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Doommasters
05-01-2015, 00:23
I have to throw it out there I am all over the place with WHFB now....for the first time in a long time I have simply stopped buying models/armies as I have no idea what is going to happen with 9th. End Times while totally amazing and great reading has raised more questions that answers about what 9th edition is going to look like. Does anyone else feel this way? I mean do you build a combined Eldar army or is it going to totally change in 12 months and then I have all this painted plastic I can't really use........that is just one of the questions :)

What is everyone else grappling with??

Voss
05-01-2015, 00:31
It raised my interest level from indifferent to 'wonder what will happen.' It hasn't magically recreated people to play against, so really I just wonder what 9th will be like. I hope the changes actually stick, but have enough doubts about it, that basically I will just watch the angst from the sidelines with a bucket of popcorn.

If a good game emerges from the wreckage brought on by 7th edition and the overly timid revision of 8th, I'll be pleased, but honestly a little surprised.

SkawtheFalconer
05-01-2015, 00:41
The sheer pace of the releases means that it seems like every time I go to my club our most enthusiastic member is regaling me with tales of new units and fluff that I really can't follow. It's a small problem of course, and I'm mostly just pleased Fantasy is finally getting some attention and creativity applied to it.

The bearded one
05-01-2015, 00:55
Yes.

No.

Maybe.

I don't know!

I'm excited, and my local scene is excited, but I don't know what fantasy will look like when the story is done.

Lord Dan
05-01-2015, 01:10
Yes.

No.

Maybe.

I don't know!

I'm excited, and my local scene is excited, but I don't know what fantasy will look like when the story is done.

This about sums it up for me, as well.

Ramius4
05-01-2015, 01:54
I'm more excited about it than anything else. I've been playing since 1993, so the setting has been stagnating for a very long time.

Honestly, I don't care if there is a 9th ed. If there is, my group will buy one copy just to try it. As we've said over the years, if they put out an edition we don't like, we'll just keep playing the one we like best. And that's 8th so far.

forseer of fates
05-01-2015, 02:21
For me, it depends what they do with 9th edition, if the combined books are what's army books are going to be then that's ok, at least story is moving forward. IF not, then I don't know.

Montegue
05-01-2015, 02:29
For me it's mostly dread that they'll black templar my army into the Empire. I love my army, it's the only one I'm likely ever to play seriously, and I'd hate to see it be just something folks look at for war machines in their OP 40-K style unbound lists.

The fluff is medium-intersting, with lots of character death, but it's irritating to watch so many bastions of Order just fold up like a five dollar wal-mart chair. I want to see a real hit back at Chaos, and it's not forthcoming. I like that my army has lots of glorious holds left, even though many have fallen. I'd hate to lose the Everpeak and what not in the fluff, and it already looks like the Slayer keep is doomed.

forseer of fates
05-01-2015, 02:39
I think back in the day, dwarfs were part of the empire army book anyway. Seems to be the theme atm.

Ramius4
05-01-2015, 02:48
I think back in the day, dwarfs were part of the empire army book anyway. Seems to be the theme atm.

No they weren't. ALthough the Empire had access to units of Imperial Dwarfs (Dwarf craftsmen and expatriates living in the Empire). But they also had Ogres and Halflings too. It was just a much more multicultural Empire than what is depicted today.

Stegadeth
05-01-2015, 04:22
Currently, as far as I heard last, my Lizardmen are setting off for outer space. I am still buying models. As far as I know, the big dinosaur kits are still moderately popular and they did just release new models with our AB revision less than a year and a half ago. I know some people who feel like Lizardmen just don't fit the setting, and I get that to an extent. After all, they are way out in Lustria, they have a sort of pre-historic feel and lack of technology compared to the Old World setting of most of the other armies, and they are barely humanoid in both fluff and practice. Clearly, they'd be easy to cut out. I just don't see that happening.

Kingrick
05-01-2015, 04:50
I'll say this with the risk of getting criticized, I don't find the end times very interesting at all. First book caught my attention, second book I was slightly interested, and third book I checked out. I don't like the big characters much, Nagash and them just seem silly. I also find the combined book approach to me somewhat lazy. I liked how the storm of chaos actually had unique armies like the cult of slaanesh, that kind of stuff added a little more to the game for me. I did buy the Nagash hardback however, but I am planning to either sell it or trade it off when I get a chance. I'm ignoring the end times and just playing my warriors, vampires, and wood elves pre end times, and hoping the things don't get too screwed up for 9th edition with all this end times stuff.

Kingrick
05-01-2015, 04:51
No they weren't. ALthough the Empire had access to units of Imperial Dwarfs (Dwarf craftsmen and expatriates living in the Empire). But they also had Ogres and Halflings too. It was just a much more multicultural Empire than what is depicted today.

I miss halflings

Raf
05-01-2015, 05:01
I play Bretonnians. Not like my army even has a current army book to participate in this event. The Bretonnian army book has a copyright from 2003. With more than ten years since the last army update, Games Workshop placed a great deal of pressure on their next Bretonnia book. With so minimal change over editions, Bretonnian players expect the next army book to have a certain feel. In short, Bretonnian players form a core more stubborn than dwarfs.

Add in all sorts of changes from the End Times, with Brets receiving just enough treatment in the new story line to kill them off. I have no real interest in End of Times events. Not sure if Bretonnia will even receive a new army book. Not purchasing anything until the new Bretonnia book comes out.

dwarf_zepplin
05-01-2015, 05:19
I'll say this with the risk of getting criticized, I don't find the end times very interesting at all. First book caught my attention, second book I was slightly interested, and third book I checked out. I don't like the big characters much, Nagash and them just seem silly. I also find the combined book approach to me somewhat lazy. I liked how the storm of chaos actually had unique armies like the cult of slaanesh, that kind of stuff added a little more to the game for me. I did buy the Nagash hardback however, but I am planning to either sell it or trade it off when I get a chance. I'm ignoring the end times and just playing my warriors, vampires, and wood elves pre end times, and hoping the things don't get too screwed up for 9th edition with all this end times stuff.

I'm pretty much the same, except I bought all the first three hard backs... I really wanted to give GW a chance with this, but as an older player I'm feeling more and more alienated by the destruction of the world I fought over for so many years. I don't understand the 'stagnant' setting complaints, after all it's just a setting. To me, it's up to the player to make their own narratives out of it. Which I will continue to do, but the End Times marks the point where my fluff now diverges from accepted cannon. I don't want to detract from the enjoyment of anyone else who likes the new developments but it is not for me.

To reply to the OP, my friends and I have stopped buying ANYTHING from GW, because no one knows what will happen with the rules in 9th. Even subtle changes to rules like steadfast, movement, combat etc have the potential to radically alter things like optimum unit sizes and troop choices. Who wants to paint tons of plastic that turns out to be unnecessary in a new edition?

Since I started playing in 5th edition I have been getting tired of seeing popular troops nerfed and weaker troops buffed at the same time, so that rather than repairing internal balance issues, they are in fact made worse (daemons anyone?). Is this done to drive sales? I'm not a cynic by nature but it's starting to look that way to me, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion...

Stegadeth
05-01-2015, 06:18
Since I started playing in 5th edition I have been getting tired of seeing popular troops nerfed and weaker troops buffed at the same time, so that rather than repairing internal balance issues, they are in fact made worse (daemons anyone?). Is this done to drive sales? I'm not a cynic by nature but it's starting to look that way to me, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion...

Perhaps I am cynical too, but I fully believe that rules and stats are changed to make older models either more or less viable. I am sitting on several units of skinks armed with bows, and jungle swarms are actually worth looking at due to their new rules and the synergy they offer with certain builds for instance. I fully expect the next iteration of the Lizardmen AB to make the Troglodon and Bastiladon better choices. We might also see a change to skinks and/or Saurus to make the Saurus stand out a little more as we all know what skink clouds are doing leaving Saurus probably not selling as well. Not that Saurus are a bad choice, but in an age of points denial, chaffing and double flees being so good on the competitive circuit we may see a change in the main rules to make ranked infantry better in order to sell more models.

Ok, yeah it looks like I am a cynic. I fully understand folks sitting it out until 9th edition comes along and we can see what shakes out, but I am not one of those folks.

Rudra34
05-01-2015, 07:35
I miss halflings


That's the smartest thing anyone has ever said on these forums.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 08:25
Yes.

No.

Maybe.

I don't know!

I'm excited, and my local scene is excited, but I don't know what fantasy will look like when the story is done.

This was my reaction initially, I loved the whole bringing Nagash back thing, the problem is the whole thing is moving way too fast. It takes me literally months, even years to buy, paint and get a new army to the table and we have characters who rise to prominence and get killed off in the space of a single book. An army of the Aestyrion would be really cool, led by Tyrion as the avatar of Khaine... Except that he is already dead, oh. Or what about an army of the Glottkin, what's that Karl Franz did what... oh.

I think the problem is that GW is acting like they are writing some kind of RPG or computer game background that people will just buy and play through, keep up with the evolving story and be done with it, assembling an army for a table top wargame tends to proceed at a decidedly more glacial pace.

Anyway, then the Khaine book happened... with one single publication they managed to gut the character of three armies by combining them into a single blandified mess. I got to enjoy my wood elf army book for almost six months before their background got shot to hell, that did not impress me one iota. It's the classic problem, two hardcore enemies find themselves having to join forces to fight a common foe, that foe (Tyrion) gets vanquished so what happens next... clearly the two former enemies are going to move into together, form a politically stable nation and the queen of the high elves is going to settle down and have Malekith's babies... what???

Wesser
05-01-2015, 09:37
The real answer is:

I've stopped buying models. Uncertainty over whats going to happen keeps me from buying new units altogether.

I push on playing 8th as I don't want to invest in new units if ET is temporary, nor play using the proxies required to play ET.


ET brought inertia to me really, but maybe's its because im not into centerpieces..

HereComesTomorrow
05-01-2015, 09:48
This was my reaction initially, I loved the whole bringing Nagash back thing, the problem is the whole thing is moving way too fast. It takes me literally months, even years to buy, paint and get a new army to the table and we have characters who rise to prominence and get killed off in the space of a single book. An army of the Aestyrion would be really cool, led by Tyrion as the avatar of Khaine... Except that he is already dead, oh. Or what about an army of the Glottkin, what's that Karl Franz did what... oh.

I think the problem is that GW is acting like they are writing some kind of RPG or computer game background that people will just buy and play through, keep up with the evolving story and be done with it, assembling an army for a table top wargame tends to proceed at a decidedly more glacial pace.

Anyway, then the Khaine book happened... with one single publication they managed to gut the character of three armies by combining them into a single blandified mess. I got to enjoy my wood elf army book for almost six months before their background got shot to hell, that did not impress me one iota. It's the classic problem, two hardcore enemies find themselves having to join forces to fight a common foe, that foe (Tyrion) gets vanquished so what happens next... clearly the two former enemies are going to move into together, form a politically stable nation and the queen of the high elves is going to settle down and have Malekith's babies... what???

Man, if only the rules were optional and the timeline was fluid. Or there was some way to just ignore fluff...

Also, I don't know why people keep saying that the Elves lived happily ever after. I've not read Khaine but I'm assuming it ends pretty soon after the Elvessettle in Athel Loren. I'm not sure how we can assume theres no tension between the races. When you have a book on a grand scale like the End Times you can't focus on why Steve the High Elf is annoyed at Jim the Dark Elf for killing his cat.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 10:25
Man, if only the rules were optional and the timeline was fluid. Or there was some way to just ignore fluff...

Also, I don't know why people keep saying that the Elves lived happily ever after. I've not read Khaine but I'm assuming it ends pretty soon after the Elvessettle in Athel Loren. I'm not sure how we can assume theres no tension between the races. When you have a book on a grand scale like the End Times you can't focus on why Steve the High Elf is annoyed at Jim the Dark Elf for killing his cat.

Optional rules are fine, except that I like the idea behind the end times overall, I'd just rather they hadn't screwed over the three elf factions. Timelines however are not fluid, barring some kind of ham-fisted retcon like they did with storm of chaos. If it's in the background it happened, or is happening or will happen.

People play warhammer for different reasons, some people like the game, others the models and still others the background. Telling a 'background' player he should just ignore sections of the background is like telling a 'models' player he should save money by playing the game with Mantic models, it completely undermines his most enjoyable part of the game experience.

The only reason I have t sold my wood elves already is that I'm waiting to see if they get resurrected as their own faction in 9th edition, if they stay as part of a bland generic elf faction when the setting stabilises they'll be going straight on ebay.

HereComesTomorrow
05-01-2015, 10:34
But nothing GW has done has made them generic elves. They were always just another flavour of elf, just elves that had talking trees and shot at things more than the others.

Any "generic" feeling you're getting is one that you are imposing on them yourself. Our local Wood Elf player has been playing them for 20+ years and hasn't been bothered by the changes. He still plays with just the units from the Wood Elf book. Nothing is forcing you to include Dark or High elves.

Mithrilherz
05-01-2015, 10:38
Sorry to say but many things stated here are hard to comprehend!

Why should I sell my armies I have invested a lot of time and money in because just GW is publishing Endtimes?
I have all armies except Skaven and Beastmen, all in huge points numbers because I own basically almost all existing metal modells and a big amount of the plastics as well.
On my website, I have worked background for all armies over the years
Why should I throw this all away?

During a quick and dirty normal game, no one cares about the background! And even during campaigns, you can set any background you and your mates like.
In all the battle reports I write and publish on the website, there a narrative elements in it.
If you like the Endtimes, use their background. If not, leave it.
No-one will lawsuit you if you are using a different background.
GW is a miniature company, so they do not care as well.

I think people are overreacting way to much, but on the other hand, is this not the purpose of all Warseer?

logan054
05-01-2015, 11:48
Since I started playing in 5th edition I have been getting tired of seeing popular troops nerfed and weaker troops buffed at the same time, so that rather than repairing internal balance issues, they are in fact made worse (daemons anyone?). Is this done to drive sales? I'm not a cynic by nature but it's starting to look that way to me, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion...

I don't think your being cynical at all, the rules haven driven sales for as long as I can remember. That's the problem with a miniatures company writing its own rules, they create some new plastic kits and they want a return on it (or they have some kits that didn't go so well last time round), simple as. In a lot of ways I'd rather just use GW models with another rules system, I'm hoping warthrone puts something out soon.

TheLionReturns
05-01-2015, 11:59
I have to say there is quite a degree of uncertainty at the moment and initially I felt some trepidation at planning future purchases.

First off let me state that I am really enjoying the end times story. However, enjoying the story and liking the outcome are two different things, and my fears about the End Times: Khaine and the fate of the elves have been realised. Specifically I was worried about the background of the Asrai being undermined and their distinctiveness being lost. The loss of Ariel and Orion really cuts the heart out of the wood elves and especially that link to the cycles of the seasons and of life and death. Add to that my inability to reconcile the hostility of Athel Loren as an environment and the mass immigration and it just doesn't make any sense to me how this is possible.

The thing is little really changes for me. I have never been one to buy units based on rules, but rather background and aesthetics. I still like what I like, and that means predominantly wood elves, so the expanded list has little relevance to me in terms of forcing me somewhere I would rather not go (I don't feel the need to try and break the game in the name of competition). In fact End Times Khaine has even given me some workable rules to field Ariel in the form of Allarielle Incarnate of Life. Furthermore, with new unit entries to play with it has opened up the possibility of using rules from the Dark Elf and High Elf books to represent new wood elf units I can make some fluff up for and convert models for.

With the background, this has always been something that is malleable. Don't like our new Dark Elf overlord? Set your wood elves up as a rebel faction sticking to the old ways and hostile to anyone who enters their realm. Personally I have decided to set my games pre-end times, with the End Times one possible future foreseen by Naiath and Ariel that they are working to avoid.

My hobby is built on my preferences for story and aesthetics. Everything GW releases is used, adapted or discarded based on these preferences. Once the initial shock of the changes subsided I have seen the End Times books as an opportunity rather than a problem.

MiyamatoMusashi
05-01-2015, 12:41
Yes.

No.

Maybe.

I don't know!

I'm excited, and my local scene is excited, but I don't know what fantasy will look like when the story is done.

Similar for me, but replace the exclamation marks with periods and "excited" with "curious".

Sure, it's nice to see Fantasy get some love again; but the fundamental problems I have with the game were never the fluff, so the fluff changes mean very little to me. I hope it means we can expect major crunch changes in future, because I think major crunch changes are needed, but what will they be, and even if they are good, will I still care if the fluff has changed beyond recognition? Maybe. Let's wait and see. I live in hope. But let's wait and see.

HelloKitty
05-01-2015, 12:57
I would expect 9th edition to build on 8th edition and tweak things here and there. I don't expect an overhaul of the system.

Scammel
05-01-2015, 13:02
No, and I have not a single clue why anyone would be. 9th will come, it will be like every new edition of recent years and your models will remain useable. Why does this community enjoy creating so much faux drama? Merged lists are already here and they haven't invalidated a single damn thing.

Sotek
05-01-2015, 13:08
Can we not just go back to 6th edition with the modified spell charts?

SuperHappyTime
05-01-2015, 13:23
Can we not just go back to 6th edition with the modified spell charts?

No, but only because I never played 6th Edition.

No to End Times Magic as well. They aren't in the BRB and I'm trying to grow Fantasy in my area. It's already enough of a hurdle to get a person to begin playing a game with a starting price-tag of $200, and there's no way I'm telling him there are new rules to the magic phase that are hard to explain unless you get another $65 book.

If those are the rules that come out for 9th Edition, that's fine. But they better damn well clean up the clear as mud wording.

Horus38
05-01-2015, 14:14
Can we not just go back to 6th edition with the modified spell charts?

Lol, yea no. "I lost to your fear causing enemy unit that outnumbers me and I automatically run away? Oh..."

HelloKitty
05-01-2015, 14:32
Lol, yea no. "I lost to your fear causing enemy unit that outnumbers me and I automatically run away? Oh..."

I am ashamed to say that I played vampire counts in 6th edition entirely because of that rule, and that it won me many games because it was... well... broken.

boli
05-01-2015, 14:46
a bit in limbo here as well... some rules and army mergers I like - others I do not.

like:
* Option for Legions of Chaos
* Option for Legion of Phoenix King / Legion of Estyrion Lists
* Option for Undead Legion

Dislike:
* New Magic
* New End Time Spells
* Option for Eternity King List
* Special Characters in End Times: Khaine List (All)

Unsure on:
* New Skaven rules (although love the models!)

a lot depends on how/if 9th edition will change things; I'm personally just hoping that 9th will just tweak a few rules but mainly keep things in the same line as 8th edition where infantry >>>> single monsters/characters killing everything so we can just move over smoothly...else there might be some cherry picking of rules going on. (I have no desire to return to hero hammer again)

Liber
05-01-2015, 15:03
I like that my army has lots of glorious holds left, even though many have fallen. I'd hate to lose the Everpeak and what not in the fluff, and it already looks like the Slayer keep is doomed.


Yes, I expect the Dwarfs to get kicked extremely hard based on whats happened to other 'good guy' races so far, as well as whats been written about the Dwarfs. Really feels like they're being set up for a fall :cries:


As far as general ET 'disarray' goes...yah, I think everyone (even those enjoying it like I have) is feeling it.

Typo
05-01-2015, 15:10
I'm enjoying the ET books at the moment, but with 9th on the cards, and no events at WHW due to the refurb at the moment, I've been refraining from buying into new armies or expanding my existing ones based on End Times until I see which rules change / get used.

I'm slowly running out of models to paint...

logan054
05-01-2015, 15:23
I would expect 9th edition to build on 8th edition and tweak things here and there. I don't expect an overhaul of the system.

Not sure, it seems every couple of editions we have a pretty big shakeup of how warhammer runs, so far its been 4th, 6th and 8th. It may not invalid any armybooks likes with 8th but I'm sure it will be a big enough shakeup to change the style of army everyone uses.


Can we not just go back to 6th edition with the modified spell charts?

Would that mean mono-khorne got dispel dice for every unit on the table as well?

I would kinda like to see something more like we have in 40k with MR being a sort of deny the witch bonus. It wouldn't be hard to issue erratas for Magic lores in books.

Voss
05-01-2015, 16:09
No, and I have not a single clue why anyone would be. 9th will come, it will be like every new edition of recent years and your models will remain useable. Why does this community enjoy creating so much faux drama? Merged lists are already here and they haven't invalidated a single damn thing.

Right, because new editions are when things get invalidated, not during the supplementary material designed to raise interest. People aren't worried about now, they're worried about the future. And when supplements end, things change. Often with GW its the supplementary material vanishing (all those happy Storm of Chaos slayer and sea elf armies; or the Lost and the Damned from Eye of Terror), but the ET fluff changes are so massive it seems foolish to think that won't affect post-ET army books and editions.

And given the changes in 40k, specifically, for example Black Templars being cut from the list of armies with books of their own and added the SM tome, it seems like GW is finally willing to pony up and make decisions people won't like. Which definitely adds to the feeling of uncertainty about the future.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 16:12
Sorry to say but many things stated here are hard to comprehend!

Why should I sell my armies I have invested a lot of time and money in because just GW is publishing

You shouldn't, and I didn't say you should. I currently collect 4 armies and I started all of them because I was attracted to the character of that army, when the background and character of that army is significantly changed that removes the whole basis of collecting that army for me. I didn't want to collect high elves, or dark elves, and I certainly don't want to collect hiwoodark elves.


During a quick and dirty normal game, no one cares about the background! And even during campaigns, you can set any background you and your mates like.
In all the battle reports I write and publish on the website, there a narrative elements in it.
If you like the Endtimes, use their background. If not, leave it.
No-one will lawsuit you if you are using a different background.
GW is a miniature company, so they do not care as well.

I never thought I would say this on a Wargames forum, but I don't do 'quick and dirty' games. The end times is a brilliant narrative concept I'm just annoyed that they completely screwed the pooch for the elf factions, it would have been better if they had left them out altogether.

Commissar Davis
05-01-2015, 16:26
Have a Boarder Price army so no idea how it really effects me other than likely to have my list stomped on by almost any of the big ET stuff.

Theocracity
05-01-2015, 17:12
My hobby's in a state of disarray, but it has nothing to do with the End Times and everything to do with the state of my office / workspace and World of Warcraft :p.

I'm gonna pick up some of the new Skaven when I get that stuff sorted out. As for the changing situation of fluff and rules, I'm not bothered. I collect things that I think are cool, and try not to spam stuff, so I rarely end up with completely useless models when the rules change (even if all they're good for is making me happy about how they look). And historical armies are perfectly fine in my book - if I had the bandwidth I'd probably collect an Aestyrion army, even if that didn't survive all that long background-wise. Not every battle has to make perfect story sense as long as your internal theme still makes you happy.

tneva82
05-01-2015, 17:55
Man, if only the rules were optional and the timeline was fluid. Or there was some way to just ignore fluff...

Good thing they are and there is ;) (but maybe my sarcasm meter is not fully working here)


Sorry to say but many things stated here are hard to comprehend!

Why should I sell my armies I have invested a lot of time and money in because just GW is publishing Endtimes?

'cause people like to make things more miserable than they need and then blame GW.

"bohoo games just got shooting fest. What's that? Add terrain? I don't want to!"
"GW invalidates fluff all the time just by releasing new army book that doesn't specifically mention it! Nevermind it's not CONTRADICTED it's still been retconned out of game!" Ummm...Says where?
*GW gives more options* "Bohoo now I HAVE TO USE THESE OPTIONS YOU SCREWED ME GW!"


I don't think your being cynical at all, the rules haven driven sales for as long as I can remember. That's the problem with a miniatures company writing its own rules, they create some new plastic kits and they want a return on it (or they have some kits that didn't go so well last time round), simple as. In a lot of ways I'd rather just use GW models with another rules system, I'm hoping warthrone puts something out soon.

Ah yes every new model comes after all with uberbroken rules...

...oh what's that? Pile of new models that just SUCK in game?

For every broken new unit there's just as many if not more that competive players don't bother with.



Right, because new editions are when things get invalidated, not during the supplementary material designed to raise interest. People aren't worried about now, they're worried about the future. And when supplements end, things change. Often with GW its the supplementary material vanishing (all those happy Storm of Chaos slayer and sea elf armies; or the Lost and the Damned from Eye of Terror), but the ET fluff changes are so massive it seems foolish to think that won't affect post-ET army books and editions.

Good news(or bad news if you would WANT ET retconned :D) is that this time GW has 100% control without having to make any effort whatsoever to have to make it look at least bit like gamer's game results(which were riddled with cheats anyway) so odds are much diminished. When they can simply go where-ever they want there's less incentive for them to rollback.

Which is good or bad depending on your POV :D I'm still bit miffed about "losing" high elf vs dark elf civil war but...Then again who says I have to play in the current timeline anyway? Warhammer has never enforced playing only on the newest timeline so why would I start limiting myself now either(see above what I said about players making things more miserable to themselves VOLUNTARILY :D)

NagashLover
05-01-2015, 18:01
I'm in disarray at how much I have enjoyed ET.

Finally gave me Undead back...so those upset about how the Elves lost their identity when they merged, well that's how I felt ever since Undead split.

When Tomb Kings were ripped from Undead...it changed the background of the Undead history. A terrible piece of retcon that ultimately summed up to..."new army buy it now!".

The difference is the Elves even with the merge did not lose their identity one bit.

The individual army books exist, which still have the history of the armies. Furthermore, ET takes place on a timeline which means even if the Elves get merged it doesn't remove the fact that they are still distinct and unique factions within the same race/book. Their individual history is still their individual history just because they are forced to live in closer proximity now doesn't mean they weren't split and didn't hate one another before...or change the fact they have distinct personalities. Lastly, just because they share the same treehouse now, it doesn't mean they have all automatically turned into elven versions of Agent Smith's (...or all Lord Elronds).


So did I sob over how GW really did screw the pooch with Undead like some seem with Elves now? No. My army fluff is pretty much 15% what GW pushes out and 85% my own creation. Just like with ET, I've modified my characters fluff to the point it didn't actually change any of the previous history (unlike with Tomb Kings where it ended up with me saying...ok that never happened apparently).

ET's has changed a lot, which I find refreshing as I've been playing since '93. It has forced me to change logically and naturally my character's (all of them across 6 armies) motivations, themes and details rather than having to retcon and bring a giant eraser to my armies fluff.

I can understand some are upset because of change, to them Papa Nurgle is more the way to go. I can understand and I do agree with some, on how certain characters have been handled. The whole "elves have been gutted and lost all character", I disagree with based on the grounds of faulty logic, assumptions and failing to see the potential of having the major elves factions in much closer proximity to one another.

In the end no matter what GW does, I'll still be paving my own way in the world they have made. "Official" fluff is neat and great but it doesn't impact the army I play in any degree. It has no actual place in any of the pickup games I play nor any of the Narrative games I play. Simply because I see the fluff not as a box that limits (like some in this topic believe) what my army should be, but as a framework or a starting point to help build my own fluff, narratives and stories.

So unless I missed something where now all 3 elven factions have been stated as loving each other and decided to get matching tattoos and go under the knife so they all act and look the same (maybe it was in the ET: Khaine but I didn't see it as others here have)...then they're really jumping the gun.

Now more on topic...what am I grappling with? Ravenously going through my bits box(es) to harmonize further my TK and VC stuff. I have a lot of stuff (new and old) to create a more unified theme.

tneva82
05-01-2015, 18:06
So unless I missed something where now all 3 elven factions have been stated as loving each other and decided to get matching tattoos and go under the knife so they all act and look the same (maybe it was in the ET: Khaine but I didn't see it as others here have)...then they're really jumping the gun.

More of there's no more logical reason for HE and DE to fight against each other to bitter end. *insert quote from moby dick here*

That if you want to stick to current timeline of course. Me. I ignore current timeline when I want to play HE vs DE :D HE vs DE civil war is my favourite part of warhammmer lore(that's what drew me into FB and GW games in the first place!) so I'll be sticking to that no matter what GW does.

Scammel
05-01-2015, 18:12
The individual army books exist, which still have the history of the armies.

The structure of the TET merged lists clearly demonstrates a commitment to maintaining individual army books. Am I right in thinking people honestly believe that both TET and army books will immediately be replaced by a number of new books that contain complete merged lists?


And given the changes in 40k, specifically, for example Black Templars being cut from the list of armies with books of their own and added the SM tome, it seems like GW is finally willing to pony up and make decisions people won't like. Which definitely adds to the feeling of uncertainty about the future.

Brilliant example, thanks. Even on the rare occasion a book itself was invalidated, GW took steps to make sure those BT models remained entirely playable, an approach they've stuck to quite well for some years now.

logan054
05-01-2015, 18:15
Ah yes every new model comes after all with uberbroken rules...

...oh what's that? Pile of new models that just SUCK in game?

For every broken new unit there's just as many if not more that competive players don't bother with.

I'm sorry, I made a generalization, is that not allowed? I can't think of that many new models that haven't come with good rules, if its a dual kit, usually, one of the options is good. If it does come with poor rules it usually gets buffed in the next book.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 18:19
The structure of the TET merged lists clearly demonstrates a commitment to maintaining individual army books. Am I right in thinking people honestly believe that both TET and army books will immediately be replaced by a number of new books that contain complete merged lists?

Not immediately, maybe not even this year, but ultimately that has to be what will happen. The alternative is a storm of chaos style retcon, obliterating the End times from the timeline completely and pretending it never happened, in my view they have sunk far too much into it at this point to paper over the whole thing.

The writing is on the wall now for elves, at least tomb kings got a credible re-entry into the Undead army, the elf conglomeration was poorly written and it was clear the story was being contrived to fit the objective of merging the armies rather than arising as a logical result of where the story was going.


Brilliant example, thanks. Even on the rare occasion a book itself was invalidated, GW took steps to make sure those BT models remained entirely playable, an approach they've stuck to quite well for some years now.

No, a rather irrelevent example, the space marine codex in 40k is unique in that game and wfb in that it contains rules for many different armies. Black Templars lost nothing by being filtered back into the space marine codex, the elf factions have lost their distinct cultures, a large percentage of their characters and two out of three homelands. If you're trying to claim warhammer elves are going to become wfb's space marines I don't think you quite understand what space marines represent to GW.

tneva82
05-01-2015, 18:24
I'm sorry, I made a generalization, is that not allowed? I can't think of that many new models that haven't come with good rules, if its a dual kit, usually, one of the options is good. If it does come with poor rules it usually gets buffed in the next book.

Generalization that's markedly false. Generalization is fine. Spreading misinformation is less cool.

It's common misconception that GW is pushing newest models with broken rules but it's so sporadic that it's not true.

Much more truer statement is GW wants _change_. But how they change balance is much more random than people think. It's case of selective memory. Couple new broken units come and bang every new unit is broken.

Just like how many poker players are cursing how rigged sites are when they get sucked out by 2 outer but don't think all the times they DIDN'T get sucked out.

I think that's actually genetical thing. Human brains are good because they are good at recognizing patterns. Problem is they are so good at it that they can detect patterns EVEN WHEN THERE ISN'T ONE :)

tneva82
05-01-2015, 18:25
Not immediately, maybe not even this year, but ultimately that has to be what will happen. The alternative is a storm of chaos style retcon, obliterating the End times from the timeline completely. The writing is on the wall now for elves, at least tomb kings got a credible re-entry into

Or they could do it like now. Individual armies with possibility to mix 'em up. Best of both worlds so to speak. Give everybody chance to enjoy things. And GW more books to sell for players...

Scammel
05-01-2015, 18:29
Not immediately, maybe not even this year, but ultimately that has to be what will happen. The alternative is a storm of chaos style retcon, obliterating the End times from the timeline completely. The writing is on the wall now for elves, at least tomb kings got a credible re-entry into the Undead army, the elf conglomeration was poorly written and it was clear the story was being contrived to fit the objective of merging the armies rather than arising as a logical result of where the story was going.

Or they could just not do that and keep the status quo, which evidently has something going for it as they wouldn't have created the army books + TET structure in the first instance. Does it not occur that this is it? These are the merged lists H&H foretold, and that this, what we currently have, is the future?


If you're trying to claim warhammer elves are going to become wfb's space marines I don't think you quite understand what space marines represent to GW.

Yes, I meant Elves are Space Marines. :eyebrows: You know full well what I meant: GW is not in the habit of invalidating models these days.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 18:35
Or they could just not do that and keep the status quo, which evidently has something going for it as they wouldn't have created the army books + TET structure in the first instance. Does it not occur that this is it? These are the merged lists H&H foretold, and that this, what we currently have, is the future?

That would be kind of sucky, especially if the End times magic rules stay as they are (and remain a requirement of the ET elf lists), I'll most likely just steer completely clear of the elf faction altogether and use my other armies.

HelloKitty
05-01-2015, 18:52
I would expect the ET magic rules to be what 9th edition is using overall.

logan054
05-01-2015, 19:17
Generalization that's markedly false. Generalization is fine. Spreading misinformation is less cool.

It's common misconception that GW is pushing newest models with broken rules but it's so sporadic that it's not true.

Much more truer statement is GW wants _change_. But how they change balance is much more random than people think. It's case of selective memory. Couple new broken units come and bang every new unit is broken.

Just like how many poker players are cursing how rigged sites are when they get sucked out by 2 outer but don't think all the times they DIDN'T get sucked out.

I think that's actually genetical thing. Human brains are good because they are good at recognizing patterns. Problem is they are so good at it that they can detect patterns EVEN WHEN THERE ISN'T ONE :)

Not really unless your including units which already had rules written, generally if its a new unit with new models it's going to pretty good. Most of the exceptions that spring to mind are a result of switching from metal to plastic (that and characters on monsters which end times seems to "fixing"). I don't think the change to "balance" is even remotely random, 6th and 7th was all about cavalry getting the charge, 8th changed it so people bought massive blocks of infantry, which then changed to MI and MC. This either stuff that didn't exist or just wasn't used.

Lord Inquisitor
05-01-2015, 19:22
I sincerely hope they learn from the response to the End Times magic and we see some modifications. The magic system is not entirely without merit but in it's current state it's so much worse than standard 8th ed rules it's largely garbage. If 9th uses the Khaine rules without any changes that'll be a big turn off for many people including me.

Overall, End Times has been something of a non-event by and large in my scene. We toyed around with it a bit but then it was largely ignored. Mind you I play with competitive players so unless tournaments start adopting the End Times stuff, that's not likely to change much.

Personally, I think it was all a big missed opportunity.

Combined profile ridden monsters - awesome, definitely what the game needed. Wait, GW, what are you doing? Stahp! Especially with the new 50% rule. No, 1000 point models in a 2000 point army is not a good idea!
New magic rules - nice idea, step the magic phase forward, reduce dependency on 6-dicing it... Oh, great. I'll two dice iceshard 10 times this phase then and not use the other 55 spells at my disposal. Not an improvement. Never mind no addressing items that break the new magic rules.
Rules for mixing the chaos armies - cool! With no restrictions or downsides or anything? Less cool. A min-maxer's wet dream. Awesome. But who cares about game balance? Not like anyone plays this game in any way other than to tell cool stories, right?
Progressing the setting, exciting revelations? Oh, looks like mortal enemies like the Tomb Kings and Vampires are bosom buddies, the chaos gods play along just fine (not to mention Khorne wizards!) and the elves have apparently put aside millenia of vicious conflict and are dancing through the fields holding hands. I guess I can forgive the first two, the undead are magically dominated and the chaos gods I guess are just cooperating ... but the elves? Bah.

Coupled with little care to making the rules clear and no FAQ support, it makes even playing the game with anything but a close-knit gaming group really hard. There's a lot of "this could have been good" and almost nothing that's actually good. Or even not terrible.

Voss
05-01-2015, 19:36
The structure of the TET merged lists clearly demonstrates a commitment to maintaining individual army books. Am I right in thinking people honestly believe that both TET and army books will immediately be replaced by a number of new books that contain complete merged lists?
No. Only if your concept of the future is for some reason a fixed point in time.


Brilliant example, thanks. Even on the rare occasion a book itself was invalidated, GW took steps to make sure those BT models remained entirely playable, an approach they've stuck to quite well for some years now.
In a new format that did in fact invalidate many people's armies, and sparked a lot of ire from angry BT players about how their army changed. (I'm not one of them, but you don't have to look very hard in the 40k general section to find unhappy BT players) Or hey, Blood Angels. Oops, invalidated army lists all over the place there.
So, of course a new format with new army list structures would be completely impossible after a massive fluff change for fantasy.


Or they could just not do that and keep the status quo, which evidently has something going for it as they wouldn't have created the army books + TET structure in the first instance. Does it not occur that this is it? These are the merged lists H&H foretold, and that this, what we currently have, is the future?
No, because it is never 'it' with GW. Supplement books pass out of print, new editions come, army books get updated and things change as the years pass, and things are superseded and replaced as the future keeps happening. Those merged lists will have to be updated or abandoned as soon as the first army book they reference is redone, because x, y and z become no longer valid or relevant, which is the very nature of an army update: if things don't change, there is no point in the new book.


You know full well what I meant: GW is not in the habit of invalidating models these days.
Shockingly, the discussion was never about models, but armies, army lists, abandoned supplements and edition changes.

Scammel
05-01-2015, 20:07
No. Only if your concept of the future is for some reason a fixed point in time.


So GW might do something different several years down the line. If this is news, we need one of these threads every week.


In a new format that did in fact invalidate many people's armies, and sparked a lot of ire from angry BT players about how their army changed.

I recall players of both stripes, but I forget what the army actually lost? Terminator equipment options or somesuch?


Or hey, Blood Angels. Oops, invalidated army lists all over the place there.

Not a single Blood Angels list was rendered unplayable.


Those merged lists will have to be updated or abandoned as soon as the first army book they reference is redone, because x, y and z become no longer valid or relevant

Considering it'd literally take a line in an FAQ ('Add 'Beastman Minogor' here') or perhaps the armybook itself, I don't see the issue. The merged lists are, if anything, more durable than the holistic approach some think is imminent.

logan054
05-01-2015, 20:17
Rules for mixing the chaos armies - cool! With no restrictions or downsides or anything? Less cool. A min-maxer's wet dream. Awesome. But who cares about game balance? Not like anyone plays this game in any way other than to tell cool stories, right?

What's really depressing is that FW managed to do a far more balanced version of the rules. Maybe FW should start writing all the rules for the game ;)


(not to mention Khorne wizards!)

Please, never mention it again...

SuperHappyTime
05-01-2015, 20:21
In a new format that did in fact invalidate many people's armies, and sparked a lot of ire from angry BT players about how their army changed. (I'm not one of them, but you don't have to look very hard in the 40k general section to find unhappy BT players) Or hey, Blood Angels. Oops, invalidated army lists all over the place there.
So, of course a new format with new army list structures would be completely impossible after a massive fluff change for fantasy.

Unless TET is designed to be a stand-alone "edition" that will have a special ruleset in 9th, much like Apocalypse rules for 40K.

Voss
05-01-2015, 20:44
So GW might do something different several years down the line. If this is news, we need one of these threads every week.
No. It could come Summer with a new edition, or at any random month starting in March or April with any theoretical new army book. And it will continue further into however long it takes to update all the books covered under ET lists. If it isn't addressed up front with 9th edition (and probably even if it is) it will be a persistent and continual problem from whenever they start doing non-ET stuff again to at least 10th edition.



Not a single Blood Angels list was rendered unplayable.
I can think of several permutations that were off the top of my head. Eliminating multiple troops choices and overloading the elite slot easily breaks existing armies, even if you take 7th edition multiple FOCs in mind, it is impossible to squeeze several army builds back into the new format. You must either bloat the lists with troops and HQs, or leave out things that were formerly taken.



Considering it'd literally take a line in an FAQ ('Add 'Beastman Minogor' here') or perhaps the armybook itself, I don't see the issue. The merged lists are, if anything, more durable than the holistic approach some think is imminent.
Wishful thinking. I think at this point you are making effort to ignore problems. Any army construction that is dependent on 4 or more sources (main rules, ET list, army list 1 and army list 2, plus in the case of chaos or elves, army list 3) has multiple break points if you change even one of the sources. It isn't a case of 'add changed name type,' but spell interactions, rule interactions (USRs or special snowflake rules from each book). Just FAQing the list itself is huge source of problems, let alone fundamentally changing one of the sources.





Have a Boarder Price army so no idea how it really effects me other than likely to have my list stomped on by almost any of the big ET stuff.
Region over-run, rocks fall, everyone dies. Mentioned in passing in Nagash.

Tupinamba
05-01-2015, 20:55
Iīve not only stopped buying stuff because of the uncertainty, but unfortunatelly Iīve also stopped painting my WHFB kind of because of the same reason (focusing on other systems for the time being).

Iīm absolutely hating ET, from the fluff perspective and equally from the rules perspective. Just read a review about the ET Malekith and it made me cringe. Superheroes gameplay is certainly not why I started WHFB and itīs not the way I want the game to go. The new magic phase is equally a step in the completely wrong direction, with more randomness and even more power. The whole impression I have is that ET is purely based on the MOAAR attitude. Itīs not enough to change the setting, it has to be apocalypse. The characters: Moaaar ultra OP craziness. Magic, moaar! Miniatures: huuuge. Yeah! THATīs what we all wanted, right? :rolleyes:

Iīm really puzzled at all the positive excitement as I was under the impression that people generally liked 8th edition and just wanted 9th to be the same with some tweaking. There were only very few armybooks left for updating and weīd finally have a fully updated edition, with reasonably balanced armies and fun rules that had a good wargaming feel about them.

Well, if thatīs what we wanted, how come people are so happy about the way things are going now? Itīs the exact opposite.:confused:

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 21:44
I would expect the ET magic rules to be what 9th edition is using overall.

If we start seeing cataclysm/end times spells forced on us in normal games it won't just be my wood elves that get canned, I'd be out of wfb like a shot. It's like foisting super-heavies in normal 40k except cranking the magic phase up to grossly overpowered levels holds no financial benefits for GW. It's not like they can sell a large plastic kit that is required to cast storm of renewal or meteoric iron clad. They'd basically be sacrificing playability for no benefit to their balance sheet. Sadly that sounds like exactly the kind of d*** move that GW would do presently.



Region over-run, rocks fall, everyone dies. Mentioned in passing in Nagash.

This is the other thing that bugs me with the end times, steadily obliterating everywhere in the world that isn't Athel loren or increasingly limited parts of the Empire or Bretonnia basically means zero creative options for setting your army anywhere outside of some very stringent guidelines. Marienburg has been destroyed, so my Empire army is currently homeless (or more likely just dead), meanwhile my wood elves are teaching their new dark elf bunk-mates how to hug trees. Destroying the border princes was especially stupid because it was the one place in the warhammer world you could literally do anything with to create whatever army fluff you wanted.

In Dark Trees
05-01-2015, 21:49
I sincerely hope they learn from the response to the End Times magic and we see some modifications. The magic system is not entirely without merit but in it's current state it's so much worse than standard 8th ed rules it's largely garbage. If 9th uses the Khaine rules without any changes that'll be a big turn off for many people including me.

Overall, End Times has been something of a non-event by and large in my scene. We toyed around with it a bit but then it was largely ignored. Mind you I play with competitive players so unless tournaments start adopting the End Times stuff, that's not likely to change much.

Personally, I think it was all a big missed opportunity.

Combined profile ridden monsters - awesome, definitely what the game needed. Wait, GW, what are you doing? Stahp! Especially with the new 50% rule. No, 1000 point models in a 2000 point army is not a good idea!
New magic rules - nice idea, step the magic phase forward, reduce dependency on 6-dicing it... Oh, great. I'll two dice iceshard 10 times this phase then and not use the other 55 spells at my disposal. Not an improvement. Never mind no addressing items that break the new magic rules.
Rules for mixing the chaos armies - cool! With no restrictions or downsides or anything? Less cool. A min-maxer's wet dream. Awesome. But who cares about game balance? Not like anyone plays this game in any way other than to tell cool stories, right?
Progressing the setting, exciting revelations? Oh, looks like mortal enemies like the Tomb Kings and Vampires are bosom buddies, the chaos gods play along just fine (not to mention Khorne wizards!) and the elves have apparently put aside millenia of vicious conflict and are dancing through the fields holding hands. I guess I can forgive the first two, the undead are magically dominated and the chaos gods I guess are just cooperating ... but the elves? Bah.

Coupled with little care to making the rules clear and no FAQ support, it makes even playing the game with anything but a close-knit gaming group really hard. There's a lot of "this could have been good" and almost nothing that's actually good. Or even not terrible.

I was going to post an extended rant about the manifold disappoints that have been occasioned by the End Times, but this post captures everything I was hoping to include. Sterling work.

If I wanted to play 5th edition Warhammer I could easily dust off that venerable, if hopelessly misguided, tome. I've seen what happens when you allow people to pump 50 percent of their allotted points into characters. And it isn't pretty.

Commissar Davis
05-01-2015, 22:56
Region over-run, rocks fall, everyone dies. Mentioned in passing in Nagash.

I am going to ignore that and have my small collection of towns by the Dwarfs and the sea survive.

ewar
05-01-2015, 22:58
Not immediately, maybe not even this year, but ultimately that has to be what will happen. The alternative is a storm of chaos style retcon, obliterating the End times from the timeline completely and pretending it never happened, in my view they have sunk far too much into it at this point to paper over the whole thing.

The writing is on the wall now for elves, at least tomb kings got a credible re-entry into the Undead army, the elf conglomeration was poorly written and it was clear the story was being contrived to fit the objective of merging the armies rather than arising as a logical result of where the story was going.



No, a rather irrelevent example, the space marine codex in 40k is unique in that game and wfb in that it contains rules for many different armies. Black Templars lost nothing by being filtered back into the space marine codex, the elf factions have lost their distinct cultures, a large percentage of their characters and two out of three homelands. If you're trying to claim warhammer elves are going to become wfb's space marines I don't think you quite understand what space marines represent to GW.


I haven't spent much time on the forums lately due to work, but trying to catch up now and have to disagree with you strongly here Spiney. For me the narrative to the end of the Sundering was done really well - someone had to win after all (although there is an argument that nobody won...), if it had just been ANOTHER stalemate that would have been a huge anticlimax. This way there is a plausible reason for the HE to adopt Malekith, the entire Elf pantheon is done in and the woodies play a key role in balancing the light and dark sides of the elf character. Seems like a very neat result from the writers to me.

I have a Wood Elf army that I have never played a game with as it's being painted from scratch. I will use the vanilla book for a while, as I have already had one kicking from an Eternity King list. The old ABs remain just as useable as they were and in all likelihood will remain useable for a long time.

Ultimately, I can't see any other route but to release an Eternity Elves AB, which will probably be Ģ50+ and contain a huge number of units. There is no way on earth GW is going to remove plastic unit choices for two of the most popular armies (HE, DE) and a brand new set of plastics for woodies within 2 years.

I'm sorry if just having to pick the WE units from a combined book takes away the character of the army for you - but that seems to be entirely on you as a player and not GWs fault. It's the same way I run my own SM chapter using Imperial Fist chapter tactics - I don't feel hard done by because there are black templar choices in there which I choose not to use.

OT The End Times so far has been amazing. The power creep on the characters is a bit annoying, as the Eternity King is frankly insane and makes Nagash/KF Ascended look like a massive pussy (and we were all bemoaning how OP he was only 4 months ago...). So fluff is a massive thumbs up from me. Rules are a distinct meh though.

Spiney Norman
05-01-2015, 23:31
I haven't spent much time on the forums lately due to work, but trying to catch up now and have to disagree with you strongly here Spiney. For me the narrative to the end of the Sundering was done really well - someone had to win after all (although there is an argument that nobody won...), if it had just been ANOTHER stalemate that would have been a huge anticlimax. This way there is a plausible reason for the HE to adopt Malekith, the entire Elf pantheon is done in and the woodies play a key role in balancing the light and dark sides of the elf character. Seems like a very neat result from the writers to me.

I have a Wood Elf army that I have never played a game with as it's being painted from scratch. I will use the vanilla book for a while, as I have already had one kicking from an Eternity King list. The old ABs remain just as useable as they were and in all likelihood will remain useable for a long time.

Ultimately, I can't see any other route but to release an Eternity Elves AB, which will probably be Ģ50+ and contain a huge number of units. There is no way on earth GW is going to remove plastic unit choices for two of the most popular armies (HE, DE) and a brand new set of plastics for woodies within 2 years.

I'm sorry if just having to pick the WE units from a combined book takes away the character of the army for you - but that seems to be entirely on you as a player and not GWs fault. It's the same way I run my own SM chapter using Imperial Fist chapter tactics - I don't feel hard done by because there are black templar choices in there which I choose not to use.

OT The End Times so far has been amazing. The power creep on the characters is a bit annoying, as the Eternity King is frankly insane and makes Nagash/KF Ascended look like a massive pussy (and we were all bemoaning how OP he was only 4 months ago...). So fluff is a massive thumbs up from me. Rules are a distinct meh though.

I think what finally did me in was Alarielle jumping into bed with the second most messed up elf ever to exist because clearly screwing Malekith was necessary to sort the world out, surely there has to be a level of kinky nastiness that no everqueen would sink to, not even in the name of making a new ever-child?

Getting that right after she somehow transfigured herself so that all the wood elves somehow think she is Ariel was a bit too much. So as a wood elf, my king and queen are dead, my champion has done a bunk, and all I have left is the queen of the high elves (who we somehow failed to exact bloody vengeance on for doing in our queen and stealing her identity) and a mentally scarred tree as my special characters. The characters that made the wood elf faction (Orion & Ariel) are gone for good, no more wild hunts, what even is the point in wild riders any more from a background perspective? Do they just ride around looking sad and remembering the 'good old days' when they had a king to lead them to slaughter their way through hordes of bretonnian peasants.

And it's great that the 40k background has scope for you to create your own chapter, virtually limitless fluff possibilities is one of the great strengths of 40k, those kind of niches don't exist in warhammer any more, if you hadn't noticed, the end times series has gradually obliterated every nation, city or tract of land where you could possibly set your army background to straight jacket everyone into GW brand fluff. I can't set my army from Tilea, Estalia or the borderlands any more because all those locations have been nuked from existence. I have a fully painted 3000pt army in Marienburg colours (blue, white and orange), but the city has been destroyed and my army no-longer makes any sense thanks to their campaign of total destruction.

khaine's court
06-01-2015, 00:00
Its a shock to the system but I think a good one. They are rebooting in some way surely. The changes are tough and I am not really satisifed with Khaine but at least Fantasy is getting some love! Its catering to the 40K players with all this heavy character bombardment, and I think it will, in the long run expand the influence of warhammer.

P.s. I was unsure about starting an Elven legions but thought the only time to try is now!

Voss
06-01-2015, 00:03
Well, if thatīs what we wanted, how come people are so happy about the way things are going now? Itīs the exact opposite.:confused:

Because 'we' is an illusion, especially on the internet. (especially on a dedicated subject forum, where most everyone is at least interested, if not stronger)
A variety of people have different opinions; if a forum gives the impression of a singular point of view, then its devolved into a fairly useless echo chamber, and doesn't reflect reality anymore.

Spiney Norman
06-01-2015, 00:11
Because 'we' is an illusion, especially on the internet. (especially on a dedicated subject forum, where most everyone is at least interested, if not stronger)
A variety of people have different opinions; if a forum gives the impression of a singular point of view, then its devolved into a fairly useless echo chamber, and doesn't reflect reality anymore.

Pretty much, if you view warhammer as a sort of role-playing wargame then the end times has been pretty disastrous, it's the ultimate rail-roaded storyline, if you are a high elf you have to move to athel loren and become a hiwoodark elf because the alternative is sinking into the sea with your former home. If you are a (non-chaos) human then you have to be from Bretonnia or the Empire because if you live in Marienburg, Tilea, Estalia or the borderlands you are already dead.

The rumours that are filtering through on the rumour seem to indicate that dwarf players are going to suffer heavily in the current book, basically getting the greater part of their remaining holds torn to bits by the skaven while the lizardmen faction leaves the game altogether in some kind of interstellar exodus. I'm beginning to wonder if they're not actually wrapping the whole thing up, they are running so many factions completely into the ground that playing fluffy in-universe games is basically going to mean running through the ET scenarios and nothing else.

HereComesTomorrow
06-01-2015, 00:17
This is the other thing that bugs me with the end times, steadily obliterating everywhere in the world that isn't Athel loren or increasingly limited parts of the Empire or Bretonnia basically means zero creative options for setting your army anywhere outside of some very stringent guidelines. Marienburg has been destroyed, so my Empire army is currently homeless (or more likely just dead), meanwhile my wood elves are teaching their new dark elf bunk-mates how to hug trees. Destroying the border princes was especially stupid because it was the one place in the warhammer world you could literally do anything with to create whatever army fluff you wanted.
I didn't realize that destroying a city means that all its current inhabitants die on the spot, regardless of where they are in the world.

Or that simply living in close proximity with a memeber of the same race automatically imprints all the racoal attributes, culture and knowledge onto whoever's home you're in.

Maybe I'm just not comprehending how little you're willing to bend fluff-wise? Do you get the shakes if someone has Chaos themed Ogre Kingdom armies? Does it take you several minutes to wrap your heas aroud the idea of a Skaven army allied with Empire?

Help me out here.

ewar
06-01-2015, 00:58
Pretty much, if you view warhammer as a sort of role-playing wargame then the end times has been pretty disastrous, it's the ultimate rail-roaded storyline, if you are a high elf you have to move to athel loren and become a hiwoodark elf because the alternative is sinking into the sea with your former home. If you are a (non-chaos) human then you have to be from Bretonnia or the Empire because if you live in Marienburg, Tilea, Estalia or the borderlands you are already dead.

The rumours that are filtering through on the rumour seem to indicate that dwarf players are going to suffer heavily in the current book, basically getting the greater part of their remaining holds torn to bits by the skaven while the lizardmen faction leaves the game altogether in some kind of interstellar exodus. I'm beginning to wonder if they're not actually wrapping the whole thing up, they are running so many factions completely into the ground that playing fluffy in-universe games is basically going to mean running through the ET scenarios and nothing else.

I think it's the exact opposite - it's disastrous for competitive play due to the ridiculous imba rules. But for narrative play it's pretty awesome - why does Ulthuan sinking prevent your High Elf Prince leading his household troops through the Old World? Why can't they be from the outposts in the southern ocean etc. Dark Elf players can continue to remain in Naggaroth to fight the Bloody Horde and so on, there is still huge scope for making whatever you wanted of your armies. I always have a bit of background for my armies, written or unwritten and it's not such a difficult task to adapt it. For instance I like to think my Tomb King is only bending his knee to Nagash until Settra returns and he can make his grab for power...

It's only limited by your imagination.

I haven't read any of the huge rumour thread re: skaven yet, so no idea what is expected in that book. But as all my factions are getting massive overhauls I guess I'll have to do something similar for my LM. I have a sneaking suspicion that actually some of the original rumours from H&H were more credible than I gave them credit - the 'sanctuary' talked about in Khaine and the references to the cycle beginning anew because the dark gods are unbeatable could be the actual end of the Warhammer World and a whole new start somewhere else with the existing factions as a base.

At this point I have literally no idea where they may go with things, which is equal parts exciting and terrifying, as I don't want them to ruin a game and setting which has been huge part of my life for almost as long as I can remember. Whatever happens, I would be happy with 8th edition if they completely lose the plot, so ultimately, what can we really lose?

It's easier to end up just fearing the worst all the time (gamers hate change afterall...), so I'm going to stay positive and if it doesn't turn out well I'll carry on as I am now, collecting 8th ed armies.

Liber
06-01-2015, 01:06
Or hey, Blood Angels. Oops, invalidated army lists all over the place there.
So, of course a new format with new army list structures would be completely impossible after a massive fluff change for fantasy.



So...we pretending that Unbound doesn't exist? Cause that's the only way your two examples of certain lists of certain space marine players being invalidated works.


I think GW has shown pretty clearly what direction their taking, and nobody should be worried about lists or individual units/models being invalidated. Not saying there aren't things to worry about, but not that.


Edit - I've said it before but I'll say it again. I think there is a good chance that the Warhammer world really is being closed. With finality. That we will be left with 8th edition as the core rules (and the armybooks) and ET to play out the literal 'end times' scenarios if we wish. So basically fluff/narrative wise becoming more akin to the LOTR table top game.

Kingrick
06-01-2015, 02:04
I'm pretty much the same, except I bought all the first three hard backs... I really wanted to give GW a chance with this, but as an older player I'm feeling more and more alienated by the destruction of the world I fought over for so many years. I don't understand the 'stagnant' setting complaints, after all it's just a setting. To me, it's up to the player to make their own narratives out of it. Which I will continue to do, but the End Times marks the point where my fluff now diverges from accepted cannon. I don't want to detract from the enjoyment of anyone else who likes the new developments but it is not for me.

To reply to the OP, my friends and I have stopped buying ANYTHING from GW, because no one knows what will happen with the rules in 9th. Even subtle changes to rules like steadfast, movement, combat etc have the potential to radically alter things like optimum unit sizes and troop choices. Who wants to paint tons of plastic that turns out to be unnecessary in a new edition?

Since I started playing in 5th edition I have been getting tired of seeing popular troops nerfed and weaker troops buffed at the same time, so that rather than repairing internal balance issues, they are in fact made worse (daemons anyone?). Is this done to drive sales? I'm not a cynic by nature but it's starting to look that way to me, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion...

I've been playing since 5th as well, and I agree.

SuperHappyTime
06-01-2015, 03:09
Going to comment on this since Kingrick brought it up. And I don't want to paint moar tonight.


I'm pretty much the same, except I bought all the first three hard backs... I really wanted to give GW a chance with this, but as an older player I'm feeling more and more alienated by the destruction of the world I fought over for so many years. I don't understand the 'stagnant' setting complaints, after all it's just a setting. To me, it's up to the player to make their own narratives out of it.

I see where you're coming from, but the complaint is wrong. The 'setting' isn't the big complaint. "A fantasy world gripped by a chaotic evil is coming... Whose side will you fight on?" No one has a problem with this that would ever consider playing WFB. The problem was with a 'plot' that was reset and then stagnated to a time before the plot even occurred.


Which I will continue to do, but the End Times marks the point where my fluff now diverges from accepted cannon.

Whoa, no need to bring an argument about Cannons into this thread.

But seriously? Is it the whole Malekith Prophecy thing? Really? Have you ever been on TVTropes? You do realize that right after "The Prophecy Comes True," the most common outcome is "The Prophecy was never about you"?


Since I started playing in 5th edition I have been getting tired of seeing popular troops nerfed and weaker troops buffed at the same time, so that rather than repairing internal balance issues, they are in fact made worse (daemons anyone?). Is this done to drive sales? I'm not a cynic by nature but it's starting to look that way to me, and I suspect that I'm not alone in this opinion...

Well, yea. GW is a company that wants sales.

But if balance is what is desired, you won't achieve balance if you don't nerf OP units and/or buff weak units. If you do only the former the format you will reach balance, but the format will be boring as no unit has any uniqueness, turning into M4, S3, T3, I3, Armor Save 6+ blah blah blah. If you do only the latter, you probably get powercreep (which Everybody loves).

So it helps to do both to balance.

Lord Inquisitor
06-01-2015, 04:02
It's only limited by your imagination.

That argument cuts both ways. That was true before End Times. You could play with dark elves and high elves if you wanted to and had some narrative campaign to play out. Most people didn't play that way though. Why do you need GW's permission to just mix your undead armies together? 8th ed rules even has mechanics for allies! Not to mention supplements like Storm of Magic or Triumph and Treachery or Tamurkhan (all of which I like and I think are way, way more fun than End Times) allow you to field mixed armies. Why is it only now that people think allied armies are okay? Because these all had some form of "opponent's consent" clause and End Times doesn't? That's really it, isn't it? Gamers seem to need GW's permission. Why? Because it would be unbalanced if they strayed from the prescribed game format, right? Which is fine, if we're assuming GW actually care about game balance. But clearly, with the End Times, they don't.

Why is this a good thing again? The fluff gamers don't need army lists to make narrative battles and for anyone who cares remotely about the game being balanced, it's as bad or worse than the bad ol' days of 7th with unbalanced books.

dwarf_zepplin
06-01-2015, 05:19
Going to comment on this since Kingrick brought it up. And I don't want to paint moar tonight.



I see where you're coming from, but the complaint is wrong. The 'setting' isn't the big complaint. "A fantasy world gripped by a chaotic evil is coming... Whose side will you fight on?" No one has a problem with this that would ever consider playing WFB. The problem was with a 'plot' that was reset and then stagnated to a time before the plot even occurred.
Fair point. Are you referring to storm of chaos there? Because yes that was a monumental tease to a lot of players.


Whoa, no need to bring an argument about Cannons into this thread.

But seriously? Is it the whole Malekith Prophecy thing? Really? Have you ever been on TVTropes? You do realize that right after "The Prophecy Comes True," the most common outcome is "The Prophecy was never about you"?

My bad! But seriously, is there a discussion about 8th ed that doesn't end in mud flinging over the fairness of cannons? :p
And yes that's an old trope. The malekith prophecy doesn't bother me so much as a dozen other inconsistencies with my older army books, which to be fair, are ambiguous enough to be interpreted as either setting up the End Times, or contradicting them... but that may be another thread...


Well, yea. GW is a company that wants sales.

But if balance is what is desired, you won't achieve balance if you don't nerf OP units and/or buff weak units. If you do only the former the format you will reach balance, but the format will be boring as no unit has any uniqueness, turning into M4, S3, T3, I3, Armor Save 6+ blah blah blah. If you do only the latter, you probably get powercreep (which Everybody loves).

So it helps to do both to balance.
Again, good point, and I am admiting that my cynicism may be getting the better of me. They do need to sell product of course, and no one wants powercreep, and no one wants op units or useless units. I just feel they could do it better, when I look at extreme examples like bloodletters, flamers and marauders being swept from the table and the sudden rise in gyrocopters, beasts of nurgle and so on. Of course, 5th edition was less balanced than 8th. But ET seems to be a step backward to me. I guess I am just old and jaded and prone to grumbling...

Voss
06-01-2015, 05:48
So...we pretending that Unbound doesn't exist? Cause that's the only way your two examples of certain lists of certain space marine players being invalidated works.
I know of zero people who would accept Unbound. And if I wanted 'there are no rules', I wouldn't buy a rulebook. Which is probably why I don't play 7th (well, that an dI refused to pay $70 for 10 pages of errata). Not that I could, given the lack of players.

But you're right, I could just throw a group of models on a table and decree it is a legal army. That couldn't possibly end badly.
It still doesn't address anything but the new BA codex. Not BTs, not Chaos Marines, nor Lost and the Damned, or anything else in that vein that has continually happened since I first had to rip hand flamers off my space wolves at the dawn of third edition.

Sorry guard players, your conscript circus with Cherenkov is still in the book, you just can't see it. Medusas, Colossi and Griffons? No, no. Those didn't vanish at all. Tyranids didn't get jerked around, and eventually got most (but not all) of the things that vanished back.

Nope, these things just don't happen in modern books. It is all long in the past.

No, wait. It does.


I think GW has shown pretty clearly what direction their taking, and nobody should be worried about lists or individual units/models being invalidated. Not saying there aren't things to worry about, but not that.
You'll have to explain what this clear direction is, because... wow I don't see it. Whatever it is.
It certainly doesn't involve lists and things not being invalidated, because that has been a constant thing for over two decades, with no stopping or signs of stopping.



Edit - I've said it before but I'll say it again. I think there is a good chance that the Warhammer world really is being closed. With finality. That we will be left with 8th edition as the core rules (and the armybooks) and ET to play out the literal 'end times' scenarios if we wish. So basically fluff/narrative wise becoming more akin to the LOTR table top game.
So... yeah, OK. Nothing will be invalidated, but they'll end the game. Right. That is a pretty clear direction all right. :shifty:

stroller
06-01-2015, 08:26
I have to throw it out there I am all over the place with WHFB now....for the first time in a long time I have simply stopped buying models/armies as I have no idea what is going to happen with 9th.

Why? Why not just get on with playing now in 8th? Or if you don't like 8th whatever edition you DO like?

End Times while totally amazing and great reading has raised more questions that answers about what 9th edition is going to look like. Does anyone else feel this way?

No. Idon't much care what 9th will look like. I'm playing NOW. When 9th comes along, I'll look at it. If I like it, I'll play it. If I don't, I'll stick with8th.

I mean do you build a combined Eldar army or is it going to totally change in 12 months and then I have all this painted plastic I can't really use........that is just one of the questions

I presume you need elf but... in 40K Dark Eldar, Asdubael Vect HQ choice disappeared in the last codex. I'm still fielding him using his old rules, and so far no one has objected, nor has the world ended.

What is everyone else grappling with??

Rolling dice better? Remembering to roll for animosity? Pretty much ignoring end times, so not grappling with anything really.

Jind_Singh
06-01-2015, 08:39
Everything changes but nothing changes...

Endtimes have been great for me for too many reasons...

1) Story line actually advancing
2) Model releases
3) Re-ermegence of Warhammer at my local GW store (was never dead but MUCH more apparent now)
4) Amazing collectable books

Yes there are things I'd prefer to see that haven't happened

1) More models for other races
2) More airtime for other races

But it's not stopped me from enjoying the new setting. I've played with, and against, legions of Undead and Chaos.

I've played the new Khaine magic

I've used some of the more tame special characters (Maggot lords and some of the Mortarchs)

I've had the new lore of undeath thrown at me

Is it all perfect? NO

But do I care? Even bigger NO

At the end of the day if I don't like elements I don't use them - pure and simple. I have the luxury of saying NO to people. But there isn't anything I've objected to so far - as by and far we know in advance what game we're playing, how we want to play it.

The issue would be for the walk-in games as if you haven't taken to the ET and a player comes in for a game with an Elf Legion, well that's bad.

But honestly speaking the ET have shone a massive spotlight on a hobby that was idling away in the background

Spiney Norman
06-01-2015, 09:23
I didn't realize that destroying a city means that all its current inhabitants die on the spot, regardless of where they are in the world.

Or that simply living in close proximity with a memeber of the same race automatically imprints all the racoal attributes, culture and knowledge onto whoever's home you're in.

Maybe I'm just not comprehending how little you're willing to bend fluff-wise? Do you get the shakes if someone has Chaos themed Ogre Kingdom armies? Does it take you several minutes to wrap your heas aroud the idea of a Skaven army allied with Empire?

Help me out here.

The Glottkin doesn't strike me as the benevolent conqueror type, I think it's fairly safe to say that whatever was in Marienburg before the end times began is now dead or rotting with interesting plagues.

A chaos worshipping OK is a cool theme and completely reasonable within the world setting, a skaven/empire alliance just shows a profound ignorance of Empire fluff and skaven motivation, it doesn't fit in the world setting.

If 'being creative with your army background' just means flat out ignoring the setting GW has created and coming up with your own, completely contradictory storyline then it makes me wonder why we are even playing wfb in the first place, it's not exactly the cheapest brand to collect, nor the best designed game out there.

Ratbeast
06-01-2015, 10:02
End Times has ruined warhammer for me, ill say with 40k, this whole wiping out the high elves home land, and all elves being jolly little bum buddies in athel loren has done it for me, they need to storm of magic this End Times mistake... yes advance the time line, a little bit, don't poop all over it like they have....

employed
06-01-2015, 10:50
I personally think that they could have done ET so much better. No one elf army got any new models. Why not a new tyrion, malekith, new heroes, a new dragonmodel? No nothing. I'm for progress in fluff. But they could have done it so much better on the elven side of ET. Now it just fells forced.

doyouevenrealisebro?
06-01-2015, 10:58
It interests me the different opinions on this subject. Subjectively I think that the narrative is always going to divide the community with some really liking it and others not so, like any written book.
As a dark elf player I do not like the idea of an eternity king list purely for the fact the aesthetics of the two other elf races don't appeal to me. However I enjoyed Khaine as a story and the rules have not changed where I cannot still just deploy a pure Dark Elf list. So I guess in a way I am ignoring End Times, but you can always find ways around it (for example it is perfectly plausible that a solely dark elf force forages out from Athel Loren to slake their desire for torture and murder etc.)
This leads me to my opinion about End Times, which we must remember is still mid-way through the narrative and have been told on several occasions that 'history will repeat itself'.

In my opinion the state of affairs that are happening now will not be reflective of the state it will be in once all the narrative dust has settled and to be honest I cannot see a future that will not end with a setting where all the races available now are not present and not very dissimilar to a similar midnight hour setting albeit with the geography and characters involved changed.

GW are out to make money. I truly believe that End Times is being used to re-ignite people's interest and perhaps leave things in a state of affairs where you are encouraged to own more than one army (allied lists etc.).
Of course there will be a shake up of rules, for better or worse, because either way they have to keep people engaged in the hobby.
I understand people's trepidation in what the setting will be like once the dust has settled but at the same time I do not think that Games Workshop will do something spectacularly stupid (especially since the quality of End Times has been of a very good standard) and alienate half the community and their existing models.

HereComesTomorrow
06-01-2015, 11:29
The Glottkin doesn't strike me as the benevolent conqueror type, I think it's fairly safe to say that whatever was in Marienburg before the end times began is now dead or rotting with interesting plagues.

A chaos worshipping OK is a cool theme and completely reasonable within the world setting, a skaven/empire alliance just shows a profound ignorance of Empire fluff and skaven motivation, it doesn't fit in the world setting.

If 'being creative with your army background' just means flat out ignoring the setting GW has created and coming up with your own, completely contradictory storyline then it makes me wonder why we are even playing wfb in the first place, it's not exactly the cheapest brand to collect, nor the best designed game out there.

So the idea that your army could be a Marienburg army that was away protecting trade routes, returning home to find it destroyed never crossed your mind?

Or that an Elector count might strike a deal with a skaven warlord in order to defeat a rival? Skaven will do anything to advance their status. As will humans. To say that the two will never work together is flat out wrong, as there s been several times mentioned in the fluff of humans hiring skaven. Not least of all a whole Gotrek and Felix story about it.

Kakapo42
06-01-2015, 11:59
I'm still largely in a state of disarray with the End Times series, although I've regrouped considerably since the start of it. The main things I've been grappling with are background, canon, and how I interact with the wider Warhammer community.



I don't understand the 'stagnant' setting complaints, after all it's just a setting. To me, it's up to the player to make their own narratives out of it. Which I will continue to do, but the End Times marks the point where my fluff now diverges from accepted cannon. I don't want to detract from the enjoyment of anyone else who likes the new developments but it is not for me.

This is pretty much my stance at the moment.

I think a great deal of it comes from my unusual position regarding Warhammer and the Warhammer community. Unlike a lot of people on here, I happen to be in the rare and considerably unenviable position of not really having a hobby circle. I'm not part of any regular gaming group or club - other hobbyists I know in person are extremely few and far between where I am, and the only club I am aware of is both almost entirely unacceptable to me (too far away for me to practically get to you see), and not really focused on the parts of the hobby that I get most of my enjoyment from. I've looked at creating my own one, but so far all my attempts have failed. There are equally few gaming stores I know of, so pick-up games at the trusty FLGS aren't really an option either. The closest thing would be the local GW store, which held quite some promise, but my insistence on using older rules - the 6th edition Wood Elf army book - makes that somewhat inaccessible too, for Fantasy at least. As a result my main point of interaction with the wider Warhammer community is the internet, which has coloured my perceptions on the community considerably.

Now, one of my main sources of enjoyment with Warhammer, both Fantasy and 40k (and indeed in tabletop wargaming in general) is background stories. I'm something of a storyteller at heart you see, and so as a result stories are extremely important to me. I often see the world as a collection of stories more than anything, and frequently refer to them in conversation, often as a metaphor for my point or whatever is being discussed. Not only that, but my brain (mind? Consciousness? Whatever you'd consider to be the net sum of 'me') tends to produce stories, or components of them at least, very often and largely spontaneously (a lot of them I actually find pretty interesting or entertaining - it's the main reason why one day I want to make TV shows and movies). So not only is a large part of my hobby enjoyment derived from the background stories, it's derived from actively engaging with them. I don't just read about Warhammer background, I create my own, and then share it with the world. After all at the end of the day stories primarily exist to be told.

And that's exactly what I did when I got into Warhammer Fantasy just under two years ago (another factor that probably influences my stance, I only got into Fantasy quite recently so the setting never grew stagnant for me). I took the open-ended setting presented to me into my own hands and ran with it, and ended up creating a very large web of interweaving backstories for the armies and characters I planned to get, my own personal corner of the Warhammer World with a collection of rich engaging histories (well I found them rich and engaging at any rate) and a diverse cast of colourful intriguing characters (again, to me at least). As well as, admittedly, more symphonic metal and later folk metal references than there are stars in the night sky (entirely because discovering those genres of music and promptly falling in love with them was a leading factor in me becoming interested in fantasy settings and by extension Warhammer Fantasy), but hey who doesn't like a good reference or shout-out. It was a grand epic work that I was excited to share with the world, so that I might entertain and possibly even inspire others out there, and it really took on a life of it's own as I ended up pouring more than a little of myself into it. It was my creation, my masterpiece, and I was very proud of it.

Unfortunately the End Times series hit before I could write all of it down, and because of a number of revelations and events in the End Times background my own background (which had it's own future end-game state) is fundamentally incompatible with. Altering my own background to include it is less than an option, because like I said I put a lot of myself into it and am thus extremely attached to it, which creates a situation of the unstoppable force of official Warhammer canon meeting the immovable object of my own bloody-minded stubbournness and sentimentality. The other obvious solution is to simply ignore the End Times background, and this is what I'm going with by default if nothing else, but it still doesn't sit quite right with me. Like I say, stories are important to me, so I tend to prefer to work with official GW canon wherever possible, and while I'm perfectly happy to bend, subvert, circumvent or otherwise work around the 'rules' of the background, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of outright breaking them. Still, the advent of the End Times, and my disagreement with much of the background contained within, has left me with little choice. If nothing else, I don't like the End Times series because, as Spiney Norman pointed out, it's an example of railroading, and I consider myself one of the people he describes who see Warhammer as "a sort of role-playing wargame".

Consequently my reaction to the End Times background, after extreme sadness, was anger, and I basically took my Warhammer background off the rails (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OffTheRails), not simply ignoring the End Times background, but confronting it head-on and actively working against it. I even came up with a story where my Wood Elf army finds out about the events of the End Times before they happen (one of them gets a vision of the future) and then launches a three-pronged pre-emptive strike that effectively stops them from ever happening. It has since become integrated with my internal canon, mostly due to a lack of any alternative I like better, but also because it sets up some elements and events I find quite interesting.

However, this is where my internet-coloured perceptions come in. As I said, a considerable part of my hobby enjoyment comes from not just creating these background stories, but sharing them with others (after all stories are there to be told), and now I'm afraid to do this, because my own ones go against the End Times background, which GW has explicitly pushed as being a fixed addition to the core Warhammer canon. Because of this I have grave fears that if I continue sharing my own background with the wider Warhammer community, it will get labelled as 'fan fiction', receive any attached stigma and then be ignored or (even worse) locked down as a result - I don't want to get hit with a deluge of "That's not what really happened you know" or "Nice fanfic, but actually it happened like this" or similar responses, and I'm worried I will be if I do share it. And if I simply keep that background to myself, well that's a considerable chunk of my hobby enjoyment gone. So I sort of feel trapped between a rock and a hard place now.

But that's actually why my Warhammer Fantasy interest has started to pick up again with the advent of ET: Khaine. Not because of the book itself, but because of the controversy it's caused. Because for the first time I've started to see considerable numbers of other people dissatisfied by the End Times background, and that makes me think there might still be a viable audience for my anti-End Times, GW canon-divergent background. For the first time it seems to me that the overwhelming popularity of the End Times background has been contested. It feels like there's now a dent in it's armour, a thermal exhaust port that I can fire a proton torpedo down, even if it's only a few feet across. It feels like the End Times juggernaut might not be invincible after all. Of course, it's still there for the many, many, many people that do enjoy it, but now I'm starting to feel like there might still be a place for those like me who don't. I no longer feel quite as alone in not liking the End Times now.

It's probably all going to come down to a few days from now. I tend to work on background at the same time as working on the armies it's attached to, so my Fantasy background has been on the backburner until very recently while I worked on my Battlefleet Gothic fleet. But now I'm back on Fantasy again, and so in the very near future it will be finally time to see just how viable my planned (mostly metaphorical) counter-attack on the End Times background will be - one final check to see what the level of demand would be like for my aforementioned End Times/GW canon divergent background, and if it looks like there would be enough for it, I'm back on track with my storytelling. Otherwise, well, see above regarding my hobby enjoyment...

Now that I think about it, my personal experience with the End Times background is eerily similar to the first part of Independence Day. First the End Times books loomed ominously overhead, then they destroyed an enormous portion of my interest in Warhammer Fantasy, and I was quite upset about it. Now I'm at the stage of getting the F-18s fuelled up and Will Smith brought up to speed. :p

ewar
06-01-2015, 12:52
That argument cuts both ways. That was true before End Times. You could play with dark elves and high elves if you wanted to and had some narrative campaign to play out. Most people didn't play that way though. Why do you need GW's permission to just mix your undead armies together? 8th ed rules even has mechanics for allies! Not to mention supplements like Storm of Magic or Triumph and Treachery or Tamurkhan (all of which I like and I think are way, way more fun than End Times) allow you to field mixed armies. Why is it only now that people think allied armies are okay? Because these all had some form of "opponent's consent" clause and End Times doesn't? That's really it, isn't it? Gamers seem to need GW's permission. Why? Because it would be unbalanced if they strayed from the prescribed game format, right? Which is fine, if we're assuming GW actually care about game balance. But clearly, with the End Times, they don't.

Why is this a good thing again? The fluff gamers don't need army lists to make narrative battles and for anyone who cares remotely about the game being balanced, it's as bad or worse than the bad ol' days of 7th with unbalanced books.

It's nowhere near 7th edition unbalanced. UL is basically on par with the basic books for HE, WoC, DoC etc. I haven't played against the Chaos Legion list yet, but I don't honestly see huge synergies that were not possible before in the individual books, just that the really annoying units like Skull Cannons/crushers will be even more ubiquitous. Beastmen got a boost which is a good thing.

The Eternity King list is the only real issue for End Times in my view, that thing is a monstrosity. But like I said before, the rules aren't the End Times strong point. Re-vitalising peoples interest, getting WFB talked about by the community and spreading the fluff attention around pretty freely (it's been a long, long time since I read new fluff for my Bretonnians) is generally great.

I think gamers generally just freak out at change (I'm no exception). When the dust settles we can either choose to use the new material or not, it's not the end of the world (unless you live in the Old World, Ulthuan, Naggaroth or the Worlds Edge Mountains. In which case you're ****ed.)

Wesser
06-01-2015, 14:24
So the idea that your army could be a Marienburg army that was away protecting trade routes, returning home to find it destroyed never crossed your mind?

Or that an Elector count might strike a deal with a skaven warlord in order to defeat a rival? Skaven will do anything to advance their status. As will humans. To say that the two will never work together is flat out wrong, as there s been several times mentioned in the fluff of humans hiring skaven. Not least of all a whole Gotrek and Felix story about it.

That's a weak argument and I hope you can see it yourself, because by that definition we don't need fluff or models at all.

A Marienburger army with no Marienburg is basically "The Army of the Living Homeless", and unless that's your team it's pretty much not funny.


Regarding the Skaven/Empire thing. I guess it is POSSIBLE for Thanquol to be declared Emperor, for dwarves collectively decide to go for a beardless look or for Lizardmen to skip the Old Ones and instead worship the Elder of the Moot. Anything is possible, but there's a limit.

Theocracity
06-01-2015, 15:45
That's a weak argument and I hope you can see it yourself, because by that definition we don't need fluff or models at all.

Way to jump to hyperbole. In the long term we're all gonna die and the Earth will get burnt up by the sun, so why bother with war gaming at all? :p

It's fun to make your own room within an established setting. That comes with the risk of requiring change when the setting updates, but that's hardly a unique problem. Just think of all the poor discarded fanfics that get lost any time a popular tv show changes its plot :p.


A Marienburger army with no Marienburg is basically "The Army of the Living Homeless", and unless that's your team it's pretty much not funny.

Cities get refounded after being sacked all the time. A Marienburger army with no Marienburg is a heroic reclamation waiting to happen - possibly with a diaspora story leading up to it. Think the dwarves in the Hobbit.


Regarding the Skaven/Empire thing. I guess it is POSSIBLE for Thanquol to be declared Emperor, for dwarves collectively decide to go for a beardless look or for Lizardmen to skip the Old Ones and instead worship the Elder of the Moot. Anything is possible, but there's a limit.

He referenced an actual BL book where it happened and all you have to respond is more hyperbole? Humans have made deals with Skaven in the background. As long as the story you write is internally consistent it's fine.

A Border Prince, in order to escape a life of slavery, promises to be an advance scout / saboteur for a Warlord. He and his army march into town, get the trust of the locals, then open the gates for the Skaven at night. Makes perfect sense.

HelloKitty
06-01-2015, 16:49
Nations fall. Others rise. The world moves on. So it is in the warhammer world. That is my opinion on it. I don't understand getting angry over the changes. And if one is writing alternate fiction then I would think one would not care what GW's version of the background is anyway.

To me, the combined lists is setting the community up to accept the fact that allies are going to be a thing again like they are in 40k, and like they were before 6th edition when you were allowed 25% of your forces to be allies.

If you do not want to run combined lists, I don't think anyone will be forcing you to do so. I don't think anyone wanting to run pure high elves is suddenly going to be unable to do this. Even if there is suddenly only one list (which I doubt will happen but who knows) you can still choose only the high elf portion of that list to use. Or dark elves. Or whatever.

I think instead the issue is that people will be running allies again that tweaks some who want the game to remain where you can only take from one race - but that boils down to personal preference and this debate / discussion has existed for years here and in other games (as ally rules already exist in warhammer under grand armies)

Maybe its that I came up on historicals and allies were always a thing there, or that I started warhammer fantasy when allies were a solid part of the rules already and people were taking allies and dogs of war units, that it doesn't bother me so much, I don't know. As to the fictional background moving forward, some people hate change. This is true on D&D boards where the new D&D edition moved some of its settings forward, this is also seen regularly on battletech forums where some people hate new eras or talking about new eras or the concept that there will be new eras.
To that I go back to "nations rise, nations fall". Things change in a world. I roll with it. :)

Exardus
06-01-2015, 17:32
I think that fantasy is like long forgoten child closed in basemant for years. And now father (gw) show up after long time and beat the hell out of him.

This is how I feel about ET champaign.

Lord Inquisitor
06-01-2015, 18:14
It's nowhere near 7th edition unbalanced. UL is basically on par with the basic books for HE, WoC, DoC etc. I haven't played against the Chaos Legion list yet, but I don't honestly see huge synergies that were not possible before in the individual books, just that the really annoying units like Skull Cannons/crushers will be even more ubiquitous. Beastmen got a boost which is a good thing. The Eternity King list is the only real issue for End Times in my view, that thing is a monstrosity.
Yes, the elf list. It's worse than 7th ed daemons at the height of their hayday. There are some insane builds with that list. The chaos legions list is also completely bonkers, the main thing keeping it down is that the elf list spanks it hard with the BotWD.

Four units of horrors around a herdstone. Triple chimeras. Double skullcannon. WoC daemon prince or two. You can even achieve a respectable Leadership bomb depending on how you stack items and spells. Blacked plate Troll hordes. Beastmen didn't get a boost - you just take the occasional character for particular items to make your WoC better.

And while I agree with the UL being the weakest, there's still some crazy stuff you can do. Quad terrorgheist is no joke particularly when you take away general crumbling being an issue.

The mixed lists are dramatically more powerful than the unmixed ones. These three builds form a clear "top tier" with everyone else languishing below - sounds exactly like seventh to me.


But like I said before, the rules aren't the End Times strong point. Re-vitalising peoples interest, getting WFB talked about by the community and spreading the fluff attention around pretty freely (it's been a long, long time since I read new fluff for my Bretonnians) is generally great.
That's not been my experience, but your millage may vary. As seen from this thread, many people have stopped buying or even painting models.


I think gamers generally just freak out at change (I'm no exception).
This is true ... but we've had the End Times books long enough to get used to the changes. I think most people have accepted the 50% lords, for example. And a lot of people who started 8th with great gusto and excitement have been very lukewarm on ET.

Personally, as I said in a previous post, it is not so much that I dislike change or even these changes. Most of these things are things that I would have said Warhammer actually did need. Make ridden monsters single profile. New magic rules that reduce six-dicing killer spells. Nagash returns, wow! Combined chaos armies. These all seem like good ideas. But they've been implemented so terribly, with clearly no consideration to balance or playtesting or even proof-reading the rules to see if they make sense! And the fluff seems like bad fan-fiction.

Yeah, it's got us talking about End Times but the majority of this has been "this is terrible". And it's got us much more worried about next edition than excited about it - if this is the direction GW are taking the game, it's not going to be a game I want to play. GW killed my interest in 40K with crappy rules for allies, little care for balance and introducing stupid units.

Tupinamba
06-01-2015, 20:56
Because 'we' is an illusion, especially on the internet. (especially on a dedicated subject forum, where most everyone is at least interested, if not stronger)
A variety of people have different opinions; if a forum gives the impression of a singular point of view, then its devolved into a fairly useless echo chamber, and doesn't reflect reality anymore.

While thatīs true in general, I think there was/is at least some kind of "we" within a specific forum like warseer. Most topics about Warhammer, 8th edition and future desires Iīve seen in this same forum gave the impression of a general liking of the system and the setting. Now the same community, composed of mostly the same people that posted how 8th was great (all the debates of 8th vs 7th for example), posted here how WHFB was better than Warmahordes (as a mass battle system with non combo based mechanics) and who activelly participated in the background discussions liking the WHFB setting are all over the place loving ET. :eyebrows:

I canīt understand this. Either you liked 8th game mechanics and the traditional whfb setting and game play, and hence youīd be upset about its complete destruction/radical change in gameplay (like I am), or you didnīt like it, found it "stale", without any "advancement" of the storyline, with clunky block pushing mechanics etc. and than itīd be only normal to like ET. What characterizes a certain game is exactly its gameplay and its background. How can people be indifferent to such radical changes and just say: "oh, people are just whining about change..." and "just adapt" etc.? If the changes are such that they totally change these characteristics of a given game, how can people that liked that game be so sanguine about it?

As to the supposed revitalization of fantasy I hear so much about, where does this impression come from? Just because artificially low level of stocks of the ET books sold out very fast, this doesnīt say anything at all about overall sales and even less about actual gaming frequency in the community. The whole notion of WHFB needing any "revitalization" is in itself very questionable and based on the wrong deduction that, because WHFB sells less in the US market, the game itself has some kind of problem (not GW sales policy, its marketing etc. but the game, i.e. its rules and background).

Voss
06-01-2015, 21:23
While thatīs true in general, I think there was/is at least some kind of "we" within a specific forum like warseer. Most topics about Warhammer, 8th edition and future desires Iīve seen in this same forum gave the impression of a general liking of the system and the setting.
Take a look at the last section of the post right above yours (sorry lord inquisitor, but you've got a lot of conveniently loaded terminology at the end there). 'We,' 'us' and 'most people' are tossed around and assumed to be true, regardless of how accurate it is. It may well be for some people, but opinions are not universal, and certainly not as universal as people using them to prop up their own opinions want them to be.


I canīt understand this. Either you liked 8th game mechanics and the traditional whfb setting and game play, and hence youīd be upset about its complete destruction/radical change in gameplay (like I am), or you didnīt like it, found it "stale", without any "advancement" of the storyline, with clunky block pushing mechanics etc. and than itīd be only normal to like ET. What characterizes a certain game is exactly its gameplay and its background. How can people be indifferent to such radical changes and just say: "oh, people are just whining about change..." and "just adapt" etc.? If the changes are such that they totally change these characteristics of a given game, how can people that liked that game be so sanguine about it?
Well, for one thing, you're conflating completely different topics. Mechanics aren't setting which isn't game play. Personally, I don't care much about Fantasy's setting, it's generic nonsense with completely flat characters. (And the ET books seem to be about uber characters vs incompetent idiots). On the other hand, most of the mechanics are decent, with a few stinkers. I can see ways to improve the mechanics, and it doesn't matter what happens to the setting. (though the proposed new 'reality bubble' setting looks to be even more generic and worse in most ways, which is impressive). But you can have any or no setting change and radical or measured mechanical change at the same time: they're two different variables. You can break the setting and tweak the rules, or break both, but they don't have to be adjusted the same way.

Most of the people I've gamed with in recent years don't give a damp frog about the setting. They just want to get a game in, and if they actually like the setting, they're perfectly willing to treat the game and the background as completely separate entities that don't really overlap much. Reconciling them is often nigh-on impossible.


The whole notion of WHFB needing any "revitalization" is in itself very questionable and based on the wrong deduction that, because WHFB sells less in the US market, the game itself has some kind of problem
No it isn't. Fantasy does worse than 40k in all markets, and in some extremely poorly. From a business perspective, that isn't good.

Spiney Norman
06-01-2015, 21:51
Well, the 'now for something completely different' thread in the rumour forum has given me a somewhat different perspective on the End times, it is not a stepping stone to a new edition, it's the last hurrah before burying warhammer for good. The answer to the question 'What happens after the end times' is apparently "nothing, it's the end, duh!" I guess it also explains why 40k is not getting an end times.

As far as I am bothered they might as well end warhammer now, the end times is nothing more than an attempt to wring as much money out of warhammer fans as possible before dropping them in a pit.

Montegue
06-01-2015, 21:54
It's not bad, either. It's still millions in revenue, and a lot of good will to **** away from potential customers. My interest in Mordheim got me to buy into Fantasy. My love of dwarfs in fantasy led me to an interest in 40k and the Space Wolves. When they pissed all over the game at the end of 6th edition my interest in 40k completely died (As did the interest of a lot of my local community). If half of the rumors about 9th are true, it will be really heartbreaking. I really love my army. So much so that I've now reconstructed an entire Dwarf army from scratch just because I'm a much better painter now than I was. If the rumor that we're being Black Templared into the Empire is true? So much wasted time and money.

Lord Inquisitor
06-01-2015, 21:57
Yep. They don't care about balance or sustainability with End Times because it is just the end.

I called it when End Times started. White Wolf did the same before rebooting World of Darkness.

But I don't know about dropping us in a pit. Warhammer will return by the looks of things. A reboot from scratch allows them a large amount of latitude to make a good game without being fettered to previous editions or even the model range. Could be good!*

*See? I really am optimistic about change most of the time. ;) Still think End Times suck.

Tupinamba
06-01-2015, 21:59
Well, for one thing, you're conflating completely different topics. Mechanics aren't setting which isn't game play.
(...)

No it isn't. Fantasy does worse than 40k in all markets, and in some extremely poorly. From a business perspective, that isn't good.

Iīve mentioned both, the setting and gameplay (and I disagree with you, as gameplay has very much to do with the mechanics), as ET is changing both radically. Also, I think thatīs the mixture of both that specifically characterizes a games system. Some players focus more on one aspect of the two, but the game is composed of both. Saying that the people donīt care for the setting is, at the minimum, an anecdoctal personal experience (as I know many that do) and Iīd go further and say that it is wrong.
The Warhammer setting is, if anything, even more important than the rules, as evidenced by GWīs sale of its IP for several kind of computer, board and RPG games, which royalties together make a significant part of their revenue. And their universe/background is a major difference to KOW, Armies of Arcana and other game systems, several of which are arguably better games.

The changes of ET to both, gameplay and setting, turned the perspective of what 9th ed. will be into a huge uncertainty (which is the first issue of the OP and also something that concerns me a lot), to the point of many veterans fearing that it wonīt be "Warhammer" at all any more. Unfortunatelly, Harry hinted at exactly that and the current ET developments show in this direction.

The point about fantasy sales is a problem to a certain extent. As far as I know, in the UK and many European countries WHFB outsells 40k. Has this really changed? Anyway, the two systems donīt need to have the same level of sales, as long as they are both profitable. I think that they appeal to different audiences and serve different purposes for the company and trying to make WHFB into some kind of fantasy 40k or, even worse, an alternative Warmahordes, wonīt work. Finally, if GW thinks that these game changing innovations they are doing will solve their pricing, customer treatment, ilusions of monopoly and other real problems with the company and its administration, theyīll be for a tough awakening. Iīm really curios to see next years sales report for whfb (not just for the ET books).

Lord Inquisitor
06-01-2015, 22:02
It's not bad, either. It's still millions in revenue, and a lot of good will to **** away from potential customers. My interest in Mordheim got me to buy into Fantasy. My love of dwarfs in fantasy led me to an interest in 40k and the Space Wolves. When they pissed all over the game at the end of 6th edition my interest in 40k completely died (As did the interest of a lot of my local community). If half of the rumors about 9th are true, it will be really heartbreaking. I really love my army. So much so that I've now reconstructed an entire Dwarf army from scratch just because I'm a much better painter now than I was. If the rumor that we're being Black Templared into the Empire is true? So much wasted time and money.

Being Black Templared is better than being Squatted. Really depends how much of the existing ranges make it into the new edition. Or are at least usable in a reasonable fashion ("counts as" if necessary).


As far as I know, in the UK and many European countries WHFB outsells 40k. Has this really changed?
Space Marines alone outsell the entire WFB range, and globally WFB has been losing ground.

Stuffburger
06-01-2015, 22:14
I think I can speak for a good number of people... I saw the mess of new, very expensive books, and the huge, zillion point, extremely expensive, (presumably) game breaking models, heard about the rather silly fluff, and decided I wanted nothing to do with the end times.

Voss
06-01-2015, 22:21
Iīve mentioned both, the setting and gameplay (and I disagree with you, as gameplay has very much to do with the mechanics),
I said setting isn't gameplay, you merged all three as one thing.


as ET is changing both radically. Also, I think thatīs the mixture of both that specifically characterizes a games system. Some players focus more on one aspect of the two, but the game is composed of both. Saying that the people donīt care for the setting is, at the minimum, an anecdoctal personal experience (as I know many that do) and Iīd go further and say that it is wrong.
Wrong? No. It may not be your experience, but its certainly mine. I never refer to 'the people' (which is absurd construct, one I specifically criticized), but rather the specific people I have played with.


The Warhammer setting is, if anything, even more important than the rules, as evidenced by GWīs sale of its IP for several kind of computer, board and RPG games, which royalties together make a significant part of their revenue. And their universe/background is a major difference to KOW, Armies of Arcana and other game systems, several of which are arguably better games.
Except... licenses are heavily on the 40k side of things. There are a couple of exceptions, but warhammer computer games are almost exclusively 40k, and successful ones even moreso. FFG bolixed WFRP badly, but did rather well with the 40k license. Chaos in the Old World was pretty decent, but matters more for the dual-brand Big 4 Chaos Gods, and knowledge of the Old World is entirely superfluous to the game.

KOW universe? Heh. KOW exists to sell cheap models for Warhammer. Just as warhammer started as a generic fantasy setting to have battles in.


The point about fantasy sales is a problem to a certain extent. As far as I know, in the UK and many European countries WHFB outsells 40k. Has this really changed?
Maybe last century, but I'd be surprised to find it was true in 94, let alone 99. 40k left fantasy in the dust long ago. Anecdotally, people say Fantasy isn't dead in the UK, but most still admit it isn't healthy.

Litcheur
06-01-2015, 22:23
But if balance is what is desired, you won't achieve balance if you don't nerf OP units and/or buff weak units. If you do only the former the format you will reach balance, but the format will be boring as no unit has any uniqueness, turning into M4, S3, T3, I3, Armor Save 6+ blah blah blah
That's how WAB works, and it's a pretty interesting game.

Back on topic, I feel like many of you. The lore has been stagnant for too long. But there's a huge difference between moving things and destroying everything. 7th ed killed 40k for me. EoT made me put everything WHFB-related on hold.

Sorry, GW, your games are way too expensive to be impulse purchases. Building an army is more like an investment. And I'm not investing in something that's running like a headless chicken.

What's the point of spending hundreds of [insert-currency-here] on bretonnians, dwarves or lizardmen, only to see them being erased from the setting in a few months ?

Voss
06-01-2015, 22:43
That's how WAB works, and it's a pretty interesting game.

Back on topic, I feel like many of you. The lore has been stagnant for too long. But there's a huge difference between moving things and destroying everything. 7th ed killed 40k for me.
I'm puzzled on this one. 7th is pure mechanical failure in army construction and the inclusion of very flawed Magic Phase from an earlier fantasy edition. The setting didn't change at all in the transition to errata edition.

The bearded one
06-01-2015, 23:47
Space Marines alone outsell the entire WFB range, and globally WFB has been losing ground.

Don't space marines also outsell the rest of the 40k range too? But then, space marine variants are almost half of 40k's range anyway.

Doommasters
06-01-2015, 23:56
Yep. They don't care about balance or sustainability with End Times because it is just the end.

I called it when End Times started. White Wolf did the same before rebooting World of Darkness.

But I don't know about dropping us in a pit. Warhammer will return by the looks of things. A reboot from scratch allows them a large amount of latitude to make a good game without being fettered to previous editions or even the model range. Could be good!*

*See? I really am optimistic about change most of the time. ;) Still think End Times suck.

I am with you on this............cross your fingers and close your eyes and hope you roll snake eyes :)

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
07-01-2015, 01:07
That's how WAB works, and it's a pretty interesting game.

Back on topic, I feel like many of you. The lore has been stagnant for too long. But there's a huge difference between moving things and destroying everything. 7th ed killed 40k for me. EoT made me put everything WHFB-related on hold.

Sorry, GW, your games are way too expensive to be impulse purchases. Building an army is more like an investment. And I'm not investing in something that's running like a headless chicken.

What's the point of spending hundreds of [insert-currency-here] on bretonnians, dwarves or lizardmen, only to see them being erased from the setting in a few months ?

This is why I just plain don't see these rumoured changes coming to pass.

GW knows full well how much time and effort people have poured into their armies, and they know full well that if you invalidate ALL of that ALL at once people will leave and not come back. Their business model is built around invalidating a PORTION of your army periodically and selling you new / reconfigured units to make up the difference. Ran hydras, black guard, and corsairs last edition? Buy Kharibdyss, executioners, and witch elves this edition. Skeleton archers and ushabti? Try skeleton warriors and necroknights.

With End Times they're trying to cross-sell us things from other armies, and I don't see why 9th edition wouldn't carry on that theme. It's what they're doing in 40k, and beyond the complete mess of army construction that they've made it DOES seem to help people buy new models. Armies are, as you say, and INVESTMENT. They take enormous amounts of time and effort, and starting a new army is a huge barrier. But if you can start it by buying a unit or two here or there to help with your "faction" army then all the better.

What is rumoured to be coming in sounds like just that - a "faction-based" ally system that is justified by the ET books. You have one "faction" with several different sub-factions, allowing you to either do a pure sub-faction army (as people have been doing for yeeeeeears with "black orc only" armies or "night goblin only" armies or "mono-god chaos armies," etc.) Now we'll have the same thing but with inter-faction armies.

This way when they bring out a fancy new unit (like mortarchs or blight kings) they have SEVERAL sets of generals to market to rather than a single one. Whereas when they push out a big release for a single army they're pushing models at just one.

And honestly, I think that'll be better for the game. Periodic releases are much more exciting than waiting 6+ years to get anything new for your army.

Lord Inquisitor
07-01-2015, 02:02
GW knows full well how much time and effort people have poured into their armies, and they know full well that if you invalidate ALL of that ALL at once people will leave and not come back.

Maybe they don't care? Even worse, maybe they actually want rid of existing gamers? Bunch of complainers that rarely buy any models. Maybe it is worth losing 5 old grumblers it if one existing gamer buys a whole new game and new armies to go with it? Maybe they just don't care when most of their customers are teenage kids who probably won't still be playing in a year?

The bearded one
07-01-2015, 02:08
I don't even know any "old grumbler veterans" who stand on the side, buying nothing by secondhand models while grumbling about how everything was better back in the day.

I'm in a club of 80+ people, and with about 11 or 12 years in this hobby I'm one of the longer serving players. But a collector's job is never done. There's always more to add. That's why there are people running around with 6k armies of multiple factions. I'm currently commissioning for a veteran who wants to get back in the game and bought a whole VC army in bulk in the local GW. 200 or so zombies. I don't know any 'veteran' who isn't still purchasing. I'm still purchasing stuff every month. I'm pretty certain I'm outspending little timmy who's saving up to buy a box of core troops every couple months - and I'll probably still be spending after little Timmy is done. Alternatively, little Timmy has grown up to become veteran 'Tim', consistently spending like me.

Vaktathi
07-01-2015, 02:15
Make ridden monsters single profile. New magic rules that reduce six-dicing killer spells. Nagash returns, wow! Combined chaos armies. These all seem like good ideas. But they've been implemented so terribly, with clearly no consideration to balance or playtesting or even proof-reading the rules to see if they make sense! And the fluff seems like bad fan-fiction. This seems to be a consistent and pervading behavior by GW.

They have some initially great ideas and implement them in the most ridiculous ways possible, often seemingly going out of their way to make them so. Playtesting and functionality are clearly not something GW has any interest in trying. There are *way* too many things that are plainly obvious on a first read-through by just about any player that have no business making it to print, either being absurdly abusable or terribly non-functional.

And yes, their fluff has been getting notably worse the last few years, painfully so. There's been a very marked decline from about ~2008 on.

With the newest rumors starting around of WHFB getting a complete rules and faction reboot, it'll either be exactly what is needed to revive Fantasy or kill it permanently, and my bet is more on the latter.

Voss
07-01-2015, 02:26
I don't even know any "old grumbler veterans" who stand on the side, buying nothing by secondhand models while grumbling about how everything was better back in the day.



Granted. The ones I know wouldn't waste money on second hand stuff. They stopped altogether... but they still grumble

sixfthoneybadger
07-01-2015, 02:43
GW killing WHFB is ridiculous. They have the lion's share of the market on mass fantasy tabletop wargaming. Why would they willingly just give that to another company??? Here Mantic, I (GW) hate money.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
07-01-2015, 03:24
Maybe they don't care? Even worse, maybe they actually want rid of existing gamers? Bunch of complainers that rarely buy any models. Maybe it is worth losing 5 old grumblers it if one existing gamer buys a whole new game and new armies to go with it? Maybe they just don't care when most of their customers are teenage kids who probably won't still be playing in a year?

I don't buy that for a second. A vibrant community is an integral part of any game. GW ignores the naysayers who complain about anything and everything online, and the tournament players who they view as "WAAC players who only play to abuse their game." However they DO value longtime hobbyist players. The sort of people who lovingly build and convert armies, and have expansive collections of multiple armies and many thousands of points.

You can see this in things like the End Times, which are at pretty much blatant fan service for longtime players. Combined factions exist to cross-sell existing players models from other armies, to make it easier for us to start collecting a new range. New armybooks are designed to make your last-edition force workable but not optimal, invariably rebalancing comparable units to make the lacklustre one from last edition the stronger option, while also encouraging us to buy exciting new kits to augment what we already have.

Why abandon that entirely and start from scratch, trying to build up an entire new player base? It's idiotic, and not going to happen. They won't invalidate our entire range. They might invalidate PART of it, or let certain factions slip by the wayside, but they will NOT make us start our forces over. Nor will they make us rebase them all onto round bases, or anything else stupid like that.

The game will change, perhaps even drastically, but as always we'll be able to use our old models....at least until we update our armies to make them more competitive in the new regime.


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Stegadeth
07-01-2015, 04:50
Maybe they don't care? Even worse, maybe they actually want rid of existing gamers? Bunch of complainers that rarely buy any models. Maybe it is worth losing 5 old grumblers it if one existing gamer buys a whole new game and new armies to go with it? Maybe they just don't care when most of their customers are teenage kids who probably won't still be playing in a year?

Do kids these days really possess the disposable income it takes and investment of time to buy, model and paint all of these models? Most of the guys around here that play Fantasy are 30-somethings.

Colonel Mayhem
07-01-2015, 04:56
My position on ET went from "cool, Nagash is around again?". I like Nagash as a counter big bad to the rather stale Chaos Gods. Then the next book came and I thought is was a bit harsh to kill all of Bretonnias knights and king in a conflict that wasn't even about their story and land. finally the elven book came and I went "WHAT! you destroyed Naggaroth, Ulthuan!" then moved all elves to Athel Loren and Malekith rules. That really pissed me of because I liked playing the good guys, granted they are very prideful and arrogant good guys, but good guys nonetheless.

All my stories and narrative battle reports concerning my Prince is about nobility and doing good, sprinkled with a hefty amount of arrogance(my prince has never lost a battle, him fleeing of the battlefield with all his trusty nobles on the first turn was a cunning manoeuvre:D). This is very hard to justify in the End Times narrative since I feel my elves have become tainted by the merger with the Dark Elves. Of coarse I could make him a rogue prince doing his own thing, much like Eomer in LotR.

But at the moment I have come to view ET as a side show to my Warhammer which is set before the End Times narrative began. Stuck in perpetual Status Quo, meaning Ulthuan is still around, my guys patrol the sea lanes and fight Chaos to save the world.



FAKE EDIT: After having written the previous possible explanation for my prince still being the good guy in Warhammer I have just changed my opinion slightly towards acceptance of the End Times narrative. It is after all a rarely used piece of storytelling when depicting the hero:rolleyes:

Pitalla Crimson
07-01-2015, 06:25
Currently, as far as I heard last, my Lizardmen are setting off for outer space. I am still buying models. As far as I know, the big dinosaur kits are still moderately popular and they did just release new models with our AB revision less than a year and a half ago. I know some people who feel like Lizardmen just don't fit the setting, and I get that to an extent. After all, they are way out in Lustria, they have a sort of pre-historic feel and lack of technology compared to the Old World setting of most of the other armies, and they are barely humanoid in both fluff and practice. Clearly, they'd be easy to cut out. I just don't see that happening.

The explanation of them failing and being invaded by skaven and demons sounded incredebly lazy in my opinion. Also Bretonia getting near destroyed seems like a lazy excuse to discontinue brets from the line.

I find this end of times very un-interesting and sounds to me like a fan fiction done by an Undead fanboy. "chaos literally everywhere and important characters and dieties everywhere being sacrificed just because"

Also Valkyia its such a terrible character "reading her book was such a waste of time, seriously terrible book"

Dwarf Longbeard
07-01-2015, 06:58
My position on ET went from "cool, Nagash is around again?". I like Nagash as a counter big bad to the rather stale Chaos Gods. Then the next book came and I thought is was a bit harsh to kill all of Bretonnias knights and king in a conflict that wasn't even about their story and land. finally the elven book came and I went "WHAT! you destroyed Naggaroth, Ulthuan!" then moved all elves to Athel Loren and Malekith rules. That really pissed me of because I liked playing the good guys, granted they are very prideful and arrogant good guys, but good guys nonetheless.:

I'm pretty much on the same trail of thought, I was really happy to see that big bugger come back but by the end of the book I was not impressed that the Tomb Kings (my second favourite army) had been basically wiped out.
To a degree I'm not a big fan of the combined list presented in the End Times, it is good to see something new but the mercenary allies bit from Triumph & Treachery showed that allies can be included in a game without having to merge everything together, though having some bonuses for having certain allies doesn't hurt either.

The End Times destroying the world which people have come to know for many years doesn't really make sense, the world had a lot of potential for staging a lot of campaigns and background everyone is familiar with, granted people mention about the background becoming stagnant which can be true but GW could easily have produced supplements which concentrates and introduces fresh armies (not everything has to revolve around the Empire vs Chaos) and it would have been a good way to reintroduce some of the old factions like Kislev.

I've found 8th edition to be a very strong well rounded edition, the main problem is apart from every now and again GW never promoted it, I wouldn't be surprised if some people didn't even know it existed. The good thing is with the way GW releases stuff nowadays players shouldn't be waiting for 6+ years for a new book, which is a nice little bonus :)

Liber
07-01-2015, 08:28
The End Times destroying the world which people have come to know for many years doesn't really make sense, the world had a lot of potential for staging a lot of campaigns and background everyone is familiar with, granted people mention about the background becoming stagnant which can be true but GW could easily have produced supplements which concentrates and introduces fresh armies (not everything has to revolve around the Empire vs Chaos) and it would have been a good way to reintroduce some of the old factions like Kislev.

This I have to push back a bit.

The Fantasy range is gigantic, with like 14 different armies to support. And guess what? It wasn't making as much money as the company wanted...or could afford to support.

Saying the solution would be to expand the range even more, making it even harder to support because that might increase sales is crazy, and GW knew it.

Voss
07-01-2015, 09:03
I agree with Liber, but another part of the problem was that too many armies weren't all that different, despite GW's desire to make each army feel distinct. Now part of this is a failing on their own parts (grave guard and tomb guard could have been more distinct, elffactions didn't need to be mirrors, etc), but other parts are a lack of long term planning. Over the years, the Empire ate concepts that could have been distinctly Bretonnian, despite the excessively broad non-specialized nature of the empire army list. Warrior priest (warriors of the faith), improvements to Knights (better armour for no real reason) and demigryphs really ate into the fantastical elements that would have suited Bretonnians better than the more down to earth empire army. And once absorbed by the empire collective, gw once again sat on an army concept they didn't know what to do with for years (wood elves suffered from the same problem).

Similarly the undead armies suffered from immense overlapped, but here gw tried (and failed) to force distinctions between them, both with rules (which yielded one undead army just being better than the other) and with inceasingly absurd and ridiculous models, like the snake surfers, and the gigantic unwieldy chariot things that got stuffed into vc. Meanwhile, vampires got a trio of rather good can kits, and tk got stuck with their lackluster light cav, which can't even perform the basic functions of fast cav due to the army rules.

Short version, support of the current armies is lacking in many respects. Some of the ranges still aren't even complete, others still have busted old stuff in metal, despite the failed finecast push. It's simply beyond their capacity

Liber
07-01-2015, 09:32
I agree with Liber


And I agree with you.

Really, combed your post to find something off but all 100% spot on IMO. :p

Wesser
07-01-2015, 11:27
Way to jump to hyperbole.

Sure, it is always possible to come up with a scenario for basically anything and make it sound reasonable. Elector Vlad and PK Malekith are examples of GW themselves explaining pretty absurd concepts.

The point isn't that it ain't possible for the individual gamer to come with something more or less farfetched to explain away problems. But for those of us who likes our army to be consistent with the fluff it's pretty annoying that yo have to come with some contradictory story line to have an excuse to be around.

Kahadras
07-01-2015, 12:19
Similarly the undead armies suffered from immense overlapped, but here gw tried (and failed) to force distinctions between them, both with rules (which yielded one undead army just being better than the other) and with inceasingly absurd and ridiculous models, like the snake surfers, and the gigantic unwieldy chariot things that got stuffed into vc. Meanwhile, vampires got a trio of rather good can kits, and tk got stuck with their lackluster light cav, which can't even perform the basic functions of fast cav due to the army rules.


I didn't really think GW needed to split Undead into VC and TK in the first place. I would have prefered them to stick with the gothic Undead theme. A 'pure' Vampire or Kemri army feels like more like a supliment book material.

HereComesTomorrow
07-01-2015, 12:36
Sure, it is always possible to come up with a scenario for basically anything and make it sound reasonable. Elector Vlad and PK Malekith are examples of GW themselves explaining pretty absurd concepts.

The point isn't that it ain't possible for the individual gamer to come with something more or less farfetched to explain away problems. But for those of us who likes our army to be consistent with the fluff it's pretty annoying that yo have to come with some contradictory story line to have an excuse to be around.

The thing is though, your "consistant" fluff is actually less consistant than the official fluff.

GW write the fluff. If they say the elves evolve to all have unicorn horns and poop rainbows after the End Times, then that is what elves do, regardless of wether you like it or not.

However, GW has always stated that the fluff is under the direction of the Unreliable Narrator trope. Meaning that what happens might not actually be what happened and this is where I'm struggling to understand your view.

You don't like End Time fluff, you like consistancy. GW itself says the End Times (or in fact, all of Warhammer) might just be a tall tale by a drunken sailor in a bar somewhere.
Nothing binds you to following the fluff, but for some reason you feel like you must.
You can just keep playing like/before the End Time didn't/hasn't happen, but you don't.
Even if you assume that all the fluff is 100% accurate, you choose to ignore previous example in the fluff of traditonal enemies interacting in such a way that isn't stabbing because they don't meet with what YOU consider consistant.

What I'm saying is that YOU are the problem, not the End Times.

Argive
07-01-2015, 12:45
This is why I just plain don't see these rumoured changes coming to pass.

GW knows full well how much time and effort people have poured into their armies, and they know full well that if you invalidate ALL of that ALL at once people will leave and not come back. Their business model is built around invalidating a PORTION of your army periodically and selling you new / reconfigured units to make up the difference. Ran hydras, black guard, and corsairs last edition? Buy Kharibdyss, executioners, and witch elves this edition. Skeleton archers and ushabti? Try skeleton warriors and necroknights.

With End Times they're trying to cross-sell us things from other armies, and I don't see why 9th edition wouldn't carry on that theme. It's what they're doing in 40k, and beyond the complete mess of army construction that they've made it DOES seem to help people buy new models. Armies are, as you say, and INVESTMENT. They take enormous amounts of time and effort, and starting a new army is a huge barrier. But if you can start it by buying a unit or two here or there to help with your "faction" army then all the better.

What is rumoured to be coming in sounds like just that - a "faction-based" ally system that is justified by the ET books. You have one "faction" with several different sub-factions, allowing you to either do a pure sub-faction army (as people have been doing for yeeeeeears with "black orc only" armies or "night goblin only" armies or "mono-god chaos armies," etc.) Now we'll have the same thing but with inter-faction armies.

This way when they bring out a fancy new unit (like mortarchs or blight kings) they have SEVERAL sets of generals to market to rather than a single one. Whereas when they push out a big release for a single army they're pushing models at just one.

And honestly, I think that'll be better for the game. Periodic releases are much more exciting than waiting 6+ years to get anything new for your army.

I somewhat agree with this and its a positive view point. I suppose thats one solution to the fluff storm.

But as a returning player I now decided not to buy any more whfb for the time being. Simply because there is a lot of speculation and a lot unknow veriables. This game might even dissaper or the RAF aspect might diminish. If thats the case I would look for an alternative war game.

I personaly like HE because of their fluff/asthetics AND battle ability. If all 3 factions were to be rolled into "elves" that would put me off. It would be the same how a marine player would feel if all SM chapters including chaos marines now became one book/army. Just dont like this idea.

Yeah I could just field HE untis... But knowing GW rules and such I assume doing so would come at a disadvantage in terms of battle ability not to mention a probable loss(over time) the full current HE range of models, which wont be avaliable give or take a couple years if things go down this path.

As some people have said I am getting back into this hobby and view it as a project spaning many years. Im a relatively slow painter but I will be painting every trooper and core foot slogger to a high standard. Now if I were to spend the next year doing that and then find my army will no longer own its distinctive identity I would be mightly peeved off...

The whole DE and HE now falling under one banner would be like thousand sons going for drinks with space wolves after throwing a imperial guard invasion. Its obviously possible as is anything if you use your imagination and should stay as fan fic... Then again thats a whole other story.. lol

Just Tony
07-01-2015, 14:45
This I have to push back a bit.

The Fantasy range is gigantic, with like 14 different armies to support. And guess what? It wasn't making as much money as the company wanted...or could afford to support.

Saying the solution would be to expand the range even more, making it even harder to support because that might increase sales is crazy, and GW knew it.


I agree with Liber, but another part of the problem was that too many armies weren't all that different, despite GW's desire to make each army feel distinct. Now part of this is a failing on their own parts (grave guard and tomb guard could have been more distinct, elffactions didn't need to be mirrors, etc), but other parts are a lack of long term planning. Over the years, the Empire ate concepts that could have been distinctly Bretonnian, despite the excessively broad non-specialized nature of the empire army list. Warrior priest (warriors of the faith), improvements to Knights (better armour for no real reason) and demigryphs really ate into the fantastical elements that would have suited Bretonnians better than the more down to earth empire army. And once absorbed by the empire collective, gw once again sat on an army concept they didn't know what to do with for years (wood elves suffered from the same problem).

Similarly the undead armies suffered from immense overlapped, but here gw tried (and failed) to force distinctions between them, both with rules (which yielded one undead army just being better than the other) and with inceasingly absurd and ridiculous models, like the snake surfers, and the gigantic unwieldy chariot things that got stuffed into vc. Meanwhile, vampires got a trio of rather good can kits, and tk got stuck with their lackluster light cav, which can't even perform the basic functions of fast cav due to the army rules.

Short version, support of the current armies is lacking in many respects. Some of the ranges still aren't even complete, others still have busted old stuff in metal, despite the failed finecast push. It's simply beyond their capacity

OR GW could work on expanding the customer base through marketing, advertising, brand placement in other media outlets, the like. Think of how much attention we would get if they paid a few hundred bucks to have them play a game of WFB or 40K on The Big Bang Theory. Sure, there'd be some trendies come in who only dabble in the new "it" thing and will bail, but there's just as much opportunity to get people who either weren't exposed or undecided to get into it.

However, GW's current market scheme is to get all of the current players to rebuy their armies or switch out to another army. With the rate of attrition of players vs. new player joining, I don't have much faith in this system working. Maybe with a price drop... Okay, back to reality, Tony...

HelloKitty
07-01-2015, 15:29
The price drop would have to be steep, as in bringing prices back to 1998 levels.

Voss
07-01-2015, 16:22
OR GW could work on expanding the customer base through marketing, advertising, brand placement in other media outlets, the like. Think of how much attention we would get if they paid a few hundred bucks to have them play a game of WFB or 40K on The Big Bang Theory. Sure, there'd be some trendies come in who only dabble in the new "it" thing and will bail, but there's just as much opportunity to get people who either weren't exposed or undecided to get into it.

However, GW's current market scheme is to get all of the current players to rebuy their armies or switch out to another army. With the rate of attrition of players vs. new player joining, I don't have much faith in this system working. Maybe with a price drop... Okay, back to reality, Tony...
How would expending yet more resources (and it wouldn't be a few hundred) on Marketing help them increase production capacity? Long term they might have more capital to eventually expand facilities, but more likely its throwing good money after bad.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2015, 16:36
However, GW has always stated that the fluff is under the direction of the Unreliable Narrator trope. Meaning that what happens might not actually be what happened and this is where I'm struggling to understand your view.

Errr I don't remember gw ever having said that, or anything close to it, I'm fairly sure you just made that up...


You don't like End Time fluff, you like consistancy. GW itself says the End Times (or in fact, all of Warhammer) might just be a tall tale by a drunken sailor in a bar somewhere.

Again where did GW say this, it strikes me as odd that they would undermine their backstory in an official statement, but a quote would be appreciated.


Nothing binds you to following the fluff, but for some reason you feel like you must.
You can just keep playing like/before the End Time didn't/hasn't happen, but you don't.
Even if you assume that all the fluff is 100% accurate, you choose to ignore previous example in the fluff of traditonal enemies interacting in such a way that isn't stabbing because they don't meet with what YOU consider consistant.

None of this matters any more, the fluff direction is irrelevent, the game dies in 6 months, the End Times is just GW trashing the flat before they move out.


What I'm saying is that YOU are the problem, not the End Times.

I suspect the problem is that you need to learn to debate without slagging off your opponents. If you don't like someone else's view point learn to do it politely.

Montegue
07-01-2015, 16:43
Maybe they don't care? Even worse, maybe they actually want rid of existing gamers? Bunch of complainers that rarely buy any models. Maybe it is worth losing 5 old grumblers it if one existing gamer buys a whole new game and new armies to go with it? Maybe they just don't care when most of their customers are teenage kids who probably won't still be playing in a year?

Since GW emphatically does not do market research, if they use this as their motivation they're doing so as a shot in the dark. They don't have any evidence to support the notion that they can abandon their current customer base in favor of brand spanking new customers that may or may not exist, may or may not ever have a conversation with the old customers, or may or may not ever bother to Google GW, Warhammer, read some forums and facebook posts and the like, and realize just how many ****s GW doens't give about their customers.

Ghachii
07-01-2015, 16:59
Errr I don't remember gw ever having said that, or anything close to it, I'm fairly sure you just made that up...

They've definitely said it about 40K, not sure about Fantasy. And since most of what GW says on this kind of subject is buried in 30 years worth of White Dwarf articles, you can't exactly expect someone to give you detailed reference.

At the very least I think it's fair to say that anything that's written about the Fantasy setting from a first person in-world perspective is an example of a potentially unreliable narrator - but since the End Times books are clearly written from a third person perspective I'm not sure it applies here.

boli
07-01-2015, 17:12
Have a read at the DE, HE and Dwarf books.

A lot of the same events just sometimes near completely different

Lord Inquisitor
07-01-2015, 17:52
I don't buy that for a second. A vibrant community is an integral part of any game. GW ignores the naysayers who complain about anything and everything online, and the tournament players who they view as "WAAC players who only play to abuse their game." However they DO value longtime hobbyist players. The sort of people who lovingly build and convert armies, and have expansive collections of multiple armies and many thousands of points.

You can see this in things like the End Times, which are at pretty much blatant fan service for longtime players.
That's a fair point. They've also had a number of releases that seem to have "nostalgia value" like Nagash, or even things like vermin lords or similar ideas that were dropped and then resurrected.

But I don't think these people are GW's core demographic, or who they see to be.


Do kids these days really possess the disposable income it takes and investment of time to buy, model and paint all of these models? Most of the guys around here that play Fantasy are 30-somethings.
Go into any GW in the UK. It's usually full of 14-year-olds with plenty of disposable income. Do they put together and fully paint all of these models? Who cares? As long as they've paid for the models (and often the glue and paint too!).

Now most play 40k and WFB has by-and-large had an older demographic. But still a big chunk in the UK at least are kids. Now in the US, that's a different story and most gamers are at indy game stores and at least anecdotally seem to be in their 30s - many of us are longtime players and some of us were annoying 14 year olds playing in a GW store once upon a time.


Since GW emphatically does not do market research, if they use this as their motivation they're doing so as a shot in the dark. They don't have any evidence to support the notion that they can abandon their current customer base in favor of brand spanking new customers that may or may not exist, may or may not ever have a conversation with the old customers, or may or may not ever bother to Google GW, Warhammer, read some forums and facebook posts and the like, and realize just how many ****s GW doens't give about their customers.
My understanding - and this might be TOTALLY wrong, it's been a very long time since I had any insight into GW's inner workings - is that GW assumes that its primary customers are transitory. They get boys in that age when they're old enough to play complex games and have plenty of pocket money but only have a couple of years before they discover girls. GW stores work hard to recruit people but lifetime retention is rare. No doubt GW isn't adverse to that, but not their primary focus. So recruiting new players constantly is their model (and it works, at least in the UK).

Now what works in the UK and what works in the rest of the world are two different things. Which is why GW seems so schizophrenic in this regard. In the UK they have done their best to kill the indies, elsewhere they have to actually cooperate with them.

I think GW don't want to get rid of their loyal customer base, but I don't think it's something that keeps them up at night either.

Voss
07-01-2015, 18:24
My understanding - and this might be TOTALLY wrong, it's been a very long time since I had any insight into GW's inner workings - is that GW assumes that its primary customers are transitory. They get boys in that age when they're old enough to play complex games and have plenty of pocket money but only have a couple of years before they discover girls. GW stores work hard to recruit people but lifetime retention is rare. No doubt GW isn't adverse to that, but not their primary focus. So recruiting new players constantly is their model (and it works, at least in the UK).

Now what works in the UK and what works in the rest of the world are two different things. Which is why GW seems so schizophrenic in this regard. In the UK they have done their best to kill the indies, elsewhere they have to actually cooperate with them.

Well, they don't do that either. GW-Indie relations in the States vary between actively and passively antagonistic. Cooperation isn't really on the agenda.

As to the kids, that is an interesting side of things. In indie stores here, the number of times I've seen someone under 18 (playing TTGs, CCGs, on the other hand, get a fair share of those) is really small (I wouldn't say mostly 30s though, more 20s/30s). And the few that I can think of is someone teaching their kids Warmahordes. Even years ago when I occasionally wandered into GW stores or attended Games Day, the lack of young ones was pretty notable. Which makes that recruitment pattern very difficult.

swordofglass
07-01-2015, 18:45
I wasn't in a state of disarray - I saw ET as a fun 'expansion' of sorts which gave some players the freedom to expand their armies. But with the Bubblehammer rumours now up and emphatically not being quashed or contradicted, I am at a complete loss as to what anyone is supposed to do here. ET encourages big spends - I have bought some Wood Elves to join my Dark Elves, and my friend has spent literally hundreds of ĢĢĢ on Daemons and Beasts to flesh out his WoC as well as getting the awesome new Undead models and starting a large Nagash army. Now the rumours are that models and potentially even whole armies may be unsupported in 9th, you can be sure I'll hold off on ALL further purchases until I know a lot more about 9th. You'd surely have to be mad to invest any more money into the ET at this stage...?

Montegue
07-01-2015, 18:51
I've been playing for only about 3 years now, give or take. But, I've been pretty prolific. I have met a lot of men playing like boys (like myself), a couple of very forgiving women, and exactly 2 youths under the age of 18 playing Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. It's not a kid's game, at least not in my experience. And this includes everything from local tournaments, campaigns, and house-gaming, to the USA Masters in 2014. Kids may play this game, but I don't see a whole lot of it in the US.

What I do see is what has always been a fairly consistent and persistent world, always there for people to come visit, play in, and then walk away from, only to pick up and come visit again. While the fluff may change from army to army, and the world may change a bit, it's always fairly recognizable.

This isn't. It's not going to be something folks can come back to after 10 years out raising a child tot he point where they might have a little free time again. It sounds like something entirely unrecognizable. There's not going to be an Old World to go back to anymore.

Let's do Legend of Zelda, but no Hyrule. Or, let's do the Forgotten Realms, but no Forgotten Realms. Let's blow the Forgotten Realms up and see if people who love the Forgotten Realms go along with us...and buy our new stuff...

HelloKitty
07-01-2015, 19:02
The key like with EVERY edition change is to not put emphasis in RUMORS and not worry about it until the actual rules drop. The rumor mill has always had a serious negative effect on people because we want to assume the worst. Then it goes from rumor to people believing it as fact. Then the rules drop and we find out its not that bad.

The rumor is that existing books will work with the new edition. There is nothing about entire swathes of your army suddenly not working anymore but that future releases will focus on core pieces of the army and the rest will come and go as they push them out like 40k does with supplements.

Things change.

When Forgotten Realms was changed people raged.
When battletech eras are introduced, people rage.

This is how people are.

The setting is going to change. No question. They are rebooting the game. I don't see that as hugely negative or something to get worked up about though.

I am especially not going to put stock in anything until I see the actual rules for myself.

Lord Inquisitor
07-01-2015, 19:03
Well, they don't do that either. GW-Indie relations in the States vary between actively and passively antagonistic. Cooperation isn't really on the agenda.

As to the kids, that is an interesting side of things. In indie stores here, the number of times I've seen someone under 18 (playing TTGs, CCGs, on the other hand, get a fair share of those) is really small (I wouldn't say mostly 30s though, more 20s/30s). And the few that I can think of is someone teaching their kids Warmahordes. Even years ago when I occasionally wandered into GW stores or attended Games Day, the lack of young ones was pretty notable. Which makes that recruitment pattern very difficult.

Well, my theory there is that GW policy is being made in the UK, and wiping out the indy stores to the point that for many towns GW is the only hobby store in town has been very successful. Many GW store gamers aren't even aware of other game systems! I certainly wasn't at that age, although there's a lot more games like Warmachine and Xwing these days.

That won't work in the US but periodically GW seems to act like it will. A guess to what happens might be that a regional controller tries to make things less hostile to indies, is successful, moves on to another job and then someone else fills their shoes and tries the UK strategy of throttling them again.

Stegadeth
07-01-2015, 19:42
Okay. After reading some of the recent rumors, I am indeed on hold. If Lizardmen are not in 9th edition I will certainly not be playing 9th at all. In fact, I would sell my Lizardmen for whatever I could get and move to a different, non-GW, Fantasy setting. After spending so much money on an Army, if it were not included in a new edition, I would never give GW one thin cent of support ever again.

Montegue
07-01-2015, 21:26
The key like with EVERY edition change is to not put emphasis in RUMORS and not worry about it until the actual rules drop.

That's not terribly wise. My normal process might be to expand my army now, but based on these rumors it's actually quite foolish to do so. If GW is going to Black Templar my dwarfs into Empire and eliminate my friend's lizardmen all together...you get the point.

The rumor mill has always had a serious negative effect on people because we want to assume the worst. Then it goes from rumor to people believing it as fact. Then the rules drop and we find out its not that bad.



The rumor is that existing books will work with the new edition.

They will be compatible, but not supported. So they'll suck.



There is nothing about entire swathes of your army suddenly not working anymore but that future releases will focus on core pieces of the army and the rest will come and go as they push them out like 40k does with supplements.

Tell that to Lizardmen players. Frankly, the Black Templar treatment really hurt a lot of players in the 40k Range, who loved their army. Now it's just a couple of rules in a book. I have almost 10k in Dwarfs. Probably 15k if you look at the unpainted stuff. And, it very well might just wind up relegated to special and rare choices in human army book.


Things change.

When Forgotten Realms was changed people raged.

And they didn't destroy it. But you know what happened to the Forgotten Realms in 4e? It sucked, and people walked away from it. When you radically alter a world people love and are creatively invested in, you **** them off and they seek greener pastures. The Old World might share IP concepts with a lot of different people, but it's a unique, thriving, very cool universe to tell stories in.

And now it's Bubble Fun Land.

The setting isn't merely going to change. End Times was a change and very popular. Destroying a thing isn't the same thing as merely changing it.

Vaktathi
07-01-2015, 22:09
The Black Templars really didn't lose that much, they gained access to a whole lot more new stuff. Much of what was bemoaned was stuff that was older edition and design paradigm remnants that wouldn't have stayed anyway even if they'd gotten their own book. BT's retained their unique troops configuration, still have the Emperor's Champion, still have all of their special characters, have a unique-army wide special rule, etc. They shared 90% of the same weapons, stats, units, vehicles and special rules as C:SM in the first place anyway.

Folding Dwarves into Empire would be a far more drastic change than BT's getting folded back into C:SM, and that I agree may be too drastic for many to want to carry over.

Litcheur
08-01-2015, 00:24
I'm puzzled on this one. 7th is pure mechanical failure in army construction and the inclusion of very flawed Magic Phase from an earlier fantasy edition. The setting didn't change at all in the transition to errata edition.
In that case, it's not about the lore, but about the system. 6th ed was stupid, 7th ed is... well... beyond moronic? :D


This is why I just plain don't see these rumoured changes coming to pass.
Feel free to replace "erased from the setting" by "being altered so much you don't care about them anymore". :D

Or by "Damn, they're grouping all three elven armies in one large boring blob. Are they going to keep all the units from the three army books? Should I buy Cold One Knights? Silver Helms? Oh, well... I think I'll just wait."

Shadeseraph
08-01-2015, 00:53
I guess they will try to reel old players more or less like this:

1) Old armies will still be fully usable (Albeit unsupported).
2) Army building rules will allow for alliances to the same degree than WH40K. That is: as much as you want.

This way, as long as people move to 9th they'll be able to sell a couple models through the allies rules, and, given the episodic nature of the new models, they might reel players into finally building a new army, once they've got a couple or three units.

Just Tony
08-01-2015, 02:21
How would expending yet more resources (and it wouldn't be a few hundred) on Marketing help them increase production capacity? Long term they might have more capital to eventually expand facilities, but more likely its throwing good money after bad.

Who said the problem was production? The problem is not enough people buying the models to make up for tooling costs. The problem is trying to resell stuff to the same gamers that already play the game, rather than doing everything humanly possible to get NEW players in the game. If labor and production facilities are that big an issue, outsource the model making equipment to some place that charges less for labor.

Vaktathi
09-01-2015, 01:11
Labor isn't really a huge issue with injection molded plastic kits, the sculpting, adaptation to production, and mold creation cost are going to be much higher than your variable labor costs, which largely boil down to packing and moving the mold from storage to the injection machine and back. Just creating a plastic kit really is the expensive part, once you've done that your variable costs are very tiny.

Honestly, the sheer cost of getting into the game, and the massive lack of any sort of public interaction on GW's part, are far greater barriers to success than any sort of production issues.

ShruikhanTK
09-01-2015, 02:08
Excited? No, not really. Base changes, Fantasy Marines, Bubbles, Army Squatting, IP everything (which means make a Dwarf...."like a Dwarf" but crappify it enough to IP it). Even if 1/6 of those things turns out true its really going to suck because we are losing something quite large. The least of which is basing....but what a pain in the ass thats going to be.

I invite you to join me in the 1 letter a week to GW, 1 for HQ USA because thats where I live and one for UK because thats home base. Hard copies no emails or phone calls I want that inbox flooded...you know if you like 8th edition...I will probably make a thread in General about this when I'm ready.

HelloKitty
09-01-2015, 14:12
I'm not rebasing my army. No one I know is either. I have decorative bases. I'm not destroying them to appease someone's OCD.

I still see people putting way too much faith in rumors and treating them like they are facts.

Pitalla Crimson
09-01-2015, 19:56
I am also sending a hand written letter to GW. This is shenanigans.
They live in their bubble with their hack creative people that think they are the next JRR Tolkiens. I mean if they are going to charge extra for their ****, then it better be very well damn written and creative.
Wathever happened to the people that used to do the stuff in the mid 2000's and late 90's? THOSE where quality books with creative things in it.

The way they are ****** the lizardmen without no explanation it's just pathetic. It just happened.
What about the God sotek? nope, rats and chaos come and wreck just because. Chaos, here and chaos there, chaos everywhere. Is it only me or does this seem way too one sided?
Also Valkyia it's the worst character ever, her book it's a barf bag. I would had been more than Ok with Sigvald instead, because his book it's amazing and he is a very charismatic characte
Anyways, I am going to write this letter but I just dont want to be alone on it ok? Does anyone have some sort of campaign or plan on this?

I am not rebasing nor selling my army. The way I see it, GW it's way too concentrated on screwing themselves with stupid decisions.
They are definitely ****** the Bretonnians, that's one sad possibility because I wanted to collect them too.

Emperor Karl Franz
09-01-2015, 22:33
The lack of an update for Bretonnians has really upset me, too. In terms of Warhammer Fantasy armies, my list of favorite armies goes like so:

1. Bretonnia
2. Undead
3-23. Armies which don't exist in Warhammer Fantasy.
24. Every other army (And I know that's weird coming from a guy posting under an Empire name, but I gave the Empire a legitimate shot as a substitute for Bretonnia, but they just didn't cut the mustard for me).

I really wish they'd at least given Bretonnians an 8th edition update before discontinuing them, so I could continue playing 8th edition with them, but I won't even have that. :( I'd like to write a letter, too. Does anyone have an address?

Lord Dan
10-01-2015, 00:06
The lack of an update for Bretonnians has really upset me, too. In terms of Warhammer Fantasy armies, my list of favorite armies goes like so:

1. Bretonnia
2. Undead
3-23. Armies which don't exist in Warhammer Fantasy.
24. Every other army (And I know that's weird coming from a guy posting under an Empire name, but I gave the Empire a legitimate shot as a substitute for Bretonnia, but they just didn't cut the mustard for me).

I really wish they'd at least given Bretonnians an 8th edition update before discontinuing them, so I could continue playing 8th edition with them, but I won't even have that. :( I'd like to write a letter, too. Does anyone have an address?
I strongly suspect that the armored, religious human faction of demi-Space Marines is going to be the next incarnation of Bretonnia. After all, the follow-up rumors indicated that the new faction would be to Chaos Warriors what Space Marines are to Chaos Space Marines - it's not that much of a stretch to think of bulked up Bretonnian Knights fitting that role.

EDIT: Furthermore, it would explain why Skaven and Beastmen haven't gotten an 8th edition book, given that Beastmen will likely be tied in with a 9th edition Chaos book and, if the End Times campaign is any indication, Skaven will probably be getting a 9th edition book of their own.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 00:33
From all indications, the human faction will be some kind of Empire/Bretonnia amalgamation. Who knows what shape it'll take, but the odds of it retaining all those elements I liked about Bretonnia without being infected with he steampunk tech of the Empire probably aren't that good.

I flipped through my copy of Khaine, and it's even worse. The Lady of the Lake not only turned out to be an elven goddess, but a goddess who was depowered and was staying to die on the Warhammer Fantasy world fighting Chaos. Without her the spirit of the Bretonnian army may as well have been gutted. No grail, grail quest, Grail Knights, blessings of the lady, etc. What's left that defines Bretonnia as Bretonnia?

Ramius4
10-01-2015, 02:51
Fluff changes aside, if they do end up turning WFB into anything other than a mass battles game... I'll be in my own bubble-world along with anyone who'd care to join me. 8th edition and all it's armies will be kept alive and well within my bubble ;)

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 02:59
Fluff changes aside, if they do end up turning WFB into anything other than a mass battles game... I'll be in my own bubble-world along with anyone who'd care to join me. 8th edition and all it's armies will be kept alive and well within my bubble ;)

I'd be glad to join you in your bubble, but sadly, GW never deigned to update my favorite army from its last army book in 6th edition. :(

Collector
10-01-2015, 03:22
By any chance where you also the same guys freaking out about this rumors who were thinking the world would end in 2012 for...reasons and in 2000 we would lose all our money because reasons?

They are not going to make you rebase all your stuff, despite all the hate people feel towards gamesworkshop and all that they just finished remaking all the models in finecast then plastic and ect. Also they are getting their website shut down because of a new whfb using the same system just new characters for putting them together "like in 40k allies". SOOOO relax guys it will be fine they will change small things everyone will complain and move on

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 03:30
Read the rumors. They're doing far more than that.

Groza
10-01-2015, 04:00
Fluff changes aside, if they do end up turning WFB into anything other than a mass battles game... I'll be in my own bubble-world along with anyone who'd care to join me. 8th edition and all it's armies will be kept alive and well within my bubble ;)
I wish there were bubbles like yours everywhere, but alas, not everyone is so fortunate.
I really am starting to get scared with how often I'll be able to play a game of 8th (or hopefully 7th) during the summer.
Even the people who would normally be willing to play older versions might have their hands full with trying out the new edition.

Ramius4
10-01-2015, 04:03
I wish there were bubbles like yours everywhere, but alas, not everyone is so fortunate.

Yeah, me too. I feel bad for you guys who might want to stick with 8th and end up without an opponent.

Lord Dan
10-01-2015, 04:07
Yeah, me too. I feel bad for you guys who might want to stick with 8th and end up without an opponent.

Fortunately, opponents or not, there will always be models to paint. :D

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 04:20
Thankfully, there are plenty of fantasy players here. I just wish that Bretonnia, my favorite army, had an update with plastic Grail Knights and Questing Knights. TWELVE YEARS I've waited, and nothing. Sigh...

And the especially frustrating part? They were probably the best fantasy army to create "Fantasy Marines", but GW never did that. Instead they killed off the Lady of the Lake, blew up the planet, and are probably making Sigmarite "Bubble Marines" instead. Double sigh...

Voss
10-01-2015, 06:19
Thankfully, there are plenty of fantasy players here. I just wish that Bretonnia, my favorite army, had an update with plastic Grail Knights and Questing Knights. TWELVE YEARS I've waited, and nothing. Sigh...

And the especially frustrating part? They were probably the best fantasy army to create "Fantasy Marines", but GW never did that. Instead they killed off the Lady of the Lake, blew up the planet, and are probably making Sigmarite "Bubble Marines" instead. Double sigh...
*Looks at avatar.*
*Doubletakes at user name.*

Its your own fault, you know. Your namesake stole too much of the Bretonnian identity, with your better knights, warrior priests , demigryphs and ability to have a wide-ranging army. Left the Brets with a sad little one-dimensional remnant. :D

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 06:31
Lol, yeah, I know my username's confusing. :P I came up with the user ID while I was in the middle of trying my best to enjoy the Empire in lieu of a proper Bretonnian release, but it's just not working for me.

Kakapo42
10-01-2015, 10:01
Thankfully, there are plenty of fantasy players here. I just wish that Bretonnia, my favorite army, had an update with plastic Grail Knights and Questing Knights. TWELVE YEARS I've waited, and nothing. Sigh...

Look on the bright side, at least the current Questing Knight and Grail Knight models look AWESOME (Well I think they do at least). :)

And that Bretonnian army book might be old, but it is incredible. When I first flicked through it it took all my strength not to immediately start up a Bretonnian army then and there. I have no plans to fully start a Bretonnian army in the immediate future (the not-so-distant or foreseeable future, on the other hand...) and I still picked up a copy because I was so blown away by it that I had to have one. :D

Lord Dan
10-01-2015, 16:37
The current Grail Knights look pretty much like KoTR. From a distance you can barely tell at all.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-01-2015, 16:42
I was hoping for plastic kits due to how horrendously expensive current Grail Knights and Questing Knights are. I'd kill for a box of 8 plastic Grail Knights for $35 instead of 5 resin Grail Knights for $75. That's what's stopped me from collecting a new Bretonnian army (I miss my old Bretonnian army. I should've never sold it :( ).