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MIGHT MAKES RIGHT
31-12-2014, 14:15
Hello probably an obvious question but can skaven work with a smaller model count and does anybody know roughly how many points is the skaven force in the island of blood box set???

Malixian
31-12-2014, 14:24
Depends on what you mean by smaller model count. I'm currently working on an army with an all Stormvermin core which I think will be okay for friendly noncompetitive games. My experiences with trying to run a clanrat core have been pretty rough though even in friendly games. I'd go so far as to call them a trap unit.

Poncho160
31-12-2014, 14:25
There between 500 and 800 points in the IoB box, depending how u arm stuff etc

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 14:36
It could work but you won´t get really competitive that way. Also, I (personally) wouldn´t want to play them this way. (by smaller i still think of having more models on the table than any other army)
Also, i can´t see the stuff of the IoB box get over 500 points maximum.

El_Commi
31-12-2014, 16:02
It could work but you won´t get really competitive that way. Also, I (personally) wouldn´t want to play them this way. (by smaller i still think of having more models on the table than any other army)
Also, i can´t see the stuff of the IoB box get over 500 points maximum.

Some time ago I remember running a few 750pt games using the IoB Skaven, a Doomwheel and 15 Night runners. I'd be surprised if there was 500 pts in the IoB starter - though it depends on how you kit them out.

Skaven are great fun to play.. but model count is insane :| (In part due to low point cost of many models).

Poncho160
31-12-2014, 16:22
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/08/wfb-tactics-island-of-blood-and.html

Nice, if old, bols article about the skaven side of the IoB starter set and how to run it and expand upon it

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 16:41
Oh, i forgot both weapon teams and the warlock which are included in IoB :p
indeed you could field an army more then 500 points with that.

Ograr
31-12-2014, 18:26
You could, but why would you?
Few things are more fun than having an opponent triumphantly mention that your unit loses 20 models, only for you to mention that that's not even 5% of your total army.

Poncho160
31-12-2014, 18:42
Because it's a good way of starting an army and getting into the game? :)

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 19:34
I would argue that skaven aren´t the best starter army if you´re a total newbie to warhammer out of several reasons. Moneycost/playstyle/painting effort all in all can be kind of frustrating for a beginner. Then you start to lose all your first games because of the complexity of skaven in regard to other typical beginnner armys (woc come to mind), likewise the suboptimal army composition when running low numbers, and you´re done with warhammer.

Malixian
31-12-2014, 20:24
I would argue that skaven aren´t the best starter army if you´re a total newbie to warhammer out of several reasons. Moneycost/playstyle/painting effort all in all can be kind of frustrating for a beginner. Then you start to lose all your first games because of the complexity of skaven in regard to other typical beginnner armys (woc come to mind), likewise the suboptimal army composition when running low numbers, and you´re done with warhammer.

I second this. I started warhammer with Skaven this edition and got so fustrated with the massive faq (God do I hate how its written like "in the 3rd paragraph of page 32 insert this phrase into the second half of the 3rd sentence") and how many special rules they have that I wound up quitting for awhile. Came back and played Daemons instead and wound up enjoying the game way more.

Voss
31-12-2014, 20:28
Hello probably an obvious question but can skaven work with a smaller model count and does anybody know roughly how many points is the skaven force in the island of blood box set???

All the toys make it pretty easy to eat up points. Weapon teams and jezzails certainly reduce the overall size of the army, unless you're specificallly going for hundreds of slaves.

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 21:20
I second this. I started warhammer with Skaven this edition and got so fustrated with the massive faq (God do I hate how its written like "in the 3rd paragraph of page 32 insert this phrase into the second half of the 3rd sentence") and how many special rules they have that I wound up quitting for awhile. Came back and played Daemons instead and wound up enjoying the game way more.

+ one of the oldest armybooks, yep.

Imperator64
31-12-2014, 21:43
Skaven are awful to start with. But a few years on I'm giving them another try.

Lord Dan
31-12-2014, 21:54
Skaven are awful to start with.

Sorry, what? They're usually in the top 5, if not the top 3, of powergamer's rankings.

Ramius4
31-12-2014, 21:59
Sorry, what? They're usually in the top 5, if not the top 3, of powergamer's rankings.

He meant awful to 'start learning the game' with. It's not a newb army.

Lord Dan
31-12-2014, 22:02
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. Actually, come to think of it, HE are a nuanced army as well, given their low survivability and reliance on movement and magic, which makes the IoB a fairly ironic starter kit.

Ramius4
31-12-2014, 22:08
The two armies I've always recommended to people for learning the game are Dwarfs and/or Lizardmen.

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 22:18
I wouldn´t consider elves to be a bad starter army anymore - at least if you got two beginners who just push unit against unit. This may have been the case in 6th edition, but nowadays it is a nobrainer for a elf-player beginner to just push his units in open field as most units of the opponent dramatically lose against walls of first striking rerollable attacks from three ranks or/and rerolling 1s to wound. High point cost and low toughness just don´t matter if you compare unbuffed units and synergy-less armys of beginners when every comparable unit is just dead by one round of combat/ loses by combat result. At least my opinion^^

Ramius4
31-12-2014, 22:34
I wouldn´t consider elves to be a bad starter army anymore

I do (if you're still in the stage where you're trying to teach the game rules). They ignore or alter too many basic game mechanics with ASF, re-rolls, fighting in more ranks than normal, etc. etc. When I'm teaching the game, I want to actually teach the game. Not just the exceptions.

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 22:47
You´re right on that one, i just was in a different point of view comparing two newbies teaching all to themselves. In the special situation of skaven against high elves, the skaven player would be propably screwed if you have just a point and click game (however, in IoB the warpflamethrower could make up for some disadvantages^^)
If you see the whole frame including learning the rules there is of course more to it.

Ramius4
31-12-2014, 23:02
You´re right on that one, i just was in a different point of view comparing two newbies teaching all to themselves. In the special situation of skaven against high elves, the skaven player would be propably screwed if you have just a point and click game (however, in IoB the warpflamethrower could make up for some disadvantages^^)
If you see the whole frame including learning the rules there is of course more to it.

I think we're totally in agreement, we're just bringing up the same issues from different angles :p

Thank you sir, for having a reasonable and logical discussion. :)

Poncho160
31-12-2014, 23:11
Perhaps he is asking about skaven, because he likes the look / feel / background of them?

I wouldn't recommend any army if you don't feel like you can connect with it, especially your first army.

When anyone asks what army they should get, the number one question they should answer, is what army do you like the most? Picking a fist army for any other reason, generally puts you in the road to ruin, I find :)

SuperHappyTime
31-12-2014, 23:22
I think we're totally in agreement, we're just bringing up the same issues from different angles :p

Thank you sir, for having a reasonable and logical discussion. :)

This is a touching thread to watch the year end with.


The two armies I've always recommended to people for learning the game are Dwarfs and/or Lizardmen.

The only downside with teaching with Dwarfs is teaching odd interactions in the Magic Phase, by which I mean only dispelling.


Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. Actually, come to think of it, HE are a nuanced army as well, given their low survivability and reliance on movement and magic, which makes the IoB a fairly ironic starter kit.

I personally believe IoB is a terrible starter kit. Skaven vs High Elves doesn't have the flavor of several other hated pairs (like Skaven and Dwarves, or High and Dark Elves), both armies are among the worst for beginners to paint (HE have details, Skaven have too many units), and the armies aren't even close to balanced (HE start at about 800, while Skaven at 500) or close to a decent size for a good battle. I do say the cliche Empire vs Greenskins (Racist?) would be better suited for a starter.

MasterSplinter
31-12-2014, 23:32
I think we're totally in agreement, we're just bringing up the same issues from different angles :p

Thank you sir, for having a reasonable and logical discussion. :)

Thank you too, as its not self-evidantly sometimes.
And it´s nice to have a newyears eve starting in such a courteous way - so a happy new year from europe :) (to all of you)

I wouldn't recommend any army if you don't feel like you can connect with it, especially your first army.

When anyone asks what army they should get, the number one question they should answer, is what army do you like the most? Picking a fist army for any other reason, generally puts you in the road to ruin, I find :)

You´re right on that, i think it just might be helpful to absolute beginners who are torn between factions (and i know i was when i started, hell i was, i agonized weeks over it and now some 15 years later it doesn´t even matter as i collect most armys, but who knows, maybe if i had chosen high elves that time over woc and wood elves i would not be around here this day) to give them a little push to the direction which might keep them most satisfied with the hobby.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT
02-01-2015, 13:40
Well I'm not a newbie put also don't play that often either, just really like the skaven models just not that keen on the amount needed to play them was all, thanks for all the replies tho guys

Imperator64
04-01-2015, 18:12
I'd agree that empire and greenskins are tw of thebest options for starters. Chaos warriors are also great armies for starters. Maybe they've never been in a starter set because the mldel count means you wouldnt need to buy very many new.models.afterwards.

Paulie1976
01-06-2015, 14:54
I'm just getting back into it. Hopefully they read this thread when looking at the next starter set as I agree completely - but do like skaven all the same :)

mbh1127
01-06-2015, 15:23
skaven are also really tough to paint to a high standard if you are starting out.

Paulie1976
01-06-2015, 21:56
Used to play and painting years ago so not a total novice. Like the character of the skaven models. The challenge is maintaining a good quality when there are so many of them.

mbh1127
01-06-2015, 23:17
the color scheme is also a big issue. All brown armies can look terrible.

Col. Tartleton
02-06-2015, 05:17
Skaven would shine more in a skirmish where painting a few dozen to pit against a handful of adventurous humans or elves is more reasonable. But when the enemy puts down a hundred elves+ you have to put down several hundred skaven while the ratio is the same instead of painting 30 vs 10 for a difference of 20 its 300 vs 100 for a difference of 200. Instead of needing a week to paint your guys you need a few weeks, but you'll still both be done in a month. Instead of a couple months to paint your army you'll need like a year.

Paulie1976
02-06-2015, 14:06
I have used orange as a dash of colour on my skaven to try to avoid the dark and muddy look that a big block of skaven can give - they look alright, its not to garish but breaks it up a bit.

FatTrucker
02-06-2015, 14:31
You can run a low model count Skaven army but its applications are limited.
Some Skaven special characters allow you to take more expensive (points) units as core, and adding fully upgraded gutter runners, stormfiends, forgeworld stuff and a max allocation of their excellent rare choices can build you a 2000-3000 point army with around a third of the models of a conventional Skaven build.

The problem with doing it is that Skaven are designed to die in vast numbers. Their units are cheap and numerous for a reason and without the numbers to hold and grind down a foe the rules/points synergy is broken and they're likely to lose most of the time.

Paulie1976
02-06-2015, 22:33
I agree with Amstrad philosophy of stack em high and sell em cheap when looking at skaven armies - that's the point right?
I really don't like stormfiends at all, if I wanted models that look like they belong in 40k I'd play 40k!!