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Minigiant
29-12-2014, 19:03
Now i am confusing myself with what is defined as unmodified leadership for using death magic

From what i understand the wizard cannot use inspiring presence but can use the highest leadership in the unit? (This maybe last edition rules)

Can they use a standard of discipline?

I really need someone to clear this confusion up for me

Mr_Rose
29-12-2014, 19:46
Modifiers are things that add and subtract Leadership, or whatever. Substitutions are not modifiers, for some reason, unless they come from outside the unit.

So, highest Leadership in the unit, no +/-1s.

Minigiant
29-12-2014, 20:31
And if the +1 affects the substituted leadership?
So an Ogre Tyrant and Slaughtermaster in an Irongut unit with banner of discipline

Is the leadership the slaughtermaster uses for death magic 9 or 10?

theunwantedbeing
29-12-2014, 20:52
Page 6 of the FAQ (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf)

Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the
unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher
Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

hardyworld
29-12-2014, 20:59
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
As of right now, that's all we know.

Nowhere in the definition does it mention that modifiers are not applicable to a unit's 'Unmodified Leadership' (such as from Standard of Discipline, Doom & Darkness, Strength in Numbers, etc.). However, given that the term includes the word 'unmodified' in its name, you'd assume that modifiers are inherently not applicable. Further confusing the meaning of the term is that older FAQs (1.4 & 1.5) specifically stated that modifiers are not applicable to a unit's 'Unmodified Leadership', but that language has been removed in newer FAQs leaving it up to interpretation. We know Inspiring Presence from outside the unit doesn't apply, but beyond that, we do not know how modifiers apply to an 'Unmodified Leadership' value.

Also nowhere in the FAQ does it define what a model's 'Unmodified Leadership' is within a unit (only the unit's 'Unmodified Leadership' is defined in the FAQ). Is a model's 'Unmodified Leadership' the same as the unit's? Or is it the model's profile Leadership? Taking information from the same FAQ (below), a model's 'Unmodified Leadership' would be his own profile leadership, not the unit's (extrapolated from 'every model' down to a specific 'model' AND extrapolated from characteristic test to determination of a characteristic's value). Whether the below is applicable or not is up to interpretation.

Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.

It's up to you players to determine the meaning, GW isn't going to define it for you.

Drasanil
30-12-2014, 01:10
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.


Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best value instead.

Reading those two statements together it seems pretty clear to me. If the unit as a whole is testing, use the highest unmodified leadership in the unit. If a specific(individual) model(s) is(are) testing, use its(their) unmodified leadership.

As far what a model's 'unmodified leadership' is, look at its profile. There can be no other possibility for what that is, anything else that might affect it is by definition a 'modifier'.

hardyworld
30-12-2014, 15:05
Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.
This quote is from the same current FAQ and directly contradicts the question that defines a unit's 'Unmodified Leadership' (see above posts). So according to the FAQ, the 'Unmodified Leadership' is different depending on what part of the FAQ you are using. Bravo GW, bravo.

It's up to the player to determine what an 'Unmodified Leadership' value is. Whether modifiers (Doom & Darkness, Standard of Discipline, Strength of Numbers, etc.) or substitutions (Highest Leadership characteristic in the unit, General's Inspiring Precence, etc.) are applicable is completely left up to interpretation since no clear guidance is provided.

Personally, I'd just use the value printed in the target's profile. If the target is a model, then his profile. If the target is a unit, then the highest profile Leadership of any model in the unit. If the target is a model that happens to be a Monster in a Monster & Handler unit....just assume game has no rules and make up your own (how those 3 FAQ questions above interact with the two questions below gives me a headache). (I'd actually just use the monster's profile leadership in the scenario.)

Q: If a Monster and Handlers unit is required to take a characteristic test, which values can you use? (p73)
A: You can only use the monsters characteristics; the handlers are ignored for this purpose.

Q: If a Monster and Handlers unit is required to take a Leadership test, which Leadership value can you use? (p73)
A: You must use the highest.

bigbiggles
05-01-2015, 01:32
What should it be? The value written in their profile.
What is it it? Who knows, just say 8, 9, or 10 until your opponent agrees

forseer of fates
05-01-2015, 02:16
Because of the silly errata's, unmodified ld does not exist anymore.