between Ystrana and Malekith describe the Caledorians in Malekith's army as not ever fighting the other high elves, and Malekith reluctantly allowing them to do so. As well, the high elves fighting for Malekith are constantly deserting and there are many plots among his supporters to assassinate him (including some from Caledor). The high elves that follow Malekith do so out of duty to either Imrik or Tyrion and not at all because of Malekith.

On the other hand, many follow Tyrion against Malekith, especially those from Cothique, Chrace and Yvresse (Perhaps Ellyrion and Tiranoc as well, but they are not talked about as much in the book). However, as the sword of Khaine corrupts Tryion and his court more and more, more either turn away from him toward Malekith, or abandon both sides altogether. Korhil being the prime example.

Then you have Avelorn, which follows Alarielle, and stays out of everything until the battle of Withelan, where Tyrion's corruption is quite evident. Saphery tries to stay neutral (the masters of hoeth want no part of the war) as well. Nagarythe does so completely, and is mostly uninvolved in the war.

And finally there are the Asrai, which are pretty much trying to stay out of the whole thing and only fight to protect Alarielle at Withelan, and then only a few of them (Orion, Daith, Durthu). Only after she makes the case to the rest of the wood elves do them come to the side of Malekith.

Characters demonstrate complexity- Each character seems to be torn by their conscience in the war- Korhil being the greatest example as he stays loyal to Tyrion for a long time until he sees the corruption of Khaine take hold and in his desperation, steals the Widowmaker, and seeks the help of Hellebron. Caradryan too chooses sides only at the last moment, and only out of desperation. Shadowblade basically tries to thwart everyone's plans at the behest of Hellebron. Alarielle cares about and loves Tyrion, but sees the corruption that the Widowmaker has on him and only then does she turn against him.

Brother Haephestus
03-01-2015, 04:55
From my point of view and tastes, both Nagash and Khaine were fun reads and I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, there were some Numbers moments (...and he begat so and so, who begat so and so. The number of their generations was blah blah blah. Then so-and-so ...) but overall a good time. Great literature? No, but I don't turn to The Black Library for that. They provide my mental junk food; other books provide my seven course literary meal.

Glottkin however was only worth the briefest of gloss overs. There's no chaos personality that has any emotional attachment, and even if they are killed they'll just be back. Whatever.


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Kakapo42
03-01-2015, 08:25
I always liked the static setting, there was always so much freedom when it comes to fluff creation that personally that was all I needed.

I generally find when the fluff deviates too much from the original that I fell in love with I quickly lose interest. Take Necrons for example, I loved the C'tan, the C'tan were one of my most favourite things in all of 40k's fluff. I liked the Star God vampires leading their hordes of undead automatons with a "Tomb King aesthetic". Then they went and changed it to the C'tan were killed off by the Necrons and they are now literally Tomb Kings in space. Necrons went from my most favourite army to one I pay no attention to due to a single book update shaking up the fluff.

Agreed. Aside from the Necron example (I personally preferred the older background to them, but was never heavily invested in them enough to feel that strongly either way), this is very much my thinking. Especially that first part.

Ratbeast
03-01-2015, 09:47
This whole end times saga is sounding really silly, the fluff has been absolutely rooted.... all elves living in athel loren........... so they are most likely going to merge the elves, well, how does that work with the current ranges..... so any one that's starting out and wanting to go wood elves, or high elves or even dark elves, cant do it, as you don't know if the armies will all be merged soon.... like seriously!!!

Scammel
03-01-2015, 10:06
This whole end times saga is sounding really silly, the fluff has been absolutely rooted.... all elves living in athel loren........... so they are most likely going to merge the elves, well, how does that work with the current ranges..... so any one that's starting out and wanting to go wood elves, or high elves or even dark elves, cant do it, as you don't know if the armies will all be merged soon.... like seriously!!!

Dude, I've been warning people this whole time.

Daemon Primarch Lorgar
03-01-2015, 11:07
I really like that the story advances. It might be too soon to say, but I think it'll be just fine. ET is pulling me and my gaming group back into fantasy nonetheless :)!

HelloKitty
03-01-2015, 15:12
Nothing stops someone from collecting a dark elf or wood elf or high elf army. Everything going on now is heresay and rumour. Even if they do get merged into one book, the end times are supposed to be (per the rumour) a road map of how 9th looks, which means there will be various "types" of elf lists (dark, wood, high) so you would not be losing an army by collecting any of those three.

CariadocThorne
03-01-2015, 15:46
This whole end times saga is sounding really silly, the fluff has been absolutely rooted.... all elves living in athel loren........... so they are most likely going to merge the elves, well, how does that work with the current ranges..... so any one that's starting out and wanting to go wood elves, or high elves or even dark elves, cant do it, as you don't know if the armies will all be merged soon.... like seriously!!!

I doubt it'll be that bad. If they go ahead with merging the elves, they will probably leave enough of each separate faction so that you'll be able to collect them as high elves, for example, rather than just generic elves, by taking generic elven archers and spearmen, repeater bolt-throwers, mages with high magic, and whichever high elf specific stuff gets left in, like dragon princes and pheonixes.

They may even not merge them at all. It could be one book with three armies in it, and an option to do a combined list, take allies from each other or something like that.

There is definitely potential for GW to really ruin elves for many current fans, but at the moment we just don't know which direction they'll take, except that whatever they do, they won't want to stop selling all those kits they've made.

Brother Haephestus
03-01-2015, 16:07
This whole end times saga is sounding really silly, the fluff has been absolutely rooted.... all elves living in athel loren........... so they are most likely going to merge the elves, well, how does that work with the current ranges..... so any one that's starting out and wanting to go wood elves, or high elves or even dark elves, cant do it, as you don't know if the armies will all be merged soon.... like seriously!!!

I think this is kind of true, but not to the extremes that warrant's Scammel's warnings. My assumption (and that's all it is) is that the end product will only compress so far, and yet still be comfortable to all.

1). From their own statements, GW is a miniatures company, not a Warhammer Fantasy Battles company.. They make money by ... selling miniatures. Excessively reducing the range is not in their best interests.

2). What they most likely will reduce are products identical to each range, then make multi-part kits, like spears.

3) We already have a perfect example of a multi-faction army in WoC. My belief is that the final Elves faction would be in the exact same manner, where you can go mixed or mono as you see fit. This, by the way, goes back to #1.

My personal belief is that whatever compression they do to the ranges, in the end you are going to have predominately happy High, Dark and Wood Elf players. There will be purists that are a little ruffled, and probably more than a few that dislike the lore, but figures wise I doubt you will see any changes. All they've really done is make kits comparable across three ranges, effectively tripling the target audience for Kit X.

I really don't think there is anything to worry about at all. I think it will be just fine.


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Scammel
03-01-2015, 16:13
I doubt it'll be that bad. If they go ahead with merging the elves, they will probably leave enough of each separate faction so that you'll be able to collect them as high elves, for example, rather than just generic elves, by taking generic elven archers and spearmen, repeater bolt-throwers, mages with high magic, and whichever high elf specific stuff gets left in, like dragon princes and pheonixes.

They may even not merge them at all. It could be one book with three armies in it, and an option to do a combined list, take allies from each other or something like that.

They might even release a supplement that contains rules for merging Elf armies whilst maintaining standalone army books. Just idle speculation though.

itcamefromthedeep
03-01-2015, 16:46
There's the question of what people do with their Witch Elves.

The answer from other minatures tabletop games is... whatever you like. Play them. Play them in your "normal" army, in "normal" games.

You can already have Gorbad Ironclaw and Grimgor Ironhide in the same army, even though that emphatically did *not* ever happen in the background. Even if Witch Elves cease to be unit used by the elves in a post-ET army, if GW do this in any kind of remotely sane way you'll still be able to use the unit, even alongside units that only appear post-ET.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 08:36
Nothing stops someone from collecting a dark elf or wood elf or high elf army. Everything going on now is heresay and rumour. Even if they do get merged into one book, the end times are supposed to be (per the rumour) a road map of how 9th looks, which means there will be various "types" of elf lists (dark, wood, high) so you would not be losing an army by collecting any of those three.

I know, but if the storyline of wfb is important to you do you really want to be forced to play all your games as 'historical' games because your favourite faction has effectively ceased to exist is the present? After reading the Khaine book I basically felt like my wood elf army had been squatted since it's now completely indistinguishable from high/dark elves, sure GW still sell models for them, but they don't have a place in the unfolding story of Warhammer any more, they're just a museum relic of the game's past, and that bothers me somewhat.

Snake1311
05-01-2015, 08:51
I know, but if the storyline of wfb is important to you do you really want to be forced to play all your games as 'historical' games because your favourite faction has effectively ceased to exist is the present? After reading the Khaine book I basically felt like my wood elf army had been squatted since it's now completely indistinguishable from high/dark elves, sure GW still sell models for them, but they don't have a place in the unfolding story of Warhammer any more, they're just a museum relic of the game's past, and that bothers me somewhat.

Old factions die, new factions appear. From a fluff perspective, after whatever happens at the EndTimes (lets assume the non-undead forces of order kind of win) it make sense to advance the story yet another 100 years for the new factions to settle in - i.e. be able to release an Elves Armybook, where the three elf armies have more or less merged into one coherent-ish culture.

Thing is, that won't happen, because it won't reflect the miniatures - which are still the driver after all. So I'm actually placing my bets on a reset, as silly as it may be to some. EndTimes as an example of "this is what could happen in the future, anything is possible!", and then 9th out with some rules support for alliances - which will look nowhere near as ridiculous when you have the EndTimes as a "what if" example precedent.

employed
06-01-2015, 11:00
1). From their own statements, GW is a miniatures company, not a Warhammer Fantasy Battles company.. They make money by ... selling miniatures.
If that is how they feel, then they should stop making rules and let the community do it for them.

A good company makes a product with great quality, long lifespan. Now GW shoots themselves in the foot buy doing the ET. No ones gonna buy a model if it is a rumor that they are gonna be excluded from the rules in the next ed.

Daniel36
06-01-2015, 11:26
No ones gonna buy a model if it is a rumor that they are gonna be excluded from the rules in the next ed.
Except that if you have the rulebook (ET), then you have the rules, so... you can use the miniatures. For starters, half of the special characters in the current regular army books are historical figures. They are dead as per the current timeline. Yet, people use them. Many characters die in the ET books, but that doesn't have to stop you from using them either.

And for the umpteenth time, GW does not hold the rights to your enjoyment. If you want to use a special character, current or not, you are allowed to use it. And if people start fussing over the fact that your special character is not in the current books, kindly remind them it's... just... a... game.

I love ET. Haven't been this enthusiastic about Warhammer since Dark Omen.

Sexiest_hero
06-01-2015, 11:29
If that is how they feel, then they should stop making rules and let the community do it for them.

A good company makes a product with great quality, long lifespan. Now GW shoots themselves in the foot buy doing the ET. No ones gonna buy a model if it is a rumor that they are gonna be excluded from the rules in the next ed.

The Community is terri-bad at making rules. At the very worst you'll have to do counts as, something the more successful 40k has been doing for 20 years. A good company makes a product that sales enough to cover it's costs and make an ok return, quality and lifespan mean nothing in the cold hard world for corporations. Remember the fact that you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad, it's just not for you.

HereComesTomorrow
06-01-2015, 13:25
Except that if you have the rulebook (ET), then you have the rules, so... you can use the miniatures. For starters, half of the special characters in the current regular army books are historical figures. They are dead as per the current timeline. Yet, people use them. Many characters die in the ET books, but that doesn't have to stop you from using them either.

And for the umpteenth time, GW does not hold the rights to your enjoyment. If you want to use a special character, current or not, you are allowed to use it. And if people start fussing over the fact that your special character is not in the current books, kindly remind them it's... just... a... game.

I love ET. Haven't been this enthusiastic about Warhammer since Dark Omen.

You can't argue logic and reason with the Warhammer community. Its just not how it works.

I love the End Times as well. I've never been into the fluff as much as I have now. 20 years is a long time for the setting to not move. I honestly cannot wait to field the new Thanquol model. It'll probably get shot to bits by Wood Elves but oh well.

Just Tony
06-01-2015, 23:33
Nothing stops someone from collecting a dark elf or wood elf or high elf army. Everything going on now is heresay and rumour. Even if they do get merged into one book, the end times are supposed to be (per the rumour) a road map of how 9th looks, which means there will be various "types" of elf lists (dark, wood, high) so you would not be losing an army by collecting any of those three.

My brother is wanting to engage in a game of 6th Ed. Oldhammer this weekend, so I was brushing up on the Annual and Chronicles I still own to get in the mood. I came across the War of the Beard lists, and immediately thought about this post, and the other posts mentioning that GW wouldn't make a list that's later invalidated. I totally see what you mean about playing older lists if you wanted, and if people agreed to it, but this item right here reminded me of how difficult it is to get people to do something like that unless there's a dedicated gaming night to it. And if they DO combine lists in a way that makes the armies inseparable, then you wind up having to play Oldhammer to get a game in. OR buy a whole new army, which I think is more the motivation behind this.

HelloKitty
06-01-2015, 23:46
Yeah its hard getting people to deviate from the cult of officialdom no doubt. However i will wait for 9th to come out first before sweating what could happen.

Pitalla Crimson
07-01-2015, 06:38
End of times it's facepalm for me. All of this sounds like some badly written fan fiction that is trying to get as much shock value as possible.
Who is writting this fluff/books anyways?

They are just discarding stuff while completely jerking on others.