PDA

View Full Version : Starting Falling Angels Army - Even Possible?



Tooooon
28-06-2006, 12:47
Righto!

For some reason for a while now ive been wishing to do an army around Cypher purely for the reason that he is one of my overall fave 40k characters.

I was thinking using Chaos stats due to the stats for Fallen Angels which may be given with Cypher having the stats of the basic chaos sm, but not to include any mark of chaos (this is where is starts to get difficult), no demons, and nothing which would be out of character for Fallen Angels (aka possessed, raptors, etc....).

Now considering all of the above factors which greatly limits the amount I could do with this army if I did go ahead, would it be possible on a battling scale, and would it even be possible on a fluff scale? (due to Fallen not really being seen together in a whole load, let alone an army!)

Opinions?

Reign in Blood
28-06-2006, 12:59
Fluff wise it shouldn't happen...other people on this site have had the same question and pretty much got the same answer. There are semi official rules to use cypher with a unit of fallen in a CSM army as an elites choice (a sort of veteran squad). They were in white dwarf and they are on the net somewhere.

Aeon
28-06-2006, 13:39
Try the 13th Company

The rules enable you to hate Dark Angels, take Helmet Bearers (Fenrisian Wolves), allow you to take warriors with 10,000yrs experiance, are based in warbands, effective without transports plus low numbers and numerous other reasons

RaiderOne
28-06-2006, 13:48
Theres a guy down here that uses the CSM rules for his fallen dark angels army. Preherasy colours of course and the way its built is neat. He used regular marine minitures to avoid the chaos icons and swapped somethings around, he uses a leman russ as an indirect firing defiler for example.

Depending on how you view the DA background this army is completly possible or none existant. I like the idea and think it looks really cool. You basicaly have two way to build it, traitor fallen angels or loyalist fallen angels. Traitors can pretty much take anything they like from the chaos codex and are an undivided army. Loyalists avoid demons and make heavy use of the availible veteran skills, undivided mark and demonic upgrades that dont scream demon over here :P

The army can still be very competative as havocs, raptors, marines, chosen, predators, landraiders and bikes etc are all still availible to you.

ArtificerArmour
28-06-2006, 13:53
Also, the fallen angels probably take chunks of armour from fallen marines, leading to a pretty cool "anti - space wolves" 13th company.

HiredSword.
28-06-2006, 13:58
or maybe lost and the damned army? with traitor guardsmen filling out the footslogger roles with the Fallen in charge?

I never thought of using the 13th company rules, quite a good idea actually. The wulfen could be fallen who have completely, er, fallen to the dark powers.

Son of the Lion
28-06-2006, 14:05
Hmm. There are many people that will tell you a fallen army is 'against' the fluff, because they were supposedly scattered across time and space. But personally, I can't see why a few wouldn't band together to further their mysterious and (possibly sinister ) goals. This is particularly true if you include ol' 001 himself.
My Fallen Army is usually fielded in small games as a CSM force, using Mark of Undivided only. I avoid possessed, Daemonic units,the more 'daemonic' daemonic gifts and power-specific squads (ie bezerkers/death guard). This does limit your tactical flexibility a little, but it's still a good army to play. Alternatively, You could field a LatD force with a small group of Undivided Marines to represent the Fallen stirring up a planet's population. This option gives you a lot more scope for modelling and painting, and is something I'm planning on exploring....

Edit: You beat me to it. Damn you, HiredSword. #shakes fist# :)

I like the 13th co. idea though....

AmKhaibitu
28-06-2006, 14:07
Now why doesn't it surprise me when Aeon shows his head when talking about fallen angels armies.
If it's the very same guy I used to know, he used to flip between army lists.

13th company seems fairly decent as long as you avoid the wolfen.

Melchor
28-06-2006, 14:09
I'd go for the 13th Company myself... Small army, limited choices, lots of characters. Sounds like a deal. Plus the way it plays seems suitable for Fallen Angels as well.

Lyinar
28-06-2006, 14:31
As to the Fallen? As they are scattered, and each of them have different goals ranging from seeking redemption for their sins through the blood of the Imperium's enemies to fully embracing Chaos and attempting to destroy the Imperium, there are a surprisingly large number of ways to make an army of the Fallen in a fluffy manner.

My idea was a penitent army, using the Space Marine codex and the traits "Take the Fight to Them", "See but don't be Seen", "Aspire to Glory", and "Faithful Unto Death", to represent a very small, very skilled covert strike force.

One could also go with a small unit of the Fallen leading a LatD force.

Or an entire Chaos-based army.

Or 13th Company to take my idea to an even further extreme.

Like I said, there are a LOT of different ways to represent the Fallen that will fit in with the fluff.

Son of the Lion
28-06-2006, 14:32
Well I don't know about Toooon, but I'm sold.

Consider the 13th Co. idea well and truly pinched.

#Yoink#

HiredSword.
28-06-2006, 14:32
Edit: You beat me to it. Damn you, HiredSword. #shakes fist# :)


and i'll do it again i tell you! do it again in an instant!

ahem, modelling possibilities for either list variants would definately be good, more so for LatD imo, but whatever you do be sure to post some photos :D

sigur
28-06-2006, 14:56
...
Now considering all of the above factors which greatly limits the amount I could do with this army if I did go ahead, would it be possible on a battling scale, and would it even be possible on a fluff scale?...

According to previous topics about the same thing and my personal opinion, it's impossible.

The Fallen Angels have been scatteres through space and time, many died, few have been found by the DA, many have hidden in the eye of terror and have gone mad, some joined the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines and so on....

The thing is: Why would any Fallen Angel want to form an "army" with another one, or even a squad? They surely would become the top priority target of the DA, have no supplies, no vehicles, ....

It just makes no sense and there would be no way to gather so many Fallen Angels at one place. Sorry to put your idea down. This topic shows up every few months and in the end, most people agree about the impossibility of such an army in fluff terms and it's pretty much pointless to have a DA-fluff-themed army if it would just twist the fluff and abuse it. There's a whole universe of army possibilities out there; you might want to look for another one.

Maybe you can start an army of LatD in which Cypher sneaked in as an advisor or something. Cypher is a guy who perfers to work alone, so it's rather hard to build an army around him.

Voltaire
28-06-2006, 17:39
While it is impossible to create a Fallen Angels list, it is possible to imply that some Imperial Guard or Chaos have listened to the Cypher and pledged his course by using a small unit of chosen led by a Lord (see below) in their ranks that are modelled and painted like Fallen Angels.

I gave devise the following profile as potential for Cypher.

Chaos Lord
Master Crafted bolt pistol & plasma pistol, power weapon, spiky bits, frag grenades, krak grenades, melta bombs.
Daemonic Rune & Strength
Points: 174

This would represent everything that is on the model expect the old C'Tan phase sword (which he lost) and the Lion Swords special rules.

Khaine's Messenger
28-06-2006, 18:09
Why would any Fallen Angel want to form an "army" with another one, or even a squad?

Mutual protection. Remember the two Fallen from Angels of Darkness who Astelan calls cowards for continuing to run off like scared children?


Maybe you can start an army of LatD in which Cypher sneaked in as an advisor or something. Cypher is a guy who perfers to work alone, so it's rather hard to build an army around him.

I would suggest one read the short story "Unforgiven" or the novel Angels of Darkness. You don't even really need Cypher. Building Astelan's army, or the "DA-mocking" slave-droves from "Unforgiven," would be easy.

Tooooon
28-06-2006, 18:15
Bloody hell, now theres some great choices! lol

Righto, im gonna go eat me dinner, then look through and decide which ill go for and why, and try and see what fluff I can come up with with each type.

Cheers for the ideas and suggestions peeps, and now to experiment a bit! Any more ideas, comments, suggestions, etc while im thinking are welcomed!

Sir_Turalyon
28-06-2006, 18:43
The Fallen Angels have been scatteres through space and time, many died, few have been found by the DA, many have hidden in the eye of terror and have gone mad, some joined the ranks of the Chaos Space Marines and so on....


Half ot the legion went fallen. Other half founded ~3-5 chapters after second founding - so there are tousands of Fallen scattered through space and time. A 40k army consists of 30-50 marines; it's possible for such a small force to appear in one place... especialy if they do not operate at random, but are joined in purpose (like following Cypher).



The thing is: Why would any Fallen Angel want to form an "army" with another one, or even a squad? They surely would become the top priority target of the DA, have no supplies, no vehicles, ....

We do not know how effective DA are, but they seem to be more zealous then competent in their hunt of the fallen. Perspective of becoming top priority of DA may be laughable.

As above, all they need to gather is a purpose, and that is provided by Cypher.



It just makes no sense and there would be no way to gather so many Fallen Angels at one place. Sorry to put your idea down.


Nothing new here; in particulkar nothing puting down myy above statements. Sorry to put your idea down ;).


Cypher is a guy who perfers to work alone, so it's rather hard to build an army around him.


Like joining forces of true chaos marines, whom he actualy despises (source: fluff for chaos marines vs Ravenwing battle report, beginning of 3rd edition)? Fluff says he happens to operate alone and says nothing of his preferences; he is often mentioned leading various forces, including fallen angels (3rd ed chaos codex, Galotha's itterogation). His aim being dark angel's salvation, if he can join troops he despises he obviously can also join troops he cares about, can't he?

I'm afraid you are mistaking your impressions with actual fluff.

Nothing in the fluff says directly that idea is impossible. It is never mentioned as possible, which is not the same thing. As GW guys love tho say, it's big universe and whatever you come up with, you won't be wrong.

In particular, if you have good modeling and army composition idea, don't let people put down your ideas. We have already seen great and less great unique armies like Alabama Orks or Hello Kitty Sisters of Battle; what wrong would be well painted chaos marines in black loyalist armour with dark angels insignia?

t-tauri
28-06-2006, 18:54
From a fluff basis the Fallen would never congregate in large numbers unless to further their agenda, even if they all share the same agenda. Some work with Cypher, others are nothing but Chaos Marines, others mercenaries and loners. An army sized group would be very unusual but then so should C'tan and Marine Chapter Masters.

Loyal Marines, Chaos Marines, LatD could all work depending on the theme you want for your army. Loyal marines bearing the broken sword, evil traitors trying to destroy the Imperium.

HiredSword.
28-06-2006, 19:21
as Turalyon says, it's only 30-50 marines. I'm sure they didn't all disperse immediately after they fell. As far as i can see, other fallen chapters still stayed together for protection, leadership, evil plans etc. so why not the fallen?

The same arguments can be used against whole armies of alpha legion if you read the fluff, although i hardly see anyone raise this issue.

saying this though, a lost and the damned army would be much more appropriate than a 13th company due to the number of fallen.

Overall though, the debate is ambiguous enough to slide either way so just go for it.

calicojack
28-06-2006, 20:02
Most all have thus far posted that the Fallen would not congregate in significant numbers. That said, choosing any of the three most intriguing options leads to not significant numbers of Marine Equivilants in a force.

13th Great Company interesting "counts as" army option, 'though mechanically they seem much more "Black Templar" than "Dark Angel" to me. Still, prevalence of bikes could mimic Ravenwing, and in _background_ the two groups seem somewhat similar [scavenge from fallen Chaos Marines and Loyalists, been missing "in the Warp" for ages, uncertain loyalty from the Imperium's perspective, etc etc].

The Chaos Space Marines would work well as few on the ground in not giving them any mark whatsoever [thus uncertain loyalties], but stacking up on the Veteran Skills [since they've supposedly been around in some cases since shortly after the Heresy]. Avoid vehicles and dreadnoughts, and there you go! Chosen would allow for a fair number of Fallen Terminators as well. You could use the Cypher Special Character, or if disallowed by your opponent, build an equivilant Lieutenant or Lord easily enough.

Still too many Marines for you? Run Lost and the Damned to have a few elite Marines amongst, say, a retinue of human pirates, or the honour troops of a Rogue Trader who have fallen under "the Voice's" spell. Blood Pact troops would be particularly appropriate in this force, and the few Marines would definitely be an Elite bunch amongst the human rabble.

One strange option, would be to use the Legion of the Damned rules [from one of the Chapter Approved books] for a small force of Marines with "eerie powers" involving being pulled into the Warp at strange moments... No match fluff-wise between the two groups, save that the "dispersed by the Warp throughout Time and Space" might make an unusual fit, plus like the 13th Great Company, few would be using this take on it.

Apollyon
28-06-2006, 20:46
Quotes from Index Astartes emphasis mine ...your idea is unfluffy

Not all of the Fallen Angels have succumbed to therpower of Chaos to the same degree. A large number of the Fallen have embraced the ways of the Dark Gods,becoming true Chaos Space Marines. However, many others realise that their actions during the fall of Caliban were wrong. Disgusted by the corrupting influence of the Chaos Gods and unable to reconcile themselves with the Dark Angels, they lead a solitary existence. Many become mercenaries or pirates,roaming the galaxy as masterless men. Others are willing to atone for their sins and in an attempt to do so have integrated themselves back into human societies.

The Fallen are dispersed throughout space and time as either isolated individuals or in small bands, and the DarkAngels can go for years without hearing any rumoursthat might lead them to one or more of the Fallen.

Lyinar
28-06-2006, 20:51
I'd say less than forty models in 1850 points counts as a "small band"... Especially if you go with the idea that specific army is quite literally everyone in it, with no replacements.

Apollyon
28-06-2006, 20:53
40 Fallen in one place will get you the undivided attention of all the Unforgiven chapters.



I'd say less than forty models in 1850 points counts as a "small band"... Especially if you go with the idea that specific army is quite literally everyone in it, with no replacements.

ArtificerArmour
28-06-2006, 21:20
Yes, but it also says they attempt to work their way back into human existance.

8 foot supermen tend to stick out, even without armour. If anything this would attract the dark angels even more.

Khaine's Messenger
28-06-2006, 21:32
8 foot supermen tend to stick out, even without armour. If anything this would attract the dark angels even more.

If Lexandro De'Arquebus can pass himself off as anything other than a Space Marine in Imperial society, I think the scheming and duplicitous progeny of the Lion can manage.... ;)

Sir_Turalyon
28-06-2006, 21:32
Provided the Unforgiven are as vigilant they think they are... which is unlikely. There are only few tousands of Unforgiven, only few hundereds from first companies know truth about fallen. There are tousands or hundereds of tousands of inhabited worlds, and most of them are house to millions of people. I think even Inquisitoin would have problems with tracking down 40 men who know how to cover their tracks.

HiredSword.
28-06-2006, 23:09
'small bands'? that's what i mean, it's just ambiguous.

Obviously you think maybe 10 at the most, but the truth is fluff can sometimes be their for your own interpretation. It says that 'many others' not 'the rest of them' lead solitary lives.

I get what a lot of you mean, and i would start grimacing if i started seeing every other person in store with a fallen army, but it really isnt that out of bounds of the fluff.

What would be unexceptable (in my eyes) is to screw up the chance of such a fluffy army by using standard marine models with a few chaos head swaps and trophy racks. I think i'd cry actually. It's a chance to really have a unique army look.

Right, babbling a bit now, should probably go to sleep...

ice3jb
29-06-2006, 05:02
If your looking for a fallen army. I would consider two things. One fluff wise the fallen would only showup in a very small #. Let's remember that a legion only consists of 10,000 At least 4,000 fought for the Lion. Now minus causalties from both sides, and the # of fallen could only be few thosand tops. Futher imagine this group dispersed through out the galaxy. If these individuals are going to be able to hide from a mobile space marine chapter dedicated to finding them. Then even getting into small groups would be a danger to them. It would be extremly rare for the Fallen to work together let alone an army of them. Maybe an army with a fallen or small band of them leading it would be more appropriate. possibly a traitor gaurd army lead by some fallen. This would ceritnaly fit the fluff.

Son of the Lion
29-06-2006, 15:17
@ all naysayers.

This is a fantasy game, and half the appeal is coming up with your own ideas for army themes etc. Stamping all over somebody's idea for an army because you consider it unfluff worthy is BS. Especially considering the huge amount of contradictions and blatant cock ups GW make with the background. There is no actual concrete evidence, even in the (ever-conflicting) background, that a gathering of more than a few fallen is impossible. Neither is it logical to assume that any gathering of fallen are devoted to the chaos powers (that's what the counts as rule is for - one of the few truly creative rules left in 40k). Instead of brandishing your 'superior' knowledge of the 40k background all over the shop, how bout you come up with some positive suggestions?


Edit: Like (for example) Hired sword's comments. (damn you once again:)).

I know I just made myself unpopular, and possibly earned myself a smackdown from a mod, but that had to be said. :eyebrows:

Csibevara
29-06-2006, 15:51
Lets play with the Fallen's! but remember: We ( the Dark Angel chapter) never forget and never forgive!! :))))

Apollyon
29-06-2006, 17:56
For that matter why not have Leman Russ return and lead them all brandishing Necron weapons in a Eldar scorpion. :eyebrows:



@ all naysayers.

This is a fantasy game, and half the appeal is coming up with your own ideas for army themes etc. Stamping all over somebody's idea for an army because you consider it unfluff worthy is BS. Especially considering the huge amount of contradictions and blatant cock ups GW make with the background. There is no actual concrete evidence, even in the (ever-conflicting) background, that a gathering of more than a few fallen is impossible. Neither is it logical to assume that any gathering of fallen are devoted to the chaos powers (that's what the counts as rule is for - one of the few truly creative rules left in 40k). Instead of brandishing your 'superior' knowledge of the 40k background all over the shop, how bout you come up with some positive suggestions?


Edit: Like (for example) Hired sword's comments. (damn you once again:)).

I know I just made myself unpopular, and possibly earned myself a smackdown from a mod, but that had to be said. :eyebrows:

HiredSword.
29-06-2006, 18:28
For that matter why not have Leman Russ return and lead them all brandishing Necron weapons in a Eldar scorpion. :eyebrows:


because that would be silly while a fallen army would only be taking an ambiguous figure and stretching it. i.e. a fallen army would need less explanation than Leman Russ and his posse driving a pimped out scorpion (the mind boggles :p )


@son of the lion; mwahahahaha. Ahem. consider it personal now :evilgrin:

Grand Master Belial
29-06-2006, 22:45
Okay, I'll chime in. I do have a Fallen Army. It is designed to be used with nearly every list available.

The Great Crusades were a Crusader army so a BT list is possible.
They are SM and those few who are penitent can be potrayed by a SM Codex or DA Codex.
13th Company has been mentioned.

Using the Cypher rules allows one to use the IG Codex

For those truly bad apples, there is a CSM list and a Lost and the Damned list.

Lost and the Damned is probably the most plausible.

Numbers are a problem. I usually limit my lists to no more than 750pts unless it is Chaos, IG, or Lost and the Damned.

Son of the Lion
30-06-2006, 00:51
Just you wait til I can type faster than three words a minute. Then you're in trouble....

Ravenous
30-06-2006, 03:40
Perhaps a marine army would work, I cant recall if cypher is still a valid character or not.

I know that he was 164 some odd points and doesnt have his ctan blade anymore

Damien 1427
30-06-2006, 11:08
The Great Crusades were a Crusader army so a BT list is possible.

Actually, the Great Crusade wasn't a religous crusade per se, but a reclaimation of the the realms of man by Earth. The Imperium was very much a secular society until after the Heresy. So if the Templars are anything like I remember them, a crusading army of religous nutters doesn't fit the pre-heresy Legions at all.

For Fallen, I'd use a LATD list to represent a dozen or so and their human hangers-on.

kane40k
02-07-2006, 11:26
personaly i like the latd idea! its seems cool and i've had armies whooped by them before

Witch Hunter
02-07-2006, 17:31
There is precedent in some fluff pieces for the Fallen to congregate in small bands(2-7), I can't recall the exact work or it's title, but the last remaining Marine was reminiscing of his brothers and their deeds throughout their history. Seems like there were at least 5, could have been a complete tac squad. Suitable for LatD. I can see 13th Co. rules working with Cypher at their head, or a force similiar to the group encountered in Angels of Darkness. I reckon there is plenty of precedent to field the Fallen in whatever form you want.

On a personal note, I believe the majority of the Fallen are truly LOYAL to the Emperor, not the Lion!!! Remnants of the original legion he led in the early days of the crusade. That said, I lean toward loyalist rules for my Fallen(ATSKNF,etc.) and tend to stray away from Chaos. However, I am by no means ruling out chaos-touched Fallen. I just think the majority aren't.
My two pence...

HiredSword.
02-07-2006, 22:47
On a personal note, I believe the majority of the Fallen are truly LOYAL to the Emperor, not the Lion!!!


for anyone interested, read the fluff for the dark angels on wikipedia, especially the end. While perhaps not what the author of the original fluff meant, it's quite an interesting twist on the DA fluff.

t-tauri
02-07-2006, 22:58
That's the interesting thing about the DA. The loyalists may be the "Fallen" while the current chapters are descended from those who teetered on the edge of falling in with Horus.

Ixidor10024
03-07-2006, 02:24
In the fluff section on the EoT codex it mentions a world where a mysterious robed figure calling himself the "voice of the Emperor". He carried with him a sheathed sword and 2 pistols. He took advantage of the frightened imperial citizens (caused by the plagues running rampart through the sector) and corrupted them (but still made them believe they were worshiping the emperor) with his superior oratory skills. This person is Cypher of course. I always imagined a LatD army led by him with a bunch of PDF troopers mixed with some crazed zealots. I would think a FEW fallen would come to him and should be used as aspiring champions in the list. This would represent there superiority over even normal marines. Sorry if this is a bunch of ununderstandable garble. I am quite tired but I wanted to say this before I forgot. Hopefully some of what I said helped.

Son of the Lion
03-07-2006, 03:02
Personally, I think Thorpe should be shot for Angels of Darkness, even if he did tack on that bit about it being 'from the point of view of one of the fallen'.

I'm also getting a bit annoyed with the rough deal DA get with every reworking of the fluff; first it was their feud with the SW being written (by a SW player, I suspect) to make EJ look like a dick, now it's the split between the DA possibly being the (now tainted) Lion's fault? The DA started out as noble savage types, EJ was a 'slow to anger, but slower to forgive' honourable king arthur type.
I don't mind the idea that thousands of years of secrecy and insular behaviour has made the later DA/successors seem a bit sinister/singleminded/arrogant (s'good imagery), and the split in ideologies/points of view between 'Fallen' and 'Loyalist' is also fun. I play my own fallen as erstwhile loyalists, that refuse to submit to the judgment of the 'upstart' newcomers. I just dislike the idea that the DA have been the 'baddies' all along - the appeal of the split was the tradgedy of Luther's fall to chaos (EJ perhaps at fault for neglecting his best friend) and the ultimately pointless and unneccessary sundering of the legion and caliban by marines that were really still on the same side. The thousands of years of feuding and persecution since should be more than enough to generate an argument for supporting either side, without resorting to convoluted conspiracy theories...


#Rant off#

HiredSword.
03-07-2006, 11:23
hmm, i never read angels of darkness.

I didn't say the twist at the end was right, it's probably not stated as fact anywhere. I'm just a sucker for plot twists :D

Anyhoo, i think that a LatD army would be the fluffiest army to make while i still personally wouldn't have any problems with you doing 13th company.

You could mix between lists to see which one you think fits better.

Son of the Lion
04-07-2006, 10:38
Ahem. Yes, back on topic. :)

I've had a gander at 13th co rules and decided that, unless I substantially increase my numbers of fallen, the LatD codex fits better with the force I want to field. Once the new DA models are out on the other hand....

Tooooon
04-07-2006, 11:03
And I also have decided to go with LATD, even though it kinda beats my whole original "Cypher in moi army" point, but I can easily make him as a HQ character with dual mc pistols ;) hehe