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Grix
06-01-2015, 03:11
So I went to a local tournament this weekend and while I absolutely found my list to have everything it needed to deal with what I ran into (mostly). I was unable to break into top 3 because of a couple rolls in game 2 and my inability to kill a Vampire Lord in game 3.

I realized while I don't have too many problems with RnF elite/non-elite infantry/cavalry I did have one major weakness. I have no one outside a champ who can deal with real combat machines.

The kit my Tyrant took was: HA, Enchanted Shield, Giant Breaker, Greedy Fist, Sword of Striking, The Other Tricksters Shard. So a 3+,6++ with 5 Str 7 attacks hitting anyone WS5 or lower on a 2.

He is great at killing RnF. But so are regular Ogres. But taking 4 wounds in one round of Combat by a Vampire Lord is not ideal. He did roll about average I guess but my Tyrant cant take that punishment. Neither can my BSB.

So my goal was to come up with a build that can tank a Vamp Lord long enough to be able to come out on top. I came out with 4 builds, if you can think of another let me know. If you see something wrong with my math let me know. Here are the kits + math.

Kit 1-- Tricksters Helm, Talisman of Endurance, ToTs.

Kit 2-- Gut Maw, Talisman of Preservation

Kit 3-- Gut Maw, Talisman of Endurance, ToTs

Kit 4-- Glittering Scales, Talisman of Endurance, Mountain Eater, ToTs


******************* Kit 1 ** Kit 2 ** Kit 3 ** Kit 4
******************* ** ** **
Hits ** 4.44 ** 4.44 ** 4.44 ** 3.75
To Wound ** 3.7 ** 3.7 ** 3.7 ** 2.49
RR To Wound ** 3.08 ** ** **
After Ward Save ** ** ** **
Wounds taken ** 2.05 **1.85 ** 2.46 ** 1.66

---------------------------Red Fury-------------------

Attacks ** 2.05 ** 1.85 ** 2.46 ** 1.66
Hits ** 1.81 ** 1.62 ** 2.17 ** 1.24
To Wound ** 1.5 ** 1.35 ** 1.8 ** .83
RR To Wound ** 1 ** ** **
Ward Save ** ** ** **
Wound taken ** .66 ** .67 ** 1.19 ** .55
Total taken ** 2.71 ** 2.52 ** 3.65 ** 2.21

-------------Wounds done / recovered----------

Hits ** 2.5 ** 2.5 ** 2.5 ** 2.5
To Wound ** 2.08 ** 2.08 ** 2.08 ** 2.08
Got through AS ** 1.38 ** 1.38 ** 1.38 ** 1.38
Ward Save ** .69 ** .69 ** .69 ** .69
RR Ward ** 1.03 ** ** 1.03 ** 1.03
Wounds Recovered ** ** .69 ** 1.03 **
Actual Taken ** 2.71 ** 1.83 ** 2.62 ** 2.21


Sorry for the horrible table but if my math is correct the most defensive build that I could think of with a GW is surprisingly was Kit 2. Followed kits 4, 3 and 1 in that order.

Maybe we have found a use for Gut Maw? My biggest issue with it now after seeing the math (which does not cover Terror Test BTW) is that I cant fit ToTs in without dropping to a 5++.

Sarael
08-01-2015, 06:09
A slaughtermaster with death magic works too.

Minigiant
09-01-2015, 20:30
A slaughtermaster with death magic works too.

Seconded

I have come to the conclusion that a slaughtermaster with death is OK only way of dealing with "uber"characters. As tyrants can only be built to take a beating which they eventually lose. Characters tyrants can beat will avoid him at all costs. So recent suggestions have been Tyrant on Carpet which uses 50% of his magic allowances and therefore decreases his defense or offense. He will be the general most likely so will be vulnerable without a bunker t hide in. Tyrants are not in a good place right now

rolly_321
10-01-2015, 11:18
Tyrants are just fine, maybe not as competitive as slaughter masters but that's to be expected since this edition's meta is magic dominant.

Anyway, he has uses but challenges isn't really one of them, largely because is Ws isn't high enough to be hitting reliably against the other uber combat lords and also because he gets no real racial buffs (unless you count being MI or impact hits) or added points allowance - like HE get ASF and vamps get bloodlines or whatever they're called which unlike big names come from a separate points allotment. If this was the days of the tenderizer it would be a different story.

Let the unit champ take the challenge and focus him on blending up rank and file models. 4+ ward, common magic 2+ attack sword and enchanted shield. 7 s5 attacks will mow through most infantry and he's fairly survivable with 3+ 4++

Add a butcher to his unit for the buff potential and hell heart shenanigans.

The French Guy
11-01-2015, 08:48
When I use mine, I give him +2A sword, Heavy armor+Ironfist, 4++ and The other tricker shard.
He usually have a +1F/E or Regen thanks to the LoTGM

Citadel97501
19-01-2015, 01:35
Personally I find Ogres only have 3 options for challenge survival. Be tougher than they can kill, be hard to hit, or stack traditional defenses. I usually just stack the defenses but here are my usual builds.
-Note: These are always paired with a Slaughtermaster wearing the Armor of Destiny + Dispel Scroll or Hell Heart, as it keeps him alive easily and the magical support is invaluable. I ranked them in order of what I find toughest to kill with the big bad on top.

Tyrant: T5, 3+ armor, 4+ ward, 2+ or 3+ to hit, Stubborn (Loves all magical support but mostly the Great Maw)
-Heavy Armor
-Enchanted Shield
-Talisman of Preservation
-Sword of Striking
-Crown of Command

Tyrant: 6+ armor/4+ ward save, -1 to hit, 6 attacks, WS 10 (Loves Curse of the Midnight Wind, and Ice Shard Blizzard)
-Glittering Scales
-Fencer's Blades
-Talisman of Endurance

Tyrant: T5, 3+ armor, 4+ ward save, re-roll successful wounds (Loves Toothcracker, & Wyssan's Wild Form)
-Heavy Armor, Iron Fist
-Trickster's Helm
-Talisman of Preservation
-Rock Eye

Minigiant
19-01-2015, 10:11
Tyrant: 6+ armor/4+ ward save, -1 to hit, 6 attacks, WS 10 (Loves Curse of the Midnight Wind, and Ice Shard Blizzard)
-Glittering Scales
-Fencer's Blades
-Talisman of Preservation


An illegal build unfortunately, 5 points over

rolly_321
20-01-2015, 05:43
Also, in my opinion glittering scales and fencers blades makes a far better combo on your slaughter master than on the tyrant. The ws buff is far greater, against most basic infantry the tyrant will hit on 3s anyway, the same is not true of slaughtermasters.

Seriously, you're better off sending unit champs into challenges. Our ogre lords and heroes just can't get the right magic item combos or abilities to go up against serious challenge lords from other races. What they do excel at is ensuring you get a ridiculous number of kills so you can break the enemy quickly, after which with M6 you can run run their general down ;)

Citadel97501
20-01-2015, 23:24
An illegal build unfortunately, 5 points over
Derp corrected, I was using a copy paste function instead of looking at my list.


Also, in my opinion glittering scales and fencers blades makes a far better combo on your slaughter master than on the tyrant. The ws buff is far greater, against most basic infantry the tyrant will hit on 3s anyway, the same is not true of slaughtermasters.

Seriously, you're better off sending unit champs into challenges. Our ogre lords and heroes just can't get the right magic item combos or abilities to go up against serious challenge lords from other races. What they do excel at is ensuring you get a ridiculous number of kills so you can break the enemy quickly, after which with M6 you can run run their general down ;)

I definitely agree that the hard to hit build works better on the SM.

Hgroves24
03-02-2015, 12:34
I use a tyrant with GW, gut maw, tal. Of pres., and dragonbane gem. He kills tyrion 10/10 times, karl franz 7/10, and he lasts forever and hes relatively cheap

Lord Dan
03-02-2015, 13:36
No Fencer's Blades/Glittering Scales combo? I thought that was a stable of challenge-oriented Tyrants?


I was unable to break into top 3 because of a couple rolls in game 2 and my inability to kill a Vampire Lord in game 3.
With all due respect, at least part of the reason you didn't break into the top 3 is because you're attributing your losses only to things that were out of your control - poor rolling, opponent's build, etc. Attempting to fill a void in your list is a great step, but the best tournament players I've ever met don't say the words "bad rolls" and are constantly asking themselves what they could have done better after a game (even victories). My two cents, anyway.

Scammel
03-02-2015, 13:55
No Fencer's Blades/Glittering Scales combo? I thought that was a stable of challenge-oriented Tyrants?

For Slaughtermasters, perhaps, but the Tyrant build mentioned at the very top of the thread (which I'm damn sure I pioneered :shifty:) is the norm. Tyrants just don't have the kit or natural special rules to really take on the cream of the crop, so the Greedy/breaker build tries to play to the one real strength he has - funnily enough, it's Strength. I can think of very few if any other characters that hit S7 without having to sacrifice the weapon slot, so the build tries to deliver as many of those as possible with defence a secondary concern.

Knifeparty
03-02-2015, 15:50
I use a tyrant with GW, gut maw, tal. Of pres., and dragonbane gem.

This set up is illegal, both talisman of preservation and dragon bane gem are talismans.

rolly_321
04-02-2015, 02:50
To be fair though the dragonbane gem is really an after thought item for that combo. Remove it and the build is cheaper, doesn't really loose any effectiveness and is more importantly, legal.

I've always found the gut maw too expensive for my own tastes, seeing as a denied challenge makes it redundant or a unit champ will only feed you one wound back while you've unlikely taken a wound from them anyway (so again redundant). However, in the new meta of increases lords allowance it might actually be a lot more viable now. I had basically forgotten about that item and written it off as too expensive to be useful. While I think the stats suggested against Tyrione and Franz may be a little off the idea is interesting now that there are so many more characters running around.

I still think in most games a Tyrant is better suited to slaughtering infantry though.Against many builds he will still struggle to get wounds though and thus he won't be getting enough wounds back.

Knifeparty
04-02-2015, 18:00
To be fair though the dragonbane gem is really an after thought item for that combo. Remove it and the build is cheaper, doesn't really loose any effectiveness and is more importantly, legal.

Not when you consider (normal) Tyrion has flaming attacks, who he directly decided to duel against. Tyrion has more than a chance of killing this guy without the dragon bane gem, and avatar of Khaine Tyrion would cut right through this guy like he was nothing. Even normal Karl Franz kills this guy more often than not when wielding Ghal Maraz, I don't know where the 7/10 times came in.