PDA

View Full Version : Collection of all quotes related to primarchs fighting primarchs



Rufiodies
26-02-2015, 00:10
So I was reading ravens flight, where Corax is stuck on Istvaan about to be killed by angron and a huge frothing barbarian force of his sons and he thinks about how Angron WILL kill him in the coming fight. 1 on 1, Corax KNOWS Angron will beat him, badly it seems, as sure as water is wet and fire is hot.

Then we have Lorgar, who was almost killed by Corax during Istvaan, Corax knew exactly where the cancer was in the legions and went to excise it with all the hatred that legion scale betrayal could bring on in a primarch. Now unlike Dorn who i'll get too, instead of being in fear of Corax, Lorgar used the experience as motivation to become stronger, to really grow into his own. Now I wonder how this will effect them both if they meet on Terra or somewhere else. Corax doesn't seem to be too emotional, he's very logical in his reasoning, he accepts things as they are and moves on.


This got me thinking, in one of the novels Dorn muses about fighting Angron "Split his head with no compunction" that Fulgrim was "a singular foe" and that although Horus is the best of them, he did not "fear" facing him in battle. now if this is any insight into what he thinks his actually CHANCES are against each of them, or not, I do not know, he only says that he would fight them with no fear, not that he thought his own abilities were up to the task.
But he does fear Curze, not because of Curze being a terrifying opponent, which he is, but due to Dorn's failure dealing with Curze's visions regarding the heresy.
He fears failing the Emperor more than anything, so it seems he see's his opponents as tests to be overcome in the Emperors name. and Curze is a big failure on his part. I wonder if they will see each other on terra and how this will effect Dorn.

Then we have Curze again, screwing with The Lion, the perfect match up if you wanted to drive the Lion over the edge, which is exactly what happened, the Lion is totally driven nutz during the Thramas Crusade, but I'm not too sure how this will effect him in the long run.

Curze sees his brothers simply as the most exquisite prey to hunt, trophies really. His near death by The Lion doesn't seem to have done anything other than push his personality to the Night Haunter side rather than the more sane Konrad Curze, but knowing his death, he simply has no fear, is fear, almost, he gets a little iffy when you drop a daemon centipede in his lap but that aside...

So what i'm getting at here, is I want to get a collect of all the moments where the primarchs think about facing their brothers, or are facing their brothers in combat, not so much who is the better fighter, but I want to know their thoughts leading up to, or during the fights, what drives them, hatred, betrayal, duty, hunger, fear, what they think of their chances, if they think of their chances, really how their interactions against each other have changed them and what state of mind they are in currently.

Kiro
26-02-2015, 00:48
No direct quotes off the top of my head, but...

As you said, Corax believes no other Primarch can best him in combat but Angron or Horus. Ballsy, considering his flight from Night Haunter.

Angron was more than willing to go toe to toe with Russ, then Vulkan, then Guilliman, though whether this is him gauging their fighting abilities or the Butchers Nails filling him with pseudo-confidence, who knows.

Night of The Wolf and Prospero aside, Russ thinks he can take Alpharius and Horus.

From Aurelian Lorgar is more than willing to fight Sanguinius and Guilliman; both he was shown to be able to kill, but he was then killed in turn for Sanguinius' death.

Megatron
26-02-2015, 17:28
I am not 100 percent sure of this buy didn't Corax believe a lucid konrad curze would be hard for him to deal with.

Rufiodies
02-03-2015, 08:14
No direct quotes off the top of my head, but...

As you said, Corax believes no other Primarch can best him in combat but Angron or Horus. Ballsy, considering his flight from Night Haunter.



I think Sevatar mentions that he'd never seen his primarch in a "fair fight" something the Night Lords HATE btw, before his fight with The Lion at the end of the Thramas Crusade. He mentions that Konrad's fight with Corax was a sneak attack after Corax was tired from hours (?) of fighting on Istvaan and also weakened by the very treachery of the moment, and the first fight with The Lion was a low blow, and the second fight was a low blow vice versa. From the Lions perspective it seems to be that he thinks that he should be able to kill Konrad no problem, his "Just die already" or "Fall" or whatever he says though kinda makes it seem like he's not so sure
"WHY WONT YOU DIE!!!" aka WHY CAN'T I KILL YOU?!?!

Konrad just excels at driving his brothers totally insane, probably some aoe psychic effect of his infectious madness. He's so crazy that being around him makes you crazy
I guess knowing when your going to die means you know when your not going to die, a nice mental edge in any fight.

but back to the quote, I don't think that Konrad could stand up to Corax in a "fair fight" as far as abilities go.
also
What is it that Corax says about Angron? Corax is an avatar of battle, but Angron is battle incarnate or something along those lines.

Karhedron
02-03-2015, 09:25
Not from his PoV but in "Fear to Tread", someone observes that only Angron or Horus would stand a chance of beating Sanguinius in a fight.

I think the interesting thing is that we do not have an objective list of the Primarchs in terms of power. We get to see some of them fight and we get to see how some of them think about their brothers but that is very much coloured by their perceptions and not necessarily a true reflection of their strengths or abilities.

For example, Dorn is not afraid of facing Horus despite the fact that Horus later kills Sanguinius and very nearly beats the Big E. Now, does Dorn know something about Horus's fighting style or strengths that no one else does? In which case, why did he not share it? Or does it simply reflect the fact that Horus is a straight-forward opponent? If Dorn beats Horus, the heresy is over. If Horus wins the Dorn will be dead and nothing matters any more (a slightly Orky perspective).

Night Haunter mauled Dorn and fled leaving him humiliated but alive. A fight against Horus would be either death or victory, probably a preferable option to someone like Dorn.

gwarsh41
02-03-2015, 18:14
I feel that all the primarchs fighting prowess is very, very similar. Match up any 2 and you will have a very close fight. Look at Russ, who is supposed to be a crazy battle berserker only beaten on the crazy scale by Angron. However Magnus, who is not known for his physical prowess, gave Russ a hard time.
The often mentioned (by DA players) bout between the Lion and the Wolf, while was only a fistfight, lasted days, and was considered a draw. Leman Russ stopped fighting and laughed at how silly it was for brothers to fight, and Lion punched him for laughing. The only info we have about primarchs fighting to kill are from the HH, and even then it doesn't give us much info.

Rufiodies
02-03-2015, 18:44
Well when you compare a Primarchs prowess in single combat, to their abilities as a leader, its kinda like leveling a character in a rpg, you can't have it all. (Unless your Horus) Angron would be the best example, completely worthless as a leader besides being a figurehead. This shows in the Russ vs Angron fight, Angron beat Russ but would have lost the battle. Then you have Alpharius/Omegon on the other side of that, No one is going to say that they'd be able to beat any of their brothers in a straight up fight, but they would command circles around some/most of them. Then you like Perturabro who I would put on the upper tier of strategy but he lacks the ... personality? mentality? to really deal with his warriors or inspire them.

The traitors seems to be lacking in the leadership department, Horus mentions this something about being stuck with monsters and psychopaths. There's a Night Lords quote about the Imperials discipline/following orders, something along the lines of "say what you want, at least the imperials don't get in each others way" I can't remember if this was HH quote from Sev, or from Talos after the heresy.

Haskear
02-03-2015, 19:47
Sadly Sanguinius for me, was not portrayed well in FtoT. But he managed "in the old fluff" to land a blow on the chaos combined supercharged Horus which gave Emp the chink he needed when he finally decided to obliterate him, after he had taken a pounding and from what we are lead to believe, felt Horus could still be redeemed. Perhaps giving us a further idea to understanding how potent Sanguinius was as a duelist.

Karhedron
02-03-2015, 22:32
I agree, Fear to Tread was disappointing as a BA fan. Gav Thorpe made Corax a likable character and inspiring leader despite minimal previous character development. James Swallow's Sanguinius fails to leap off the page despite (or perhaps because of) the wealth of existing material.

Theophilis
03-03-2015, 04:28
Just read Vengeful Spirit and Russ is only unsure of being able to kill Horus. Any of the other primarchs he feels completely confident that he could take them out. Of course, I don't think this means solely one on one, but that some of his brothers he would take out personally, where as others, as seen with Angron, he would outmaneuver either strategically or tactically, but Horus outstrips him in both areas. Which is funny because this comes fairly soon after he was mauled by the Alpha legion and I just don't see him ever being able to capture those slippery bastards.

Also the Khan fought Mortarion almost to a stand still and eventually the Death Lords endurance was wearing him down, but he seemed fairly confident of being able to take down Fulgrim. And judging by Roboute's reactions, the Lion is much faster than himself, but I don't think that really surprises anyone.

Rufiodies
03-03-2015, 04:50
Which is funny because this comes fairly soon after he was mauled by the Alpha legion and I just don't see him ever being able to capture those slippery bastards.
You have to remember that this is IMMEDIATELY after Prospero, so you can't really consider this a "fair fight", not that the Alpha's even condone that, but the SW were pretty badly mauled already after destroying one legion, then had to fight through another in battles that didn't favor the SW at all.

but yeah this is what I was saying, some of the primarchs just weren't built to lead, either they were just unskilled leaders or completely crazy.

I like that the author depicted Morty as unlikable, which is consistant with every other author's depiction of him, and the Khan as unknowable, I literally didn't know how to feel about the Khan, he just doesn't stick in my thoughts, which is perfect imo. Also almost every other primarch mentions hating morty from the get go.
I mention this because in the Iron Warriors novels I actually really started to root for Perturabo, who is depicted throughout the fluff as hard to get along with, and not just because he was fighting Fulgrim, who I despise completely.

Silversage
03-03-2015, 12:44
A Primarch is many things, but mostly he is judged by his abilities as a leader, a warrior and a strategist because of their position at the head of the Emperor's armies. It is therefore very difficult to write up a decisive list of who would beat who as it is very dependant on the circumstances, who would have the initiative, how the fight would happen etc.

Ferrus Manus fought Fulgrim at Istvaan and lost, losing his life in the process. Fulgrim may or may not have beaten him in a fair fight, but during that particular fight he cheated and had a daemon to assist him. Ferrus was one of strongest, if not THE strongest, of all the Primarchs (and would have challenged any one of them) which was as difficult for Fulgrim to deal with as Fulgrim's swordsmanship was a problem for Ferrus. Fulgrim's been doing nothing but cheating ever since (being a Daemon Prince and all) so we can't be sure how he would fare without his extra hacks. Fulgrim probably thinks he can take anybody and most likely wouldn't care even if he lost, just because he gets kicks out of pain too. Nonetheless, I'd probably rank both of them as being able to go toe-to-toe with most other Primarchs.

Corax beat the crap out of Lorgar on Istvaan and would have ended him if it hadn't been for Curze. Lorgar was also struggling with Guilliman in Betrayer before Angron charged in. In fact, I think he at some point (on Istvaan?) acknowledges that his strengths are not martial and focuses on other endeavors, like meddling with the Warp. Overall, I think Lorgar is one of the weakest Primarchs in terms of fighting skills (albeit one of the more charismatic leaders).

Corax did successfully fight at least a couple of his traitor brothers and even though he probably would not have survived a fight with Angron, I'd still rank him pretty high in terms of fighting strength. He believes so himself too (which, with him being a realist, is probably pretty true) and isn't afraid to prove it.

Angron... well, there are plenty of references from Primarchs and marines alike saying he's the top dog when it comes to fighting. That just comes at the cost of everything else.

The only ones referenced as being able to beat Angron were Horus (if you think Fulgrim's cheating you haven't seen nothing yet) and Sanguinius. However, if I remember correctly, in Fear to Tread Sanguinius doubts himself in this regard, although after ripping Ka'Bandha a new one he's pretty much over it. Like was said earlier, it says a whole lot about Sanguinius' skills that he managed to hit Horus after he had activated his godmode cheats. Horus was the top dog in overall effectiveness, although I actually think he was matched pretty equally in any one single aspect by some of his brothers (as a fighter, Sanguinius and Angron, as a strategist the Lion, as a leader Guilliman, Dorn and Lorgar).

This is way too long a post already so I'm going to stop here. Someone else can take it from here with the rest.

Aranel
03-03-2015, 18:14
The Lion: Acts with confidence when Guilliman pins him against a wall,even record against Kurze, generally considered as a top swordsman & duellist.
Fulgrim: beats Ferrus (with daemonic assistance), beats Guilliman (as a daemon), thinks he can take the Khan and Mortarion but is not known for being modest!
Petarabo: not a lot that I can remember
The Khan: even fight with Mortarion, thinks he can take Fulgrim, considered a great swordsman
Russ: thinks he can take everyone although he doubts himself against Horus. Drew a punch up with the lion, lost a duel to Angron and won a close fight against Magnus. Heavily implied that he and his legion destroyed the two missing legions.
Dorn: savaged by Kurze (& fears him), is not daunted by any of the other traitor primarchs.
Kurze: honours even with the Lion, beats up Dorn, scares off Corax, holds his own against the Lion & Guilliman, scuffles with Vulkan (a lot!)
Sanguinius: loses to über Horus, considered by Lorgar to be one of two primarchs able of taking Horus (Angron being the other), Corax thinks only Horus and Sanguinius can beat Angron.
Ferrus Manus: him and Vulkan are physically strongest primarchs, lost to Fulgrim but arguably was winning until Fulgrim became possessed.
Angron: beats Russ, beats Guilliman, Corax knows he can't beat Angron, one of two who can stand toe to toe with Horus & Sanguinius
Guilliman: beaten by daemonic Fulgrim, Angron, him and the Lion held by Kurze, acknowledges the Lion is quicker than him.
Mortarion: thinks he will crush Fulgrim, fights to a standstill against the Khan
Magnus: loses to Russ, but makes him suffer!
Horus: only physical equals are Angron & Sanguinius, Russ thinks he might be able to take him, honours even between him and Corax in practise cages.
Lorgar: beaten by Corax, on the back foot against Guilliman until Angrons intervention, the primarch who didn't want to be a warrior.
Vulkan: Scrapped with Kurze, says he held back against him, strongest of the Primarchs
Corax: see Horus, Curze, Lorgar, Angron
Alpharius: nothing that I can recall

Based on the books so far, I would rank them thus:

Tier 1: Horus, Angron, Sanguinius
Tier 2: Russ, the Lion, Kurze, the Khan,
Tier 3: Fulgrim, Ferrus, Magnus, Mortarion, Corax
Tier 4: Dorn, Guilliman, Vulkan, Petarabo,
Tier 5: Alpharius, Lorgar

Rufiodies
03-03-2015, 19:16
I'm going to have to disagree with a few of these.
Curze attacked another primarch in cold blood. Dorn would NEVER have struck back, low blow, not accurate. I wouldn't say "even" with the lion. the first fight was low blows all around, the second fight he got demolished "FALL!" I think Konrad Curze might have died in that fight and Night Haunter survived. and the third he lost, sacrificing his 1st company ( I think that was his goal all along so maybe he won... ) The one thing I will say about the Thramas Crusade is that Curze came out stronger and crazier than ever in the guise of the Night Haunter, and The Lion was mentally ruined and ultimately corrupted, although you could say he was corrupted before that. (watchers)
Legion on Legion? I'd say they both came out hurting, but the Night Lords did their job of holding the Dark Angels up with a little crazy on top

Corax was weak from betrayal and fighting for hours, Curze was fresh on the field, not a fair fight, low blow to boot.
Ferrus vs Fulgrim, its hard to say, Ferrus had the fight won but he pulled his blow out of love for his brother, so again, not a measure of abilities
We could say with Russ vs Angron, that Russ wasn't truely being unleashed by the Emperor. unsanctioned killing of another primarch? Not gonna happen with the "wolves"
But again, Angron would have killed russ but lost his legion and then his life.
The thing about Angron, i'm sure you can see a trend, where the loyalists aren't prepared mentally for killing one of their brothers, and ultimately, it was the deciding factor, No such qualms from Angron, he would split the Emperors "head with no compunction", had he the strength to do so. He's always 100 percent, you can't tug on his heart strings, the only thing you can do is lead him into a trap then bury him, and even that doesn't work. Now that he's a daemon prince, I don't see anyone standing against him 1 on 1, besides the big E and Horus God Mode. He can't be scared by Curze's aoe madness, he can't be Lorgar psychic blasted, I wonder if the Emperor could even use Psychics against him? Would Khorne be able to protect him?

and your tier is pure dueling right?
I would group the primarchs into like 4 or 5 ven diagram type circles, Duelests, Strategists, Psychics, Leadership, and Personality and put them all in varying places
for example, the Lion, great duelest/strategist/Not a great leader, lets his legion break in two/ and he's crazy as all get out, paranoid androi.... i mean transhuman.
then you have Angron, Best duelest/no strategy/psychic in that he's protected from psychics/No leadership, but he's a figurehead for his legion/Crazy as all get out.
Horus on the other hand is Best duelest/great strategy/psychic powers... we dunno/Mad leadership, makes people love him!/Personality is as good as it gets

Does anyone have a better system for rating the primarch's totally?

Also, if you remember, Vulkan bitch slapped Curze after years of being killed over and over, so Vulkan is a better 1v1 than Curze.
I would group the Duelists like this

1. Horus, Angron, Sanguinius
2. Russ, The Lion, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Dorn, Corax, Khan
3. Vulkan, Perturabo, Magnus, Morty, Curze
4. Guilliman
5 Alpha/Omegon/Lorgar

but remember as Morty says "we were made for different fights" so just because A beat B, and C beat A doesn't mean that C can beat B

Aranel
03-03-2015, 21:32
The rankings were based purely for melee yes. Purely my own thoughts but the higher rankings were allocated to Primarchs who would more consistently beat their brothers. I completely agree that A>B , B>C does not equal A >C

Putting aside unfair, ambush, one party wasn't trying etc we can only work with the sources to hand. In regards to Angron & Russ, one was crawling away at the end of the duel.

Thramas: round 1: the lion strikes the first blow and still needs a legionary intervention to prevent death.
round 2: the Lion kicks the night haunted into the dirt
round 3: an even duel with Kurze having to withdraw due to the flow of battle.
Round 4: The Lion almost ambushes Kurze but is given away by his vox
Round 5: Kurze fights Gulliman and the Lion singlehanded, wounds the lion and almost kills both.

Fairly even in my book. I don't understand the point about the corruption though. The Lion had grown up on a daemon world, resisted the lures of chaos all his life and yes Kurze got inside his head a bit but corrupted? Possibly a statement too far.

We could discuss the whys, where forces, accuracy etc for every primarch fight but the vast majority of any argue meant would be based on subjective data. X fought Y & X died is fact, X died because he was tired is conjecture (for the most part).

Rufiodies
04-03-2015, 00:22
I meant he was either already corrupted, or corrupted himself by his choices, aka using his librarians, and using the warp "device"
The Lion mentions himself that it is the vision that Curze presents to the Lion that is causing him such stress, that his legion will turn against him on caliban.
You can see his state of mind start to break, he kills his own "little brother" in a moment of SATISFACTION, he sits in his throne room all the time talking to little creatures with eyes of fire and claws of iron that cannot be harmed. He mistrusts everyone, he's broken, and it causes him to make choices that will ultimately corrupt him. if he's not already corrupted by the Watchers.

Did the Lion strike the first blow? I thought that Curze was trying to kill the Lion the whole time while also telling him about the vision, I could see the Lion being a little distracted, Then Curze managed to tear through The Lion's throat.
Also, sev mentions that round 3 is the FIRST time he's seen Curze in a fair fight.
anyways, I thought that Curze struck a low blow in round 1 and corswain had to save him by shoving his sword into Curze's back
As I read more, I realized that its also the events at Diamat with Perturabo that causes The Lion to distrust his brothers so, he says something along the lines of "never again will I take a brothers word"

But yes, I believe that Curze has some aoe psychic effect that causes madness and fear, even in primarchs.

My idea for this thread was originally to get the quotes of the primarchs thinking about fighting their brothers, either before, during, after, that kinda stuff, so we can see into their state of mind as the Heresy goes on. I wanted to see how they felt their chances were, or how they felt about killing someone who was once an ally, or someone they fear as with Curze, more to see how it made them feel, than who would beat who in a fight.

Kiro
04-03-2015, 06:21
Er, the Lion is corrupted? :confused:

Karhedron
04-03-2015, 13:09
I suspect that the Primarchs are probably closer in power than we may think. The best place to look at this are high end tournaments for martial arts. Whilst there is a clear hierarchy of abilities, when you get to the very top, only a narrow margin separates the top contenders. A good day or a bit of bad luck can make or break a competitor. And that is in an environment intended to provide a level playing field.

The Lion and Curze fight at least 5 pretty brutal brawls with neither succeeding in killing the other despite trying their hardest. I am sure both did their best to gain any advantage they could (ambushes, low blows, whatever). The fact that they are both still alive at the end of it implies they are pretty close to even.

Megatron
04-03-2015, 13:58
I suspect that the Primarchs are probably closer in power than we may think. The best place to look at this are high end tournaments for martial arts. Whilst there is a clear hierarchy of abilities, when you get to the very top, only a narrow margin separates the top contenders. A good day or a bit of bad luck can make or break a competitor. And that is in an environment intended to provide a level playing field.

The Lion and Curze fight at least 5 pretty brutal brawls with neither succeeding in killing the other despite trying their hardest. I am sure both did their best to gain any advantage they could (ambushes, low blows, whatever). The fact that they are both still alive at the end of it implies they are pretty close to even.

I definitely agree that neither one could kill the other which means the are just about equal. I also think that curze operates like an animal more than a warrior. He baits observing his prey until they are physically and mentally exhausted before he begins his assault. You see this all the time with predators as they normally single out sick and wounded prey. Also in war there is no such thing as a fair fight, if curze knows he can't beat one of his brother primarchs in a fair fight why would you fight fair. If fighting fair means I am going to get killed then I wouldn't blame him for sneak attacks.

Megatron
04-03-2015, 21:43
Also when did curze fight both the Lion and roboute.

doglogan
05-03-2015, 03:37
Also when did curze fight both the Lion and roboute.

In Unremembered Empire

Casper Hawser
05-03-2015, 18:21
I agree, Fear to Tread was disappointing as a BA fan. Gav Thorpe made Corax a likable character and inspiring leader despite minimal previous character development. James Swallow's Sanguinius fails to leap off the page despite (or perhaps because of) the wealth of existing material.

I wasn't keen on Fear to Tread either and really liked Corax in Ravens Flight but Gav Thorpes follow up Deliverance Lost was shocking especially when the remberancers start heckling Corax. Most normal people are in awe of Primarchs and struggle to talk to them.
Another problem with Ravens Flight and Deliverance Lost was in Ravens Flight Corax believes only Horus and maybe Sanguinus stand a chance of defeating Angron then in Deliverance Lost he thinks he has a small chance of defeating Angron. And I'm sure some where in the book he muses that him and Horus were evenly matched in practise together it felt as if Gav Thorpe had forgotten what he had written previously on the issue. I might be wrong and mixing this up with another primarch in another book.

I think it's in Betrayer when Lorgar tells Horus that Sanguinus will be on Terra with vengeance in his heart and only two will be able to stand before him Horus is one and Angron is the other that's why Lorgar is trying to save Angron from the Butchers nail's killing him.
I thought Guilliman and Lorgar were evenly matched in Betrayer. And in Aurelian Lorgar knocks down Fulgrim before any of the other Primarchs can react Lorgar may have once been one of the weaker Primarchs but after Istvaan 5 he is definitely one of the toughest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Karhedron
09-03-2015, 11:44
I wasn't keen on Fear to Tread either and really liked Corax in Ravens Flight but Gav Thorpes follow up Deliverance Lost was shocking especially when the remberancers start heckling Corax. Most normal people are in awe of Primarchs and struggle to talk to them.

Given that Corax seems to be all about stealth (even to the point of invisibility), a dazzling aura that leaves people speechless might be somewhat counter-productive. ;) Alpharius/Omegon seem to have a similar deal. Having other Marines deputize for them would be tricky if everyone instinctively knew who they were. The Primarchs were made for different roles, some probably need the awesome turned off in order to function effectively in that role while others dial it up to 11.

Casper Hawser
09-03-2015, 16:49
That would be ok if earlier in the book it hadn't had Corax thinking back to the Istvaan 3 crusade and he was telling them to rise and giving them a speech about joining the Imperium. Even Horus doesn't bother doing that he leaves it to the Iterators.
My problem with that book was I had enjoyed Ravens Flight a lot so really looked forward to it and found Mr Thorpe contradicts his own work fair enough authors doing it to each other but when your doing it to your previous work and the book your writing that's bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rufiodies
09-03-2015, 21:29
Given that Corax seems to be all about stealth (even to the point of invisibility), a dazzling aura that leaves people speechless might be somewhat counter-productive. ;) Alpharius/Omegon seem to have a similar deal. Having other Marines deputize for them would be tricky if everyone instinctively knew who they were. The Primarchs were made for different roles, some probably need the awesome turned off in order to function effectively in that role while others dial it up to 11.

I was going to say the same thing, you can't compare Corax to someone like Horus, or Sanguinius, or even Lorgar, but at the same time, is his whole "HE HACKED MY EYES!" ala ghost in the shell, thing passive, or active? Can he turn it off?

Karhedron
10-03-2015, 11:54
The scene on Istvann where he assaults the traitor tank suggests that he has control over his invisibility. It is not clear whether he has to concentrate to turn it off or to turn it on though.

Casper Hawser
10-03-2015, 18:36
I assumed it works when he doesn't want to be seen and isn't fighting in the Istvaan tank scene I think an Iron Warrior turns and sees him running at them.
Alpharus and Omegon are smaller than the the other Primarchs who are normally described as being a head taller than a marine in Terminator armour so they can disguises themselves as a normal marine. I don't think Corax is similar to them at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rufiodies
10-03-2015, 18:45
Alpharus and Omegon are smaller than the the other Primarchs who are normally described as being a head taller than a marine in Terminator armour so they can disguises themselves as a normal marine. I don't think Corax is similar to them at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think he meant that Alpharus/Omegon don't have that Emperor style aura that makes you **** your pants and kneel, like say Lorgar or Horus or Sangy. Which is similar to Corax. Go back and read the post where he mentions Corax getting heckled by remembrancers.

Also, he wasn't discovered when he lead that assault, he deliberately wanted to be seen in order to save the lives of his warriors and for whatever tactical reason, I don't remember the specifics.

Casper Hawser
10-03-2015, 19:04
I think he meant that Alpharus/Omegon don't have that Emperor style aura that makes you **** your pants and kneel, like say Lorgar or Horus or Sangy. Which is similar to Corax. Go back and read the post where he mentions Corax getting heckled by remembrancers.

Also, he wasn't discovered when he lead that assault, he deliberately wanted to be seen in order to save the lives of his warriors and for whatever tactical reason, I don't remember the specifics.

It was my post that mentioned Corax being heckled by remberancers.
I was just saying I think Corax can hide himself when he is passive but not when he's fighting other wise he would stay hidden and spend his time killing all the traitor Primarchs on Istvaan. I think Corax Curze and Mortarions abilities are similar but really he just wants to be Sanguinus hence the wings on his jump pack.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eikos
11-03-2015, 23:03
In 'Know No Fear' Guilliman says something along the lines of: "None of his brother primarchs could match him in 1on1 combat save for a small number of them at best. AT BEST." I remember the "at best" bit being stressed.

Of course, later on in 'Unremembered Empire' there was that farcial 2 on 1 fight between him, Jonson and comic book villain Night Haunter, so... yeh.

doomspittle
12-03-2015, 07:06
If you watch any kind of boxing,or contact sport. there's a term "styles make fights",basically I'd imagine they would all fair different against each other. Khan vs mort, speed vs endurance, what happens when speed meets speed etc. So wouldn't the most all round fighter fare the best?

m1acca1551
12-03-2015, 09:55
In 'Know No Fear' Guilliman says something along the lines of: "None of his brother primarchs could match him in 1on1 combat save for a small number of them at best. AT BEST." I remember the "at best" bit being stressed.

Of course, later on in 'Unremembered Empire' there was that farcial 2 on 1 fight between him, Jonson and comic book villain Night Haunter, so... yeh.

My interpretation of this means that Guilliman would win if he were allowed to dictate the fight, he's the ultimate planner and would know exactly how to kill or beat any one of his brothers, considering the detail that went into planning and writing the Codex Astartes he has probably thought of and trained for those types of fights.

However... Against some such as Curze, Angron, Horus and others they are able to adapt through sheer insanity, hatred and rage or intelligence. Remember Guilliman did get smashed by super Kor Phareon, showing he underestimated his opponent and is quite beatable.

Rufiodies
12-03-2015, 16:27
He did kinda have to breathe hard vacuum for a little bit there, and fight his way through some daemons, plus deal with the whole "I've been betrayed by my brother (s)" thing, which was apparently jarring enough to "drain" Corax during Istvaan. Then when he actually fought Kor Pheron, he got hit with some Psychic Sorcery that he not only had no defense against, but was handicapped further by his lack of a librarium. So I don't view that as a a slight against his skills. The fact that he and his legion were able to get back on the horse and counter strike so quickly stacks up in his favor. If your gonna attack the Ultra's you better kill them with the first strike, cause after that they will know everything and use it to ... jagged glass dildos, you figure out the rest. I think they make a comment like that in Know No Fear. Issue with this is in a 1 on 1 battle, primarch against primarch, you don't really get second chances. Unless your Curze, then you get seconds, thirds, fourths, sevenths, twentiths...
Also, wasn't Aeonid censured for running theoreticals on fighting other space marines immediately prior to Calth? I would think if Rowboat is punishing his legion for that, that he wouldn't be planning on fighting his brothers or their legions at the same time. Although it wouldn't be the first time a primarch has forbidden his sons from doing something he was doing anyways...
I guess "BUT I WASN'T READY" doesn't fly during the Heresy.

random thought. Why do you think some primarchs call their legions "son" and The Lion calls his "little brother" ?

Denny
12-03-2015, 17:24
He did kinda have to breathe hard vacuum for a little bit there, and fight his way through some daemons, plus deal with the whole "I've been betrayed by my brother (s)" thing, which was apparently jarring enough to "drain" Corax during Istvaan. Then when he actually fought Kor Pheron, he got hit with some Psychic Sorcery that he not only had no defense against, but was handicapped further by his lack of a librarium. So I don't view that as a a slight against his skills.

I don't think anyone is knocking his skills, but Guilliman would win a fight by knowing his enemy and having a plan (in comics this is refered to as 'prep time' and the reason some people think Batman can beat anyone).

If Guilliman can plan for a battle he's very hard to beat because he won't let the conflict play to his opponent's strength.
If there is something he has not been able to plan for (such as sudden psychic sorcery he was unaware of or his brothers betraying him) then he is at a disadvantage because his game plan is thrown off.

This is compared to Angron who doesn't win by planning but by skill, strength and fury. A unexpected attack doesn't give the same advantage against him because he doesn't have a 'plan' beyond hitting people with axes. In the same situation (sorcery and betrayal) Angron would a) be faster and therefore less likely to be hit and b) be more likely to overcome the attack through sheer force of will/hate c) not care that he was betrayed.

Scammel
12-03-2015, 22:19
Many Primarch fights have a greater significance to the story and characters, rather than being pure duff-ups, and thus it's important not to get too hung up on 'My dad could beat up your dad'. Haunter vs the Lion makes a broader point about the Primarchs have their own specific strengths that give them the edge in particular circumstances - the Lion wins the duel, Haunter wins the brawl. Angron's fights drive home the fact that he's really good at fighting, to the exclusion and detriment of all else. Guilliman and Lion vs Haunter uses the contrast between the combatants to make a statement about the ideals of Guilliman's empire, before reminding us (again) that not all characters specialise in fair fights.

Eikos
12-03-2015, 22:42
My interpretation of this means that Guilliman would win if he were allowed to dictate the fight, he's the ultimate planner and would know exactly how to kill or beat any one of his brothers, considering the detail that went into planning and writing the Codex Astartes he has probably thought of and trained for those types of fights..

I kinda liked Abnett's initial characterization of him as a superior primarch, that he was brilliant even for one of them, but that he fell short of Horus because he was somewhat, for lack of a better term, aspergic.



However... Against some such as Curze, Angron, Horus and others they are able to adapt through sheer insanity, hatred and rage or intelligence. Remember Guilliman did get smashed by super Kor Phareon, showing he underestimated his opponent and is quite beatable.

I suspect Abnett felt he needed a "final showdown" scene towards the end of the book and there was no one suitably powerful enough available to act as Guilliman's "foil", and so Phaeron was picked for the job by Dan and "elevated" for the occasion. Personally I can't stand that kind of thing and I wish he hadn't done it (ffs, all he had to do was have one of the villains summon a Greater Daemon, doesn't he know anything?).

Scammel
12-03-2015, 22:46
I kinda liked Abnett's initial characterization of him as a superior primarch, that he was brilliant even for one of them, but that he fell short of Horus because he was somewhat, for lack of a better term, aspergic.

Yeah, Horus was actually liked, whilst having a streak of cynicism that allowed him to manipulate the other Primarchs into doing as they were told (sometimes without even needing to tell them). Horus could have been two foot tall and still made Warmaster thanks to his ability to do what the Emperor never could - understand his brothers.

Karhedron
13-03-2015, 09:42
random thought. Why do you think some primarchs call their legions "son" and The Lion calls his "little brother" ?

Interesting question. At a guess it might be because Lion and many of the Dark Angels were formerly members of the Order on Caliban before the Emperor arrived and found them.

Rufiodies
15-03-2015, 10:33
^that totally makes sense, they are all members of the same "secret society" so they'd become brothers upon joining.