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ss_cherubael
29-06-2006, 14:02
hey i have recently started playing a radical inquisitor army that has three deamon hosts in it. When using them i was a bit dismayed to find out that these deamon hosts did not have the equivalent of a power weapon or a power that gave them the ability to ignore armour saves. Yet they have a power that increases their already high strength by a D3, but no rending ability or power weapon ability??????????????
I think this is a major flaw in the rules as the fluff that surrounds the deamon hosts (Eisenhorn--> Cherubael, Prophaniti) makes them out to be able to rip through power armour like it didnt exist while being super strong!!!!! now i know you are all going to scream but its balanced and you get stacks for the points you pay, but i would fork out another 5-10 pts for the rending ability or ignoring saves ability if it was always in play, and if it had to be a psychic power i think swap out the warp strength power as the host is already S6.

what do you think??????

Grimtuff
29-06-2006, 14:07
Huzzah for the Moon on a stick :rolleyes:

Daemonhosts are fine as is, the "major flaw in the rules" that you state is the prelevance of SM and MEQ armies, thus you believe you "need" to have more power weapons.

Besides Daemonhosts are not meant to be charging big squads of power armoured troops anyway. That's your own silly fault.

boogle
29-06-2006, 14:28
Yep, they are better off being used as terror troops scaring things away from them and towards your other bigger guns

ss_cherubael
29-06-2006, 15:28
hmmm the other bigger guns that you speak of hmmmmmm, maybe thats what i was missing!

sadly i think its time GW realised that the majority of armies are SM power armoured armies and make the rest accordingly

ghost hunter
29-06-2006, 15:36
are radical inqisitors and demon hosts in demonhunters codex?

vcassano
29-06-2006, 15:45
Not all daemons are like Cherubael or Prophanati, many are more scheming types relying on their psychic abilities to manipulate and affect the world, so these types shouldn't have a power weapon for a start. Also the two daemons mentioned are incredibly powerful daemon princes(IIRC?) that would require an immensely powerful Inquisitor to ensnare. Most daemonhosts would be weaker than these two for example, and therefore might not be able o tear through power armour.

kermit
29-06-2006, 15:53
I find that my daemonhosts are "**** off" minis. They have the ability to tie up units for a very long time. If you roll correctly, you can get a carnifex to be bogged down in CC for 5 turns. It was great! I have also had one of mine take out a unit of Obliterators. It effectively took away my opponent's heavy weapons for about 4 turns of a game.

I have also, on the other hand have had mine not last a turn either...

So, they are a hit/miss unit, but for me they have hit more than they have missed... and that is good.

Grimtuff
29-06-2006, 16:01
are radical inqisitors and demon hosts in demonhunters codex?

Where else would they be? :eyebrows:

Kriegsherr
29-06-2006, 16:56
Where else would they be? :eyebrows:

In the chaos Codex for example? Where daemonhosts should be? And radical Inquisitors alike? :evilgrin:

Daemonhosts are perfect. They are random, but have a big potential for nastyness. And scare the **** out of most opponent just because of one of six psy-powers they could get this turn. I've seen players change their tactics for a 16 % chance that one of the psy powers can be used this turn. And thats what makes Deamonhosts so hilarious. If you're looking for highstrength power weapons look somewhere else. Or make a houserule for your very special deamonhost. With name and fluff. Why not?

boogle
29-06-2006, 17:29
there aren't really any particular rules for Radical Inquisitors beyond no GK, but taking a Inquisitor, Daemonhosts, Death Cultists, an Assassin maybe and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Inducted Guard is a good way of making a radical Inquisitor, as is taking an IG army with Allied Inquisitor and then taking the Daemonhunter and Witchunter adversary rules

cerealkiller195
29-06-2006, 18:09
you can't expect your host to do everything. They aren't one man armies, but they sure can hold them up! Most players will go out of their way to pour an amazing amount of firepower just to bring them down. I once had my host gain +3 toughness took about 2 platoons full of guardsmen fire.. only to regenerate them all on my turn. When my friend went again to kill it he did 3 wounds and he just reknit himself!

Cruentus
29-06-2006, 18:56
I just played my first game using my new Radical DH army, and included two Dhosts. With the game being against Tau, the Dhosts performed really well. While one eventually got shot up by 3 crisis suits (he barely took his 4th wound), the other took on a 12 man Firewarrior squad single handedly and won every round (iirc, he rolled 28 attacks over 3 close combat phases - gotta love double attacks :)

I agree with what others have posted, it is the unpredictability that causes problems with the opponent - one turn he could be a S7, T7 monster, another he could pin everything within 12". Of course, in my game, I had the Dhost right in the midst of my stormtroopers, and rolled the 'terrify' power twice in a row. That was lost of pinned stormtroopers :eek:

That being said, they are more than capable of tying up Dev Squads, or other smaller MEQ squads that are not close combat specialists...

Oberon
29-06-2006, 19:21
Sometimes they work wonders(one of the one host in my 1k army took single handedly entire half of the board, 2 units of sisters :P and in other game 3 hosts just died doing nothing). Personally I just love teleport, time shift coming close second, re-knit is top when wounded and that blast+terrify usually come on th first turn ;( They are cool, unpredictable(cood and bad), and scary if opponent knows what they can do(the look of one opponent's face was amazing when 2 host got 22 attacks on charge :DDD). I play radicals for fluff/fun, not for power. For competiveness(in DH scale) I take puritans. No power weapons at all is bad.

Grimtuff
29-06-2006, 21:47
you can't expect your host to do everything. They aren't one man armies, but they sure can hold them up! Most players will go out of their way to pour an amazing amount of firepower just to bring them down. I once had my host gain +3 toughness took about 2 platoons full of guardsmen fire.. only to regenerate them all on my turn. When my friend went again to kill it he did 3 wounds and he just reknit himself!

Psssst

You are aware that if you rolled a 3 the Lasguns could not actually hurt it being T7 and all. ;)

Chem-Dog
29-06-2006, 22:14
Not all daemons are like Cherubael or Prophanati, many are more scheming types relying on their psychic abilities to manipulate and affect the world, so these types shouldn't have a power weapon for a start. Also the two daemons mentioned are incredibly powerful daemon princes(IIRC?) that would require an immensely powerful Inquisitor to ensnare. Most daemonhosts would be weaker than these two for example, and therefore might not be able o tear through power armour.

You don't think what Cherubael did to Eisenhorn is scheming enough? There is a good argument for making DaemonHosts Rending but I would be tempted to make it one of their random powers...

It could be cool to build your own Daemonhost in a similar (but lot less effective) way as you would a Daemon Prince.

Mortare
29-06-2006, 22:40
At no point do the daemonhosts in eisenhorn go up against power armour, so why do they need power weapons. I agree with the general view, they are random elements and ok as they are

Inq. Veltane
29-06-2006, 22:52
Well, personally I think that if you can rip through a Titan then you can probably manage power armour...

Mortare
29-06-2006, 23:08
he just goes to the heart of the titan and makes its reactor go boo, doesnt mean he goes thru the armour

NashTrickster
30-06-2006, 00:48
Warning! Spoilers for the Eisenhorn Trilogy!
(highlight to read)

If you've read the whole Eisenhorn trilogy you know that even Cherubael sees his power limited when Eisenhorn reinforces the wards to make sure Cherubael won't escape his control...
The "uber powerful" Cherubael you're talking about (rending through power armour like if it was butter) is more of a "free demon" than daemonhost (Cherubael was even able to manipulate Eisenhorn into doing things against Quixos, which shows IMO how week the warding was). Moreover, Quixos was more of a Chaos Magos than a Radical Inquisitor after hundreds of years on the path of damnation.
Actually, rules-wise, I'd use the Chaos Codex for Quixos's army and the Daemon-Prince rules for "his" Cherubael and Prophanati...
So, don't be surprised that the Daemonhosts from the Daemonhunter list, which are supposed to represent heavily warded creatures created by Radicals who retain most of their sanity, are not as powerful as the "lightly warded" Cherubael in the first and second Eisenhorn novel...

And as far as destroying the Titan is concerned: Cherubael was not a "Daemonhost" at that moment, Eisenhorn frees it from its flesh-prison to perform that spectacular feat...

Skyth
30-06-2006, 03:40
The biggest problem with daemonhosts is the Toughness 4 allowing them to be insta-killed by power fists/lascannons.

They should have at least a toughness 5 and/or be immune to insta-death.

And I always thought it was weird that when they have warp strength and strength 9, that a flak jacket will protect a guardsman that got hit by them...

ss_cherubael
30-06-2006, 05:42
yeah that was what was annoying, but in my case it was a gaunt that managed to hang on and pass his save! i know that the deamons material form is only as strong as their hosts body and all but still it would make a bit more sense if they dropped the warp strength power for either a toughness gaining power or for rending something like that! As for the guy who would like to think that some deamons are just schemeing little bastards who use their powers to manipulate, well they all do that, but at the same time they are still a fething deamon!!!!! and they can still do a hell of a lot in combat. The other argument for this is that deamon princes are monstorus creatures and as such ignore armour, a deamon host does not have this luxury so i still believe that bump the points up to 90 or even 100 and give him rending or a power weapon or a power that does the same!!!!!!

PS: i like the idea about making a deamon host the same way that you do a deamon prince, it would allow you to make the more schemeing tyoes and the ones that cant be bothered with all that crap and just want to rip off heads!!!

Kriegsherr
30-06-2006, 10:51
The biggest problem with daemonhosts is the Toughness 4 allowing them to be insta-killed by power fists/lascannons.

They should have at least a toughness 5 and/or be immune to insta-death.

And I always thought it was weird that when they have warp strength and strength 9, that a flak jacket will protect a guardsman that got hit by them...

That my friend is the AP System brought into the game with 3rd ed. Weird, Strange, not actually any realistic (No, I don't want to discuss modern day bulletproof armour I'm well aware of their characteristics), but simple and fast (or so GW seems to think about it).

Up to now noone at GW seemed to care to change it, and as long as most people seem to be happy with it, they wont do.
And as long as this AP Systems is in place, the "Why don't my S10 superdemon go thru flak armour?" Question will remain. And its a damned good question.

But once again, its a game, its far from beeing realistic (and in some cases thats quite good. Would you like to test for every marine trying to get onto the upper levels of a building to see if he just crashes through the stairs to weak for his weight? If jump marines can land on a roof or if they just crash through it? If marines can destroy a building by running through it? the list is endless)

So houserule away what you can't live with and live with the other incosistencies.