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Rawdogg15
01-02-2015, 08:35
Quick question about this little bad boy. Does it just give the unit 6+ or does it improve their ward by one when facing war machine fire?

Example: a savage orc shaman with the lucky shrunken head confers a 5+ ward to a unit of savage orcs. If the shaman also has the ironcurse icon, does this become 4+ if they get shot by a bolt thrower or is it just a waste of an item because they already have the 5+ ward?


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eron12
01-02-2015, 08:52
Waste of item.

Rawdogg15
01-02-2015, 10:16
Waste of item.

Good to know. It seemed a bit too good for 5 points. Worth knowing. Thanks.


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Mr_Rose
01-02-2015, 11:11
Ward saves do not combine like armour saves, ever.
Don't let the existence of a few items and spells that specifically increase an existing ward save or, as an alternative if there's no existing ward to improve, give you one instead fool you into thinking otherwise.

Note that there's also nothing stopping you having several conditional ward saves to cover different circumstances (ironcurse icon, dragon helm, Parry, for example) however.

Andy p
01-02-2015, 14:53
Ward saves do not combine like armour saves, ever.


Apart from ward saves provided by magic resistance, which do stack with normal ward saves against damage caused by spells. At least as long as it is not a test or die spell.

Mr_Rose
01-02-2015, 15:07
Apart from ward saves provided by magic resistance, which do stack with normal ward saves against damage caused by spells. At least as long as it is not a test or die spell.

The very first line of the Magic Resistance rule is: "A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves…" (BRB p.72, 2nd col.)
The first line of the Magic Resistance rule is NOT: "A model with Magic Resistance has a ward save that combines like mundane armour…"

Vulgarsty
01-02-2015, 15:51
Ward saves do not combine like armour saves, ever.

...apart from Mark of Tzeench.....

Mr_Rose
01-02-2015, 16:57
...apart from Mark of Tzeench.....

Do any of you actually read more than the first line of any posts, ever?
Or any of the actual rules?

Masque
03-02-2015, 04:42
The very first line of the Magic Resistance rule is: "A model with Magic Resistance has a bonus to its ward saves…" (BRB p.72, 2nd col.)
The first line of the Magic Resistance rule is NOT: "A model with Magic Resistance has a ward save that combines like mundane armour…"

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here. To me, getting a bonus to your ward save is the same as combining. Do you consider it differently?

forseer of fates
03-02-2015, 11:31
Tzeentch ward save is adds too, not combine, so yes it is different.

Vulgarsty
03-02-2015, 23:07
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here. To me, getting a bonus to your ward save is the same as combining. Do you consider it differently?

I agree, which is why I raised the point to Mr Rose who took exception to it, and why I am referring him in turn to the OED

"add" To join (something) to something else so as to increase the amount, size, importance, etc.; to put in as an additional element or ingredient. Freq. with to. Cf....

"combine" To couple or join two or more things together
"Increase" To become greater in size, amount, duration, or degree; to be enlarged, extended, or intensified; to wax, grow.
"bonus" A boon or gift over and above (what is normally due as remuneration to the receiver),

So MoT combines with/adds to/stacks with/increases/gives a bonus to a ward save. An ironcurse icon/dragonbane gem is, as he says "conditional"/substitutable/asynchronous" etc

Re-reading it though, I think perhaps the issue is not a semantic debate, but that Mr Rose stated that "Ward saves do not combine like armour saves, ever". but then went on to qualify that unequivocal and emphatic statement with a "Don't let the existence of a few items and spells that specifically increase an existing ward save"...that may include a MoT and that was the second line that I didn't read (or rather disregarded) because he had already said this does not "ever" happen so I didn't know what he was on about.......

Bronhoms
04-02-2015, 14:30
Ironcurse Icon is only gook on a character in a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch. If you have a ridden monster and need to fill 5 points, go for it too.

BattleofLund
05-02-2015, 17:47
Ironcurse Icon is only gook on a character in a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch. If you have a ridden monster and need to fill 5 points, go for it too.

Do not agree. It sure is better in a MoT unit, but the Icon is good value-for-points in any WoC infantry or cavalry. Except Marauder foot.

Andy p
07-02-2015, 21:09
I agree, which is why I raised the point to Mr Rose who took exception to it, and why I am referring him in turn to the OED

"add" To join (something) to something else so as to increase the amount, size, importance, etc.; to put in as an additional element or ingredient. Freq. with to. Cf....

"combine" To couple or join two or more things together
"Increase" To become greater in size, amount, duration, or degree; to be enlarged, extended, or intensified; to wax, grow.
"bonus" A boon or gift over and above (what is normally due as remuneration to the receiver),

So MoT combines with/adds to/stacks with/increases/gives a bonus to a ward save. An ironcurse icon/dragonbane gem is, as he says "conditional"/substitutable/asynchronous" etc

Re-reading it though, I think perhaps the issue is not a semantic debate, but that Mr Rose stated that "Ward saves do not combine like armour saves, ever". but then went on to qualify that unequivocal and emphatic statement with a "Don't let the existence of a few items and spells that specifically increase an existing ward save"...that may include a MoT and that was the second line that I didn't read (or rather disregarded) because he had already said this does not "ever" happen so I didn't know what he was on about.......

This is basically why I mentioned magic resistance which is a regularly occurring rule beyond just a few items. I suppose it isn't that important really.

Although this sentence from the magic resistance section is interesting: "Magic resistance (2) would give a +2 bonus (turning a 5+ ward into a 3+ ward save, for example)"

Forgive me if I'm wrong but taking object 1 (MR 2) and object 2 ( 5+ ward) to produce object 3 (3+ ward) sounds like a definition of combining to me.

It's an odd mess as usual, since the section on armour saves on page 43 BRB mentions them as boosts and has a table for combinations. I just wanted to be accurate but I think instead it's made me a pedant. Who I'm sure will be condemned to be wrong.

It's all learning right? And everyone knows that what is said is not meant to be said and instead it was the other thing that was said, which I'm going to say in a minute.

See?