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Lord Dan
27-12-2014, 14:17
The question posed in the thread about the color scheme for an Eternity King list had me wondering: if GW went ahead and formally released a combined army book titled Warhammer: Elves, which units from the existing 3 army books would stay? Obviously they couldn't keep all of them, both from a redundancy and practicality standpoint, so I wonder who would be left?

I suspect a few things, and, remember - there is a lot to cut if you're going to combine 3 books into 1:

1. Khainite units would be all gone, because they simply can't integrate into New Elf society (sorry, Dark Elf players).
2. Repeat units are combined, with instances of superior or specialized units in one army (Wood Elf bowmen vs. High Elf bowmen, for instance) taking precedence.
3. Ocean-themed units are gone (Seaguard, Corsairs, their heroes, and the Kharibsdgjkhdbhzhw-thing) because the Elves don't have a port anymore.
4. "Evil" monsters like Harpies, Cold Ones and, with the loss of the Kharibsdgjkhdbhzhw-thing, Hydras are gone.
5. The 3 guard units, namely, Black Guard, Pheonix Guard, and Eternal Guard, are combined into a single Halberd-wielding bodyguard unit named Eternity Guard or something.
6. Crossbows or bows are gone. I'm not sure about which one, it just doesn't make sense to keep both. I'm leaning toward bows staying, though, as crossbows seem too industrial for the forest and a majority of the Elves would know how to use bows.
7. For army rules: ASF, fight in an extra rank, armor piercing on all weapons, re-roll 1's to wound in combat.
8. Chariots don't work in woods, so...

That said, let's take a look at what that might translate into:


Lords
Elven Lord
Elven Archmage
Elven Loremaster
Treeman Ancient
This is probably the most straightforward of the bunch, simply because this section is already so similar. Beastmasters, Fleetmasters, and the Pheonix Lord guy were all dropped because they simply don't have a role in New Elf society (they don't need to beat monsters anymore, they don't have an ocean, and the Pheonix-themed stuff went down with Ulthuan). Treeman and Loremasters stay because they fulfill unique roles, and could feasibly hang around after the rejoining of the races.



Heroes
Elven Noble
Elven Mage
Dragon Mage
Branchwraith

I'm not intentionally cutting Dark Elf stuff, I promise, it's just kind of turning out that way in these first two sections. Assassins, Hags, and the somewhat tacked-on "demi-hero" units like Handmaidens, Waystalkers, and Shadowdancers are gone.


Core
Elven Warriors (Spear/Shield or Sword/Shield)
Elven Bowmen
Elven Reavers
Dryads
Welcome back to core tax land! Let's walk through this logically: Eternal Guard are gone, Witches are gone, Dark Riders, Glade Riders, and Reavers are combined into one unit, Silver Helms will be combined with Dragon Princes and Cold Ones into a single special unit, and everything else is just combined. Yay?


Special
Tree Kin
Eternity Guard (Stubborn, HA, Halberds, etc.)
Swordmasters
Elven Rangers (combine WWR with White Lions - give them S4, lose stubborn, lose cloaks, lose the weird bonus attack rule, give them Vanguard)
Elven Knights (S4)
Bolt Thrower
Warhawk Riders



Rare
Sisters of the Thorn (make them slightly better or cheaper, move them to rare)
Pheonix...es
Waywatchers
Great Eagles
Treemen
The special and rare sections are pretty self-explanatory, because if it hasn't been combined or omitted, it's included.

Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

Drasanil
27-12-2014, 15:02
Considering ET: Khaine went out of its way to mention most of the monsters like hydras survived and found places in Loren, I think you missed some stuff. As for the bow/crossbows, depending on how units get done if 9th edition 'elves' book is released it could just be an option for various units load outs allowing GW to keep selling those new plastic units (Dark riders, darkshards).

CountUlrich
27-12-2014, 15:14
I think you are utterly clueless if you think GW are just throwing away the moulds for all of the kits you just axed in that post. You do not understand business at all whatsoever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lord Dan
27-12-2014, 15:35
I think you are utterly clueless if you think GW are just throwing away the moulds for all of the kits you just axed in that post. You do not understand business at all whatsoever.

You need to work on your manners. My degree is in economics - I understand business just fine.

It's clear that if GW were to combine the army books it would be because they found the current range unmanageable, and were looking for a way to streamline Warhammer and bring their costs down in line with what they perceive as lagging demand. Otherwise why bother? If the point was to introduce something similar to unbound, and encourage people to buy more stuff, they could simply introduce unbound in 9th edition for a lot less money. Let's not forget that GW has tossed molds for under-performing products in the past - Dogs of War is a noteworthy example. Real estate for boxes and blisters is expensive, after all, and they've already taken a lot of their slower-selling items off of shelves and moved them to direct-only status. Taking it one step further is hardly out of the realm of possibility.

While I may have gone a bit heavy-handed on the cuts (Dasanil made an excellent point about Hydras), if the books were combined they would have to cut some things simply to avoid confusion: Reaper vs. Repeater Bolt throwers, for instance.

So contribute something meaningful or contribute nothing. Your rudeness is unwelcome and unwarranted.

theunwantedbeing
27-12-2014, 15:46
They'de cut the entire range and combine it into the dwarf list as they're basically the same thing :)

Foulacy
27-12-2014, 16:00
Can't see them cutting that much stuff, no way! I can't see any plastic kits getting cut unless they're really old maybe.

copesh
27-12-2014, 18:46
I would hope they don't cut the chariots. The skycutter is my fav unit.
Perhaps they could give all the elf chariots Forest Strider. :D

I also don't think they that would eliminate all the pheonix elements. I agree that the Guard units would be combined but I would hope that the Annointed would stay. He is, in my opinion, the best lord choice in the HE list.
Also, the core units would be combined - it makes sense.

Scammel
27-12-2014, 19:13
It's clear that if GW were to combine the army books it would be because they found the current range unmanageable, and were looking for a way to streamline Warhammer and bring their costs down in line with what they perceive as lagging demand. Otherwise why bother? If the point was to introduce something similar to unbound, and encourage people to buy more stuff, they could simply introduce unbound in 9th edition for a lot less money. Let's not forget that GW has tossed molds for under-performing products in the past - Dogs of War is a noteworthy example. Real estate for boxes and blisters is expensive, after all, and they've already taken a lot of their slower-selling items off of shelves and moved them to direct-only status. Taking it one step further is hardly out of the realm of possibility.

There's a pretty significant divorce between the units you're cutting on the basis of background and the units that GW have recently invested in. I think the background detailing the survival of the Hydras is less important that the fact that Hydras got updated quite recently, and the same goes for units such as Witches and Eternal Guard.

Spiney Norman
27-12-2014, 23:43
Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

Sorry is this an entirely intellectual exercise? I can't help but thinking that anything that involves GW scrapping around half of their new, beautiful and very profitable Dark elf plastic kits (at the minimum the cauldron, witch elves, and hydra/Kharibdyss are completely redundant, plus several builds from other plastic kits) is simply not going to happen, now or ever.

Trying to work out what they were going for with the combined elf book is a bit difficult because the ranges are extremely complex and have a lot of overlap/redundancy, in the case of a combined undead book about the only overlap is skeleton infantry/cavalry and the guard elites which can be fairly easily solved by dropping the ancient (and ugly) tomb king core infantry/cavalry sets which have long had their day, and allowing the guard unit to be equipped with light/heavy armour and Halberds/great weapons as purchasable options making both plastic kits usable

Lord Dan
28-12-2014, 00:12
Sorry is this an entirely intellectual exercise?

Yes, it is.

Leogun_91
28-12-2014, 01:11
GW has in their later editions made sure not to remove units from the previous, no 8th edition army book has afaik invalidated a previous unit (poor rules does not count and neither does renaming/refluffing etc, only lack of rules) and with that I believe the same would be true for this update, there are however units that can be combined without that happening. My thoughts would be.

Lords
For Lords Elf Lord and Elf Archmage will combine the different spellcaster and basic fighter lords from the books and are basically guaranteed to happen if the books are joined. No model invalidated. All previous mounts available though the dragons may be combined in some way.
Freeman Ancient is probably kept. Though it could possibly turn to merely a rare unit rather than both lord and a rare I suspect it keeps it's role. No model invalidated.
High Beastmaster is dropped, elf lord gets its mount options. It can be played as an Elf Lord. No model invalidated.
Black Ark Fleetmaster dropped, Sea Dragon cloak is an option for Elf Lord. No model invalidated.
Anointed of Asuryan, this is slightly harder, it has a more unique role hard to replace with elf lord, might be dropped in which case elf lords get phoenixes as mount options or might be kept. Possibly invalidated model.
Lore master of Hoeth, I would suspect it to be kept. No model invalidated.
That would make for a total of 4-5 lord choices, most acceptable.

Heroes
Elf Noble and Elf Mage makes an as straightforward combination as their lord equivalent.
Dragon Mage, drop it and give sun dragon mount (or equivalent after it's decided what dragons to keep) to mages and add a fluff burb about dragon mages. No model invalidated.
Lothern Sea Helm , drop and give elf noble lothern sky cutter mount option. No model invalidated.
Handmaiden of the Everqueen, dropped for Bow of Avevlorn choice to Elf noble. No model invalidated.
Death Hag, hard to replace, probably kept. No model invalidated.
Assassin, made a bit more generic in fluff (not all Khainite) and kept. No model invalidated.
Shadowdancer, kept. No model invalidated.
Waystalker, dropped for a magic bow that gives waywatcherlike rules. No model invalidated.
Branchwraith, kept. No model invalidated.
6 Heroes, many but not unmanageable.

Core
Glade Guard and HE Archers combined. No model invalidated.
Dryads, Kept. No model invalidated.
Glade Riders, Ellyrian Reavers and Dark Riders combined. No model invalidated.
Eternal Guard, Spearmen, Lothern Seaguard (through bow option) and Dreadspears combined. No model invalidated.
Bleakswords and darkshards combined. No model invalidated.
Corsairs kept. No model invalidated.
Witch Elves kept, one unit can be upgraded to Sisters of Slaughters for X. No model invalidated.
Silver Helms (Elven Knights now), one unit can be upgraded to Dragon Princes. No model invalidated.
8 Core units, many but manageable.

Special
Lion Chariot, Tiranoc Chariot, Cold One Chariot and Scourgerunner chariot combined to one chariot with different beast and equipment options. No model invalidated.
White Lions, Executioners and Wildwood rangers combined, wildwood rangers base with white lion cloaks as an equipment option and the executioners axes as another (granting killing blow). No model invalidated.
Swords masters kept. No model invalidated.
Shadow warriors, combined with deepwood scouts and shades, one unit can be upgraded to waywatchers. No model invalidated.
Phoenix Guard combined with Black Guard. No model invalidated.
Sky cutter kept. No model invalidated.
Repeater Bolt Thrower and Eagle Claw Bolt thrower combined to the exact same thing they already are. No model invalidated.
Cold One Knights kept. No model invalidated.
Harpies. Might be dropped, beast men have them. Models invalidated.
Hydra, kept. No model invalidated.
Wardancers, kept. No model invalidated.
Tree kin kept. No model invalidated.
Warhawk Riders kept. No model invalidated.
Sisters of the Thorn, combined with warlocks (Sorcerous riders or something) with different spell choices available. No model invalidated.
Wild Riders kept. No model invalidated.
That gives a whopping 13 Special, that starts to be a bit much but it's not a catastrophe.

Rare
Great Eagles, kept. No model invalidated.
Treeman kept. No model invalidated.
Bloodwrack Medusa/Bloodwrack Shrine, kept, possible that Bloodwrack shrine is just an upgrade for Medusa. No model invalidated.
Kharybdis kept. No model invalidated.
Phoenixes kept. No model invalidated.
Sisters of Averlorn, might be kept. No model invalidated if they are.
That's a managable 6-8 units.

This brings the total choices to 37-40 for reference Orcs and Goblins have 43. Both are calculated without special characters.

forseer of fates
28-12-2014, 01:16
Actually it gives the name of black and phoenix guard combined, the shadow fire guard I believe, and shows you a symbol under which will represent the new elves. My monies on eternity elves as the new name, I see can some units disappearing aswell, why take spearmen when there is eternal guard and so on.

Phenatix
29-12-2014, 07:15
Chances are witch elves aren't going anywhere. GW just released a nre, mighty expensive, kit for them and would miss out on all sorts of sales if the unit stopped existing in a month or two.

innerwolf
29-12-2014, 08:17
GW has in their later editions made sure not to remove units from the previous, no 8th edition army book has afaik invalidated a previous unit (poor rules does not count and neither does renaming/refluffing etc, only lack of rules) and with that I believe the same would be true for this update, there are however units that can be combined without that happening. My thoughts would be.

Lords
For Lords Elf Lord and Elf Archmage will combine the different spellcaster and basic fighter lords from the books and are basically guaranteed to happen if the books are joined. No model invalidated. All previous mounts available though the dragons may be combined in some way.
Freeman Ancient is probably kept. Though it could possibly turn to merely a rare unit rather than both lord and a rare I suspect it keeps it's role. No model invalidated.
High Beastmaster is dropped, elf lord gets its mount options. It can be played as an Elf Lord. No model invalidated.
Black Ark Fleetmaster dropped, Sea Dragon cloak is an option for Elf Lord. No model invalidated.
Anointed of Asuryan, this is slightly harder, it has a more unique role hard to replace with elf lord, might be dropped in which case elf lords get phoenixes as mount options or might be kept. Possibly invalidated model.
Lore master of Hoeth, I would suspect it to be kept. No model invalidated.
That would make for a total of 4-5 lord choices, most acceptable.

Heroes
Elf Noble and Elf Mage makes an as straightforward combination as their lord equivalent.
Dragon Mage, drop it and give sun dragon mount (or equivalent after it's decided what dragons to keep) to mages and add a fluff burb about dragon mages. No model invalidated.
Lothern Sea Helm , drop and give elf noble lothern sky cutter mount option. No model invalidated.
Handmaiden of the Everqueen, dropped for Bow of Avevlorn choice to Elf noble. No model invalidated.
Death Hag, hard to replace, probably kept. No model invalidated.
Assassin, made a bit more generic in fluff (not all Khainite) and kept. No model invalidated.
Shadowdancer, kept. No model invalidated.
Waystalker, dropped for a magic bow that gives waywatcherlike rules. No model invalidated.
Branchwraith, kept. No model invalidated.
6 Heroes, many but not unmanageable.

Core
Glade Guard and HE Archers combined. No model invalidated.
Dryads, Kept. No model invalidated.
Glade Riders, Ellyrian Reavers and Dark Riders combined. No model invalidated.
Eternal Guard, Spearmen, Lothern Seaguard (through bow option) and Dreadspears combined. No model invalidated.
Bleakswords and darkshards combined. No model invalidated.
Corsairs kept. No model invalidated.
Witch Elves kept, one unit can be upgraded to Sisters of Slaughters for X. No model invalidated.
Silver Helms (Elven Knights now), one unit can be upgraded to Dragon Princes. No model invalidated.
8 Core units, many but manageable.

Special
Lion Chariot, Tiranoc Chariot, Cold One Chariot and Scourgerunner chariot combined to one chariot with different beast and equipment options. No model invalidated.
White Lions, Executioners and Wildwood rangers combined, wildwood rangers base with white lion cloaks as an equipment option and the executioners axes as another (granting killing blow). No model invalidated.
Swords masters kept. No model invalidated.
Shadow warriors, combined with deepwood scouts and shades, one unit can be upgraded to waywatchers. No model invalidated.
Phoenix Guard combined with Black Guard. No model invalidated.
Sky cutter kept. No model invalidated.
Repeater Bolt Thrower and Eagle Claw Bolt thrower combined to the exact same thing they already are. No model invalidated.
Cold One Knights kept. No model invalidated.
Harpies. Might be dropped, beast men have them. Models invalidated.
Hydra, kept. No model invalidated.
Wardancers, kept. No model invalidated.
Tree kin kept. No model invalidated.
Warhawk Riders kept. No model invalidated.
Sisters of the Thorn, combined with warlocks (Sorcerous riders or something) with different spell choices available. No model invalidated.
Wild Riders kept. No model invalidated.
That gives a whopping 13 Special, that starts to be a bit much but it's not a catastrophe.

Rare
Great Eagles, kept. No model invalidated.
Treeman kept. No model invalidated.
Bloodwrack Medusa/Bloodwrack Shrine, kept, possible that Bloodwrack shrine is just an upgrade for Medusa. No model invalidated.
Kharybdis kept. No model invalidated.
Phoenixes kept. No model invalidated.
Sisters of Averlorn, might be kept. No model invalidated if they are.
That's a managable 6-8 units.

This brings the total choices to 37-40 for reference Orcs and Goblins have 43. Both are calculated without special characters.

This list makes a lot more sense than the butchered, bland Elf list in the first post. No offense Lord Dan, but you proposed taking away almost everything which makes playing elven armies special.

I would count on plastic units released after the White Lions chariot to stay. Or at least anything released since 2010. The remaining units would be combined in ways which makes sense (like the alternative equipment options Leogun mentioned), or given a new background. It's easy to imagine GW giving elves Brettonia in their hypothetical new book, granting them open ground for their chariots and access to the sea for their naval units. It's background it can be rewritten ;)

N00B
29-12-2014, 15:37
I would expect to see something like the warriors of chaos book. A lot of units with marks that could be taken to differentiate them. I would see the obvious High/Dark/Wood split but also a "Naval elves" theme. This would give special rules then some extra weapons/mount options. So you get elvish warriors - pay for spears, armour, crosbows etc. pay for martial prowess or murderous prowess etc. (or pick one for free).

Same for elvish cavalry in core and elvish knights in special (that let you build wild riders, cold ones dragon princes or silverhelms)

Doommasters
29-12-2014, 20:04
Even though I love the Wood Elves I feel you could keep their spirit alive in a combined elves book with few units.

Core: Glade guard & Dryads

Special: Treekin, wild riders and sisters of thorn (given they are a multi kit)

Rare: way watchers & treeman

HQ: Treeman ancient & Waystalker (both need improvements)

If these units are kept I feel you could still build a 'WE' force while complementing a wider elves book.

Elves should also get a special rule when fighting/casting in s forest. The Treeman ancient should also come with a special rule that allows him to place s forest before deployment.

As far as mages go, high elves have that pretty well covered and simply adding a special rule that gives them +1 to cast in a forest would satisfy me at least.

infamousme
30-12-2014, 00:36
As far as im concerned, End Times: Khaine already has the Warhammer: Elves book covered. I'm not sure why we would have to lose units.
I understand that spearmen from HE & DE are kind of redundant, but thats about it.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 01:07
As far as im concerned, End Times: Khaine already has the Warhammer: Elves book covered. I'm not sure why we would have to lose units.
I understand that spearmen from HE & DE are kind of redundant, but thats about it.

Too be fair, eternal guard are kind of redundant too, they just have slightly bumped up stats. As are glade riders/reaver knights, archers/archers and so on and so forth. If GW puts out a 9th edition 'Elves' book, you can be sure there will be some consolidation on the unit entry level at least. If not some outright consolidation on the kit/model level further down the road.

Voss
30-12-2014, 01:15
Leogun's list is pretty good, but I'd keep an eye out for anything that hasn't passed from metal or finecast. (treekin, eagles, etc). Easy victims for a cut, there.


As far as im concerned, End Times: Khaine already has the Warhammer: Elves book covered. I'm not sure why we would have to lose units.
I understand that spearmen from HE & DE are kind of redundant, but thats about it.

Spearmen (and WE spearmen, with their shiny new kit that looked suspiciously like high elf spearmen in the first place) and archers and fastcav and bolt-throwers and great weapon infantry and halberdiers and chariots and 5 breeds of dragon. Off the top of my head, anyway. I could easily find more.

infamousme
30-12-2014, 01:17
Eternal guard are not redundant with spearmen. Eternal guard have a stat boost plus are stubborn.

Glade riders have ambush and enchanted arrows, reaver knights dont. Reavers also have light armor which the glade riders are lacking.

High elf archers and wood elf archers are very similar barring their equipment options (HE armor, WE enchanted arrows)

@ those who think maiden guard and sisters of avelorn would be taken out, my question is why? There is still an everqueen, no more avelorn though.

Voss
30-12-2014, 01:20
Eternal guard are not redundant with spearmen. Eternal guard have a stat boost plus are stubborn.
Glade riders have ambush, reaver knights dont. Reavers also have light armor which the glade riders are lacking.

High elf archers and wood elf archers are very similar barring their equipment options (HE armor, WE enchanted arrows)
Yep, stats, rules and equipment options that have changed with every other book release anyway., nothing defining about the units. Glade riders haven't even had ambush for a full year yet.

Even if they do stay as solely individual armies, their next army books have a good chance of changing those exact things. I certainly remember when almost none of the things you just cited were true.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 01:33
Eternal guard are not redundant with spearmen. Eternal guard have a stat boost plus are stubborn.

Wooptido they have stubborn and a slight stat bump, clearly they aren't redundant after all! I mean they just fill the same role as their high/dark elven counterparts, with the added bonus of some slight boosts to allow them to do it in a list that was otherwise not designed for them. No sir, not redundant at all.


Glade riders have ambush, reaver knights dont. Reavers also have light armor which the glade riders are lacking.

Ambush is a recent development, a tweak, a quirk of book changes and one that can just as easily be rolled back nor does it really make their purpose all that different than other fast cav. That reavers have light armor [the new IoB models also have barding btw which didn't make it into their rules] and they have ambush doesn't mean that they are any less redundant. GW could easily consolidate the option if they chose to going forward.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 01:49
(and WE spearmen, with their shiny new kit that looked suspiciously like high elf spearmen in the first place)

Now that you mention it. The other half of that kit, the rangers, look suspiciously like the 4th edition art for DE executioners, just stick one triangle/spike on the top of their hoods and bam old school executioners.

infamousme
30-12-2014, 01:50
Stubborn plus stat boost, sounds to me like a different unit. Would you say that white lions and swordmasters should just be combined. White lions have a strength boost and swordmasters have a WS and A boost. They have a few different special rules as well, but i mean they both have great weapons and heavy armor, so they dont need to be separate right?

Voss
30-12-2014, 01:51
Stubborn plus stat boost, sounds to me like a different unit. Would you say that white lions and swordmasters should just be combined. White lions have a strength boost and swordmasters have a WS and A boost. They have a few different special rules as well, but i mean they both have great weapons and heavy armor, so they dont need to be separate right?
True.
Four great weapon elf infantry is certainly excessive.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 01:58
Stubborn plus stat boost, sounds to me like a different unit. Would you say that white lions and swordmasters should just be combined. White lions have a strength boost and swordmasters have a WS and A boost. They have a few different special rules as well, but i mean they both have great weapons and heavy armor, so they dont need to be separate right?

1) Eternal Guard are really just spearmen+1. That is it, they don't fill a unique role and were never all that distinct from their DE/HE counter parts, they got slightly better stats to allow them to do their job in a list that was otherwise not suited to their presence. They have and will always be the wood elf version of 'generic GW elf spearmen'.

2) White Lions/Swordmasters could be consolidated into a single unit entry if GW chose. After all as you say, they are both heavy armor wearing, great weapon wielding elves. Same way Black/Phoenix Guard could easily be merged.

3) Funnily enough despite all this, GW put more effort into thematically distinguishing WLs/SMs than they ever did in distinguishing DE/HE/WE spearmen. What does that tell you about how special Eternal Guard are?

CariadocThorne
30-12-2014, 02:45
Eternal guard are massively different from regular spearmen, and they do fit in with the rest of the list, where regular spearmen wouldn't.

Since their introduction 10 years ago they have been a semi-elite unit with a couple of specific roles, depending on the style of army. They have stat-boosts and stubborn to help them fulfil those roles as regular spearmen just can't do it.

On another note, I see assassins and waystalkers merging, rather than the assassins staying and waystalkers becoming just a magic bow on a regular hero.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 03:12
Eternal guard are massively different from regular spearmen, and they do fit in with the rest of the list, where regular spearmen wouldn't.

Since their introduction 10 years ago they have been a semi-elite unit with a couple of specific roles, depending on the style of army. They have stat-boosts and stubborn to help them fulfil those roles as regular spearmen just can't do it.

They were introduced as an updated version of the old wood elf spearmen and filled the same role as a 'proper' static resolution generating combat block/speedbump. That they are a little more elite because they are the only such unit wood elves have really had up until this point doesn't mean that they aren't largely the same thing, especially if the lists were to be permanently combined.

Sarael
30-12-2014, 03:25
I expect that, when ET ends next year sometime, Malekith will either have been driven from Ulthuan or dead. I expect that High/Dark elves will be in guerilla war with eachother. Wood elves will retreat back to the Old World and stay out of those skirmishes, aside from a force behind under the command of Alarielle (who might become a WE character option in addition to HE). I doubt GW will combine all 3 elves into one army under Malekith for the long term.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 03:35
I expect that, when ET ends next year sometime, Malekith will either have been driven from Ulthuan or dead. I expect that High/Dark elves will be in guerilla war with eachother. Wood elves will retreat back to the Old World and stay out of those skirmishes, aside from a force behind under the command of Alarielle (who might become a WE character option in addition to HE). I doubt GW will combine all 3 elves into one army under Malekith for the long term.

Reading your post, I'm fairly confident that you haven't actually read ET:Khaine or paid attention to the resulting fall out in the forums.

There's no 'Ulthuan' left for starters.

infamousme
30-12-2014, 03:39
I expect that, when ET ends next year sometime, Malekith will either have been driven from Ulthuan or dead. I expect that High/Dark elves will be in guerilla war with eachother. Wood elves will retreat back to the Old World and stay out of those skirmishes, aside from a force behind under the command of Alarielle (who might become a WE character option in addition to HE). I doubt GW will combine all 3 elves into one army under Malekith for the long term.
The elves live in Athel Loren. Ulthuan is gone.

scruffyryan
30-12-2014, 04:53
EG are stubborn because WE like to fight in forests and they cant be steadfast if they do.

Argive
30-12-2014, 10:06
Effectively if this does happen. Realisicaly Gw will probably just drop the worse profitibale/selling models. :shifty:

innerwolf
30-12-2014, 10:24
EG are stubborn because WE like to fight in forests and they cant be steadfast if they do.

With Forest Strider you count woods as open terrain. I think they would have Steadfast anyway.

scruffyryan
30-12-2014, 10:49
Forest strider just means you don't take dangerous terrain tests, the no steadfast in forests is a seperate thing

Seelenhaendler
30-12-2014, 11:23
Who would make the cut?

In my book there are three levels we have to differentiate:
1. Fluff
2. Rules
3. Model range / product line

1. If we accept that the changes to the Warhammer world introduced by the end times are here to stay then it is quite clear that GW’s intention with the elves is to consolidate them into a single faction.

2. Just like with the background of the three elven faction, GW tried very hard to distinguish the very similar army lists by giving each force a unique identity and play style. If we start from the premise that there will be only a single (combined) army list for the elves then IMO it is pretty likely that we will see a trimmed down army list with most of the redundant unit entries not making the cut. Of course players will be able to transfer their current army and use (most of) their units in the new list (probably as “count as”), at least for the first iteration of the new army book. How exactly the unit entries will look like and how many there will be, will also mainly depend on how different 9th ed will be, e.g. if they are going to heavily streamline the game, we could even see the removal of equipment options and (long) bows and (repeater) crossbows could use the same rules for example which could mean a single entry for all archers/crossbowmen and all fast cavalry units (except the stag riders of course).

3. How exactly the new army list will look like is highly dependent on what GW is going to do with the product line. From a business point of view it seems that GW intends to reduce the number of factions to multiply the target audience of each kit they release. Also by consolidating the product line and only putting their ‘best sellers’ on the shelves they increase their profitability. I don’t think they will make the cut over night but I expect them to move ‘old’ stuff to direct only under a ‘classic’ category which will eventually go away (without notice of course ;) ). What the new product line will look like mainly depends on what stuff survives the end times and how long after it (if at all) 9th ed will take place.
There are again three possibilities:
a) There will be new product line with a complete new style. The current product line can be used for units with no new models yet.
b) New products will be in the style of a single sub-faction (i.e. high, dark or wood elves) and the current model range of this sub-faction will be the foundation the new product line will be built around.
c) GW will continue to release products for all three sub-factions and the new army list will incorporate all of them equally. This way players would be able to field combined armies or themed armies by only fielding a specific selection of troops, comparable to the current Orcs&Goblins army list where you have for example savage orcs and night goblins in your basic army list.

While option c) would be the best case scenario for the players it is arguably the worst from a business point of view. Therefore I would expect them to run with a) or b) and cut everything that is redundant sooner rather than later.

innerwolf
30-12-2014, 12:27
Sorry for the rules off-topic, but

Forest strider just means you don't take dangerous terrain tests, the no steadfast in forests is a seperate thing

I always used the rule wrong. So, as it is worded, Forest Strider is useless for infantry, which doesn't take dangerous terrain tests for crossing forests anyway? That's great :eyebrows:

Mech87
30-12-2014, 12:32
I think it more likely that GW would take this opportunity to split elves into two factions insted of having the three or keeping it as one. Two seems alot more Manageble without having to throw anything out.

One with the DE/Some of HE below Malekith ass a conquering force in the outside world trying to find a satisfying realm to rule, the other part the rest of HE+WE ruled by Allarielle in Athel Loren.

CariadocThorne
30-12-2014, 13:44
Sorry for the rules off-topic, but


I always used the rule wrong. So, as it is worded, Forest Strider is useless for infantry, which doesn't take dangerous terrain tests for crossing forests anyway? That's great :eyebrows:

They do in venom thickets, which coincidentally is the usual preference of wood elf players choosing their free wood.

Lord Dan
30-12-2014, 15:36
Eternal guard are not redundant with spearmen.
I don't think they're redundant with Spearmen, I think they're redundant with Pheonix Guard and Black Guard. They fill the same role, just less well. Merge them together, give them a halberd, and call it a day.


They do in venom thickets, which coincidentally is the usual preference of wood elf players choosing their free wood.
This.

Philhelm
30-12-2014, 16:27
I think it more likely that GW would take this opportunity to split elves into two factions insted of having the three or keeping it as one. Two seems alot more Manageble without having to throw anything out.

One with the DE/Some of HE below Malekith ass a conquering force in the outside world trying to find a satisfying realm to rule, the other part the rest of HE+WE ruled by Allarielle in Athel Loren.

This is what I am thinking as well. One faction of elves under the "Avatar" of Shadow, and the other faction of elves under the "Avatar" of Life. Three elven factions is indeed a bit much, but I can't see them getting rid of Dark/Evil Elves entirely (they have one of the best model lines as well), and the High Elves seem more popular than Wood Elves. It seems pretty clear that the Wood Elves essentially get absorbed, but Wood Elves are so iconic to fantasy settings that I can't see them being removed entirely. I would imagine that the High Elves and Wood Elves could merge so that you have some glistening armored warriors and ranger-types fighting together, with some Wood Elf elements going to, or being shared with, the Dark Elves

I envision the following Dark Elf units remaining:

-Dreadspears/Darkshards/Bleakswords
-Cold One Knights
-Dark Riders/Emos
-Hydra/Kharibdys
-Dreadlord on Dragon
-Executioners/Black Guard
-Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
-Corsairs

Shades, Harpies, and other units that don't have models could easily be dropped. Maybe they'll be able to use evil dryads and Wood Elf scouts instead.

Doommasters
30-12-2014, 18:58
Eternal guard are not redundant with spearmen. Eternal guard have a stat boost plus are stubborn.

Glade riders have ambush and enchanted arrows, reaver knights dont. Reavers also have light armor which the glade riders are lacking.

High elf archers and wood elf archers are very similar barring their equipment options (HE armor, WE enchanted arrows)

@ those who think maiden guard and sisters of avelorn would be taken out, my question is why? There is still an everqueen, no more avelorn though.

I would like to enchanted arrows kept for whatever core archers the elves get, sisters of averlorn moved to special and waywatchers remaining as the rare archer choice. This way for those that are interested can play the acher gunline.

The biggest issue for combined elves is going to be infantry overlap. Whatever is decided units need to be differentiated enough to serve a clear purpose.

There is also no reason why some of the infantry could not be tweaked and moved into rare to serve a slightly different purpose. This would be a smart play as special is fairly well overloaded.

Eternal guard have a new kit but I would imagine they will end up as regular spear elves and players can just use the models they have.

kylek2235
30-12-2014, 19:19
Sorry Dan, most of your analysis is based on fluff reasoning. Most of those plastic kits are too valuable to eliminate. The best place to start is in Archibald's direct order only thread

High Elves:
o Paint Set
- Spearmen
- Archers
- Silver Helms
- Bolt Thrower

Wood Elves:
- Dryads
- Glade Riders

Likely won't make it into the next edition. Ruling out things like Elyrion Reavers, Swordmasters and Lothern Seaguard (no models outside of Isle of Blood) also make sense.

Finally, if its finecast, it's gone.

Turgol
30-12-2014, 21:06
I'am sorry, but the OP seems to be very implausible. Most assumptions are simply rushed. The facts that elves do not have a port, for example, assumes a static setting. If GW wanted to keep sea related models, it would not be very hard to make elves expand into Bretonia (the main territory of elven colonies before the War of the Beard) or even Tilea and Estalia. Throwing away some of the best models the elves have (Corsairs, Charibdys, Skycutter) does not seem reasonable.

I see the merging of the elves as an unprecedented opportunity to make the most design versatile GW has ever produced, without having too large of a list. Look for example at Core. Right now you have lots of different units: Glade Guard, Eternal Guard, Dreadspears, Bleakswords, Darkshards, Archers, Spearmen, Lothern Sea Guard, three forms of light cavalry, witches and Silver Helms. You could effectively combine all archers in a loose sense and all normal infantry. Say: 7 points per model in their basic configuration. Regarding the way you gear them, you would have lots of available kits to make your basic infantry or shooters: buy the Darkshards if you equip them with CB, Glade Guard for no armour and longbows, etc. Same for light cavalry: the difference between the three would not be related to a kind of unit, but rather to their aesthetics regarding their setting and/or gear. You could still have some "special" core for elves of each origin: Silver Helms for formers HE nobles; Witches for former DE; and Eternal Guard for former WE. In this way, each player could still see their original race at play, but would have a lot more options.

The special section would have a lot more options, that is true, but nothing too bad. You could still argue, as well, that units related to a certain god (Khainites) do not make sense anymore, but then again this assumes no change on fluff. Look at 40k: Eldar gods have always been dead on 40k, yet they have different forms of khainite units (most of the aspects).

I really do not see a boring approach like the OP suggests, but rather a very promising starting situation. And, of course, you have to take into account GW loves to sell supplements right now.

scruffyryan
30-12-2014, 23:46
The thing about omg khainites is this.

Arkhan the black was in the Tomb Kings book. That dude was an antagonist to the tomb kings and yet you can still build his army.

sturguard
31-12-2014, 03:02
An uninformed question for everyone- as a dark elf player, do I need to get the Khaine book or is this just an expansion? Do people anticipate the elves staying isolated in 9th edition or will they all be combined for good? Thanks.

Drasanil
31-12-2014, 04:49
An uninformed question for everyone- as a dark elf player, do I need to get the Khaine book or is this just an expansion? Do people anticipate the elves staying isolated in 9th edition or will they all be combined for good? Thanks.

You don't need it as a dark elf player. If GW releases a combined 'elf' book in 9th it will probably have all the relevant fluff in it any ways.

Wesser
31-12-2014, 10:19
This is why I'm starting to resent End Times

I want to play Warhammer: Wood Elves... not Warhammer: Elves

I'm all for advancing the fluff, but if too much individuality is lost then it's just gonna get boring

CariadocThorne
31-12-2014, 10:53
This is why I'm starting to resent End Times

I want to play Warhammer: Wood Elves... not Warhammer: Elves

I'm all for advancing the fluff, but if too much individuality is lost then it's just gonna get boring

+1

I like my elves attuned to nature and the seasons.

I like my elves led by a living manifestation of the horned god of the hunt.

I like my elves relatively unconcerned by moral issues such as "If I decide to shoot this probably-innocent traveler through the face, when it would be just as easy to lead them back out of the forest, does that make me a bad person?"

I like my elves ruthless, even somewhat brutal, but never needlessly cruel.

I like my elves filled with joy and life, leaping and whirling around a fire at night, to the beat of drums, not sitting in an elegant hall enjoying refined conversation over a glass of something light and bubbly, while a nameless hireling plays a harp softly in the background. (or sitting in an elegant hall enjoying refined conversation over a glass of something thick and red, while a nameless hireling screams continuously in the background)

I like wood elves, not high elves or dark elves, and I really don't see any way they can really unite the three races without losing the things which people like about them, fluffwise.

Spiney Norman
01-01-2015, 01:21
I totally agree, treating the three elf armies as if they are one faction is the most idiotic thing GW have done with the background since I got into wfb. All the elf factions had a completely different feel to them, high elves, wise, noble & arrogant, dark elves; cold, cruel & merciless, wood elves; passionate, stealthy and wild. Trying to pretend you can drop all three in a blender and come out with one sort of consistent 'warhammer elf' is a sad way to bring decades of interesting background to an end.

Philhelm
01-01-2015, 15:57
I totally agree, treating the three elf armies as if they are one faction is the most idiotic thing GW have done with the background since I got into wfb. All the elf factions had a completely different feel to them, high elves, wise, noble & arrogant, dark elves; cold, cruel & merciless, wood elves; passionate, stealthy and wild. Trying to pretend you can drop all three in a blender and come out with one sort of consistent 'warhammer elf' is a sad way to bring decades of interesting background to an end.

Sounds like elven multiculturalism.

Lord Dan
13-01-2015, 14:46
So, this is awkward, but...to those who said:


I think you are utterly clueless if you think GW are just throwing away the moulds for all of the kits you just axed in that post. You do not understand business at all whatsoever.

It looks like I may not have cut enough from my original post. :shifty:

Nicov55
13-01-2015, 16:13
Regarding Elves, all depends on wether GW are coherent with the current End Times stories or not.
And we also don't even know who is going to survive. Might be even more surprises yet.
I find hard to believe Morathi is gone; according to me, she is/was? the most evil character in all the warhammer fluff. Most other "evil" characters did what they did because they did not really have a choice or that was just their nature (Daemons).
Morathi's actions are constantly the result of her vanity and selfishness; she always chooses the evil path. She is too perfectly evil to just disappear like that :)

That being said, it is clear to me that all khainite units are obsolete. The widowmaker lost its power, showing Khaine himself has been defeated (dead?) so khainites lost all reasons to be.
Cold Ones should be gone also, since Nagagoth has been destroyed, they are no longer available or maybe as rare units (those surviving).
Black and Phoenix guards merge and are now the Shadowfire guard.
I did read somewhere that crossbows would be gone and only bows from now on.
So we would have spearmen and archers as core.
heavy cavalry on horses.
Rare units and specials will depend of what's left after End Times. Maybe a couple dragons, Pegasus...
Hard to tell for now.

Nicov55
13-01-2015, 16:16
I totally agree, treating the three elf armies as if they are one faction is the most idiotic thing GW have done with the background since I got into wfb. All the elf factions had a completely different feel to them, high elves, wise, noble & arrogant, dark elves; cold, cruel & merciless, wood elves; passionate, stealthy and wild. Trying to pretend you can drop all three in a blender and come out with one sort of consistent 'warhammer elf' is a sad way to bring decades of interesting background to an end.

The way most Elves followed Malekith is very hard to believe to start with. It is stated that the souls of Elves have always been torned between Asuryan and Khaine. So i guess we will have some kind of Dark high elves or light dark elves full of bitterness.

malisteen
13-01-2015, 16:27
If rumors are to be believed, then 100% of everything in all three elven armies is being scrapped, in favor of a new elven army with a new aesthetic style that is neither high nor dark nor wood. According to said rumors, there will be spears and archers (so at least some current core models can proxy forward), but no tree stuff and no dark elf monsters, at least to start (though they may return temporarily in limited release future waves, if that part of the rumors are to be believed). Each newstlyle faction is supposedly about half the size of existing factions, at least to start, so I'm expecting something like:

Characters -
Elf Prince/Lord (foot, horse, or dragon)
Elf mage/Archmage (foot, horse, or dragon)
1 to 2 new special characters (none of the current lineup)

Spears
Archers
Light cavalry
Chariots

Elite ranged infantry (scouts? dual kit w/ the archers)
Elite melee infantry (dual kit w/ the sspears)
Elite cavalry (something warlock/sistersesque I'd guess) (dual kit w/ the light cav)

Bolt Throwers
Some new kind of monster or monstrous unit (dragon princes, but actually on small dragons?)


I'm not predicting that as the specific units necessarily, that's just the sort of model range I would expect out of the faction for the initial release, if rumors prove accurate.

Nicov55
13-01-2015, 16:37
If rumors are to be believed, then 100% of everything in all three elven armies is being scrapped, in favor of a new elven army with a new aesthetic style that is neither high nor dark nor wood. According to said rumors, there will be spears and archers (so at least some current core models can proxy forward), but no tree stuff and no dark elf monsters, at least to start (though they may return temporarily in limited release future waves, if that part of the rumors are to be believed). Each newstlyle faction is supposedly about half the size of existing factions, at least to start, so I'm expecting something like:

Characters -
Elf Prince/Lord (foot, horse, or dragon)
Elf mage/Archmage (foot, horse, or dragon)
1 to 2 new special characters (none of the current lineup)

Spears
Archers
Light cavalry
Chariots

Elite ranged infantry (scouts? dual kit w/ the archers)
Elite melee infantry (dual kit w/ the sspears)
Elite cavalry (something warlock/sistersesque I'd guess) (dual kit w/ the light cav)

Bolt Throwers
Some new kind of monster or monstrous unit (dragon princes, but actually on small dragons?)


I'm not predicting that as the specific units necessarily, that's just the sort of model range I would expect out of the faction for the initial release, if rumors prove accurate.

I did also read that exact same rumours. The new setting is said to be a few centuries forward in time so all three factions merged, lost their singularities and evolved into something else. Regarding the new aesthetic, i have no clue what that might be but just hope they are not giving us someting looking 40K or even worse WoW.

Emperor Karl Franz
13-01-2015, 16:46
Malisteen beat me to the punch, because that's exactly what I was going to say. The rumors also say that GW will be using cheaper molds to produce miniatures for a limited time, so maybe that's a practice which they've already put in place with their new Dark Elf and Wood Elf models, knowing full well that they'd be discontinuing those models in 9th?

So for 9th edition, I think we can expect to see 15-20 units (characters and regiments) represented by entirely new units, with no old models whatsoever. Some armies may keep old models (Chaos may keep daemons as they are, and Skaven may have some carry over), but the High Elf, Dark Elf, and Wood Elf lines will more than likely be entirely expunged.

malisteen
13-01-2015, 16:49
The rumors also say that GW will be using cheaper molds to produce miniatures for a limited time, so maybe that's a practice which they've already put in place with their new Dark Elf and Wood Elf models, knowing full well that they'd be discontinuing those models in 9th?

This is what I expect. Honestly, I'd be surprised if even the new end times models like the Mortarchs or Thanquol make it into 9e, if the rumors we've seen so far are true.

Turin321
13-01-2015, 17:08
Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

Registered just to get my Thought across. Which is very personal, but I guess will be there in one form or another for a lot of players.
Play since 1989, 3rd Edition, own about 36.000 Points of several Armies plus 6000 WH40K, and all is fine with me. Things evolve.

But just to make it clear - if Wardancers are cut, I am sooo uninterested in anything new...
Everybody has his/her favourite and for me Wardancers were the reason to join in back then. I can live without new Minis from GW, but if they get cut and left out of the new rules - Bye, Bye, GW ... Hello, Money on my Bank Account.

Back on topic - Yes, I can live with the Khaine Book.
It has Wardancers in it ... ;o)
And I could use High Elves as Allies in 3rd Edition, too ... so not that overwhelming.
I even get to try to be a bit more Melnibonéan ... :o)

If a coming 9th edition would scratch Wardancers - I'm still out.

So, yes, GW can continue with a single "Elven" book - it just has to satisfy a lot of different interests and looks in one instead of three tomes -
I don't know if that will be the way ...
But if - yes, a lot of units can be merged to a kind of universal, basic elf unit/hero, you just need to keep all the specialists.
I can see a Dark Elf mourning the Loss of Cold Ones just as much, for example.

We will see, speculation about what exactly where is currently moot.

Emperor Karl Franz
13-01-2015, 20:42
My guess is they will, as the rumored time frame for limited edition models is 6-12 months, and even the oldest End Times models will still fall within the outside 12 month time frame with several months to spare (For instance, Nagash will only be 8 months old when 9th edition hits), while some of the more recent ones won't even hit the minimum time.

I think that's the case for two reasons. 1) Of the characters released, just about all of them are either immortal or have some means of reappearing later down the road. Nagash, the Mortarchs, and the Verminlords are immortal, while the Glottkin are being preserved by Nurgle. Thanquol is an exception to that, but the book hasn't been released yet, so maybe he'll become an Incarnate or find some other means of immortality? And 2) The units released seem to match up with the rumors of the limited edition models they'll be putting out for the edition. So the End Times units seem to fall into the mold of the sorts of units GW will be releasing for their new armies in 9th edition.

Just supposition, of course, but I'm leaning towards the possibility that the released End Times models, anyway, will find themselves in the upcoming 9th edition army books. GW will just repack them with round bases and send them out again once 9th edition hits, and then they'll be discontinued a few months into the edition.

Sir_Turalyon
13-01-2015, 21:41
More or less what malisteen said. Purely extrapolating from current background and what I read about new EoT, the new Lothern has no access to industries of Ultharan or Naggaroth, and won't be using either. The DE equipment was over-engineered to be produced by slaves and still usable by Elves - crossbows in particular seem to be Elven AK-47s. With genuine Elven artisans around, they won't be needed. The HE equipment was overly sophisticated, made in facilities and from materials no longer aviliable. I suspect new Elven gear will be combination of WE materials and HE know-how... so bows rather than crossbows, and armour that is neither silver nor intimidating. Also, with most of gods dead, many religious units will be absorbed by their secular equivalents. Same for "regional flavour" units.

On the units archetypes:
-Foot elves with spears / swords and shields. With flavour of both HE and DE.
-Foot elves with bows. Possibly with WE flavour.
-Elven fast cavalry.
-Elven knights. I suppose there is more horses than Cold Ones in Loren?
-Elite skirmishing (even more than the rest of army) bowmen. Probably of mixed Avelorn / Waywatcher flavour.

-Black(?) Guard unit: Malekith's new bodyguard? With Assuryan and Oak of Ages gone, I see no future for other two Guard units. I see existing Phoenix Guards joining guard of last Phoenix King, though.
-Wardancers (or whatever "fragile spedsters with two hand weapons" will be called. Without Khaine, I don't see Witch Elves legacy for this unit).
-Elite two handed swordsmen: secular successors of Swordmasters and/or Executioners. OR an elite woodsman two-handed axemen.

Lars Porsenna
13-01-2015, 22:59
I don't even think we would get any of that. I predict 3 boxed sets and a couple of clampacks to start off:

Clampacks (Aluminum Molds/temporary):

-Eternity Elf Lord/Hero
-Eternity Elf Archmage/Mage

Boxed sets (Steel Molds/permanent):

-Eternity Elf Infantry (makes spears/HW & shields, or bow)
-Eternity Elf Cavalry (w/2 options, heavy & light)
-Eternity Elf War Machine or Monster(?)

There might be another unit or monster done with aluminum molds as another limited upon release, but keep in mind IF the rumors are true, GW is going to be releasing a number of boxed sets at once or over a short period of time to support the 6 new factions (so perhaps 12 clampacks and 18 boxed sets in a year?), so I really don't see much beyond the immediate core.

Damon.

Confessor_Atol
14-01-2015, 00:39
I don't even think we would get any of that. I predict 3 boxed sets and a couple of clampacks to start off:

Clampacks (Aluminum Molds/temporary):

-Eternity Elf Lord/Hero
-Eternity Elf Archmage/Mage

Boxed sets (Steel Molds/permanent):

-Eternity Elf Infantry (makes spears/HW & shields, or bow)
-Eternity Elf Cavalry (w/2 options, heavy & light)
-Eternity Elf War Machine or Monster(?)

There might be another unit or monster done with aluminum molds as another limited upon release, but keep in mind IF the rumors are true, GW is going to be releasing a number of boxed sets at once or over a short period of time to support the 6 new factions (so perhaps 12 clampacks and 18 boxed sets in a year?), so I really don't see much beyond the immediate core.

Damon.

This is where my understanding and analysis of all the recent rumors are pointing. Having been a long time WHFB player and witnessing how GWs managed problems before, I am not optimistic. Old models can be successfully proxied, but unit types will be limited (to start with). The Proxying will leave a player with a disjointed looking army. New models in an entirely new style will be released that lend a cohesive look to the force. I bet armies will max out around 60 models. This leads me to suggest two new names for the upcoming debacle........

WARHAMMER: Business Times

or maybe

WARHAMMER: Lame Times

Doommasters
14-01-2015, 00:51
I am a long time WE player and IMO they should rebuild them from scratch if they want to be successful in a new game system. Re brand them Eldar (same as 40k) build the army in the image they want and be done with it. Then if the game is successful they can still split the Eldar apart to match the two 40k factions. As much as I wish WHFB was just staying the same it is not, and if I was GW I would want to start fresh rather than carry over too much baggage. I highly dount this will be very popular with the community but I am coming to the realisation it is the most likely outcome.

Tarrell
14-01-2015, 03:02
For me I think the GW will do to elves, as the have with chaos.
So fluff and army tactis and themes can still be used, this will also be more profitable as they will have more options.

Combined units: SwordMasters & Executioners combined. Possible Blade Masters. (Could also incorporate Wardancers) bits/ icons to represent factions/ houses
Phoenix Guard, Black Guard, Eternal Guard...combined but have bits/ icons to represent factions/ houses
Glade riders, Ellyrian Reavers, Dark Riders.... combined but have bits/ icons to represent factions/ houses
Dragon Princes, Wild Wood Riders, Cold ones.... I love all these, but its possible the may just combine them.
Shadow Warriors, Waywatchers, Shades....Combined but have icons/bits to theme.(possible change from long range bows to close range repeater cross bows)

Wildwood rangers, White lions, Witch elves. black ark corsairs, All great models but fluff wise hard to see the represented (though I hope they are).
Bolt throwers, Combined ( I like the Darkelf one better.)
Chariots using the DE frame. bits/ icons to represent factions/ houses


Spearmen, lothern sea guard, bleakswords, dark shards, gladeguard, archers....so combined into generic core with bits/ icons to represent factions/ houses

Archers odds are will just see Bows, (sorry DE and WE but WE overpowered long range, and DE 2 shots under half).
Also whoever said HE and WE cant use crossbows....they can, they just preferred to use bows, as the believed simpletons used unreliable weaponry.

I see GW just making everything almost generic like for Kits, but throwing in a sprue that has icons, spikes, banners etc etc so you can theme that unit, and represent a elf faction.

Lord Dan
14-01-2015, 03:22
WARHAMMER: Business Times

And they already have a theme song and everything!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGOohBytKTU

I have to agree at this point that a total overhaul of the Elf army is going to be necessary, right down to new sculpts for the remaining "core" models. After all, they really need to bring the aesthetic closer together if they're only going to include a handful of units to start.

Nicov55
14-01-2015, 09:35
They could keep the currrent Dark Elf Dreadspears and add more shield options; these models are nice and pretty generic. Just change the colours and shields and you have any lambda elf trooper.

CariadocThorne
14-01-2015, 20:13
WARHAMMER: Business Times

I suggest "Warhammer: Age of Profits" (sic).

Smooth Boy
15-01-2015, 05:05
I'd actually like to see them keep the Dark Elves line as the main theme of the army. Most successful fantasy worlds are Tolkienesque but with some of the tropes slightly changed. Dragon age for example had the elves as slaves to the other races instead of the high and mighty representation they usually get.

In business terms I'd say the only models that won't see 9th will be ones that are obscure and don't have duplicates. So since the HElves and DElves both have a marine style unit and captain models I'd be willing to bet it gets some representation in the new book. I actually think the new books will include most models (80%+) and that they'll just reform slowly. Molds will be used until they're due for repair or the models get replaced such as a new human cavalry unit which would retire the Bret and Empire ones simultaneously.

Shifte
15-01-2015, 10:17
You can tell that a lot of people have only really paid attention to the High Elf and Dark Elf armies, lol.

Eternal Guard have Weaponskill 5, leadership 9, stubborn, armour piercing attacks and the ability to go through forests unhindered. I think that if you were going to combine the lists together, Eternal Guard should have their own place. They're elite, stubborn spearmen, rather than just spearmen chaff. I think there is more need to consolidate the heavy armour wearing, two handed weapon using Executioners, Swordmasters, White Lions, Wildwood Rangers, Phoenix Guard and Black Guard.

Their lore is also so much more than "spearmen chaff", too. In fact, I think their whole judicial position in Athel Loren will become a lot more important with the new immigrants. :P

Here's how I would combine the lists into one book. It's quite similar to an earlier post. Name the units whatever fits best, I just went for quick and generic:

Characters: (9)

Elven Lord, Elven Hero, Mage Lord, Mage Hero, Loremaster, Treeman Ancient.

Branchwraith, Assassin (Waywatcher too), Dragon Mage.

Core: (8)

Glade Guard, Spearmen, Raiders (bleakswords + crossbow option + corsair option), Elven Knights, Elven Fast Cavalry, Eternal Guard, Elven Rangers (WWR + White Lions), Witch Elves.

Special: (11)

Elven Chariot (all options), Elven Greatswords (Swordmasters + Executioners), Elven Scouts, Cold One Knights, Dragon Princes, Hydra/Kharybdis, Wardancers, Sorcerous Fast Cavalry, Tree Kin, Warhawk Riders, Wild Riders.


Rare: (7)

Shadowfire Guard, Sisters of Averlorn, Treeman, Phoenixes, Great Eagle, Bloodwrack Shrine/Medusa, Bolt Throwers.


Purposefully Dropped: Harpies & Sea Guard.


Total unit entries; 35. 8 core, 11 special, 7 rare.

Tarrell
16-01-2015, 00:30
I think they would merge the Cold One nights and Dragon Princes. Dragon princes on cold ones, sounds good to me.
Phoenix Guard and Black Guard. are a given, now Shadow Guard.
Why have mages and lore masters?
Mage hero/ Dragon mage, lore masters. Still the same thing
While Assassins were awesome, I dont know how they could represent all 3 factions.
How many points are Eternal Guard?

I would love to see witch elves incorporated, there my second DE fav unit, cold one knights first.


I love the Idea of the white lions, right down to being the true guard of the phoenix king, though they were kind stamped out and had the leader executed. Also fluff wise, the reason the Phoenix Guard did not protect the Phoenix kings, because they all weren't true Phoenix kings.
Same thoughts on corsairs, there renown for raiding in war ships, Update threes no more warships as there on lothern. Maybe we could see a new unit, Beast Hunters (as they both have a thing about wearing animal skins)?
Elves and bows go hand in hand, I cant see crossbows re appearing, Its more of a medieval/ Dwarf weapon anyway, and we all know Dwarves cant be trusted.

Emperor Karl Franz
16-01-2015, 03:46
In fact, I think their whole judicial position in Athel Loren will become a lot more important with the new immigrants. :P

I wouldn't count on it since Malekith, King of the Immigrant Elves, runs things now. :b

Shifte
16-01-2015, 13:49
Left out Witch Elves by accident.

I don't know - Malekith seems to be savvy enough to try and keep the peace. Eternal Guard currently have a system in which they will duel a random member of the other Lord's Eternal Guard to settle a dispute and avoid war. It's quite cool and in story means Lords can't afford to let their Eternal Guard standards drop. With High Elves and Dark Elves now living in the Glade Lord's realms, it might be more needed than ever to settle disputes!

Lord Dan
17-01-2015, 13:46
Left out Witch Elves by accident.

I don't know - Malekith seems to be savvy enough to try and keep the peace. Eternal Guard currently have a system in which they will duel a random member of the other Lord's Eternal Guard to settle a dispute and avoid war. It's quite cool and in story means Lords can't afford to let their Eternal Guard standards drop. With High Elves and Dark Elves now living in the Glade Lord's realms, it might be more needed than ever to settle disputes!
I'm not sure anyone will be considering themselves "High", "Dark", or "Wood" Elves anymore. I think everyone is just an Elf, and that Elves live in the forests of Athel Loren. After all, Malekith had a dream: that one day, Elf children would live in a world in which they were not judged by the color of their armor, but by the content of their character. The End Times have made that dream real.

Nicov55
17-01-2015, 16:15
I'm not sure anyone will be considering themselves "High", "Dark", or "Wood" Elves anymore. I think everyone is just an Elf, and that Elves live in the forests of Athel Loren. After all, Malekith had a dream: that one day, Elf children would live in a world in which they were not judged by the color of their armor, but by the content of their character. The End Times have made that dream real.

Well...Malekith is not exactly Martin Luther King if i might say so...
His motives have for long been based on his own frustration over his merits not being recognized and that Ulthuan's mediocre political intrigues resulted in someone other than himself being chosen to succeed his father.
Morathi, the true Evil in the Warhammer World did the rest.
Malekith was responsible for the death and enslavement of millions and even if he had in mind "a greater good", that still does not excuse his previous actions. He now is spritualy reborn after passing the flames a second time but he nevertheless remains cold, vain and whithout scrupules whatsoever.

Otherwise i like the character, he is bad-ass tormented and complex :)

CariadocThorne
17-01-2015, 19:48
As well as frustration, it is entirely possible that Malekith has been at least partially driven by a sense that the usurpers of his rightful throne were the "evil" ones, and that he had a duty to stop them, not only to reclaim his rightful place, but to protect his people.

Nicov55
17-01-2015, 20:16
As well as frustration, it is entirely possible that Malekith has been at least partially driven by a sense that the usurpers of his rightful throne were the "evil" ones, and that he had a duty to stop them, not only to reclaim his rightful place, but to protect his people.

I can agree with that. He stated quite a few times in the various books that Ulthuan was getting weak under the rule of the false Phoenix Kings, even if he gave credit to some of them for their qualities (the first Caledor, Finubar "one of the smartest"...).
Malekith despised Ulthuan's politics and scheming, Princes working not for the common good but themselves only.
In fact he makes me think of Dr. Doom in the Marvel fluff, despicable actions, no scrupules, but the certainty that whithout him, the world will be unprepared and as a result ultimately destroyed.

As i said, a complex character which means a great one.

herohammer
18-01-2015, 08:35
How many points are Eternal Guard?
Witch elf cost. They are more comparable to witch elves or uhhhhh sea guard (makes you realize how dodgy high elf core are that LSG are there "elite" core infantry choice)

Dark Elf
18-01-2015, 21:38
Well here's my thoughts and since I'm a lazy SoB I'll shamelessly re-write your own post according to my thoughts Dan:


Lords
Elven Lord
Elven Archmage
Elven Loremaster
Treeman Ancient

So I'll be honest, what would be the difference between Loremasters and Archmages? If it's about the dragon, merge them. Dragon in that case will be an upgrade. Also I'm rather sceptical about Treeman Ancient yet I left him there.


Heroes
Elven Noble
Elven Mage
Branchwraith
Assassins

Again almost identical to yours, yet where you squatted assassin I didn't, and here comes why. If I understood you correctly, you presume that Elves will all continue living in the woods. However I disagree. I believe that Elven bubble will at least have one city. Remember, HE and DE used to live in the cities, there is no reason for them not to try and build one in the centuries after the ET. WE will probably continue to live in the forests that surround the city. This city is also a place where Elven nobility will gather/be made. New nobility will form and they will seek to gain more power, while the old nobility will seek to retain their power. Out of that will be born true machiavelian politcal power struggles - lions, wolves and foxes will clash. Again, don't forget that DE are now a part of that society and those mother ****ers are rather cruel and cold blooded and wouldn't hesitate to use any tools at their disposal - hence assassins live as they are quite a useful tool in gaining leverage and power over your adversaries. Also I don't perceive HE as absolutely good guys, but rather a neutral realists who aren't afraid to get dirty.
Trust a student of political science about politics.


Core
Elven Warriors (Spear/Shield or Sword/Shield or two hand weapons)
Elven Bowmen
Elven light cavalry
Dryads

Nothing to add here, except that maybe we will be seeing them use rather various looking armors and weapons that are leftovers from ages past.
But one thing is certain, the repeater crossbows go to history books. Unfortunately they were mentioned in rumours as being scrapped along with cold ones and a lot of DE monsters.


Special
Tree Kin
Eternity Guard (Stubborn, HA, Halberds, etc.)
Great weapon unit (Veteran Elven Warriors?)
Elven Rangers (a mix of previously skirmish units, that will be rather versatile and usable for both shooting and close combat)
Elven Knights (S4)
Bolt Thrower (They'll remain but I'm not sure will they be a part of special or rare units)
Hydras (same as for BT)
An heir to witch elves

Drasanil made a good point about Hydras so I'm putting them in the list despite the rumours about DE monsters kicking the bucket.
As for the witch elves - while I agree that they cannot continue to exist in the current form (I mean their object of worship died), GW will also not lose a unit full of angry females. How will they be called is anyone's guess. What type of unit will they be too. Their nature? Who knows. All I know is we will see a 100% females unit. And none of the previous units offer such a possibility - unless the elven kings go Gaddafi style with female bodyguards. But while we are speculating - Priestesses of the Eternity King's cult.


Rare
Great Eagles
Treemen
Hydra (again either rare or special)

I haven't really got a clue about other units. Maybe we will see that sister of thorn/doomfire warlocks unit in the future, but I kind of doubt it. Remaining chariots as rare?
On that note I think we're going to get at least one infantry unit in the standard rare section but what they are going to be idk. Will they carry on the legacy of sister of battle or sisters of avelorn/waywatchers? Time will tell and again I don't even have an idea.
But there are two things that are rumored we mustn't forget:
1. The core book will have a rather low number of units
2. New units with their rules will be released in time.
So it's now anyone's guess what happens from here on.

Darkspear
19-01-2015, 06:30
While I believe that all the existing kits will be replaced by 2016, I believe all the new plastics released in 8th will remain for this year.

This meant that the "survivors" are for DE,
Spear-sword-crossbow elves kit (sorry I never get the new names)
Executioners-Blackguard
Witch Elves
The 2 chariots kit
Darkriders/warlocks
Cauldron kit
Hydra-multiheaded sea monster kit

High Elves
Sisters-Shadow warriors
The phoenixes
The sky-cutter

Wood Elves
Eternal guard/Wildwood rangers kit
Deer Cavalry kit
Treemen kit.

If we take these box sets together, they make quite an all rounded army. Thus I think this will be Warhammer Elves until they got replaced.

VMBTS
19-01-2015, 18:46
Cutting out every unit that is specifically attached to something that no longer exists seems like a reasonable thing to do.

So cult of Khaine and Asuryan-related stuff probably out. Wild Riders too. I can see any beast that could only be found in Naggaroth or Ulthuan (Cold Ones, White Lions, blablabla,...) not making it either, just like Loremasters and maybe Swordmasters since the knowledge of Hoet got destroyed.

They will probably merge lots of stuff since all three armies have a lot of similar unit concepts.

Eddie Chaos
19-01-2015, 20:13
I feel we are likely to lose everything that isn't plastic, possibly the older kits like the high elf core too

earth127
19-01-2015, 20:16
I guess so too, mostly because every plastic high elf core kit has more expensive, less model count having alternatives in the WE or DE range.

CariadocThorne
19-01-2015, 22:00
Cutting out every unit that is specifically attached to something that no longer exists seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Why Wildriders?

Orion may be dead, but:
a) it doesn't mean he'll stay dead (he is a classic dying-and-being-reborn kind of guy after all),

And

b) Unless I missed something really big, Kurnous is still around, and they are "wildriders of Kurnous", not Orion, and they specifically gain their power from Kurnous.

Ok, they can't continue to be Orion's personal guard if he stays dead, but that doesn't mean they have to go.

Emperor Karl Franz
20-01-2015, 00:06
I think Orion's "dead-dead" at this point. It's all about Malekith, now.

Rollcage8
20-01-2015, 04:39
SPOILERS. Araloth escapes to create a new era of elves, he's a wood elf. Malekith and the queen (forgot name) may or may not have any impact on this new future at all, but they are dark elves and high elves respectively. Araloth does represent a god, that god was involved in concepts such as Phoenix guard.

So i'd guess at glade guard archers and high elf/dark elf style armoured spearmen.

Pheonix guard/black guard (elite armoured elf infantry).

War dancers/shades or skirmishing elves based on shadow magic.

I have the impression the trees will not make a showing, but perhaps eagles and other monster like creatures from other elf armies will be more likely. Phoenix/skycutter and hydras.

Cavarly will be based on wood elf concepts, so regular horse cavalry and stags for heavy cavalry. Maybe Armoured or not. Spear and bow.

Magic will be shadow and life, shadow to play tricks on enemies, life to restore fallen allies.

Thats a breakdown of how I see the future elf army looking on the field.

Dumle
20-01-2015, 07:31
What about the Island of Blood Elves: Swordmasters, Sea Guard, Ellyrian Reavers. They might be gone soon.

Drasanil
20-01-2015, 20:51
Why Wildriders?

Orion may be dead, but:
a) it doesn't mean he'll stay dead (he is a classic dying-and-being-reborn kind of guy after all),

It's the end of the cycle and he was killed by the Widowmaker; he's dead dead. Malekith is the King of Loren now.


b) Unless I missed something really big, Kurnous is still around, and they are "wildriders of Kurnous", not Orion, and they specifically gain their power from Kurnous.

Ok, they can't continue to be Orion's personal guard if he stays dead, but that doesn't mean they have to go.

Orion was Kurnous. So no, Kurnous is still not around.

Shifte
21-01-2015, 13:43
It's the end of the cycle and he was killed by the Widowmaker; he's dead dead. Malekith is the King of Loren now.

I agree with you. Orion IS dead.

However, he is not the "King of Loren" in a technical sense. Sovereignty wise, Alarielle is the Queen Regent of Athel Loren. Orion was "the King in the Woods" and effectively Ariel's consort. He served his Queen, who was the Head of State for the Asrai. This is explicitly stated in some novels and the most recent army book.

For all intents and purposes Malekith is the King of the Elves, but I suspect that Alarielle holds just as much authority as him in a practical sense. -She- is the inheritor of Athel Loren's domain, of the Wood Elves' loyalty and has the love and trust of most High Elves. It is only with her blessing that he currently rules. Their child, if they have one, will inherit everything. That is why he bowed to her, that is why she felt that she had to marry him and that is how we will ultimately get one Elven society.

I want to know what happens with the Glade Lords, though. They have ruled their regions for generations and are accustomed to having a council of 15 members which made decisions about the Wood Elves' future. Ariel was able to overrule them, but did this only very rarely. Compromise seems to be a Wood Elven principle. There has been no indication that they will give up their titles to Dreadlords and Princes from far away lands. With that in mind, there's a good chance that (casualties pending) a lot of the new Princes of the Elven Realm will be Asrai unless there is some expansionism.

Hopefully they go into this much depth. Alas, they might just skip 500 years ahead and stick us all in a tree-filled-bubble. :)


Orion was Kurnous. So no, Kurnous is still not around.

Yeah. I think Wild Riders will remain, though. They'd just become worshippers of a dead god.

Drasanil
21-01-2015, 20:36
I want to know what happens with the Glade Lords, though. They have ruled their regions for generations and are accustomed to having a council of 15 members which made decisions about the Wood Elves' future. Ariel was able to overrule them, but did this only very rarely. Compromise seems to be a Wood Elven principle. There has been no indication that they will give up their titles to Dreadlords and Princes from far away lands. With that in mind, there's a good chance that (casualties pending) a lot of the new Princes of the Elven Realm will be Asrai unless there is some expansionism.

I could see a clique of dark and high elf lords, the ones from old noble families appointed by Aenarion, get together and try to knock off some Asrai lords for being peasants and seize their holdings. Especially since elevating commoners is a thing the Asrai do with out too much fuss.

That aside, the Glade Lords are probably going to find their influence diminished given both Alarielle and Malekith would have advisers and allies of their own they'd rather delegate influence and power to.

CariadocThorne
21-01-2015, 20:49
Orion was Kurnous. So no, Kurnous is still not around.

Er, no he isn't. He was a living champion of Kurnous, but he was not Kurnous himself, just an elf (well, a succession of them), channeling the power of him. The same as Ariel was a living "avatar" of Isha. Ariel died, Isha didn't, Orion died, Kurnous didn't.

Drasanil
21-01-2015, 20:50
Er, no he isn't. He was a living champion of Kurnous, but he was not Kurnous himself, just an elf (well, a succession of them), channeling the power of him. The same as Ariel was a living "avatar" of Isha. Ariel died, Isha didn't, Orion died, Kurnous didn't.

Read ET:Khaine.