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Tyrelli
24-12-2014, 10:25
Myself I really would like something new for chaos, chaos Knights perhaps ? (Come on forge world you know you want to make these) perhaps raid epic for something, like the hell striders .. Or perhaps a plague tower ? Silver tower anyone ?

So what Lord of war would you like to see from your faction, and what do you think would look great converted from epic to 40k scale ?

Spiney Norman
24-12-2014, 10:29
Myself I really would like something new for chaos, chaos Knights perhaps ? (Come on forge world you know you want to make these) perhaps raid epic for something, like the hell striders .. Or perhaps a plague tower ? Silver tower anyone ?

So what Lord of war would you like to see from your faction, and what do you think would look great converted from epic to 40k scale ?

I'd like for Dark Eldar to get Vect on Dais of destruction, if you're specifically talking about super-heavies the ones we have are already ruining the game, I don't think any more (of any description) would really be an improvement.

aprilmanha
24-12-2014, 11:30
Since LOW's are restricted from normal play, I would rather we keep any more characters out of that slot.
It was annoying to lose access to Ghazkull on top of his nerf.

For Apocalypse games, it would be fun to see some of the Chaos Knights join in and some kinda big tank for Tau.
For DE, it would be fun to see some kinda arena zone that they can teleport enemy units to for unfair arena combat :D

and for Space Marines, I think BA Mephiston riding a SW werewolf Logan Grimnar Since we all know that werewolves are servants for vampires :D

Denny
24-12-2014, 11:45
I'd like for Dark Eldar to get Vect on Dais of destruction, if you're specifically talking about super-heavies the ones we have are already ruining the game, I don't think any more (of any description) would really be an improvement.

Vect would be awesome, whether as a Lord of War or not.

I'd like a cool centerpiece kit for Dark Eldar. Vect's pimp ride would be sweet, but I'd be happy with a giant slave barge or similar, or even a huge Coven monstrosity.


For Space Marines, I think BA Mephiston riding a SW werewolf Logan Grimnar Since we all know that werewolves are servants for vampires :D

You shut your mouth sir! :mad: ;)

Spiney Norman
24-12-2014, 12:10
Since LOW's are restricted from normal play, I would rather we keep any more characters out of that slot.


Firstly LoW are not restricted from normal play, there is a LoW slot on the CAD organisation chart now and if you want more than one unbound is open to you. LoW are no more 'restricted' than fortification.

Secondly making Vect a LoW choice would not be 'losing' a character in any sense since he no-longer has a playable profile as a HQ choice.

duffybear1988
24-12-2014, 12:15
I would quite like Saint Celestine to be redone as a Lord of War. BUT she would have to be totally balltastically killy for me to field her. I'm picturing her smashing through knight titans like a hot knife through butter. I want to see Ghazzy and Fatherwolfmas weep bitter tears as she tears them a new one.

Every Sisters of Battle player takes her anyway, so she might as well have fitting rules. In the Gaunt's Ghosts book Saint Sabbat one-shots a baneblade with her sword and I don't see why Celestine should be any different.

Spiney Norman
24-12-2014, 12:19
I would quite like Saint Celestine to be redone as a Lord of War. BUT she would have to be totally balltastically killy for me to field her. I'm picturing her smashing through knight titans like a hot knife through butter. I want to see Ghazzy and Fatherwolfmas weep bitter tears as she tears them a new one.

Every Sisters of Battle player takes her anyway, so she might as well have fitting rules. In the Gaunt's Ghosts book the Saint one shots a baneblade with her sword so I don't see why Celestine should be any different.

I'm not really convinced a saint should be that powerful really, more to the point it would reduce the SoB compulsory HQ options to Jacobus or Canoness, not really what the army needs right now (which probably makes it all the likely to happen).

duffybear1988
24-12-2014, 12:26
I'm not really convinced a saint should be that powerful really, more to the point it would reduce the SoB compulsory HQ options to Jacobus or Canoness, not really what the army needs right now (which probably makes it all the likely to happen).

Well at the moment nobody takes a canoness because she does nothing for the army and Jacobus is pretty much the go to guy after Celestine, so I don't think it would really make much difference. To be honest they should just redo the old 3rd/4th Witch Hunters codex for 7th edition as it was far better than the bland junk we have currently got.

As for the powers of the saint. I always envisioned them as being the living embodiment of a small part of the power of the Emperor. As such they should surpass a chapter master in capabilities. Well that's just my view on it.

Tuborg
24-12-2014, 12:44
I would love to see greater daemons moving to LoW and them giving additional bonuses if they are fielded. We pay enough for them as is.

The other one I doubt we will see happen, is the Daemon Primarchs that still live. FW will already be making them, would be nice if i could field it standalone with my chaos army, as I fully expect Chaos to be **** on again.

Icarus81
24-12-2014, 13:15
Tzeentch Silver Tower

Tyrelli
24-12-2014, 13:39
Being a Slaanesh devotee, I think this would be brilliant in GW plastic and would be a nice alternative to a simple knight convertion
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh_Subjugator

Born Again
24-12-2014, 14:14
If Chaos are to get knights, it had better be the old Slaanesh knights, like the above mentioned Subjugator, and not just the Imperial Knights with spikes on, which would be very disappointing.
I'd quite like to see the Contagion though, they're often overlooked in favour of Plague Towers but what devotee of Nurgle doesn't like flinging rotting corpses at the enemy?
As already said, Vect on Dais for DE.
I'm of the opinion that Riptides could have got a bit of a buff and made LoW for Tau, but in place of that I guess there's things like the Tigershark and Barracuda that could make the jump from FW (if GW were inclined to do such things...)
Any chance Greater Daemons (both Chaos and the Eldar Avatar) could make the jump to LoW in their next codex?

Tuborg
24-12-2014, 14:41
If Chaos are to get knights, it had better be the old Slaanesh knights, like the above mentioned Subjugator, and not just the Imperial Knights with spikes on, which would be very disappointing.
I'd quite like to see the Contagion though, they're often overlooked in favour of Plague Towers but what devotee of Nurgle doesn't like flinging rotting corpses at the enemy?
As already said, Vect on Dais for DE.
I'm of the opinion that Riptides could have got a bit of a buff and made LoW for Tau, but in place of that I guess there's things like the Tigershark and Barracuda that could make the jump from FW (if GW were inclined to do such things...)
Any chance Greater Daemons (both Chaos and the Eldar Avatar) could make the jump to LoW in their next codex?

I really see the Avatar getting a buff and made LoW. Considering that is what he should be anyway.

insectum7
24-12-2014, 15:16
I would quite like Saint Celestine to be redone as a Lord of War. BUT she would have to be totally balltastically killy for me to field her. I'm picturing her smashing through knight titans like a hot knife through butter. I want to see Ghazzy and Fatherwolfmas weep bitter tears as she tears them a new one.

Every Sisters of Battle player takes her anyway, so she might as well have fitting rules. In the Gaunt's Ghosts book Saint Sabbat one-shots a baneblade with her sword and I don't see why Celestine should be any different.

I'd second that.

While we're at it, she should put that upstart Sanguinor to shame.

Killgore
24-12-2014, 15:20
Stormbird, lots of mentions in the HH books, but no model

WarsmithGarathor94
24-12-2014, 15:44
Id rather not see greater daons moved to the lord of war slot UNLESS they move princes back to heavy support where they should be

Charistoph
24-12-2014, 19:47
Id rather not see greater daons moved to the lord of war slot UNLESS they move princes back to heavy support where they should be

I don't know, some of the Unique ones could work, and then the rules for them could really go to town.

Think about a Gargantuan Bloodthirster, for example. A lot REALLY depends on where they want to take it, and which models they are willing to make.

If they bring back C'tan anything like they should be, they would make even the Transcendants seem weak, but either way, a good Lord of War.

MajorWesJanson
25-12-2014, 07:52
Astra Militarum/IG:
Merge the Baneblade Hulls into three profiles-
Baneblade with option to take HB or flamer sponsons, and can trade for Hellstorm cannon
Shadowsword that can swap out Volcano cannon for Quake cannon or Stormsword siege gun
Stormlord that can trade VMB and 15 crew slots for Magma Cannon or Tremor Cannon. Would only require 3 pages instead of 8.

Chaos Daemons:
Keep generic GDs in HQ, but move Fateweaver, Kugath, Skarbrand to LOW and add N'Kari (Contingent on new Greater Daemon kits that have dual builds to make the named ones) They stay mostly the same, but bump up say a point of T and 2 wounds each and switch to Garg creature rules instead of Monstrous Creatures.

Chaos Marines:
Make the Lord of Skulls worth taking.
Add a Silver Tower superheavy skimmer psychic vehicle for Tzeentch
Add a Contagion Engine with artillery for ranged or pusthrower hellstorm template for Nurgle
Add Hell Knights with Slaaneshi styling
Abbadon with option for Justarian retinue

Eldar:
Grav Tank versions of the Scorpion/Cobra, maybe a tad smaller model-wise (like the Mk I FW versions)

Necrons:
Improve the Obelisk to AV14 at the current cost, but remove gravity pulse as default. Make grav pulse an upgrade option, or may choose "Resurection Hub upgrade, which all units within 12" count has having a res orb in the unit.
Tesseract Vault- pretty much fine as is. Drop Seismic Assault from 6d6 to 3d6. It was balanced against the old D weapons, and never reduced when D got nerfed.
Transecendent C'Tan- Change Seismic Shockwave to say hit all models in BtB with a stomp attack intead of using the large blast for stomps. Drop Seismic Assault to 3D6 like for Vault. Maybe drop Wave of Withering to S10 instead of D.

Orks:
Bring back some of the alternate weapon options for the arms and belly, add 1-2 new sprues, throw them in the box, mark it up to match the baneblade.
Otherwise, add a Massive Squiggoth with Howdah that mounts a trio of Big Gunz including the new Mek Gunz options.

Space Marines:
Add the old school Heracles command tank, midway between the Spartan and Fellblade in design and firepower.
Calgar, Pedro, Generic Chapter Master moved to Lord of War.

Tau:
Heavy Grav tank- scaled up hammerhead with 4 engines, turret with heavy rail gun or Dual Ion Accelerator. Nova Reactor to let it move faster (or in assault phase like jetpack move), overcharge main gun, fire secondary weapons twice, or reroll jink

Tyranids:
Dominatrix/Maelfactor- gargantuan creature that share a riding beast, Dominatrix has a psychic symbiote rider, malefactor has an artillery symbiote with long range cannon.

WarsmithGarathor94
25-12-2014, 08:01
Chaos marines
A slaaneshi tank with more powerful noise weapons

Dkoz
25-12-2014, 11:50
Eldrad should be made a LoW for the Eldar in their next codex. I think if this happens you'd see a lot more people open up to the use of LoW.

Spiney Norman
25-12-2014, 12:55
Necrons:
Improve the Obelisk to AV14 at the current cost, but remove gravity pulse as default. Make grav pulse an upgrade option, or may choose "Resurection Hub upgrade, which all units within 12" count has having a res orb in the unit.
Tesseract Vault- pretty much fine as is. Drop Seismic Assault from 6d6 to 3d6. It was balanced against the old D weapons, and never reduced when D got nerfed.
Transecendent C'Tan- Change Seismic Shockwave to say hit all models in BtB with a stomp attack intead of using the large blast for stomps. Drop Seismic Assault to 3D6 like for Vault. Maybe drop Wave of Withering to S10 instead of D.


The way to break the dominance of the transcendent C'tan is not to nerf the Tesseract vault, seismic assault is hardly overpowered for its points value just because strength D is no longer overpowered.

The obelisk does need fixing, decoupling it from the largely useless graviton pulse would be a start, but it would need some decent weaponry or other purpose to justify its existence (as just being hard to kill isn't really enough to justify the points). I like the idea of a resurrection hub, though I think it needs to give a bigger bonus than counting as a res. Orb. Maybe conveying a bonus that stacks with a res orb, or granting a reroll to res. Rolls would make it worth taking.

AngryAngel
26-12-2014, 00:47
What LoW would I like to see ? None. Placing normal characters into LoW slot is daft and none of the current character LoW are worth it against an actual LoW. So all placing them there does it say, hey, I'll use my LoW ( Logan !! ) You go ahead and use a super heavy, yeah, sounds fair to me too. I think their handling of LoW is about the worst part of 7th, next to some close other front runners.

Althenian Armourlost
26-12-2014, 02:41
I would like to see a plastic Eldar scorpion with 2 variants - twin-linked pulsar and twin-linked sonic lance.

CrownAxe
26-12-2014, 05:19
What LoW would I like to see ? None. Placing normal characters into LoW slot is daft and none of the current character LoW are worth it against an actual LoW. So all placing them there does it say, hey, I'll use my LoW ( Logan !! ) You go ahead and use a super heavy, yeah, sounds fair to me too. I think their handling of LoW is about the worst part of 7th, next to some close other front runners.

That's why logan is only 200 or so when your opponent's superheavy is 700-900 ots

Geep
26-12-2014, 05:19
Tyranids:
Dominatrix/Maelfactor- gargantuan creature that share a riding beast, Dominatrix has a psychic symbiote rider, malefactor has an artillery symbiote with long range cannon.
A plastic Dominatrix would be cool, but would need to be pretty massive.
A Malefactor is a 'Nid short-range shooting/combat/sometimes transport beast. What you've described is the Exocrine. I'd like to get the Malefactor and Dactylis, and find it odd we got the Maleceptor and Toxi-thing instead.
I'd like to see a plastic Hierodule with more options, or just an option-set for the Heirophant upgrades.

I'd like to see Knights made Lords of War. Taking an army of them? Fine, but it's unbound.

AngryAngel
26-12-2014, 06:11
That's why logan is only 200 or so when your opponent's superheavy is 700-900 ots

How does that make it better ? Logan is around 200 just as an infantry model of questionable worth, and closer to 300 ( I believe ) with his party float. Not all LoW are 700 to 900. Though the ones that are, end up worlds better then the current character LoW choices. The baneblades are around 400 to 500 there about. I know which will make a bigger impact for the point cost and use of LoW slot.

I disagree with them making characters inot LoW who aren't actually very fantastic. Draigo, Logan, Ghaz, Seth, etc, etc, they just aren't that awesome, to be considered a LoW. It isn't really about the cost, its about the slot usage, one person is using it then for an HQ, and other is using it for a potent war machine that will change how the game goes. As if Logan is worthy to be a LoW then your build your own chapter master with the Eternal warrior shield and all the trimmings is worthy of being one and I'm just not sure Chapter Masters should count as Lords of war.

Edit: That is as long as they keep the LoW as it is. If they knock out super heavies, and just make them trumped out army HQ's eventually, then by all means leave the LoW as it is.

CrownAxe
26-12-2014, 06:25
The LoW slot isn't any different from the other FOC slots. Complaining about how one army's LoW isn't as good as another army's LoW is no different then complaining about how one armies anything is better then another army's anything.

Hendarion
26-12-2014, 06:51
The LoW slot isn't any different from the other FOC slots. Complaining about how one army's LoW isn't as good as another army's LoW is no different then complaining about how one armies anything is better then another army's anything.I guess the true reasoning behind such comments is that people mostly own all those other "anythings", but no all Lords of War they could buy/use.


Personally I'm still missing the Storm Serpent and Doom Weaver. The former will never be done and the latter would have lacklustre rules. A shame. I would prefer a new large chassis though. A Bright Stallion would be welcome.

CrownAxe
26-12-2014, 07:29
I play Daemons primarily. We don't have a LoW except for Lord of Skulls (which isn't good). With IA13, all the FW LoW options were removed for daemons. And since I'm not imperium i can't just throw in some Imperial Knights without screwing over my army (and at my LGS I can't take CTA allies at all).

All I see when people complain about how their army's LoW not being a super heavy is people complaining that they didn't get the most broken thing in the game. Might as well be complain about how their army doesn't have a wave serpant, or a riptide, or be'lakor.

Althenian Armourlost
26-12-2014, 07:40
...A Bright Stallion would be welcome.


Yes, as would any knight variation for Eldar. I'd buy a bright stallion, or even a wraithknight with different guns, in seconds.

Still Standing
26-12-2014, 10:06
The one thing I want for Lords of War is be limited to 2000pts and above and no more than 25% of your army.

Rolsheen
26-12-2014, 10:17
I don't see Greater Daemons moving to LoW for two reasons.
1.) one of the Daemonolgy powers summons a Greater Daemon, would be over powered summoning a Lord of War
2.) Daemons already have LoW in the four named Daemon Lords

Would like to see the Castellan and Conqueror Class Knights made.

Arijharn
26-12-2014, 10:58
I'd like to see LoW's that are Greater Daemons, but not that all Greater Daemons become LoW. Having said that though, I do think Greater Daemons are underpowered atm.

CrownAxe
26-12-2014, 11:01
I don't see Greater Daemons moving to LoW for two reasons.
1.) one of the Daemonolgy powers summons a Greater Daemon, would be over powered summoning a Lord of War
2.) Daemons already have LoW in the four named Daemon Lords
As of IA13 the Daemon Lords have a 25% requirement basically meaning you need to be playing over 2500 pts before you can even take the cheapest one.

T10
26-12-2014, 11:13
Since LOW's are restricted from normal play, I would rather we keep any more characters out of that slot.
It was annoying to lose access to Ghazkull on top of his nerf.

I am sure you realize that banning Lords of War choices "in normal play" is a house rule, and with some effort in lobbying exceptions could be made for characters that have been moved into this slot. Disallowing super-heavies but allowing Ghazkull only sounds unfair until one realizes that he is not a tank.

-T10

mr. peasant
26-12-2014, 11:23
What I'd like to see are more Lords of War with supportive roles; specifically ones that buff your existing forces as opposed to being some sort of hyper-powerful killing machine. For instance, stuff like the Marauder Vigilant (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder_Vigilant).

jeffersonian000
26-12-2014, 14:34
I'm pretty sure 8th will be splitting LoW into "Heroes" and "Heavies", with the same or similar 25% restriction we are seeing in 30k. Guess we'll seeing next year when 8th comes out.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
26-12-2014, 15:30
I'm pretty sure 8th will be splitting LoW into "Heroes" and "Heavies", with the same or similar 25% restriction we are seeing in 30k. Guess we'll seeing next year when 8th comes out.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would be great, although there is no real reason that Ghazkull and Grimnar can't just go back to HQ. expecting GW to add construction limitations to the game make it more playable is more faith than I'm willing to place in them at the moment after the devastation of dropping ALL building restrictions in 7th.

I seriously think that the next logical step on the current spiral of doom is to ditch formations and detachments completely and run everything unbound. There is no longer any real reason not to use unbound if you really want to play competitively anyway other than a sense of thematic play

AngryAngel
26-12-2014, 19:10
I play Daemons primarily. We don't have a LoW except for Lord of Skulls (which isn't good). With IA13, all the FW LoW options were removed for daemons. And since I'm not imperium i can't just throw in some Imperial Knights without screwing over my army (and at my LGS I can't take CTA allies at all).

All I see when people complain about how their army's LoW not being a super heavy is people complaining that they didn't get the most broken thing in the game. Might as well be complain about how their army doesn't have a wave serpant, or a riptide, or be'lakor.

?? I'm not complaining that Logan, Seth, etc etc are weak Lords of War, it is that they shouldn't be, aren't what a Lord of War would/should be. Unless your saying Logans presence on the field is as impressive as a baneblade , or a stompa. Lord of skulls is even worlds better then taking a simple HQ character as a super heavy. So let me be clear, Chapter Masters shouldn't be a LoW as they don't fit the concept, unless they do a turn about and remove super heavies and huge Gargantuan creatures from the LoW slots. So I think we're not on the same page, unless your just bitter at imperial armies and unable to see/understand what I'm saying.

Also, your examples of people wishing they had a wave serpent, etc, is not even close to what I am saying.

Edit: If 8th comes out next year, I can only imagine the anger and annoyance, I know I would be more then a little peeved.

CrownAxe
26-12-2014, 19:47
LoW isn't suppose to represent being super heavy, its suppose to represent being the most epic thing in your army. Which the chapter masters are.

Thats why I thought you were complaining about the game balance of LoWs, because getting caught up on the ideology of it is stupid.

druchii
26-12-2014, 19:59
?? I'm not complaining that Logan, Seth, etc etc are weak Lords of War, it is that they shouldn't be, aren't what a Lord of War would/should be. Unless your saying Logans presence on the field is as impressive as a baneblade , or a stompa. Lord of skulls is even worlds better then taking a simple HQ character as a super heavy. So let me be clear, Chapter Masters shouldn't be a LoW as they don't fit the concept, unless they do a turn about and remove super heavies and huge Gargantuan creatures from the LoW slots. So I think we're not on the same page, unless your just bitter at imperial armies and unable to see/understand what I'm saying.

Also, your examples of people wishing they had a wave serpent, etc, is not even close to what I am saying.

Edit: If 8th comes out next year, I can only imagine the anger and annoyance, I know I would be more then a little peeved.

I've seen this argument before:
Lords of War slots are supposed to be reserved for crazy, impressive things like primarchs (didn't FW start the term lords of war for Primarchs in 30k?) and baneblades and Trans. C'Tan and Reaver titans.
vs
Lords of War slots are supposed to be reserved for crazy, impressive things like primarchs (didn't FW start the term lords of war for Primarchs in 30k?) and baneblades and Trans. C'Tan and Reaver titans AND race-specific legendary heroes (like Chapter Masters and the bos of bosses Thraka).

I had thought GW intended the first, where it seems like they really intended the second...

I want more Eldar titan equivalents. Please please please give me a plastic centaur-dude.

d

Charistoph
26-12-2014, 20:23
There is no longer any real reason not to use unbound if you really want to play competitively anyway other than a sense of thematic play

Except most of the "competitive" play situations actually require Battle-Forged, and Unbound is the exception.

Voss
26-12-2014, 21:12
Edit: If 8th comes out next year, I can only imagine the anger and annoyance, I know I would be more then a little peeved.
If they reversed course, I'd be happy as a pig in mud.
But then, 7th was greeted with a resounding lack of spending or games, so there really isn't anywhere to go but up.


LoW isn't suppose to represent being super heavy, its suppose to represent being the most epic thing in your army. Which the chapter masters are.
No, no they aren't. 'Chapter Master' is a generic HQ slot, and most of the named ones are almost identical to it except for a set equipment list and maybe a special rule or two.
Most Chapter Masters are just these guys, you know.

Orbital Bombardment does not make a model epic. Just ask the Officer of the Fleet. And that is all 994 of them are. A captain + 40 points for a wound, an attack and orbital bombardment.

AngryAngel
26-12-2014, 23:37
I know when I see a space marine Chapter Master I think " Damn, he's going to wreck me !! " Then I soil myself and cry, for at least, but not longer then 40 minutes. As well, I do tend to consider them, epic. I welcome when my Dark Angels Grand Master can be considered a LORD OF WAR !!!! He'll just ooze, epic.

Spiney Norman
26-12-2014, 23:46
LoW isn't suppose to represent being super heavy, its suppose to represent being the most epic thing in your army. Which the chapter masters are.

Thats why I thought you were complaining about the game balance of LoWs, because getting caught up on the ideology of it is stupid.

It might be fair to suggest that if you want Logan Grimnar or Ghazkull to really be 'epic' on the table top, the answer would be to give them rules worthy of that epithet, not change their FOC designation to something that tells players of that army they are epic. Imo "epicness", whatever that is, should be self-evident, it should not require a "Lord of War" tag to recognise. All this smacks of GW main wanting to reproduce what has made the HH series such a hit for FW, and totally missing the point as usual (which is the narrative). Sadly Ghazkull and Logan look like Grots next to the SM Legion Primarchs, they are not remotely worthy of the LoW slot.

Besides a chapter master of a SM chapter isn't that impressive really, forgeworld were careful to elevate only primarchs to LoW status out of all the Legion characters, most of the legions that have had their rules done so far at least have their first captain, in all cases as a HQ choice, and most of them vastly outclass grimnar (and IMHO should do).


Except most of the "competitive" play situations actually require Battle-Forged, and Unbound is the exception.

Doesn't the fact that most competitive tournements are banning unbound suggest that there might be a competitive problem with it? If organised tournements feel the need to mandate that a section of the rules not be used at their events, that is usually a sign that they think it is unbalanced/overpowered in some way. In an environment where unbound is permitted, it is the most competitive way to play.

Charistoph
27-12-2014, 05:06
Doesn't the fact that most competitive tournements are banning unbound suggest that there might be a competitive problem with it? If organised tournements feel the need to mandate that a section of the rules not be used at their events, that is usually a sign that they think it is unbalanced/overpowered in some way. In an environment where unbound is permitted, it is the most competitive way to play.

Not really. How long has anything that was listed as "Opponent's Permission" banned from tournaments, even after they didn't need to be? This is no more than the same thing, just a little more Edition-specific.

AngryAngel
27-12-2014, 05:50
Not really. How long has anything that was listed as "Opponent's Permission" banned from tournaments, even after they didn't need to be? This is no more than the same thing, just a little more Edition-specific.

Just to be clear, your saying there isn't a competitive problem with running unbound ? As if that is so, I'm more then a little surprised. Not even most of the hard liners would make such a claim. ( I will say however, before it is said, of course some people might use unbound to make truly fluff bunny super soft lists, sure, but I think that is more the exception and not the rule )

Still Standing
27-12-2014, 08:16
There is a reason more and more tournaments are going "highlander."

WarsmithGarathor94
27-12-2014, 08:29
Whats high lander?

Spiney Norman
27-12-2014, 08:34
Not really. How long has anything that was listed as "Opponent's Permission" banned from tournaments, even after they didn't need to be? This is no more than the same thing, just a little more Edition-specific.

Unbound is not 'listed' as opponents permission anywhere in the rule book. It might be polite to do so, but the kind of players that like to bring unbound are generally bringing the filth and are therefore not polite.

Tournements generally create their own brand of 'not quite 40k' with various comp. rules and restrictions which modify the core game because they want to level the playing field, that is not the kind of game (or the kind of environment) I am particularly interested in playing in, I'm talking about standard 'rule-book rules' 40k played at local club level.

Still Standing
27-12-2014, 08:52
Whats high lander?

There can be only one.

You can only take one of each unit type, including troops and dedicated transports. With Troops units once you've purchased one of each type you can purchase a second only. A Marine army might look like this.

Chapter Master
Chaplain
Tactical Squad in Razorback
Scout Squad
Tactical Squad in Rhino
Assault Squad
Devastator Sqauad
Storm Talon.

mr. peasant
27-12-2014, 09:53
Just to be clear, your saying there isn't a competitive problem with running unbound ? As if that is so, I'm more then a little surprised. Not even most of the hard liners would make such a claim. ( I will say however, before it is said, of course some people might use unbound to make truly fluff bunny super soft lists, sure, but I think that is more the exception and not the rule )

Unbound is not 'listed' as opponents permission anywhere in the rule book. It might be polite to do so, but the kind of players that like to bring unbound are generally bringing the filth and are therefore not polite.

I was under the impression that "unbound" was created to make the game more accessible to new players who aren't able to field a full list and who often play using a random hodgepodge mix of their own units and those that have been borrowed and/or scavenged from friends for their game.

Instead, it's the unlimited detachments and faction-specific ones that are designed to accommodate the min/maxers.

Charistoph
27-12-2014, 10:36
Just to be clear, your saying there isn't a competitive problem with running unbound ? As if that is so, I'm more then a little surprised. Not even most of the hard liners would make such a claim. ( I will say however, before it is said, of course some people might use unbound to make truly fluff bunny super soft lists, sure, but I think that is more the exception and not the rule )

No, I was merely stating that the competitive environment usually has a problem with Unbound, just like it had a problem anything that was Opponent's Permission for a long time.

Not saying either is right or wrong, just existed.


Unbound is not 'listed' as opponents permission anywhere in the rule book. It might be polite to do so, but the kind of players that like to bring unbound are generally bringing the filth and are therefore not polite.

You mean "Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.", doesn't exist in Choosing Your Army? Good to know.


Tournements generally create their own brand of 'not quite 40k' with various comp. rules and restrictions which modify the core game because they want to level the playing field, that is not the kind of game (or the kind of environment) I am particularly interested in playing in, I'm talking about standard 'rule-book rules' 40k played at local club level.

Ah, but we were talking about the "competitive environment", weren't we? Is not tournaments where the true "competitive enviroment" exists?

Althenian Armourlost
27-12-2014, 10:57
Want to make special characters epic?

Use the house rule that if the character has double of more WS than the enemy, their attacks triple.

Makes them actually like they are in the fluff ;)

Spiney Norman
27-12-2014, 14:40
Ah, but we were talking about the "competitive environment", weren't we? Is not tournaments where the true "competitive enviroment" exists?

Right because competitive players never go down to their local club for a game, they only ever play in tournements...
Your implied dichotomy does not exist, I see highly competitve games in my local scene with highly competitive lists squaring off against each other. If you think that competitive lists only ever come out for tournements my guess is that you only ever play in tournements.

The kind of club where players only ever bring weak, fluffy lists for the fun of it is a complete fantasy in my experience, I don't preclude the possibility of such a setting existing, but I've lived in enough different places to know that it is not the norm.


I was under the impression that "unbound" was created to make the game more accessible to new players who aren't able to field a full list and who often play using a random hodgepodge mix of their own units and those that have been borrowed and/or scavenged from friends for their game.

Instead, it's the unlimited detachments and faction-specific ones that are designed to accommodate the min/maxers.

I'm not really clued up on all the detachments and so-forth in the various supplements, but I don't recall any that are particularly reviled (probably because all the 7th edition codexes so far have been fairly weak and the OP codexes from the previous edition which most power gamers base their lists on didn't have the fancy detachments).

Whatever the reason for making unbound they made the most abusable army-building system possible.

insectum7
27-12-2014, 15:41
Right because competitive players never go down to their local club for a game, they only ever play in tournements...
Your implied dichotomy does not exist, I see highly competitve games in my local scene with highly competitive lists squaring off against each other. If you think that competitive lists only ever come out for tournements my guess is that you only ever play in tournements.

Every competitive player I know tries to keep their form in well-practiced shape by always taking lists that are compatible with the tournaments they are expecting to play. Everyone else is pretty happy to go along with it. Thus, zero unbound.



The kind of club where players only ever bring WAAC, unbound lists for the d***erey of it is a complete fantasy in my experience, I don't preclude the possibility of such a setting existing, but I've lived in enough different places to know that it is not the norm.

Just my version.

Charistoph
27-12-2014, 16:30
Right because competitive players never go down to their local club for a game, they only ever play in tournements...
Your implied dichotomy does not exist, I see highly competitve games in my local scene with highly competitive lists squaring off against each other. If you think that competitive lists only ever come out for tournements my guess is that you only ever play in tournements.

The kind of club where players only ever bring weak, fluffy lists for the fun of it is a complete fantasy in my experience, I don't preclude the possibility of such a setting existing, but I've lived in enough different places to know that it is not the norm.

Well, I haven't seen your implied dichotomy, either. As Insectum7 said:

Every competitive player I know tries to keep their form in well-practiced shape by always taking lists that are compatible with the tournaments they are expecting to play. Everyone else is pretty happy to go along with it. Thus, zero unbound.

Now, the people you seem to be talking about, Spiney, are the ones who go to tournaments only to show off their epeen, and generally fail. So they then turn to a local group and show off with their "uber skills" and use "mad game knowledge" to browbeat someone in to playing their Unbound army "or else they won't get a game".

Voss
27-12-2014, 16:53
I was under the impression that "unbound" was created to make the game more accessible to new players who aren't able to field a full list and who often play using a random hodgepodge mix of their own units and those that have been borrowed and/or scavenged from friends for their game.

Instead, it's the unlimited detachments and faction-specific ones that are designed to accommodate the min/maxers.

Not at all. The white dwarf articles in the lead up to 7th were very specific about what unbound armies were for- building cheesy nonsense that would actively upset people. Spiney has ozendorph's very appropriate summary as his sig.

Like lords of war, it is so you will buy more things, not get by on what you have.

TheBearminator
27-12-2014, 20:00
A big skimmer (without sails) for DE. Hopefully not list a big raider, but something that resembles more to venoms.

A really big bug for nids. I think they could have scratched a few on the bigger bugs released the last years in favour of a giant LoW-bug.

Something less korny for chaos. An equivalent to the imp knight preferably.

Warlord Nazgred
27-12-2014, 20:30
I think I'll treat this thread as the op had intended rather then ranting on about whether I think the game is balanced or not....

I'd like to see plastic heirodule with plenty of option, I'm not normally a fan of replacing FW models but I think both heirodules and the harridan don't really fit in with the current tyranid aesthetic. To be honest I'd be happy with any big bug :)

For orks I'd just like to see the return of all the stompa variants after I lovingly converted mine to have a huge wrecking ball.

Spiney Norman
27-12-2014, 23:04
Every competitive player I know tries to keep their form in well-practiced shape by always taking lists that are compatible with the tournaments they are expecting to play. Everyone else is pretty happy to go along with it. Thus, zero unbound.



Just my version.

I'm not talking about Tournement players per se, but if you think nobody takes competitive lists in a casual environment you are living in a fools paradise. I also didn't say that everyone sees WAAC lists all the time (though I generally do), but your statement that unbound is never taken is clearly hyperbolic, and therefore false.


Well, I haven't seen your implied dichotomy, either. As Insectum7 said:


Now, the people you seem to be talking about, Spiney, are the ones who go to tournaments only to show off their epeen, and generally fail. So they then turn to a local group and show off with their "uber skills" and use "mad game knowledge" to browbeat someone in to playing their Unbound army "or else they won't get a game".

No the people I am, talking about are usually younger teens who play the game solely to rough their mates up by orienting their purchases around building the cheesiest list they can. They don't frequent tournements that I know of, and seem to spend most of their time pushing the army construction rules as much as possible. This is maybe 80% of the 40k players in my local club, the other 20% are older players who exclusively play age of darkness games to avoid playing the younger teens and because of what 7th edition did to the game. Everyone else has stopped playing 40k in favour of the Warmachine journeyman league or WFB end times campaign.

My choice essentially is to buy an army from forgeworld or play with the teens, which I am largely out of patience with, or drop 40k altogether.

The kind of abuses that exist in 7th should not be possible in a well designed game, the outlying lists now lie much too far 'off centre', and relying on people's good nature just fails when you are playing a genuinely competitive game. It's like playing D&D where the dungeon master is genuinely trying to kill all the player characters as quickly as possible.

insectum7
28-12-2014, 01:28
I'm not talking about Tournement players per se, but if you think nobody takes competitive lists in a casual environment you are living in a fools paradise. I also didn't say that everyone sees WAAC lists all the time (though I generally do), but your statement that unbound is never taken is clearly hyperbolic, and therefore false.


I think the only hyperbole here is your chosen interpretation of my statement. But so it goes.

Althenian Armourlost
28-12-2014, 01:36
My heart wants to see a dedicated ecclesiary knight titan.

Grand Master Raziel
28-12-2014, 06:27
About the only way GW would get me to shell out for one of these outsized superheavy kits is if they released some sort of Space Marine superheavy, but not something as ridiculously expensive as the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are Knight Titans, but those aren't part of a SM chapter's structure, they're Admech allies at best, and I'd want something specifically part of the chapter. Thing is, GW has given themselves a quandary - they want to sell more of the big kits, but their fluff doesn't allow them to market them as part of a SM Chapter, and Space Marines are their biggest draw.

MajorWesJanson
28-12-2014, 07:33
Want to make special characters epic?

Use the house rule that if the character has double of more WS than the enemy, their attacks triple.

Makes them actually like they are in the fluff ;)

I'd rather see the WS chart change to allow for 2s to hit and 6s to hit, but that is for another thread.

Space MArine Superheavies, I'd still look at the old Hercules command tank. It's in the fluff, largely forgotten, and would make for a nice buff-Lord of War rather than a straight up combat one. Also, FW already makes the obvious Lords of war- Thunderhawk, Spartan, and Fell Blade, and even the Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor (man is that thing a pain to build) as the intermediary between the THawk and Storm Raven.

WarsmithGarathor94
28-12-2014, 07:45
There can be only one.

You can only take one of each unit type, including troops and dedicated transports. With Troops units once you've purchased one of each type you can purchase a second only. A Marine army might look like this.

Chapter Master
Chaplain
Tactical Squad in Razorback
Scout Squad
Tactical Squad in Rhino
Assault Squad
Devastator Sqauad
Storm Talon.

Well that sucks the fun out of my csm army lol where i take 2 6 man units of noise marines as my troops

Spiney Norman
28-12-2014, 07:54
There can be only one.

You can only take one of each unit type, including troops and dedicated transports. With Troops units once you've purchased one of each type you can purchase a second only. A Marine army might look like this.

Chapter Master
Chaplain
Tactical Squad in Razorback
Scout Squad
Tactical Squad in Rhino
Assault Squad
Devastator Sqauad
Storm Talon.

That's a little unkind to certain armies, I'm thinking of Adepta Sororitas who only have one troops choice anyway, and dark Eldar, one of whose troop units is a bad joke invented by the codex author (wyches). Actually dark Eldar are really knocked for six by that because pretty much any infantry unit not in a transport in a DE army is free points for the enemy.

WarsmithGarathor94
28-12-2014, 08:42
That's a little unkind to certain armies, I'm thinking of Adepta Sororitas who only have one troops choice anyway, and dark Eldar, one of whose troop units is a bad joke invented by the codex author (wyches). Actually dark Eldar are really knocked for six by that because pretty much any infantry unit not in a transport in a DE army is free points for the enemy.

Its unkind to my csm too who im building as a mostly mech army

Ghazbad_Facestompa
28-12-2014, 09:23
Its unkind to my csm too who im building as a mostly mech army

I wouldn't be able to run my Fists under that either. Their backbone is tactical and devastator squads.

Still Standing
28-12-2014, 11:44
It reigns in the worst of the current abuses. No double Wraithknight, no triple flyers, no triple Riptides, no Wave Serpent spam. You aren't supposed to use your current list with it, you're supposed to write a Highlander style list. Allow me to give an example.

My old Thousand Sons list had 2x Tactical Support Squads with Volkite, 2x Heavy Support Squads 1 Autocannon, 1 Volkite. I just sat and shot my opponent off the table. I now run a more highlander type list (2 Librarians, no not quite) with basically 1 of everything, and I am having more fun, my opponents are having more fun. Win / win.

In the tournament scene it's starting to find traction, although I think it's an American thing for the most part still. Here have been a few fairly large Highlander tournaments in the UK though in recent months, from memory.

Born Again
28-12-2014, 13:45
I'd rather see the WS chart change to allow for 2s to hit and 6s to hit, but that is for another thread.


Agreed there, it doesn't make sense that you only need BS 5 (from a maximum 10) to get 2+ to hit, but in combat a WS10 vs WS1 needs the same as a WS10 vs WS9. But as you said, different thread.

On topic, I'm not sure if it would count as a LoW these days, but as it used to be an Epic unit, I nominate the Weirdboy Tower as well.

Spiney Norman
28-12-2014, 23:42
It reigns in the worst of the current abuses. No double Wraithknight, no triple flyers, no triple Riptides, no Wave Serpent spam. You aren't supposed to use your current list with it, you're supposed to write a Highlander style list. Allow me to give an example.

My old Thousand Sons list had 2x Tactical Support Squads with Volkite, 2x Heavy Support Squads 1 Autocannon, 1 Volkite. I just sat and shot my opponent off the table. I now run a more highlander type list (2 Librarians, no not quite) with basically 1 of everything, and I am having more fun, my opponents are having more fun. Win / win.

In the tournament scene it's starting to find traction, although I think it's an American thing for the most part still. Here have been a few fairly large Highlander tournaments in the UK though in recent months, from memory.

Comparing 40k to heresy is hardly fair, the Legion Astartes list is incredibly varied while many of the current 40k codexes are incredibly one-dimensional, trying to play dark Eldar with only one raider and one venom for example would be a total waste of time.

Still Standing
28-12-2014, 23:57
It was just an example from my current primary army. The general principle works for anybody. Yes, Dark Eldar suffer under Highlander. So does everybody except Marines (Combat squads). That's the point.

MajorWesJanson
29-12-2014, 00:54
Agreed there, it doesn't make sense that you only need BS 5 (from a maximum 10) to get 2+ to hit, but in combat a WS10 vs WS1 needs the same as a WS10 vs WS9. But as you said, different thread.

On topic, I'm not sure if it would count as a LoW these days, but as it used to be an Epic unit, I nominate the Weirdboy Tower as well.

I wish FW had made that weirdboy tower upgrade for the battlewagon they were thinking of. The concept art was awesome. Maybe next time they get around to orks.

Born Again
29-12-2014, 02:25
I haven't seen that. If anyone has a link to the concept art I'd appreciate it.

Althenian Armourlost
29-12-2014, 04:11
I haven't seen that. If anyone has a link to the concept art I'd appreciate it.

Some time ago, I actually made a weirdboy battletower out of a 2nd ed battlewagon for someone as a kit bash request, but I have moved countries 2 times since then and I have no photos. It's actually a great idea for a vehicle, easy to make, and completely possible and functional as a regular battlewagon with the current rules.

I used plastruct beams and armour plates to make the tower, and actually had a 2nd ed. wierdboy at the top - the one being fired like a cannon by 2 minders. Good times.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
29-12-2014, 06:19
It was just an example from my current primary army. The general principle works for anybody. Yes, Dark Eldar suffer under Highlander. So does everybody except Marines (Combat squads). That's the point.

The problem is, it makes some armies (Sisters especially, and DE to a slightly lesser extent) completely nonviable. It also completely removes a huge amount of perfectly thematic, fun to play (for both sides of the table), and perfectly balanced lists as options. If you want to rein in Wraithknight spam, Triptide, flyer spam, and serpentspam, there has to be a better way to do it.

Actually, how do IG platoons work with that idea?

Still Standing
29-12-2014, 07:17
The problem is, it makes some armies (Sisters especially, and DE to a slightly lesser extent) completely nonviable. It also completely removes a huge amount of perfectly thematic, fun to play (for both sides of the table), and perfectly balanced lists as options. If you want to rein in Wraithknight spam, Triptide, flyer spam, and serpentspam, there has to be a better way to do it.

Actually, how do IG platoons work with that idea?

It's for tournament play. Sisters are already nonviable.

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2015/201540Khighlander.pdf

TimLeeson
29-12-2014, 07:20
The Silent King would be my personal choice.

objectively speaking? They really really need to bring Vect back.

Spiney Norman
29-12-2014, 08:46
It's for tournament play. Sisters are already nonviable.

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2015/201540Khighlander.pdf

That's a little unkind, I think sisters could work in that size Tournement, note that there is a provision under those rules you can take as many sister squads as you like because you will always be fielding one of each of the troop squads available to you. This hurts dark Eldar way way more because it forces them to take wyches or run your army exclusively from the coven book.

A sister squad in a rhino, one in a repressor and a dominion melta squad in a MM Immolator supported by an exorcist and inquisitorial detachment with a Land raider could be interesting, I'd probably throw in my trio of penitent engines as well just for lols.

Still Standing
29-12-2014, 08:56
Or an Avenger.

For Dark Eldar it just means you go back to old style min size units with Dark Lances hiding in woods.

CrownAxe
29-12-2014, 12:23
Or an Avenger.

For Dark Eldar it just means you go back to old style min size units with Dark Lances hiding in woods.

Which isn't good. Dark Lances are awful in 7ed

Nazguire
29-12-2014, 12:31
The Silent King would be my personal choice.

objectively speaking? They really really need to bring Vect back.

Don't be stupid. Only the Space Marines are allowed to retain all their Codex choices without anything being deleted.

Still Standing
29-12-2014, 13:57
Don't be stupid. Only the Space Marines are allowed to retain all their Codex choices without anything being deleted.

Cortez says hello.

Yvain
29-12-2014, 14:57
Sly Marbo

IG LOW: 150 Points

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
5 5 3 3 2 5 4 8 5++

Fearless, Feel No Pain, Fleet, Hit and Run, Move Through Cover, Stealth, Shrouded

Loner: Marbo may never be joined by another character

He Is Behind You!: Marbo always starts in reserve. When Marbo enters play he may be placed anywhere on the battlefield as long as he is one inch away from any enemy model.

Ambush: On the first round of close combat, all Marbo's attacks count as AP2.

Did We Get Him?: If Marbo loses his final wound remove him from the table. On the owning player's next turn roll a D6. On a 6, Marbo re-enters play with all war gear and wounds restored. If Marbo is not present on the table by the end of the game, your opponent scores 1 victory point.

Wargear:
Reflactor Field
Frag Grenades
Melta Bombs
Demo Charge
Ripper Pistol : SX AP2 Pistol Sniper
Envenomed Blade: Melee Poison 3+

Probably OP as hell, but I don't care. Marbo is the best :P

Still Standing
29-12-2014, 15:30
I was actually thinking "glad you're not taking another Leman Russ."

That is elite slot worthy, not LoW.

Spiney Norman
29-12-2014, 22:26
Or an Avenger.

For Dark Eldar it just means you go back to old style min size units with Dark Lances hiding in woods.

It also means you have to write off at least 50pts on wyches just to meet your troops criteria, and I dislike the gamey-ness of writing off x pts as a 'tax' by bringing a completely useless unit that dippy Tournement restrictions have forced me to take.

Lance warriors are awful too, a blaster squad in a venom would be fair, but since you can only bring one venom it will be shot down in the first turn of the game.

Still Standing
29-12-2014, 22:41
Don't attend a Highlander tournament then.

Bear in mind you won't be facing down 5 Wave Serpents etc, which makes your requirement for transports considerably less desperate.

Grand Master Raziel
30-12-2014, 20:26
I'm actually pushing a similar set of house rules for a new batch of players I'm mentoring in their intro to 40K - no duplicate units outside of Troops. However, I didn't put any restrictions on dedicated transports, because some armies need them pretty badly to be effective. This does leave the possibility of Serpent Spam abuse, as there is an Eldar player in this new group. However, her available collection doesn't currently contain any Wave Serpents, and I've let her know if she does get any, I'm imposing a mild nerf - the Serpent Shield won't benefit from the Scatter Laser's Laser Lock rule. Doesn't make much sense that it would anyway, as the SS seems to me like it's supposed to represent an area-of-effect weapon rather than one aimed at specific targets. I don't know if that'd be enough to tone down Serpent Spam with a player fielding umpteenth bazillion Serpents, but it's something.

As for a Lord of War I'd like to see, I'd kind of like to see a scaled-up, Knight Titan-sized Dreadnought. I like the Contemptor's abilities, but I'm not entirely keen on the appearance, and it'd need to be scaled up to be a proper LoW anyway.

Althenian Armourlost
01-01-2015, 07:13
No duplicates outside of troops?

So taking 5 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers in each is okay, but all other armies get punished?

Still Standing
01-01-2015, 11:17
No duplicates outside of troops?

So taking 5 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers in each is okay, but all other armies get punished?

Try reading.

Grand Master Raziel
01-01-2015, 15:53
No duplicates outside of troops?

So taking 5 wave serpents with 5 dire avengers in each is okay, but all other armies get punished?

A: As previously mentioned, Wave Serpents are getting a nerf, should any show up.

B: Also as previously mentioned, the Eldar player doesn't have any Wave Serpents, and I doubt she's going to go drop a couple hundred bucks on them simply so she can cheese it up amongst a small group of friends.

C: We're all friends in this group. I think we can trust each other to play within both the spirit of the house rules and the spirit of the game.

D: These are house rules for a gaming group, not comp rules for a tournament. If they need changing, they'll be changed.

Commissar Davis
01-01-2015, 21:18
I am not sure that I could wish for more super heavies for Imperial Guard, just a few smaller things brought back.

I do think that named characters that are HQs should be LoW, and that they should have stats and/or special rules that make them that legendary being, and should be the only way of having a HQ that moves things in the FOC outside of supplements.

carldooley
02-01-2015, 11:18
I will admit to coming to this thread a bit late, but a couple things.
1. Saying this as a Tau player with 3 riptides, they shouldn't have been released. Something that would have been more flavorful would have been a list of signature systems that could be taken instead. think a reactor upgrade for hammerheads that could upgrade the railgun to StrD, a 3++, etc.
2. I wouldn't mind seeing the Marbo listed above (I don't play guard anymore)
3. I wouldn't mind seeing a Tzeentch Greater Daemon with WS1 BS1, with ML10, and the ability to sacrifice MLs each turn to boost either BS or WS.

nosebiter
02-01-2015, 11:38
I would like to see the riptide being repourposed as a commander suit and moved to LoW. Or just moved to LoW, the same for the wraithknight.

Emperor Karl Franz
02-01-2015, 13:01
Resurrected Primarch's as Space Marine Lords of War.

Massively strengthened and much larger Avatar of Khaine as Eldar Lord of War.

Chaos Knights as Chaos Marine Lords of War.

Bigger and more powerful Greater Daemons as Chaos Daemon Lords of War.

Kaiju style beasts as Tyranid Lords of War.

And I love the idea of Sly Marbo being massively upgraded and rereleased as a Lord of War.

WarsmithGarathor94
02-01-2015, 15:11
Saying that under high lander my csm do kind of becone interesting
Tzeench termie lord tzeench warp smith 5 csm tzeench melta combi melta in a dread claw same 5 man squad in a rhino 35 cultists 31 autoguns 3 stubbers shotgun on champ decimator daemon engine ferrus infernum dread 4 termies in land raider fast is a hellblade + helltalon + storm eagle. Heavy is a unit of oblits sicarian and fure raptor

Grand Master Raziel
02-01-2015, 19:43
I will admit to coming to this thread a bit late, but a couple things.
1. Saying this as a Tau player with 3 riptides, they shouldn't have been released. Something that would have been more flavorful would have been a list of signature systems that could be taken instead. think a reactor upgrade for hammerheads that could upgrade the railgun to StrD, a 3++, etc.

I wouldn't mind the Riptide near as much as I do if it was a Heavy Support choice. Putting it in Elites makes it the Tau's version of Chaos 3.5's Obliterators.

Still Standing
02-01-2015, 20:57
I wouldn't mind the Riptide near as much as I do if it was a Heavy Support choice. Putting it in Elites makes it the Tau's version of Chaos 3.5's Obliterators.

So a completely fluffy and non-power gamey option, according to people who want "themed" and "fun" armies and are not happy with the current balance book?

Grand Master Raziel
02-01-2015, 21:52
I can understand a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the current Codex: CSM, but anybody saying Obliterators shouldn't be a Heavy Support choice is either trolling or their judgment is suspect.

Voss
03-01-2015, 01:31
I can understand a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the current Codex: CSM, but anybody saying Obliterators shouldn't be a Heavy Support choice is either trolling or their judgment is suspect.

Er, why? They're ridiculous as 1 choice of 3* in one slot but not another because reasons? Thematically they fit in better with terminators, dreads and maulers than they do with a pile of vehicles plus devastators.

*except of course, in 7th edition, where its easily 6 or 9, or infinite.

AngryAngel
03-01-2015, 01:55
I can see them in elites or in heavies. They just don't have a lot of viable competition in elites that end up quite as good, imo of course. I don't think GMR is saying they can't fit in elite, but in elite they end up something of a no brainer choice ( which I've found to be true in about 90 % of chaos lists I've seen/played against. ) Which is why he'd think they fit in more with heavies with maybe a bit more competition, maybe not. No brainer options really aren't the trademark of balance. This isn't a singular GW sin however, but when you get to them, they should be fixed, for the very least to promote list diversity.

Althenian Armourlost
03-01-2015, 02:05
GW doesn't want to promote list diversity, they want to promote sales.

Need 6 storm talons to make use of the 'invincible spam formation' until everyone else in your gaming group has to buy new AA units and flyers to get past turn 3?

Only 27.50 per flyer!

Inquisitor Kallus
03-01-2015, 03:53
Er, why? They're ridiculous as 1 choice of 3* in one slot but not another because reasons? Thematically they fit in better with terminators, dreads and maulers than they do with a pile of vehicles plus devastators.

*except of course, in 7th edition, where its easily 6 or 9, or infinite.

Obliterators make far more sense in the HS slot because they all carry heavy/specialist weapons. Theyre definitely not FA as theyre not fast, and id say fit better in HS than elite because they provide the big guns. I wouldnt be averse to having them as elites but HS suits them better

Losing Command
03-01-2015, 05:31
...Theyre definitely not FA as theyre not fat...

To me they do look rather fat though. Those guys could surely use some time on the treadmill and slim that Slow and Purposefull down to Relentless ;)

Inquisitor Kallus
03-01-2015, 05:51
To me they do look rather fat though. Those guys could surely use some time on the treadmill and slim that Slow and Purposefull down to Relentless ;)

hahaa, just saw that, thanks for pointing it out