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sergentzimm
29-06-2006, 15:00
Hello all. Has anyone heard any rumors about the ability to have full plate foot in the new empire book that have options other than greatswords? Basically like the old Reiksguard? I would love you have a few more units of full plate, but greatswords are too limiting for me to have more than one unit. Just hoping and dreaming I'm sure, but one can hope.

Jedi152
29-06-2006, 15:24
It's likely that it will remain the same - only greatswords, knights and characters will be able to wear full plate - interestingly enough, Bret knights and characters don't and indeed can't wear full plate. Odd.

Keller
29-06-2006, 16:03
I too would love to be able to field more elite infantry, but I find it very unlikely. The Empire is about medium infantry and tactics, not super-armored troopers. I hope they atleast lift the 0-1 restrictions on Greatswords though, I would love to have 2 units of ~12 to use as counter units, instead of 1 big unit to hold the line.

McMullet
29-06-2006, 16:15
Given that Dwarfs, the best Engineers in the Warhammer World, can only field one type of unit with a 4+ save I doubt that the Empire will get to field more.

I imagine that Brets miss out on Full Plate on account of being less technologically advanced; they rely on martial prowess and breeding good horses to make their cavalry better.

Viskrit
29-06-2006, 16:57
Hm, as far as I know, the ability to make Full Plate and Gromril Armour has nothing to do with technological advancement, but rather with how advanced their blacksmithing is. I find it strange that the Empire gets an armour type which is as strong as Gromril Armour.

Zodiac
29-06-2006, 17:04
Someone told me that the actual "greatswords" disappearing, and that they will have one leadership more.. And will be called "emperor's bodyguard"and they will have the option to but, or greatswords, or shield and hand weapon.
Someone even told me they would have pistols but I think that that would be ridiculous..

LaughinGremlin
29-06-2006, 17:23
Blacksmithing IS a technology.
For instance, an iron bodkin arrowhead cannot penetrate a steel breastplate because steel is harder... ...the steel - making process is an advancement in technology. Eventhough the French knights had steel at Agincourt, the Empire only has it in the Warhammer World.:)

sergentzimm
29-06-2006, 17:35
Someone told me that the actual "greatswords" disappearing, and that they will have one leadership more.. And will be called "emperor's bodyguard"and they will have the option to but, or greatswords, or shield and hand weapon.
Someone even told me they would have pistols but I think that that would be ridiculous..

That would be nice. Having elite infantry with a 3+ save would rock hard core! Even if they are 0-1!

McMullet
29-06-2006, 17:35
Well, I'd say blacksmithery is a form of technology. But let's leave it there, there's nothing like a discussion on semantics to ruin a perfectly good thread!

It does indeed seem odd that the Empire can make armour that is as good as Gromril armour, from normal steel, in spite of their inferior tech/blacksmiths :wtf:

EDIT: Took me 12 minutes to post that... D'oh!

Arnizipal
29-06-2006, 18:08
Given that Dwarfs, the best Engineers in the Warhammer World, can only field one type of unit with a 4+ save I doubt that the Empire will get to field more.

Clansmen, Iron Breakers and Hammerers can all get a 4+ save (or better)


I imagine that Brets miss out on Full Plate on account of being less technologically advanced; they rely on martial prowess and breeding good horses to make their cavalry better.

The apparent "abundance" of full plate in the Empire is thanks to their good relation with the Dwarfs who manufacture it for their human allies.
Also, a lot of expatriate Dwarfs (and Dwarf engineers) work for human contracters in the Empire. This add to the Empire's technological advance over Bretonnia.

Nehcrum
29-06-2006, 18:31
Given that Dwarfs, the best Engineers in the Warhammer World, can only field one type of unit with a 4+ save I doubt that the Empire will get to field more.

I imagine that Brets miss out on Full Plate on account of being less technologically advanced; they rely on martial prowess and breeding good horses to make their cavalry better.
I thought the Empire was leading in the warhammer world when it came to technology, their cannons are better, they got the hochland long rifle, repeater pistol/rifle and the steamtank.

And do I have an old dwarf book or something because in my book, the dwarves have no limit on their iron-breakers (apart from being special choices).


The dwarves have the best smiths and craftsmen, but are generally to conservative to use the advances of technology all out, the old longbeards still gruff about handguns, instead preferring the crossbow.

A lot of the progressive, forward-thinking dwarves have instead gone to the Empire, further adding to the empires technological skill and adding first class smiths and craftsmen.


Bretonnians, are also very conservative and set in their old ways, and they lack the technology of the empire and the skilled smiths of the dwarves. The only reason they would have superior 4+ armor would be if they bought it from any of these sources.

The real question about faction technology should instead be why chaos-worshipping barbarians from the frozen wastes in the north have access to 4+ armor (I know, I know, it's magical demon-armor...).

Doomclaw
29-06-2006, 20:04
There would be multiple ways for them to aquire it, through magic and perhaps they steal it from other people? And some of them might have been mutated to have a harder skin.

McMullet
29-06-2006, 23:05
Clansmen, Iron Breakers and Hammerers can all get a 4+ save (or better)
I mean the actual armour suit (as in, light, heavy, (4+ save armour: Chaos, Full Plate, Gromril).

Overall, I'm not trying to suggest that only Dwarfs can have 4+ save armour suits, just that giving the Empire more access to them wouldn't make sense.

samw
01-07-2006, 07:12
The Empire does not make full plate, the Dwarfs do. As part of the long running alliance the dwarfs gift a small number of these suits of armour. (Add up all the greatswords and knightly orders in the empire and it's still only a few thousand troops added slowly over the centuries.) Bretonnia does not have the same degree of camaraderie with the dwarfs, and as such find the armour difficult to get hold of. On the subject of influence, as has been pointed out before, the empire are humans influenced by the dwarfs, while Brets are humans influenced by the elves.

Trunks
01-07-2006, 07:36
The real question about faction technology should instead be why chaos-worshipping barbarians from the frozen wastes in the north have access to 4+ armor (I know, I know, it's magical demon-armor...).

I could be wrong, but I believe that back in "pre-6th edition times", Chaos Warriors/Knights were all fallen Empire or Bretonnian Knights of some sort. That would explain the armor right there.

Sir_Turalyon
01-07-2006, 08:07
They still are, the barbarian scum that follows them just tries to take all the credit...

Skelmgurn
01-07-2006, 13:00
Originally they were all fallen Empire/Brettonian Knights but they changed the bulk of them to the marauder tribes when they realised "hordes of chaos" would be difficult if they all came from the rare elite troops of the south.

The liber chaotica talks about the barbarian tribes of the north actually being good blacksmiths, good at anything to do with war rather than making horseshoes etc.

Sandlemad
01-07-2006, 13:37
Yup, liber chaotica mentions forging and fighting as the only two skills of the northerners, specifically the norse, mirroring the abilities of scandinavian smiths. I would presume that they would trade these with the kurgan and hung, seeing as they are mainly horse cultures.

I would expect that at least some of the full-plate in the empire is made by humans. It doesn't really make sense that they can create all manner of engineering items but cannot create an advanced form of armour.

Naturally though, this kind of stuff would be done on a suit by suit basis, rather than mass-production. Its likely that some empire nobles go to the dwarves to purchase their suits of armour, possibly for their household guard. There was a story in the old dwarf book about an ambassador ordering swords off them. He got fleeced:D, suggesting that the cost of buying from the dwarves is something that keeps the amount of suits down aswell.

Crazy Harborc
01-07-2006, 19:40
I guess it's time to start dusting off my Essex foot knights to be ready to use units of Empire walking cans in 7th Ed.:)

Hopefully GW will do more than just reinsert the old fluff and stats for those foot knights/reiksguard.

Zodiac
02-07-2006, 18:54
This is indeed an interesting point techologicly seen.. But the ages differ from eachother.. so at the time of sigmar.. the dwarfs were like.. aliens.. but now the technology evens a little.. because the humans have shorter lives.. and therefore try to explore more in the same lifetime.. (a lifetime , even if its dwarvish or human.. is still a lifetime) So the humans catch up with the dwarves.. because.. well.. the dwarves reach about 400+ years old.. why hurry? The humans at the other end.. have only about 40 actual work years ahead of them.. start at 20 end at 60 (if they even reach that age, seeing the dark environment of the warhammer world.)

Gen.Steiner
02-07-2006, 19:09
Full plate foot - Reiksguard foot knights, replacing Greatswords if you use Reiksguard Grand Master and Reiksguard cavalry. That makes sense t'me...

Stouty
02-07-2006, 20:19
If dwarfs didn't exist I'd welcome this idea but to me it seems to be encrouching on my stunties territory a little too far.

I hate creep like this. First off the best save anyone could get was a 5+ save from heavy armour. Then along cam dwarfs who, to be fair, are meant to be the best armourers so to register that dwarfs get a 4+ save which makes them special. Then chaos gets a 4+ save from their armour because it's magical (:confused: ).

Now I was cool with empire getting full plate but it should be something really rare for them. Personally I'd like to see it as an option only for characters but I have no say.

Same thing for barding.

gorenut
02-07-2006, 20:40
I'm an Empire player and I think Full Plate should be how it's like now. Only available to Greatswords, Knights, and characters.

On a side note though, Dwarfs still are the best armorer. Not only do they get access to 4+ saves, they also get runes.

alextroy
03-07-2006, 00:01
While I would not mind foot knights for my empire army, I'd be happy just to see a empire unit with heavy armor. The only empire model you ever see fielded in heavy armor is the warrior-priest.

Messiah
03-07-2006, 01:16
It's likely that it will remain the same - only greatswords, knights and characters will be able to wear full plate - interestingly enough, Bret knights and characters don't and indeed can't wear full plate. Odd.

It is because they are based on different times. Brets = 900 - 1200 about and Empire = 1400 - 1600.

Edit: Spelling.

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-07-2006, 07:34
dwarf characters get the best armour still i think due to the very very cheap rune of stone

boom, 3+ armour right there. Power armoured dwarfs all the way.

Kharnath
03-07-2006, 12:09
armour of the gods, now that was power armour.

and dotn forget about chaos armour, they cant take it off, its MAGIC and more than a little pesessive, due tot hat bonding and demonic energy youd think it would be fairly effective armour

Wisdom
03-07-2006, 21:35
Oh no, I think this thread is getting my hopes up perilously high. I really really really really hope we get Reiksguard on foot back (really). They don't even have to do new models for em, just stick an entry in the book. I don't understand why they don't keep more of the old options there. They don't need to make new models for stuff and if they're in the book people will still buy more of the old models. I miss the old variety of the old lists. I like having options there that are no use to anyone. Like halflings armed with swords. Who's gonna pay for the halflings ballistic skill then choose not to take a bow? But they had models and everything so you could proper fluff up your army. Oh, I'm going off on one aren't I? Anyone remember the variety in the old (one before last) Bretonnian list (I'm talking organ guns and more halflings here!). Oh, I'll shut up now.

But it would be nice to see Reiksguard on foot again (everyone cross those fingers!)

kyussinchains
06-07-2006, 11:20
also if brets got a 1+ save AS WELL as their cheating 6/5+ ward, it would unbalance the game (even more than it already does)

Kharnath
06-07-2006, 12:33
also if brets got a 1+ save AS WELL as their cheating 6/5+ ward, it would unbalance the game (even more than it already does)


hmm bitter much?

kyussinchains
08-07-2006, 11:44
hmm bitter much?

I think it's a little non-fluffy, I mean the lady of the lake is a wood elf mage, the wood elves dont have a spell which gives every model in their army a ward save do they?

I think it worked much better in the last edition, it only affected missile weapons/war machines and it went some way towards papering over the cracks. The current brets are already tough enough without having the ward save IMO

Subscan
08-07-2006, 20:50
imho the whole brettonian concept doesnīt make much sense!
it seems as if there were 10mio knights in bretonnia, otherwise i canīt understand why 90% of all bret armies donīt even cover one single peasant...

moreover i hate in general that towards the end of 6th edition more and more armies got ward saves for units!!! think of woodies and brets!
imho ward saves should be restricted only to characters and ocasionally to special units and NOT the whole army!?!

Crazy Harborc
09-07-2006, 00:40
A Bret. ward save that is normally a max of a 1/3 chance of survival is not a very big deal. Heck, for me (when pushing Woodies) a one in six (Ward save) chance at saving is little better than no chance.

Stouty
10-07-2006, 18:35
A Bret. ward save that is normally a max of a 1/3 chance of survival is not a very big deal. Heck, for me (when pushing Woodies) a one in six (Ward save) chance at saving is little better than no chance.

When a few models have it know it makes very little difference for example:
A model has 3 wounds and 5+ ward save. Realistically to kill him you will need to inflict 4 wounds

This is fine however when an entire army benifits from this:
Every 4th unit of knights you would have destroyed suffers know damage. This could be up to a quarter of the army surviving for no reason other than the ward save.

And it's not like heavy cavalry are currently a little flimsy.

Subscan
11-07-2006, 17:49
The bad thing is not the ward save only, the bad thing is the combination of a 2+ armour AND a 5+ ward save!!!
this makes the whole thing so unfair!
at leasat woodies and demons have no armour anyway, but this bretonnian combo makes them impossible to kill for S3 or even S4 troops, which is the majority of all troops!!!

Freak Ona Leash
11-07-2006, 18:33
The bad thing is not the ward save only, the bad thing is the combination of a 2+ armour AND a 5+ ward save!!!
this makes the whole thing so unfair!
at leasat woodies and demons have no armour anyway, but this bretonnian combo makes them impossible to kill for S3 or even S4 troops, which is the majority of all troops!!!
So use Great weapon troops? Or dont kill them, just out Combat Resolution them and watch them flee. Or use a lot of Fear causers, take some Ogre Ironguts as DoW, S7 hurts even Bretonnians. But, do you know hwat the Lance Formation is really good for? Cannon balls. :evilgrin:

Crazy Harborc
11-07-2006, 20:37
Um, I seem to remember that the Ward save starts at 6. The 5 save is only there for higher strength attacks/hits on the Brets.

Keller
11-07-2006, 22:08
Um, I seem to remember that the Ward save starts at 6. The 5 save is only there for higher strength attacks/hits on the Brets.
Correct. If the attack is S4 or less, its a 6+ save. It jumps to 5+ at S5 and stronger. The problem is you need more power to pierce the armor, but then you hurt yourself by increasing their ward.

samw
11-07-2006, 22:53
I think it's a little non-fluffy, I mean the lady of the lake is a wood elf mage, the wood elves dont have a spell which gives every model in their army a ward save do they?



Trash. Even if you accept the Lady is Ariel, which I don't, she's the immortal avatar of an elven goddess, not just a wood elf mage. You don't view it as unfluffy, you just don't like the rule for its effect on the tabletop, as you've shown with your willingness to accept the shooting only blessing.

It didn't work in last edition when it was only for shooting, because people didn't take it unless the opponent had a lot of shooting. The designers notes say they wanted the Brets to pray every battle. It's not meant to be a strategic choice, it's meant to be a benefit.

As someone has said, you don't beat heavy cav on kills, you break it with CR. If Brets don't break you on the charge they're in trouble. They need to have the knights (the cheapest of which is the same as a chosen chaos warior BTW) stay alive to get into combat, because Bretonnians were not given the magical or shooting capabilities in the book to win by other means. Buy yourself a unit of stubborn/unbreakable troops or just grab a BSB and a fighter general (or just play the undead) and stop your bellyaching.

junx13
12-07-2006, 04:38
Trash. Even if you accept the Lady is Ariel, which I don't, she's the immortal avatar of an elven goddess, not just a wood elf mage. You don't view it as unfluffy, you just don't like the rule for its effect on the tabletop, as you've shown with your willingness to accept the shooting only blessing.



This is wayyyyy off topic, but if you were to read the latest Wood Elf Novel (can't remember the name at work), there is a scene where the main Character Leofric, sees a vision of the Lady and a Wood Elf comes upon them and thinks that he sees Ariel... All of which alludes to the Lady being Ariel...

Of course, this could all just be wrongly written fluff as some Warhammer Novels are wont to do, but it IS in writing and therefore hard to ignore. :D

Note: I used to be a Bret player and dun believe in the Lady = Ariel thing too, but I'm just making an observation on what GW seems to want us to think.

warmaster
31-07-2006, 20:51
old and off topic, but ariel is in no way strong enough magically to protect every highborn in bretonnia, i doubt teclis or non dead lord kroak would be able to do that.


Its the power of a godess, and as such they only get it when they prey, because the more people beleive in a god/godess the stronger they become iirc


on the actual matter, like someone said before the empire is about medium skilled troops and tactics, more elite troops isnt a good idea imo.

chivalrous
31-07-2006, 21:35
It's likely that it will remain the same - only greatswords, knights and characters will be able to wear full plate - interestingly enough, Bret knights and characters don't and indeed can't wear full plate. Odd.

Bretonnians would be sick if they had access to full plate. I'm a bretonnian player and I'd just feel dirty if we got that.
Brets are hard enough as they are.

Crazy Harborc
01-08-2006, 02:33
Well...:evilgrin: ....I would like a hybred unit ot three. Bret knights with plate AND Empire style parent units WITH detachments:angel: Did I mention hand gunners or crossbows? Then, there's the DoW pikes I would want too. How about some Woodies as allies?

Highborn
01-08-2006, 05:29
If dwarfs didn't exist I'd welcome this idea but to me it seems to be encrouching on my stunties territory a little too far.

I hate creep like this. First off the best save anyone could get was a 5+ save from heavy armour. Then along cam dwarfs who, to be fair, are meant to be the best armourers so to register that dwarfs get a 4+ save which makes them special. Then chaos gets a 4+ save from their armour because it's magical (:confused: ).

Now I was cool with empire getting full plate but it should be something really rare for them. Personally I'd like to see it as an option only for characters but I have no say.

Same thing for barding.

Erm ... I'm guessing Gromril armour is the new dwarf 4+ armour option.

It used to be that Iron Breakers each had heavy armour, shield and the rune of stone.

Then chaos armour came out at 4+, for the elite of the chaos gods.

Then the dwarves got their gromril armour option (sometime after I quit originally).

Same thing? Not quite, because dwarven smithing wasn't recognised until after chaos armour came out, not the other way around.



That said, I agree that full plate shouldn't be a big option for the Empire. If it is, then definitely a 0-1 / characters choice.

TheWarSmith
01-08-2006, 06:05
Liber Chaotica Tzeentch also explains that Lord Kaldour and his knights are rare in that they're not of northern stock, but rather hail from Bretonnia, the empire, Sylvania, Estalia, Araby, and other non northern lands.

Stouty
01-08-2006, 17:48
Same thing? Not quite, because dwarven smithing wasn't recognised until after chaos armour came out, not the other way around.

That's really odd. If you think about chaos armour gets you the 4+ save because it's magical. And runesmithing is still smithing.

But that, as they say, is another topic altogether.