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Darnok
16-01-2015, 19:52
Basically: what are the "strongest" and "weakest" things from the current O&G book? Both in terms of "what do I REALLY want to have in my army" to "what are the weaknesses I can exploit on the other side of the table?" - so opinions from both O&G players and opponents are appreciated.

Mutter
16-01-2015, 20:05
Stuff I consider really strong:
- Savage orc big'uns with two hand weapons; even better if with the 5++ from a shaman - a horde of those will tear through almost anything
- Manglers; great and cheap damage dealer that not all armies can easily get rid off
- Doom divers; excellent warmachines, among the best in the game
- Trolls; if you can supply them with leadership, a big block of them is nasty
- Orc magic

sephiroth87
17-01-2015, 02:23
Depends. I think the old troll/savage big uns w/ additional hand weapon/night goblin army is pretty dead. The meta caught up with it and elf-type armies just wipe it out with strike first and phoenixes. Chaos and undead now do it better in hand to hand. The best way to play the army in my opinion, at least until we get new rules or a new book, is to play it as a dwarf army painted green. Castle up, take war machines, kill fast cav with doom divers, and use Foot of Gork to whittle down scary or fast units so that the bows, fanatics, and war machines can finish what's left.

Also, from 1D4Chan.com. I added onto someone else's work and other people have added/changed stuff of mine:

How Does The Army Play?

The Orc and Goblin army plays a little differently than you'd expect. The main thing that you'll see across almost all O&G armies is 2-3 pretty big blocks of troops backed up by lots of chaff units and war machines. The army works best by softening up the opponent with shooting and magic while using chaff units to hold up/redirect big units and assassinate war machine hunters. Once the opponent's war machine hunters are dead, the O&G player picks his/her combats by using redirectors (wolf riders, heroes on wolves), board denial units (pumpwagons, manglers), and countercharging the units that were weakened with shooting and magic. This changes depending on the opponent's army, but you'll usually see variations on this strategy.


Typical Things You'll Usually See in a Competitive List

Savage Orc Big 'Uns (30+) with Savage Shaman (and Lucky Shrunken Head)
Big troll blocks, usually 8 or more
Rock Lobbas and Doom Divers
Maxed Mangler Squigs
Big Night Goblin Units (50+) with netters, sometimes with several cheap night goblin heroes toting great weapons
Goblin bigbosses on wolves as chaff units and war machine hunters
Multiple magic levels (usually a mix of big and little waaagh! lores)
Black orc giving quell animosity to the magic user's unit and a BSB giving rerolls
Pump wagons and wolf chariots

Tips for Playing Orcs & Goblins

1. Orcs & Goblins is one of the only armies where their special rule is a drawback. Elves get always strikes first, daemons get ward saves, and O&G get...animosity. Thanks, Mat Ward. We also fear elves, which is just icing on the cake. It's almost like they want O&G to be a mid-tier army. Oh, wait...they do. (Well to be fair, the orcs do have choppas, which is extremely good against armies with good armor.) Somehow this is also Mat Ward's fault. Anyway, most competitive orcs and goblins lists mitigate animosity and take a combination of units and gear that minimize it. Here are things you can do to mitigate animosity:

Put a black orc character in a unit,especially in a unit with a level 4 caster. You don't want your unit squabbling and wasting a valuable turn not stomping the opponent into goo with the Foot of Gork.
Take units that don't suffer from animosity (trolls, black orcs, pumpwagons, manglers, etc.).
Use cheap goblin heroes on giant wolves instead of wolf riders for your war machine hunters.

2. Manglers and Pumpwagons are NOT throwaway chaff units. One thing I see time and time again (and used to do) is throwing the pumpwagons and mangler squigs forward. Opponents love moving a fast cavalry into the mangler to kill it. That is not a good use of the mighty mangler squig. Instead, the mangler works best as an area denial unit or a countercharge unit. To do this well, you have to shoot and magic the enemy's chaff units before they get to the mangler and step on it. After you kill the opponent's chaff, you have two great options:

Area Denial- You move the mangler in front of their expensive unit. They can either stop (giving you more time to Doom Diver/Rock Lobba/Magic/Foot/Curse/Throw Rocks at the unit and soften it up. Alternately, they can walk through it, taking the 3D6 hits and likely decimating the unit.

Countercharge- Orcs and Goblins aren't a super fast army. Almost every army (unless it's Tomb Kings) is going to be faster than you. Orcs and Goblins excel at taking charges and countercharging in the flank. With mangler squigs, you can hide them behind your lines and throw them against the side of the table (they stay still this way, but you take a dangerous terrain test). When the enemy charges you, you can throw the mangler through the enemy units. Usually by this point they're all lined up for you because they've charged your Savage Orc horde or Night Goblin horde.

Pumpwagons are similar, but have a few slightly different uses. With outriggas, the pumpwagon has a huge threat range. They work great in the early game by protecting your war machines on the edges of the table. You can throw them into the side of the table to stop their movement and then turn and charge when the enemy gets near. After that, they work great as countercharge units (throwing them into the flanks of enemies trying to charge you).

beerdrinker
17-01-2015, 02:32
[/QUOTE]
1. Orcs & Goblins is one of the only armies where their special rule is a drawback. Elves get always strikes first, daemons get ward saves, and O&G get...animosity. Thanks, Mat Ward. We also fear elves, which is just icing on the cake. It's almost like they want O&G to be a mid-tier army. Oh, wait...they do. (Well to be fair, the orcs do have choppas, which is extremely good against armies with good armor.) Somehow this is also Mat Ward's fault. Anyway, most competitive orcs and goblins lists mitigate animosity and take a combination of units and gear that minimize it. Here are things you can do to mitigate

[/QUOTE]

Animosity has been an orcs and goblins rule since warhammer has been a thing. At least since I first started anyway which was 3rd edition. Matt Ward didn't make it up.

sephiroth87
17-01-2015, 03:00
Animosity has been an orcs and goblins rule since warhammer has been a thing. At least since I first started anyway which was 3rd edition. Matt Ward didn't make it up.

The Mat Ward crack is a joke. Similar to "Thanks, Obama" if you're in the USA. Vetock actually wrote this book, I think. Animosity has always been a thing, but so was a 6 inch charge for dwarves. GW does this weird thing to Orcs and Goblins where they really don't want O&G as a top tier army. They intentionally make them mediocre by giving them huge drawbacks and don't really do this to, say, dark elves. A lot of it is done this way because they think we like "randomness." In a way a lot of O&G players do, but it has to be done right. Randomness needs to have as many good effects as bad. The previous (I like to call it "Pre-Mangler Squig") O&G book failed because it made O&G wheel in crazy ways in front of their own units when you got the "we'll show em" result. This time, you're either stuck or you have to declare a charge for 5 out of 6 rolls on the chart. Not good.

Balancewise, the last book's Waaagh! rule functioned as a nice counterbalance to Animosity. You could somewhat control one animosity phase and get some much needed speed on the charge. This time, most O&G use the Waaagh! rule maybe once every ten games. It's just not a good counterbalance to sticking in the mud for a turn. That said, I have really enjoyed this book. I just think the randomness needs to have a decent and constant upside along with the drawbacks.

beerdrinker
17-01-2015, 03:10
Gotcha. I do like sarcasm! Orcs and goblins are in a really good place right now. Such a fun army to play. Personally I like to run a horde of black orcs 10 wide 4 deep with a BO BSB. They can chew through most anything.

sephiroth87
17-01-2015, 03:50
They are a wrecking crew of a unit. The great weapons make them an armor killer. I send them right at a steam tank or such if I'm using them. Do you run Grimgor Ironhide?

beerdrinker
18-01-2015, 05:32
They are a wrecking crew of a unit. The great weapons make them an armor killer. I send them right at a steam tank or such if I'm using them. Do you run Grimgor Ironhide?

I have the model but have not used him yet. He is a wrecking ball as well and a good boost for the black orcs.

JWH
18-01-2015, 13:26
I have the model but have not used him yet. He is a wrecking ball as well and a good boost for the black orcs.

He is quite effective, but I've always found taking him and 30+ black orcs to be a case of 'too much eggs in one basket.'

Personally, I like taking a unit of spider riders, as they are quite gast and because the move over terrain very manouverable. Snagla Grobspit is also a good investment if you can spare the points.

Squig riders are really only good against dwarfs, where their low In is no problem. Striking last is killing for the unit. A small unit of them functions also a nice bus to get your character on great cave squig into combat.

The giant is nice, but a tad bit expensive and his attacks are so irregular that they are difficult to rely on. Yell and Bawl is a horrible attack, as the giant's low In often makes you attack last, which makes Y and B quite irrelevant.

The Arachnarok is expensive, but is very manouverable and fast for a monster, has a lot of attacks, is quite durable and its manouverability, many poisoned attacks and Venom Surge make it an effective monster hunter.

Spiney Norman
18-01-2015, 13:57
Stuff I consider really strong:
- Savage orc big'uns with two hand weapons; even better if with the 5++ from a shaman - a horde of those will tear through almost anything
- Manglers; great and cheap damage dealer that not all armies can easily get rid off
- Doom divers; excellent warmachines, among the best in the game
- Trolls; if you can supply them with leadership, a big block of them is nasty
- Orc magic

I hope orc magic is on this list only because it is better than goblin magic, the truth is both Lores are horrible, the big Waaagh just slightly less so. I've recently taken to using the lore of Undeath with my greenies (because why not?) and running the army with a magic lore that doesn't suck has given the army a new lease of life for me.

Also, you can add fanatics to that list, used right they are very dangerous

ok, here is my list

Do's
Savage Orc Bigguns
Night Goblins with Nets & Fanatics
Squig Herds
Spear chukkas
Trolls (common or River)
Doom Diver
Manglers
Wolf riders
Arachnarok Spider (Ok, it should probably be in the 'meh' list, but it's big and awesome-looking which imo is grounds for inclusion in this list)
River Troll Hag (not sure if we are including FW stuff, but she is awesome)
The Lore of Undeath

'Meh'
Squig Hoppers with a SquigBoss (big/warboss on a great cave Squig)
Black Orcs
Orc boys
Common goblins
Boarboyz (common or savage)
Rock Lobber
Snots
Goblin chariots
Squig Gobba (awesome model, I usually count mine as a second doom diver)
Lore of the big Waaagh!

Don'ts
Any orc with a bow
Giants
Squig Hoppers without a SquigBoss
Orc Chariots
Stone trolls
Spider riders
Lore of the little Waaagh!

The only thing I'm really not sure about is the pump wagon

JWH
20-01-2015, 15:54
About the special characters:

In general, they are in the book foor fluff reasons, not because they are particular good to play with. That said, I love the fluff and as a result I love playing with SC even though I know most of them to be sub-par.

Lords

Gorbad Ironclaw

He hits like a ton of bricks in close combat, he is both battle standard and general in one, and he can make an army full of Big 'Uns. He strikes first in combat, which is very important. He's also not that expensive pointswise.

His biggest problem is that he is a close combat monster that you actually don't want to put into combat most of the time, because as your BS, he will die when he break from combat. Riding a boar can also be quite problematic, as i would rather place on foot in a nice big infantry unit. Also, as is with most O&G characters, his save is quite poor. Not a first pick, except Perhaps in very specialized armies tailored around him.

Azhag the slaughterer

Azhag is a good fighter and a reasonable spellcaster. What is great is that he used the Lore of Death, which is a Breath of fresh air compaired to the crappy greenskin magic.

That said, he suffers from an identity crisis. On the one hand he's a fast attacker on a monster, while on the other he's a spellcaster that stops infighting while in close proximity to your units. He's also very expensive and his saves, while mildly better than Gorbad, are not fantastic. Not the most ideal character to use.

Wurrzag Ud Ura Zahubu

A powerful lord-level caster that can re-roll miscasts and has a couple of nice extra spells that can turn Enemy models into squigs...what's not to like?

He is level 4 Big Waaagh caster that costs a tremedous amount of points and, except for the re-rolls on miscasts, which is nice, has relatively few gains over a normal orc or savage orc shaman. Not a good choice.

Skarsnik, warlord of the Eight Peaks

He's a night goblin warlord with 6 (!) Wounds, that can deal quite a bit of damage in combat, has a very nice bound spell and can disrupt your opponent's deployment.

In the last book, he was quite a reasonable choice, but with his severe price hike, loss of halberd and little gains, he's not an optimal choice any more. He may have 6 wounds, but his flimsy 6+ armour save means that he will die in combat to almost any other lord level character. Only worth it in a night goblin army, and even then just for his Ld.

Grom th Paunch

A somewhat survivable goblin lord with some hitting power that combines a general with a battle standard and is quite affordable pointswise.

Once again, taking a general and battle standard and putting them on one model is very bad, especially on a chariot, which is there for getting close with your opponent.

Grimgor Ironhide

A beast in combat with quite reasonable saves, immunity to psychology and an upgraded bodyguard of black orcs for a very reasonable cost.

Really the best of the lord-level special characters and worth considering. Taking him and a sizable bodyguard of black orcs sets you back a huge number of points though. On top of that, he is the lamest, most one dimensional character ever created for Orcs an Goblins, which for me takes most of the fun out of using him. :p

Sarael
20-01-2015, 16:46
I used to play OnG but got sick of animosity.

Put your casters in the black orcs. Only exception is a SO level 1 or 2 with lucky head in the SO bigunz.

BSB should be a black orc, not necessarily IN the black orcs though. On a boar he leads trolls very well.

Anything else I'd recommend has already been said.

Glemigobles
21-01-2015, 00:36
Animosity - it never ends... As some of you said earlier some rolls should result in combat buffs (ASF or Hatred anyone?)
The true disadvantages of our army comes from BRB flaws. We should remember that 8th suffers from the same disease that put 7th low. Power level rising with every new AB. This problem came up when game designers wanted to fix certain BRB problems by simply clearing them out for ABs rather than FAQ'ing main rules.
And since first 4 or 5 books generaly catched the 8th BRB spirit (the thing some of you call 'internal balance') we suffer from that spirit errors:

1. Combat Resolution oriented army special rules

2. Initiative based combat system

3. Cavalry special rules

4. Magic

AD1 - Either Vetock didn't mind 8th stedfast rule or he wrote the book months before 8th was completed - both Waaaagh! and Chopa give bonus to CR - the first simply adds points to CR the second gives an opportunity to score some more CR on round 1 of CC...which doesn't change dog s.it in 8th close combat system

AD2 - Charge gives nothing. Fighting an opponent on your terms, flanking, charging, wheeling and rounding up should give you something! You outsmarted your enemy or you feel strong enough to crush him on a direct charge. With Ini fighting sequence O&G troops die in droves on a charge instead of killing enemy units. This brings us to AD3...

AD3 - it's even worse with cavalry units! It feels like Ward forgot to add - troop type cavalry - cavalry units benefit from Always Strike First rule when charging enemy units. It's how cavalry works. Boar boys are of no use since common BB are...medium knights with ini 2, and SBB are hard hitting wolf riders... with even lower AS...I'll stick with Trolls thank you very much.

AD4 - BRB magic lores are copy/paste from 4th warhammer magic. They're too powerfull. I think either all armies should have access to them or specific army lores should be on par with 'basic' ones. Little and Big Waaagh...eh...

We are slow, almost ASL, with weak magic... and we lack hitting power.

Do's? Anything to mitigate those problems. Which ends in being a mediocre army ;)

Spiney Norman
21-01-2015, 14:04
Animosity - it never ends... As some of you said earlier some rolls should result in combat buffs (ASF or Hatred anyone?)
The true disadvantages of our army comes from BRB flaws. We should remember that 8th suffers from the same disease that put 7th low. Power level rising with every new AB. This problem came up when game designers wanted to fix certain BRB problems by simply clearing them out for ABs rather than FAQ'ing main rules.
And since first 4 or 5 books generaly catched the 8th BRB spirit (the thing some of you call 'internal balance') we suffer from that spirit errors:

Ok, I'm going to call you on this, power creep has been at an absolute minimum this edition, there is maybe one book (Chaos warriors) that stands above the others in terms of power, but most books are pretty well on the level with O&G, there is literally no book that I dread facing, 8th is the most balanced edition of wfb in over a decade, even in its twilight.


1. Combat Resolution oriented army special rules

2. Initiative based combat system

3. Cavalry special rules

4. Magic

AD1 - Either Vetock didn't mind 8th stedfast rule or he wrote the book months before 8th was completed - both Waaaagh! and Chopa give bonus to CR - the first simply adds points to CR the second gives an opportunity to score some more CR on round 1 of CC...which doesn't change dog s.it in 8th close combat system
You might want to check the rule book again, additional CR is still a good thing, unless you're assaulting a building I guess.


AD2 - Charge gives nothing. Fighting an opponent on your terms, flanking, charging, wheeling and rounding up should give you something! You outsmarted your enemy or you feel strong enough to crush him on a direct charge. With Ini fighting sequence O&G troops die in droves on a charge instead of killing enemy units. This brings us to AD3...
Charging gives you additional CR, it also gets you use out of Charge weapons like spears on your chariots and Boar boyz. Its worth pointing out however that some O&G units to benefit from waiting for enemy units to come to them (spear goblins with fanatics).


AD3 - it's even worse with cavalry units! It feels like Ward forgot to add - troop type cavalry - cavalry units benefit from Always Strike First rule when charging enemy units. It's how cavalry works. Boar boys are of no use since common BB are...medium knights with ini 2, and SBB are hard hitting wolf riders... with even lower AS...I'll stick with Trolls thank you very much.

If you insist on using your boars like chaos knights then you will have a bad time, they're not going to wreck face vs any unit like they did in 7th edition, but thats a good thing, the solution really is to learn to use your units.


AD4 - BRB magic lores are copy/paste from 4th warhammer magic. They're too powerfull. I think either all armies should have access to them or specific army lores should be on par with 'basic' ones. Little and Big Waaagh...eh...

I wasn't playing war hammer in 4th, so I can't commit on whether the brb lores are word for word the same, but I do agree that O&G magic is utterly horrible, I'm very thankful that GW in their wisdom saw fit to FAQ the lore of undeath into the BRB, my night goblin shamans love summoning Zombies.

Darnok
21-01-2015, 17:10
Thanks everybody for the suggestions so far. Keep it coming. :D

Personally I'm not looking for a "competitive" list, but merely for a few pointers in the right direction for the models I actually own. For example: I don't own a single SO, and won't get any (unless I win the lottery or something...). So even if a SO horde was the best thing since sliced bread: I won't use them, because I don't have the models.

I do have quite a few Orcs with bows and Spider Riders, and will use them. Sucks to be me then, but I guess I'll find ways to use them. :)

SimaoSegunda
21-01-2015, 17:45
I don't get the Little Waaagh hate, I really don't. I think it's a cracking little lore, especially 2, 3 and 4. The lore attribute is decent, the casting values are low, and NG shamans are awesome. I've had a great deal of success with a Lv4 NG shaman bossing magic phases left right and centre.

Spiney Norman
21-01-2015, 17:56
I don't get the Little Waaagh hate, I really don't. I think it's a cracking little lore, especially 2, 3 and 4. The lore attribute is decent, the casting values are low, and NG shamans are awesome. I've had a great deal of success with a Lv4 NG shaman bossing magic phases left right and centre.

Compare it to any other magic lore in the game and you'll see why, the attribute is the only thing the lore has going for it, I've seen people throw dice at the lower end spells just to reduce their opponents power pool for when their orc wizard starts casting. Even the vortex isn't that good, unless you cast the high level spell the test taken is random and it causes a wound rather than *remove from the game* like every other vortex. It's almost like they realised how powerful the NG's magic mushroom rule was and gave them a gimped lore to compensate, but that's not much of a consolation to common goblin casters.

SimaoSegunda
21-01-2015, 18:14
Compare it to any other magic lore in the game and you'll see why, the attribute is the only thing the lore has going for it, I've seen people throw dice at the lower end spells just to reduce their opponents power pool for when their orc wizard starts casting. Even the vortex isn't that good, unless you cast the high level spell the test taken is random and it causes a wound rather than *remove from the game* like every other vortex. It's almost like they realised how powerful the NG's magic mushroom rule was and gave them a gimped lore to compensate, but that's not much of a consolation to common goblin casters.

I have compared it to other lores, and I've never really found myself wishing I had one of them instead. This thread has seen people complaining about their units striking last (helped by itchy nuisance), and people advocating a "castle and play defensive" style. Well, that's definitely helped by having poisoned shooting (try the spider banner in a big unit of archers, then casting gift of the spider god on them), night shroud (sync it up with a unit full of fanatics with netters, and watch enemy units dissolve on the charge), or itchy nuisance and curse of da bad moon to stop them making charges in the first place (-D6 movement is cheddar, and units can't charge through vortices).

Glemigobles
21-01-2015, 20:41
8th is the most balanced edition of wfb in over a decade, even in its twilight.

Correct. That still doesn't mean it's a balanced game. And I must disagree with only WoC being OP. Helfs, Delfs, DoC, VC and even Dwarfs are a real pain in the ars - not only to O&G.


You might want to check the rule book again, additional CR is still a good thing, unless you're assaulting a building I guess.


Charging gives you additional CR, it also gets you use out of Charge weapons like spears on your chariots and Boar boyz. Its worth pointing out however that some O&G units to benefit from waiting for enemy units to come to them (spear goblins with fanatics).

Than if you instist on CR being relevant than our low ini only makes it worse as we die in droves before we hit


If you insist on using your boars like chaos knights then you will have a bad time, they're not going to wreck face vs any unit like they did in 7th edition, but thats a good thing, the solution really is to learn to use your units.

I think you missed my point. I know that cavalry has a supporting role in 8th. It's just that cav rules are nerfed too much and cav units aren't good at what they should do. And if you take a low AS cav unit with poor ini and combine that with ini striking order you have some of the worst cav units in the game. On par with skeleton heavy horsemen. We shouldn't even argue about it - no one takes BB, SOBS or SH unless they're going for a fluffy list :)

On magic - totaly agree - little waagh just sucks. And I hate nightshroud with the same effect as the bad moon banner. So lazy. They actually fixed its effect in Ogres AB - I mean the DT test on all models in a unit touching gnoblars. Now that would make nightshroud useful.