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View Full Version : Talon of Horus issues (Spoiler Alert)



Dark_Element
21-01-2015, 20:33
My first post since Potent.net........ it's been a long time.

So, I loved Talon of Horus.... best 40K book in a really long time (especially after that steaming POS called Damnation of Pythos).

Here's my problem ((((((Spoilers))))))


So they clone Horus and he's back...... awesome. He's in the best terminator armor ever created and Abaddon just reaches in and guts him.
WHAT?!?!?!?
Abaddon also just catches WorldBreaker and destroys it.
WHAT?!?!?!?
I love the talon (pretty weapon), but the Emp most likely made better weapons than Vulcan or Ferris. No way it just falls apart like that.

Now I wouldn't have wanted to see Horus 2.0 or anything like that. The original fluff says the body was stolen and cloned (also suggesting multiple times according to the 3rd edition codex).
No problem with the clone dying, but dying like that?!?!? A primarch is too fast and too durable to die like that. If anything, Horus 2.0 should have laughed and torn Abby in two.

Primarchs are hit by Titan weapons, punched with power fists, stabbed, shot and everything else...... but all you need is someone to walk up to them and slowly reach thru their armor.
Makes sense......

Oh, one other problem...... how does Horus remember anything? It's not "Horus", just some other guy with his genes.

Fantastic book otherwise.

-DE

Karhedron
21-01-2015, 20:50
It has been stated a couple of times in the HH novels that the Primarchs are more than just flesh and blood. The Emperor packed them full of warp-juice (possible "stolen" from the Chaos Gods if we believe Ingethel the Ascended). That was at least part of what made the Primarchs unique.

A clone might have the DNA of Horus but would not have any of his more supernatural attributes as the process was unrepeatable, even for the Emperor. The clone might have physically matched Horus but if Abaddon had already been blessed with some chaotic gifts then he might have been a match for a de-powered clone.

MvS
21-01-2015, 21:08
My take:

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT SO IF YOU DON'T WANT THEM, DON'T READ!!!



Abaddon only got to the Horus clone after it had been ripped into by hundreds of warp-altered rounds from the Thousand Sons (standard and Heavy Bolter rounds), and a desperate and extremely powerful warp-lightning attack by an incredibly powerful sorcerer (Khayon) throwing literally everything he had at 'Horus', and after a daemon familiar had ripped into Horus, and two priceless power swords rammed through his back and out through his chest. The Horus clone's armour had been shattered in many places, and his flesh had been severely battered by magic, a daemon and a couple of hundred exploding warp-rounds, so that chunks of muscle had been blown away.

And, of course, this was 'Horus' devoid of the touch of Chaos.

Also, Abaddon is depicted as being the New Awesome Abaddon in the book. And the Talon might perhaps have some sort of additional mojo because of the Emperor's and Sanguinius's blood staining it. It was the haft of Worldbreaker that snapped, not the mace head itself, where I would imagine the majority of the dangerous mojo would be.

So it isn't really a completely even toe-to-toe between Horus and Abaddon. The 'Horus' clone was blasted ragged by all kinds of nastiness.

My two pence.

EDIT

And very possibly what Karhedron said too. :)

Dark_Element
21-01-2015, 21:12
That's a great point :)

The only thing that gives me pause is, he's still moving faster than marines can really see...... hitting so hard they are flying apart...... and still wearing the best Terminator Armor ever made (which is unbroken, and wasn't defeated by the Emp or Sang).
The talon (which is awesome) couldn't possibly go thru it like butter and without a reaction from a primarch. It'd have to spark, meet resistance, make noise, cause pain.... etc, BEFORE a fatal wound could be administered..... By that time Abby would be dead and cold......... plus, how did he get the whole hand into Horus 2.0???? The "fingers" wouldn't open a big enough hole to get the whole first plus the stormbolter into his chest....... it's really a crazy idea.

-DE

Dark_Element
21-01-2015, 21:22
All good points MVS...... maybe that was it.
I just didn't get the feeling he was that hurt...... maybe I misread it.

-DE

jareddm3
22-01-2015, 04:14
Most importantly, and what will be one of the best parts of the Black Legion series, is simply that it's all being told by Khayon. He can embellish and omit where ever he wants. To him, Abaddon killing a clone wasn't anything that amazing. Yes, it was an impressive clone, but to Khayon, there have been far more interesting things that Abaddon has done since. Does this mean that's exactly how it happened? No it doesn't. We're free to believe his interpretation, but there's plenty of reasons why he told it the Inquisitors way he did.

Keep
22-01-2015, 16:39
There's the thing about weapons that ignore armour... they ignore armour. At the end of the day it still was "only" a terminator armour.

Sandlemad
22-01-2015, 19:51
Seconding everything said so far but it's also mentioned in the FW HH books that the talon may be a pre-Imperial relic found in the ruins of Cthonia. Khayon even says that Worldbreaker broke in the face of a 'superior weapon'.

MR.Tea
23-01-2015, 11:20
It is a clone of Horus, yet the clone recognises both Abaddon and talon form the moment he layed eyes on them. That part is confusing to me. Clone has memories of original Horus, or something else?

Largo
23-01-2015, 11:53
All good points MVS...... maybe that was it.
I just didn't get the feeling he was that hurt...... maybe I misread it.

-DE

In the audiobook, Jonathan Keeble's frankly superb narration really does hammer home how hurt Horus was.
The whole damn thing was a great listen, really made the hours at work fly by.
ADB and Jonathan Keeble is a match blessed by the pantheon itself.

jareddm3
23-01-2015, 12:09
It is a clone of Horus, yet the clone recognises both Abaddon and talon form the moment he layed eyes on them. That part is confusing to me. Clone has memories of original Horus, or something else?

In 40k, the warp allows for what is essentially flesh memory. It is one theory how the Omophagea operates. It is not the mind that is remembering, but the spirit.

Phunting
01-02-2015, 01:54
Personally, I care less about the physical reasons behind Horus being taken down so 'easily', and more about the narrative ones. This is 40k, and I am happy for physical attributes to rely on artistic licence. I did, however, feel it was pretty anti-climatic to play out as it did. As an EC fan, I'd have loved a greater exploration behind Fabius' work, plans and situation. Instead we just got a few redshirt monsters to be gunned down before the main lab. Sure, this isn't a book about the EC, but this dimension is pretty pivotal to the story of Horus' cloning, so it seemed a shame it was so quickly passed over. But the main problem I felt was the lack of event about the cloning. Horus just didn't make much of an impact in the story, and considering how pivotal he is to this plot, that seemed a wasted opportunity. I wanted to explore the clone, but we barely got a chance to do so.

That's not to say it's not a great book; it is. Right up until the denouement it is consistently well written, interesting and thought-provoking. ADB is by far the best writer BL have, and this book was by no means a break from form, I just really found the climax to be unsatisfying.

jareddm3
01-02-2015, 02:16
I believe that's the point of the way it was told. Hundreds of years later it might be this grand tale that is told amongst the Black Legion, a battle that lasted weeks on end. When in reality, it simply wasn't. It wasn't pivotal to the founding of the Black Legion, it was made pivotal after the fact in its retelling. Or perhaps, like I said above, it's all just Khayon's interpretation. He was still completely exhausted from hauling two ships at once through the warp. Had it been described from Lheor or Abaddon's perspective, it might've been completely different. And perhaps in a later book, we might get that.

Arijharn
08-02-2015, 00:18
In 40k, the warp allows for what is essentially flesh memory. It is one theory how the Omophagea operates. It is not the mind that is remembering, but the spirit.

That doesn't make sense either, Horus' spirit was literally blasted into oblivion because the Emperor went super sayan on him. Unless Fabius cloned Horus from an almost whole amount of brain matter, it doesn't make much sense to me that he recognizes Abaddon and the Talon.

ElGigante
08-02-2015, 09:59
That doesn't make sense either, Horus' spirit was literally blasted into oblivion because the Emperor went super sayan on him. Unless Fabius cloned Horus from an almost whole amount of brain matter, it doesn't make much sense to me that he recognizes Abaddon and the Talon.

GW sticks by the idea of genetic memory. Faux-Horus is remembering because he has the same genes. Or perhaps hypno indoctrination was part of the cloning? He recalls Abaddon and co because its been downloaded into his brain.

Lupe
09-02-2015, 18:18
GW sticks by the idea of genetic memory. Faux-Horus is remembering because he has the same genes. Or perhaps by on or indoctrination was part of the cloning? He recalls Abaddon and co because its been downloaded into his brain.

Remember that Space Marines have an organ that allows them to gain some of the memories of whatever it is they're eating. Anyone care to wager on what Fabius has been feeding the Horus clone? :)

Scammel
09-02-2015, 18:59
I'm surprised the clone wasn't atomised by Khayon sneezing.

jareddm3
09-02-2015, 21:01
What a sorcerer can do when they have time to prepare and are willing to put themselves into a coma for six months isn't exactly a fair comparison for what they can pull off on the fly with barely a moment to think.

FlashGordon
21-02-2015, 09:54
Remember that Space Marines have an organ that allows them to gain some of the memories of whatever it is they're eating. Anyone care to wager on what Fabius has been feeding the Horus clone? :)

Parts of the real horus? ;)

MR.Tea
21-02-2015, 10:12
One more thing about the book.
So Ahriman's rubric was there to stop mutations of his legion. Yet in the ToH, Iskandar says thet eaven he has some mutations.
So, did he broke the rubric?
Or it does not apply if you want to mutate so rubric has no effect on free will of some sorts?

randian
21-02-2015, 10:25
Ahriman was wrong, Chaos is going to mutate you regardless. Oops, Tzeentch lied!

flota
21-02-2015, 18:49
It stopped the mutations of the rank and file IIRC

Nazguire
22-02-2015, 02:41
It stopped the mutations of the rank and file IIRC

I thought it stopped the mutations of them all? The officers of the Legion may have mutated but it either stopped or reversed the mutations that occurred. I got that impression from the latest Ahriman book with Sanahkt

He reminisces about how before the Rubric his hands were turning to crystal, and that after the Rubric (at least, this is how I interpreted it) they no longer were.

flota
22-02-2015, 02:54
Of course I meant it stopped the mutations of the rank and file because in turn them into automatons
The sorcerers got a boost in power but they kept their "human" form IIRC

But thanks for those facts, all mutations stopped.
But if x sorcerer kept messing with the warp could that still affect him anyway?

Phunting
03-03-2015, 23:14
Another question that occurred- what was the point of the EC stealing Horus' body to clone him, when from the other Primarch clones it is obvious that their body is not required to do this?

Rufiodies
04-03-2015, 00:14
What other primarch clones have there been besides Fulgrim?

And the Alpha Legion do have a pure sample of ... is it like the source of gene seed? directly from the emperor? or was it just a pure form of Corax's genes?

jareddm3
04-03-2015, 01:01
Another question that occurred- what was the point of the EC stealing Horus' body to clone him, when from the other Primarch clones it is obvious that their body is not required to do this?

You mean the clones that were not in even the slightest bit close to finished? Compared to the fully functioning Horus clone? I think it's clear there's a world of difference between having a body and having flecks of DNA at best.

Sandlemad
04-03-2015, 08:45
Yeah, you have to wonder where he even got the primarchs' genetic material. Bile had Horus's body and had previously been granted access to Ferrus's body after Istvaan. But the rest?

The First Heretic and Nemesis mention that the primarchs are rather cagey about sharing their genetic template, when the Word Bearers are idly designing weapons and sorceries keyed to killing them. Maybe during the siege of Terra he went rooting through the Emperor's labs rather than assailing the walls.

Karhedron
04-03-2015, 12:53
And the Alpha Legion do have a pure sample of ... is it like the source of gene seed? directly from the emperor? or was it just a pure form of Corax's genes?
I don't think it comes from the Emperor. It is not clear if it is Corax's geneseed or undifferentiated geneseed from before the Primarchs had their various unique abilities spliced in.

Also, I do not think that it is "purity" that makes the super-RG geneseed superior. I think that Corax modified it using the knowledge the Emperor gave him to accelerate the maturation process and amp it up.

That is an interesting thought. I seem to remember that the first few Raptors were implanted before the Alpha Legion managed to contaminate the new genessed. Does this mean there could still be some superior specimens knocking around in the Ravenguard?

ryng_sting
06-03-2015, 11:53
What Corax received was the gene-tech - the original source material the Emperor used to create the Primarchs and Space Marines. He also had some (not all) of the knowledge on how to use and modify it implanted directly into his mind. From it, Corax was able to turn RG recruits into even more powerful, fully developed Space Marines within days, and without the need for progenoid glands. This was what the AL stole and kept for themselves. What happened next is yet to be covered.

Rufiodies
07-03-2015, 23:43
So the alpha legion stole the source material? but they have no idea how to use it beyond what they already knew or figured out for themselves after. So they can't just take the source and start making super alpha legionnaires.
My question is, yeah is this gene seed still being used by the Raven Guard?
Corax didn't know the Alpha Legion poisoned the source, did he assume that ALL the Raptors were corrupted? So he wouldn't have allowed any of that gene seed back into circulation.

Also, we have to assume that regardless of what he had implanted in his mind, he still needs that source material to make more Raptors. Progenoid glands need time to mature, so maybe he was just working off what he had until they could make more. I dunno, you'd think he'd still be able to make marines faster/stronger with the additional information he got despite the corrupted source, I'm pretty sure he thinks that he screwed up though, so maybe he's just totally discouraged and would never attempt to screw with his legion again in fear of making the same mistake.
The old fluff also mentions him kinda having a emo breakdown over it before he ran off on his vision quest to the Eye so I'd have to say he's pretty broken up about it.

ryng_sting
09-03-2015, 13:49
Refer to my last sentence.

Rufiodies
09-03-2015, 21:22
If no one on here ever speculated what was going to happen in upcoming books, this entire section of the forum would be dead.