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Kurisu313
21-02-2015, 16:04
This is such a head-scratcher for me. It's fine that the Harlequins have a special FOC, but why make an army that can't play in a standard FOC?

And it'd be so easy! Just make the Solitaire an HQ. You probably don't want more than one anyway. And considering how restrictive the Harlequin FOC is, it's hard to go beyond 1500pts in a game that isn't unbound.

I literally don't understand this decision.

mightymconeshot
21-02-2015, 16:06
Because you can sell more. If all you need is a HQ model and 5 man troupe you can make it from a single box. By requiring the elites and or fast attack choices you can sell more things to people. Beside you can easily do bigger games. Add in a formation or two for what you are missing or want.

SimaoSegunda
21-02-2015, 16:34
The shadowseer not being a HQ unit is utterly bogus.

Adyger
21-02-2015, 16:45
I agree, the Shadowseer would make more sense than the Solitare, but a Great Harlequin would not have been too hard either.

Zion
21-02-2015, 16:47
Based on the fluff wouldn't the Troupe Master be the closest thing to an HQ? The choice to keep him in the box with the Troupe (and in the unit) might be part of the reason why he's not an HQ.

Voss
21-02-2015, 17:10
Just make the Solitaire an HQ.
And that would be entirely wrong. The solitaire isn't a leader, or even the kind of guy you want around- delve into background a bit and this is pretty much entirely unacceptable.

Zion
21-02-2015, 17:41
And that would be entirely wrong. The solitaire isn't a leader, or even the kind of guy you want around- delve into background a bit and this is pretty much entirely unacceptable.

Agreed. He's more of a LoW than anything.

Inquisitor Kallus
21-02-2015, 17:47
And that would be entirely wrong. The solitaire isn't a leader, or even the kind of guy you want around- delve into background a bit and this is pretty much entirely unacceptable.

Superfunhappylike!

Kurisu313
21-02-2015, 20:19
And that would be entirely wrong. The solitaire isn't a leader, or even the kind of guy you want around- delve into background a bit and this is pretty much entirely unacceptable.

Yes, I do know the fluff. I'm not suggesting that the Solitaire is a general, I'm saying putting him in HQ makes sense. For someone who can't be a leader, he can be your warlord! (Just no trait)

Not all HQs are leaders. Look at Commissar Lords.

SimaoSegunda
21-02-2015, 20:38
It surprises me a bit that a solitaire isn't a LoW, since fluff wise they really should be limited to 1 per army.

Thunderchylde
21-02-2015, 21:01
They are unique so they *are* one per army

SimaoSegunda
21-02-2015, 21:53
I... Erm... I knew that. :shifty:

megatrons2nd
21-02-2015, 22:01
Maybe it is preparation for a new "multi codex" FoC that uses units from all BB/nearly the same faction in a single chart. Maybe allowing Marines, Sisters, Guard, and what not in a single FoC, and Any/all Eldar in another.

Pink Horror
21-02-2015, 23:08
Because you can sell more. If all you need is a HQ model and 5 man troupe you can make it from a single box. By requiring the elites and or fast attack choices you can sell more things to people. Beside you can easily do bigger games. Add in a formation or two for what you are missing or want.
I was going to say it could have an in-game reason: maybe they do not think troupes should hold ground. Your reason is better. It goes along with the Tomb Blades requirement in the special Necron detachment.

Tuborg
22-02-2015, 01:38
Maybe for once they are listening to their own fluff? The Troupe Master leads the troupe and by extension The Dance. Also there are no leaders in the Harlequins beside The Laughing God.

Also it gels with the Eldar on one table, Imperium another as said above

ehlijen
22-02-2015, 04:23
I'm guessing harlies aren't meant to get a CAD because they're not meant to be a standing army that throws troops into meat grinders to take ground, ie what 'objective secured' is meant to represent. They are hit and fade support forces for other armies or special missions.

And why do you say there is an upper points limit without unbound? 40k is now written around the fact that you can take as many detachments as you want at any points level.

Althenian Armourlost
22-02-2015, 04:58
In the fluff, harlequins and rangers are equal societies. Leaders are not leaders officially, and never for long.

That is why there are no ranger sergeants, and harlequins have squad leaders as warlords.

chaospantz
22-02-2015, 05:18
I was really hoping that when the codex came out we would find that a deathjester or shadowseer could count as ether an HQ or elite. I would think that would make more people want feel like they can at least pick up a little taste of them as allies and more committed players going for the big detachment. I know that their are a couple players here that were thinking of at least picking up a box, but after seeing that to even use them in a bound list you have to pick up a round $150 to $200 of them they decided no.

Apologist
22-02-2015, 09:02
The capricious nature of the Laughing God is based around trickery and misdirection; his aims are confusing and unclear. Most of all, Ceglrach is famous for fleeing light-heartedly instead of meeting Slaanesh in battle.
Representing this in his followers by making capturing ground harder or less the focus of the plan is quite a fun way of making them play unlike a typical military force. Harlequins don't care about territory, so their goals have to revolve around the caprices of the random draw deck.

Harwammer
22-02-2015, 09:18
harlequins have squad leaders as warlords.

In fairness all armies can do this. There is no mandate for your character to be an HQ or even be the highest leadership model in the army anymore. It's simply a case of if you have any characters then one of those is warlord. If not then any model is warlord but gets no warlord trait. If you wanted you could even have an Ogryn Bonehead leading an Imperial Guard army :o.

Denny
22-02-2015, 10:22
I was really hoping that when the codex came out we would find that a deathjester or shadowseer could count as ether an HQ or elite. I would think that would make more people want feel like they can at least pick up a little taste of them as allies and more committed players going for the big detachment. I know that their are a couple players here that were thinking of at least picking up a box, but after seeing that to even use them in a bound list you have to pick up a round $150 to $200 of them they decided no.

Or you take the troupe, a death jester and shadow seer, and you have a formation.

They can still easily be included as allies.

earth127
22-02-2015, 11:49
ANd in this week's white dwarf they're talking about an unbound list, so for GW it's clear: use unbound .I guess if they keep this up eventually people are going to have to use unbound.

doloth
22-02-2015, 12:13
Given the smaller formations, which provide small 'allied detachment'-like groups, but specifically prohibit the independent characters from joining other units, I would suggest the lack of HQ is intentional in order to prevent cherry picking the best units/IC' s for other armies. And I for one welcome this move

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Brother Haephestus
22-02-2015, 12:49
This is such a head-scratcher for me. It's fine that the Harlequins have a special FOC, but why make an army that can't play in a standard FOC?

And it'd be so easy! Just make the Solitaire an HQ. You probably don't want more than one anyway. And considering how restrictive the Harlequin FOC is, it's hard to go beyond 1500pts in a game that isn't unbound.

I literally don't understand this decision.


ANd in this week's white dwarf they're talking about an unbound list, so for GW it's clear: use unbound .I guess if they keep this up eventually people are going to have to use unbound.

"Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army."

The formations are pretty open, from ones that are built on the exact structure of the Masque (Cegorach's Revenge) down to "cherry picking" one each of the elites (The Heroes' Path).

In other words, there's no forced money grab, no forced unbound play, they simply provided an alternate take on army building and gave you an ass-load of options. Enjoy them!

PS: Your Formations ...

3 Troupes, 3 Death Jesters, 3 Shadowseers, 1 Solitaire, 2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers (really just a full Masque)

3 Troupes, 2 units of Skyweavers, 3 Starweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

1 Troupe, 1 Death Jester, 1 Shadowseer

1 Troupe, 1 unit of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

1 Death Jester, 1 Shadowseer, 1 Solitaire

2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Tuborg
22-02-2015, 14:59
If you wanted you could even have an Ogryn Bonehead leading an Imperial Guard army :o.

They are called Commisars and you can get shot for calling them idiots ;)

Lord Damocles
22-02-2015, 16:27
Haephestus gets it.

You don't need a Combined Arms Detachment (or HQ) to make a bound army.

Baaltor
22-02-2015, 18:04
Yes, I do know the fluff. I'm not suggesting that the Solitaire is a general, I'm saying putting him in HQ makes sense. For someone who can't be a leader, he can be your warlord! (Just no trait)

Not all HQs are leaders. Look at Commissar Lords.

Yeah. I agree. HQ slots are also used to make choices that are 'elite than elite' like librarians, or chaplains. Elites are more like 1/5 rarity because of puissance, or just too specialised to be troops, while the HQ's are like 1/20. Those are very crude numbers, BTW. They can also be used for squads that exist 'outside' the force org., like techmarines, though i don't like this practice, and think that they should be elites, but whatever.

I'd object to Solitaires being the 'solitary' HQ choice in the army though. I really don't see why grande harlequins aren't available, especially in a 'codex'.

TheOldblood
23-02-2015, 00:26
It would have been cool to see a High Avatar or Grand Harlequin, but in practical terms there is no difference having DJs/SSs/Solitaires as they are now to having them as HQs. They are still single models....

Pink Horror
23-02-2015, 02:38
It would have been cool to see a High Avatar or Grand Harlequin, but in practical terms there is no difference having DJs/SSs/Solitaires as they are now to having them as HQs. They are still single models....

What about the difference in the thread-starter? No normal CAD? I don't have the Harlequin codex so I legitimately don't know if there's something equivalent available.

MajorWesJanson
23-02-2015, 03:24
The formations are pretty open, from ones that are built on the exact structure of the Masque (Cegorach's Revenge) down to "cherry picking" one each of the elites (The Heroes' Path).

In other words, there's no forced money grab, no forced unbound play, they simply provided an alternate take on army building and gave you an ass-load of options. Enjoy them!
[/U]

Pretty open is a relative term. I have Dark Eldar, and wanted to add a handful of Harlequin allies to it, to make use of my wych models that now sit on the shelf thanks to the last codex. I wanted to start small, with a HQ and a troupe in transport, and then one of the 3 elites. I could take that with an allied detachment if there was a HQ, but there isn't, and the closest formation is 1 Troupe, 1 Death Jester, 1 Shadowseer. The two characters MUST join the squad and cannot leave it, so the squad is now minimum 7 models, too big to fit in a starweaver, assuming I even really want a Shadowseer and Death Jester in my unit.

If I want to run a Solitare, I either must take a full masque, or take a Shadowseer and Death Jester as well, none of which can join units.

There is no way to run Voidweavers short of a full masque detachment without being forced to take a unit or more of jetbikes.

Yes, there are multiple formations. But that does not give us much in the way of variety, it just forces people into certain builds if we want to make a bound army. I don't even care if the Harlequins element have ObSec, I just want the ability to build a force to fit the harlequin units I want to run alongside my Dark Eldar and still have a Bound army. All it would have took would be 1 unit entry on one page, using a model from the Troupe box.

AndrewGPaul
23-02-2015, 08:28
There is a way to take a single Solitaire, or nothing but Voidweavers. If you don't want to use that option, or your peers have decided they don't want to play against it, that's unfortunate, but nothing to do with GW.

earth127
23-02-2015, 08:53
That Andrew is not a bad thing if you ask me. Single spammy lists are awful to play against. And if you only want to use cegorachs jest I'm guesing it's in combination with eldar or DE so you're going to have transports that can transport it. (battle brohters can use each others transports).

Sephillion
24-02-2015, 02:00
Because you can sell more. If all you need is a HQ model and 5 man troupe you can make it from a single box. By requiring the elites and or fast attack choices you can sell more things to people. Beside you can easily do bigger games. Add in a formation or two for what you are missing or want.

I'm sure GW is reasoning like that, but it doesn't work this way for everyone, so for each player who will "have to" buy more models to incorporate them in their army, there is probably one player who will refrain from buying any model at all instead. Maybe it balances off, maybe even a bit mroe profitable, but it's not a very customer friendly decision.

Or maybe it will be added at a later date. Like how people have hopes for Vect, Malys, etc.

Personally, I think it's bogus.

Still Standing
24-02-2015, 08:42
I can't see them adding HQ choices. Doesn't make much sense for a group of equals.

Paul Nexus
24-02-2015, 12:12
Personally I think gw are finding a decent balance of playability, bringing in money and fluff with a lot of the recent stuff.

Restrictions with bonuses or take what you want.

The lack of vect was a surprise, but considering his age and status, he shouldn't be an archon rolling in every raid.

The harlequins force is fluffy and playable, which should be a win win. They fight in their own way.

I'm not entirely sold on the HQs not having to be leaders thing though. In every codex I've read HQs are a form of officer or boss man, which would require a level of leadership already. Not read as many 7th books though so I might be missing something now

Emperor Karl Franz
24-02-2015, 13:23
Soiltaire's definitely shouldn't have been HQ units. That would have made them a required element of Harlequin forces, when that shouldn't be the case.

That being said, I really wish GW had put out a Great Harlequin to act as an HQ choice and represent the Laughing God himself.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Great_Harlequin

Chem-Dog
25-02-2015, 00:54
Back in RT days there was a High Avatar - who played the part of the Laughing God in the Dance, would it have been that hard to wheel that one back out as an HQ (perhaps pending a name change)? There were also High Warlocks (again, maybe in need of a name change) which have no contemporary equivalent. Mimes and their leader also apparently fell by the wayside, not that's directly relevant, but a Master Mime could have been a third HQ option - could have been done without needing extra models, just paint.

In short, I too am scratching my head.

Tuborg
25-02-2015, 01:40
Back in RT days there was a High Avatar - who played the part of the Laughing God in the Dance, would it have been that hard to wheel that one back out as an HQ (perhaps pending a name change)? There were also High Warlocks (again, maybe in need of a name change) which have no contemporary equivalent. Mimes and their leader also apparently fell by the wayside, not that's directly relevant, but a Master Mime could have been a third HQ option - could have been done without needing extra models, just paint.

In short, I too am scratching my head.

Avatars are very much Eldar only at this point on time.

I can also see why a Grand Jester wasn't included as you could make one out of the Troupe Master and a bitz box.

It would have been brilliant if we got a Wraith Construct or a more inspired relic table.

Still Standing
25-02-2015, 02:02
The High Avatar was completely unrelated to the Greater Daemon of Khaine that the Craftworlders drag to battle. Also, why (and how) would Harlequins have Wraiths? They do not wear Spiritstones, making it impossible for them to be entombed in a Wraith.

Hellebore
25-02-2015, 02:34
The harlquins recruit from all facets of the eldar civilisation. They themselves aren't a civilisation and rely entirely on recruitment. I doubt they'd be so Deathist as to deny recruitment to the walking dead... :p

This is to justify the fact that they used to have wraithlords in their list...

shin'keiro
25-02-2015, 03:26
Well...

1. It is to make money and sell more units. You need the elites and\or fast attack, heavy support choices to field the Harlequins.
2. The Great Harlequin has always been the HQ, however he\she has always been just a more powerful Troupe Master.
3. I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see a Dataslate come out in the future for the Great Harlequin, when Harlequin sales slump.

AndrewGPaul
25-02-2015, 14:25
The harlquins recruit from all facets of the eldar civilisation. They themselves aren't a civilisation and rely entirely on recruitment. I doubt they'd be so Deathist as to deny recruitment to the walking dead... :p

This is to justify the fact that they used to have wraithlords in their list...

Did they? They had dreadnoughts (i.e. an actual Harlequin driving a walker) but not Spirit-Warriors (i.e. walkers controlled by an Eldar soul).

Denny
25-02-2015, 15:07
The harlquins recruit from all facets of the eldar civilisation. They themselves aren't a civilisation and rely entirely on recruitment. I doubt they'd be so Deathist as to deny recruitment to the walking dead... :p

Waithlords can't dance. :(

Sephillion
25-02-2015, 15:36
Pretty open is a relative term. I have Dark Eldar, and wanted to add a handful of Harlequin allies to it, to make use of my wych models that now sit on the shelf thanks to the last codex. I wanted to start small, with a HQ and a troupe in transport, and then one of the 3 elites. I could take that with an allied detachment if there was a HQ, but there isn't, and the closest formation is 1 Troupe, 1 Death Jester, 1 Shadowseer. The two characters MUST join the squad and cannot leave it, so the squad is now minimum 7 models, too big to fit in a starweaver, assuming I even really want a Shadowseer and Death Jester in my unit.

If I want to run a Solitare, I either must take a full masque, or take a Shadowseer and Death Jester as well, none of which can join units.

There is no way to run Voidweavers short of a full masque detachment without being forced to take a unit or more of jetbikes.

Yes, there are multiple formations. But that does not give us much in the way of variety, it just forces people into certain builds if we want to make a bound army. I don't even care if the Harlequins element have ObSec, I just want the ability to build a force to fit the harlequin units I want to run alongside my Dark Eldar and still have a Bound army. All it would have took would be 1 unit entry on one page, using a model from the Troupe box.

Iím pretty much in the same situation.


Well...

1. It is to make money and sell more units.

Hardly; now, instead of buying a few kits/clampacks, Iíll buy nothing.

stopcallingmechief
25-02-2015, 16:38
And that would be entirely wrong. The solitaire isn't a leader, or even the kind of guy you want around- delve into background a bit and this is pretty much entirely unacceptable.


but what if thats the narrative i want to forge?

is it really any different than the guy who shows up to games with tau and nids or whatever other come the apocalypse allies that make zero sense from a fluff perspective

shin'keiro
25-02-2015, 17:26
That 'Come the Apocalypse' allies should be left to Apocalypse games ! As you say, it makes no sense. Personally I preferred the old FoC... with 1 HQ and 2 Troops mandatory.

Lord Damocles
25-02-2015, 19:39
but what if thats the narrative i want to forge?
Then the rules do allow for the Solitaire to be your warlord.

Hellebore
25-02-2015, 22:25
Did they? They had dreadnoughts (i.e. an actual Harlequin driving a walker) but not Spirit-Warriors (i.e. walkers controlled by an Eldar soul).

Well dreadnoughts became wraithlords. There currently isn't a dreadnought. The warwalker was an entirely different unit and they didn't have those.

I suppose you could argue that harlequin driven warwalkers would make more sense.

Meh. I like the idea that a craftworld spirit feels the calling of Cegorach after death and leaves the craftworld to join a troupe. The cultural and practical questions raised are more interesting.


Waithlords can't dance. :(

But that's part of the bittersweet tragedy that the Dance of Two Left Feet in Lileath's Moonlight is trying to get across to you. Do the dead dance with two left feet? :p

It's art. Justification is run entirely on ********.

Chem-Dog
26-02-2015, 16:06
Avatars are very much Eldar only at this point on time.

The character was the avatar of the Laughing God, not a manifest shard of the murder God doing jazz (bloody) hands... ;)


I can also see why a Grand Jester wasn't included as you could make one out of the Troupe Master and a bitz box.

By that rationale, no characters would get made. Flip it on its head, GW could easily knock out a slightly more pimp version of a Harly, perhaps equipped with relic, and stick a £16 price tag on it and sell a metric shedload.



I like the idea that a craftworld spirit feels the calling of Cegorach after death and leaves the craftworld to join a troupe. The cultural and practical questions raised are more interesting.

Would anybody on a Craftworld act to prevent a Spirit joining the Dance? I'm inclined to believe such souls would be aided as a matter of course.

Still Standing
26-02-2015, 16:27
Regular Wraithguard do not, because they do not have enough awareness of the material world to do so. Those who do, the Lords and Seers, are so rare that it doesn't matter, relatively.

Hellebore
27-02-2015, 00:25
Regular Wraithguard do not, because they do not have enough awareness of the material world to do so. Those who do, the Lords and Seers, are so rare that it doesn't matter, relatively.

If marneus calgars and abbadons can show up to every battle, that rare wraithlord that joined a harlequin troupe can too.

The game doesn't care about rarity - in fact it loves it. It makes things seem special. We have half a game built around something that is statistically one of the most rare military structures in the galaxy - the space marine chapter. Each marine on a tabletop is itself a rare snowflake in the context of the universe.

There are probably more harlequin wraithlords than there are chapter masters (at 1001 it's not hard...).

Bob Hunk
27-02-2015, 12:39
There are probably more harlequin wraithlords than there are chapter masters (at 1001 it's not hard...).

And there are certainly more Harlequin Wraithlords than there are Chapter Masters with the Burning Blade, Shield Eternal and a bike in their personal armouries. ;)

Tuborg
27-02-2015, 12:40
If marneus calgars and abbadons can show up to every battle, that rare wraithlord that joined a harlequin troupe can too.

The game doesn't care about rarity - in fact it loves it. It makes things seem special. We have half a game built around something that is statistically one of the most rare military structures in the galaxy - the space marine chapter. Each marine on a tabletop is itself a rare snowflake in the context of the universe.

There are probably more harlequin wraithlords than there are chapter masters (at 1001 it's not hard...).

We have a faction that doesnt operate outside of 1-5 (5-15 if situ is desperate) marines at a time on special missions for inquisitors. Yet you can field 50+ Grey Knights in a list.