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View Full Version : Vermin lords, how good are they?



Ben81
07-01-2015, 20:56
Hi guys, I will be playing against a skaven player soon who is bringing a vermin Lord. I don't know much about them? Are they any good? What would be a good counter to them? (I'll be playing either warriors of chaos or high elves).

tanniith
07-01-2015, 21:57
In short, no. They're not. It's a monster that only has a 5+ ward save, no armor and T6 (maybe 5 I can't quite remember) to protect it. Bolt throwers or any ranged shooting will put it down quickly.

Spiney Norman
07-01-2015, 22:51
In short, no. They're not. It's a monster that only has a 5+ ward save, no armor and T6 (maybe 5 I can't quite remember) to protect it. Bolt throwers or any ranged shooting will put it down quickly.

I recently played a game against my opponents skaven with a vermin Lord, my mangler squig bounced through it on turn two and it died, it was pretty much game-set-match from that point on.

If using high elves bring a couple of bolt throwers and you should kill it before it gets into cc, with chaos you can outfight it very easily.

Coldblood666
07-01-2015, 23:47
The rule of cool dictates that they're much better with the new model.

SuperHappyTime
08-01-2015, 03:52
The rule of cool dictates that they're much better with the new model.

We're also assuming they won't get new rules with ET:Rat People

forseer of fates
08-01-2015, 04:33
Generally it never goes well if your a very expensive single model in warhammer, esp monsters. No matter what rules you have.

tanniith
08-01-2015, 06:51
Generally it never goes well if your a very expensive single model in warhammer, esp monsters. No matter what rules you have.

Blender vamp lords would like a word.

Sarael
08-01-2015, 08:06
As would WOC DPs and chimeras.

boli
08-01-2015, 10:49
You are paying double the points for a greyseer which you can't bunker up (protect) and its not that great in combat.

bigbiggles
11-01-2015, 09:30
It does d3 wounds though, so there is that...

Ben81
12-01-2015, 01:15
Not sure if the new rules still includes the D3 wounds?

forseer of fates
12-01-2015, 01:27
A few versions do, that does not make it worth it thou.

khaine's court
12-01-2015, 14:56
Engage your corruptor (ASF 5 attacks plus frenzy) in combat by turn two and it could be some messy business

MasterSplinter
13-01-2015, 12:10
Just play the FW rules for the exalted Verminlord if your opponent agrees - then it should be worth it. I would only do this if he fields KarlFranz ascended, Malekith, Imrik, Nagash or one out of this league.

Edit: Oh, justīve read that you are the opponent. There should be plenty of ways with highelves new chars but even classic options, chaos too, but i have no clue for them atm.

rolly_321
14-01-2015, 08:11
I think the verminlords can be absolutely brutal if played correctly. It all comes down to the signature spell skitterleap! Especially with the Deceiver.

-Hide vermin lord from artillery, should be manageable unless you are playing with zero or very light terrain.
-5+ (with re-rolls to cast) to skitterleap your vermin lord anywhere. ANYWHERE

This mean the likes of bolt throwers will likely never get a shot or get very few, and if they do they're at -1 to hit. Similarly against chaos he can always pick his combats, his ranged attack get better against units with larger unit frontages,which chaos often go for in 6 and 7s. End of the day, if he's in a bad situation just skitter away!

This guy is the perfect counter to:
hoards - skitter behind them for 10 S6, AP, poisoned shots + any other magic you use
artillery - skitter then warp lightning, shoot or charge following turn - I'm pretty sure he gets 3 shots here too since the crew would make the 'front rank' of the unit
chaff - he's more mobile and can munch them through range or combat
cav - he's attacks (ranged and CC) are -4 to armor
chariots - easy to line it up so you get the charge on them, no impacts to fear and again he will much them
monsters - again, you get the charge, again he generally munches them

just avoid charging units that are extra beefy themselves or that contain extra beefy combat characters.

UnsafeNormal
22-01-2015, 08:10
I think the best ones are the Verminlord Corrupter, the Verminlord Deceiver and the Verminlord Warpseer.

The Corrupter has ASF which pairs great with his Initiative, and the ability to reroll Plague which is a pretty big deal. I'd arguably say he's the best rounded for close combat of all the Verminlords.

The Deceiver has a nasty ranged weapon that will cut down hordes and a negative modifier to being shot. Being able to Skitterleap himself is also no joke, a Deceiver allowed to cast shouldn't be in much danger of being killed. In fact a well played Deveiver might be behind your war machines by Turn 2, ruining all your plans.

The Warpseer is personally my favorite. He has a 4+ ward, and the ability to kill most monsters in the game with the Orb. Your opponent is using Glottkin? Well toss him an orb and watch him be destroyed with no saves allowed, or hold on to it for the whole game for a better ward save!

The Warbringer is my favorite model by appearances, but there's nothing outrageously special about him that I can see to justify him having a higher point cost than the Deceiver and Corrupter. He's supposed to be the combat focused Verminlord, but he lacks the armor to back it up! I could potentially see use for him if you were running a high model count army (in Skaven terms) as Blood Frenzy gets better the more things you have that can use it effectively.

My final thought is that they are good, and played in the correct list they can even be great. I think a lot of what people overlook is the fact that they are reliable, which is a huge deal for a Skaven player. A Verminlord is not going to explode in your face turn 1, and that alone is worth the points for some people.

Andy p
22-01-2015, 08:15
By the way I notice they got the warpseer points wrong, or just different, in the ET book from the white dwarf.

TsukeFox
22-01-2015, 17:37
Skitterleap cannot be used on monster...whomp whomp

warlordbob
22-01-2015, 17:54
Skitterleap cannot be used on monster...whomp whomp

Apart from the Verminlord Deceiver, whos rules allow him to cast upon himself.

Brother Haephestus
22-01-2015, 19:06
Hi guys, I will be playing against a skaven player soon who is bringing a vermin Lord. I don't know much about them? Are they any good? What would be a good counter to them? (I'll be playing either warriors of chaos or high elves).
The problem with many reviews of the Verminlord is that we take this monster out of context with the rest of the army. It's the same as saying, "How good is that BLT sammich?" when you've just given me a spoon of salad dressing. Yuck.

My opinion about critters like this is to take it means I build my entire army around it. For example, the Corrupter would love some additional support from a Plague Priest to help reduce toughness before dropping Plague. Follow that up with Catapults and the like and the Verminlord becomes pretty tasty.

As a lone figure on the battlefield, well ... I think I would be leaning on playing it two ways:
1) Hide behind terrain and cast hexes and buffs.
2) Hide behind terrain, Skitterleap on yourself (Deceiver), and get in the back field and cause problems.

Taking it down will be easy: Concentrate all fire on that superstar destroyer! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW_hGOFukMQ) Low saves and a strong shooting force could take it off the field before the game even begins. This recent game I played against Chaos Dwarfs had my Hell Pit pulling off the table before we got out of shooting phase turn 1. Yay.


By the way I notice they got the warpseer points wrong, or just different, in the ET book from the white dwarf.You are right Andy. The build pamphlet inside the model has a different points cost as well.

TsukeFox
23-01-2015, 02:41
Apart from the Verminlord Deceiver, whos rules allow him to cast upon himself.
Sayyy whaaat?
Hail the Horned Rat!
Wow
wow that is game changing

Rudra34
23-01-2015, 06:15
Yeah, it's a huge boost for the old vermin lord. I used the deceiver in a game last and was quite pleased. After getting skitterleap off once, my opponent saved dice in every magic phase to keep me from getting it off again.

They all have potential, but are situational. I think that if you want to use one in your army then you should, but don't be afraid when you play against them. Weird...it's almost as if they are well-balanced :)

Nubl0
23-01-2015, 14:37
I feel the best ones are the deceiver and corrupter to be honest. The warbirnger is kinda scary in combat, but his spell specialty is pretty poor. Warpseer is also pretty good, funny enough I actually think the worst one is verminking.

benvoliothefirst
23-01-2015, 14:44
What an unbelievable difference from the first few replies in this thread to the last couple. Great ideas gents!

Imperator64
25-01-2015, 23:21
I'll be building mine as the warpseer. It looks the best and a 4++, d3wound dealing monster that always inflicts 6 hits with warplightning and has a brass orb for added funwill definitely have its uses.

Rudra34
26-01-2015, 08:59
Got a second game with the deceiver, and I still love it. In the first game he was effective, but died to massive wood elf shooting. This time I was against wood elves again, but stayed out of their range until it was time to strike. The elves spent half the game chasing him as he jumped around casting spells, shooting, and fighting in key combats. The versatility is huge. I think the deceiver will become very popular.

thrawn
26-01-2015, 23:45
Blender vamp lords would like a word.

a blender lord can hide in a unit.


As would WOC DPs and chimeras.

they die relatively easy to cannons/bolt throwers and magic missiles in our games. if you play them right you can hide your DP behind the chimeras so you can get him into combar, but it's inevitable some will die before they make it into combat.

thrawn
26-01-2015, 23:47
Got a second game with the deceiver, and I still love it. In the first game he was effective, but died to massive wood elf shooting. This time I was against wood elves again, but stayed out of their range until it was time to strike. The elves spent half the game chasing him as he jumped around casting spells, shooting, and fighting in key combats. The versatility is huge. I think the deceiver will become very popular.

yes I agree, if I were to pick one i'd take the deceiver just because he has a shooting attack and cast warp himself around the battle field. my next choice would be the warpseer as he's got a 4++, can caste a better warp lightning and can at least have one shooting attack in the game when he needs it.

oh ya, and i also think the vermin king is the worst, just cause he's so much more points.

Headsplitta
10-08-2015, 03:27
Is the generic non ET versions can be used efficiently? We do not allow ET in my local gaming group unless it has been agreed before the game by all players!

Wesser
10-08-2015, 08:51
Is the generic non ET versions can be used efficiently? We do not allow ET in my local gaming group unless it has been agreed before the game by all players!

Not really. He's an ideal target for shooting (especially since most of the Skaven army ain't) and is vulnerable to everything. In short he does not do anything a Hellpit/Grey Seer don't do better for the same level of points, which is why he's never seen outside some specific comps that encourage him.

Personally I always found the Vermin Lord out of place in a Skaven force, so he's one of fairly few units we've made no effort to houserule in my gaming group. My group don't allow ET either, but in regards to individual units or characters it's pretty easy to make exceptions.

Headsplitta
10-08-2015, 11:38
As the Skaven did not get a new army book during 8th, what would be a fair price for him? Considering how easy cannon and other can pick him off.

bigbiggles
10-08-2015, 16:30
I would just use the end times one. +1 toughness and wound and good at 1 skaven spell for same points. Otherwise...I guess you could knock off like 100 points from the old one

NpSkully
03-09-2015, 13:41
The new verminlords aren't bad, the main problem is that they are *********** HUEG! However, if I can get my bloodthirster of insensate rage to rack up 800 points in a triumph and treachery game, then you should be able to get the verminlords to perform reasonably well. They are both kinda squishy, but they both should have equal toughness, wounds and save. But yeah, use skitterleap and your 8 or 6 inch move or whatever to motor them towards where they need to go. Countering them would go for lore of light with high elves and try to get banishment and/or shems gaze. Warriors... Would probably try to lower movement and speed with lore of slannesh or nurgle to lower toughness, and have something big and flying to chase it

Captain Idaho
03-09-2015, 17:46
If cannons only did half strength and D3 wounds on a bouncing shot, things like Vermin Lords and Griffins etc would be great includes for their costs. However, I think with a good selection of terrain, you can make some good use of a character like a Vermin Lord.

I say take one and not a Grey Seer. That way it ain't as expensive as you think.

Also, remember that Skaven are soooo cheap that an expensive models doesn't compromise the army balance like a Star Dragon might.

Wesser
04-09-2015, 12:58
If cannons only did half strength and D3 wounds on a bouncing shot, things like Vermin Lords and Griffins etc would be great includes for their costs. However, I think with a good selection of terrain, you can make some good use of a character like a Vermin Lord.

I say take one and not a Grey Seer. That way it ain't as expensive as you think.

Also, remember that Skaven are soooo cheap that an expensive models doesn't compromise the army balance like a Star Dragon might.

Problem is that Vermin Lords come out of Lord allowance and can't be the general, so even in 3000 pts. game you'll only be able to afford a modestly equipped Warlord for that all-important LD7. Considering the limitations of Plague Priests and Warlock engineers most of the magic phase will also rest with him.

Taking a Vermin Lord limits your options for Generals and it puts most of your magic phase in a vulnerable package. The 500 pts price-tag is thus only part of his problem...