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emirparkreiner7
31-12-2014, 06:44
Hello Everyone,

I'm going to try out Undead Legions without Nagash. I'm facing The Eternity Host tomorrow, so Magic of the End Times will be happening. His army will include Malekith, The Eternity King, Wild Riders, and a Frostheart Phoenix. This will be an experimental game for both of us, but I want to try something formidable since The Eternity Host is pure nastiness.

Set up is the Tomb King goes with the Grave Guard, the Necromancer bunkers with the Zombies, and as many units as possible bubble around the Mortis Engine for Regeneration and casting bonuses. The Terrorgheist and Casket of Souls will try to assassinate Malekith, or at least put some pressure on him. If I understand the Magic of the End Times rules correctly, I can spam the Casket's Light of Death spell (although a unit can only be targeted once per phase).

My biggest question is - should I drop the Ghoul King? For that many points, I could choose between a Master Necromancer, another Spirit Host, a Necrotect, a Hierotitan - I have lots of models available, so I've got lots of options. Let me know what you think!

Lords

Tomb King (General) - Talisman of Preservation, Glittering Scales, Great Weapon

Strigoi Ghoul King - Red Fury, Potion of Strength, Lore of Vampires Lvl 1

Heroes

Necromancer - Lore of Vampires Lvl 1

Core

40 Skeleton Warriors - Standard, Musician

40 Zombies

40 Crypt Ghouls - Crypt Ghast

Special

29 Grave Guard - Standard Bearer, Seneschal, Musician, Banner of the Barrows

8 Crypt Horrors

Spirit Host

Khemrian Warsphinx - Fiery Breath

Rare

Terrorgheist

Mortis Engine - Blasphemous Tome

Casket of Souls

emirparkreiner7
01-01-2015, 18:19
Well, the game went as I expected. I killed a bolt thrower and lost my entire army by turn 4. Any recommendations for this list for future would be appreciated. I realized to take the Hierotitan I would need to drop another Rare unit.

-Totenkopf-
01-01-2015, 18:39
hey there, So you have some of the basis for a good list but you are lacking a few major things.. At 3k points vs elves, you have no magic presence... a lvl4 min is required.. Ghoul king is cool but blender lord is way better and a master necro is a must.. One thing you are lacking is enough punch. you have two units that can hit.. you need more.. necro knights grind well vs most elven units. A Black Knight bus may have worked better than the GG. You are also very very low on chaff.. Spirit hosts, dogs and carrion are your friends here..
As far as the hierotitan is concerned, he is a nice option but has to be used with lvl 4 casters to really be effective..

Key points:
Add magic power - needed for buffs, debuffs, killing and raising units. must, must, must have.
Add a grinder or something with high output.. Dual vargulf works really well, blender lord etc..
Add chaff - without the ability to tie things up or redirect you will never get a favorable match-up which is a must against almost every opponent esp. elves..

-Totenkopf-
01-01-2015, 18:40
I could be more helpful if I knew what your opponent brought for his/her list..

march10k
03-01-2015, 00:31
For one thing, you're playing with one hand tied behind your back by agreeing to play against a full-up end times list while availing yourself of NONE of the benefits except for mixing VC and TK, which is not all that great in an of itself because of their basic magical incompatibility. I would be running with the Mortarch of Sacrament and a block of archai at least...with plenty of stuff sideboarded for Arkhan to summon...like some blocks of blood knights...yum!

You're also treating your skellies like chaff by not giving them at least an armored tomb prince, which means the unit is way too big (for chaff). I actually don't field them at all unless it's 50 of them with an armored prince...and let me tell you, 50 of them with an armored prince is pretty flippin' scary to point-ears...dirt cheap WS5 models with a 6+/6+ against their S3 swings will grind them like nobody's business. The differential in points cost per model will seriously screw elves.

At 3k, I'd be running Arkhan, 6 archai, 2 skullapults, 2 blocks of 50 with armored princes, some chariot squadrons, maybe a casket and some cheap priests. Archai are a hammer that can handle even a dragon, chariots are flank guards (and chew up elves like crazy with impact hits), Arkhan jumps into the enemy backfield and starts spamming blood knights, carrion, and ushabti to clean out bolt throwers, archers, etc before pinning the melee units between themselves and the skittle hordes. Basically everything that starts on the table is TK, with a splash of spirit hosts, crypt horrors, blood knights, etc (plus the rest of my TK collection like the carrion that never see the table in a normal game) for Arkhan to summon.

emirparkreiner7
05-01-2015, 22:29
Thanks a lot! This is good advice. I definitely went overboard and tried to pick lots of new units to try (i.e. Warsphinx I got for Christmas). I have plenty of Dire Wolves and Spirit Hosts I can swap in. I picked the Ghoul King over the Blender Lord for rerolls against Elves, but in this match up they both would have been hunted down immediately. Malekith and a unit of Spearmen took down 40 Ghouls and the Ghoul King in one round of combat. Maybe I could have chaffed Malekith better, but with Fly I just don't know how.

Opponent's list was roughly...

Malekith, The Eternity King

Lvl 4 Archmage with High Magic

Dark Elf BSB

Assassin

35 Spearmen

18 Glade Guard

Silverhelms

15 Phoenix Guard

5 Wild Riders

15 Sisters of Averlorn

Frostheart Phoenix

Repeater Bolt Thrower

tanniith
07-01-2015, 01:05
For one thing, you're playing with one hand tied behind your back by agreeing to play against a full-up end times list while availing yourself of NONE of the benefits except for mixing VC and TK, which is not all that great in an of itself because of their basic magical incompatibility.

? Vampire and Nehek magic work stupidly well together. GG, vargheists, or horrors with an extra attack and/or kb/improved killing blow is nasty. Vanhels and desert wind give us literally the most mobile force in the game second to maybe wood elves. Necro knights with reroll to hit/reroll to wound is fantastic and light magic buffs turn dangerous vc units into downright deadly units. There's really nothing in our book that doesn't benefit from a 5+ ward save either.

march10k
10-01-2015, 20:47
I'm not sure about the other buffs, but I'm 99.9% sure that desert wind specifices TK units...In any case, most people would take LoV over LoN nine times out of nine...

Anyway, you must have responded without reading his list. He doesn't have the ability to cast the spells you mentioned. He's running a VC list with a warsphinx, a casket, and a TK. There are nice things about those, like the bonus dice from the casket (although he's not playing magic-heavy, so there's not a great need) and the really tough (but not able to heal himself) general, but the point is that he's not really taking advantage of the possibly synergies, let alone the new models, that come with Undead Legions...effectively, he's playing VC with a few random TK models thrown in for fun...against probably a full-on rape-fest of elves designed to take maximum advantage of their end times cheese. Against something like that, he needs something like ghoul hordes buffed with lore of light and supported (for decreased crumble) by morghasts, racing across the table to eliminate the enemy's tactical options before they can kill Nagash/Arkhan, who subsequently summons a hammer of blood knights in the enemy flank....or whatever... This list is VC with a couple random TK models that don't set up any neat combos with the base VC list...it begs to be raped by a "proper" end times list.

/edit/ I see...you were responding specifically to the "magical incompatibility" bit. Well, I'm sure that desert wind doesn't work on non-TK models, and the lore attribute doesn't, either. If I were running LoN casters (which is the lore you're saying is great for VC), that'd be enough to make me take TG over GG. I'd say that if it's enough incompatibility to affect unit choice in a joint list, that's pretty significant.

-Totenkopf-
11-01-2015, 02:10
End times nagash specifically states that both types of undead are fully interchangeable.. The spells work the same for both.. which means that the magics and troops support one another quite nicely..

march10k
13-01-2015, 18:48
I suppose that explicitly overrides any language limiting effects to units from the corresponding codex? As in, not only can you cast desert wind on a spirit host, but it actually regenerates wounds in the process? Wow...I need to go reread that...what page?

p.s. Totenkopf....really? As in 3rd SS Panzers?

tanniith
14-01-2015, 18:49
I suppose that explicitly overrides any language limiting effects to units from the corresponding codex? As in, not only can you cast desert wind on a spirit host, but it actually regenerates wounds in the process? Wow...I need to go reread that...what page?

p.s. Totenkopf....really? As in 3rd SS Panzers?

Yes, it does. Both types of Undead are changed to just "Undead" so all LoV and LoN abilities affect each other. I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I believe it may be in army specific rules? LoN actually becomes a lot more viable because you get improved healing on infantry models instead of relying on straight invocation spam.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
16-01-2015, 02:21
Your army has no magic and no chaff. It has no way to threaten at range and no way to secure good matchups or favourable combats. None of the units really have any synergy with each other. Its a classic "battlebox army": a variety of cool units, but no battlefield cohesion.

The trick to building a good army is to become familiar with the sorts of threats you're likely to face, and build an army that has an answer for all of those. Vampire lords are a good tool against lots of things, and can also be a wizard. You could put a WK with the nightshroud next to him, to let him still alphastrike things with ASF.

Skeleton champions are a great way to deal with solo characters, since they can't refuse challenges. Spirit hosts are a good way to deal with wild riders, who don't have magic attacks and are only T3. Direwolves are great chaff that comes from core. Terrorgheists can scream at stuff like Malekith who won't get a ward save, and can do so even when they're in combat.

It takes a lot of practice and a lot of testing things out. You've just gotta experiment.

emirparkreiner7
22-01-2015, 19:50
Thanks for the feedback! Based on what I own, more magic, more chaff, and trade the ghoul king for the Blender Lord. I don't have Morghasts unfortunately. I will probably drop the Warsphinx, as he was destroyed by 15 double-shot Glade Guard in one phase.