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Viskrit
29-06-2006, 18:58
I've been wondering. It's not uncommon that the rules aren't parallell to the fluff, especially when it comes to HE mages. Fluffwise, they are masters of sorcery, perhaps surpassed by the Slann only.

However, ruleswise, all they really get is +1 on their Dispel rolls. I know they have the ability to choose any lore, and also get their own High Magic. But, an empire Wizard can also choose any of the eight lores. In my opinion, High Magic isn't especially powerful. It has its uses, but not more so than other lores. I also know that HE magic items are cheaper, but that is also another thing. HE mages shouldn't only have access to more trinkets. Their own power should also be stronger than that of other races.

With the next HE army book, do you think HE mages will get better at what they do? I certainly don't think they should match the Slann, who were created specifically to be magic users. But I think, that either HE mages should get +1 on both casting and dispelling, or perhaps the High Magic spells should be improved, to represent the fact that High Elves have refined their magic. If any such improvement was made, they would of course have to cost more points.

Drasanil
29-06-2006, 19:13
Fluffwise you are quite correct a Level 1 High Magic user should walk all over any Empire Wizard Lord, RoS makes that quite clear. Unfortunately thats not going to happen any time soon in WFB.

Personaly I hope they restrict High Magic to Lvl 4 mages only and make it very powerfull. I'd also like to see Dark Elves and Dark Magic(the real stuff not that piddly chaos/necro) get similar treatment, since fluffwise High Mages are only slightly better than Sorcerers. Atleast that way it will be a little fluffy with out making your every day level 2 mage a godlike engine of destruction.

ZomboCom
29-06-2006, 21:29
You have seen the Seer honour, right?

That's what makes them so good.

Sashu
29-06-2006, 22:23
Ya... it's really all about Seer. For 40 points they get to choose their spells. What more do you want?

Septicus
30-06-2006, 00:36
Seer is not worth it for hero level characters. Just costs too much to be useful. HE need much more going on for magic.

ZomboCom
30-06-2006, 00:55
Seer is not worth it for hero level characters. Just costs too much to be useful. HE need much more going on for magic.

You're kidding, right? Seer + Channeller + Silver wand gives you basically a level 3 mage who can choose what spells to have.

Multiple seers allows for stuff like multiple comets.

Seer allows you to choose exactly the spells you'll need, which is a HUGE advantage compared to all other mages. It's totally worthwhile for hero level high elf mages.

Why do you think the high elf all magic army is considered one of the strongest builds?

ZomboCom
30-06-2006, 00:56
Ya... it's really all about Seer. For 40 points they get to choose their spells. What more do you want?

Even better... It's 30 points.

Smoking Frog
30-06-2006, 01:39
But High Elves are the masters of sorcery. The +1 to dispel is just the beginning as you custom fit your mage to carry gear that'll boost his powers beyond his level, and as said, he can even choose what powers he gets.

Now, how many mages can do that?

Personally, I take High Magic every time, since it suits my style of play. Powers like Flames of the Phoenix really do bug people, and they spend their time so worried and confused and lost that they really lose hope... when I deny them their magic with the Drain, well... all is good IMHO. It isn't a ridiculously powerful lore like the Heavens, but its perfect for those annoying gunline wizards...

EvC
30-06-2006, 03:16
If you're going to go on about fluff, remember, it will take a HUGE amountof a regular human's life to become even a level one mage. Yet level one elven mages still retain their youth in comparison.

Alathir
30-06-2006, 03:20
Fluff wise, how powerful are the Khemri mages in comparison? Apparently they were quite the magic masters...

Agnosis
30-06-2006, 14:00
Yes, I agree Seer is what makes HE mages great. But I think there should be something more. Which doesn't go into their 50/100 points of magic items.

gortexgunnerson
30-06-2006, 15:02
Well on the subject of High Elves being all powerful magic users, they lost all the most powerful Mages when they closed the portal during the sundering. What left is the weaker mages who are comparitively still slightly better then most other races.

Although I do think fluff wise they should be better but for game play I think they are fine. They have access to some of the best magical items for spell caster most noteable the book of hoeth which in the hands of a Lv4 can destroy armies.

A similar problem is found in special characters, characters like Tecilis should be able to destroy armies with a single spell but to make them playable everyone had to be toned down

Drasanil
30-06-2006, 17:52
What left is the weaker mages who are comparitively still slightly better then most other races.

Yes but you're failling to take into account that: the great mages may have had children who possessed an equally great talent for magic, and that while magic capabilities are inherited they also do spontanuously manifest. Finaly a piddly elf apprentice is easily a match for most empire wizard lords:angel:

The best way to show elves have a mastered magic beyond what is humanly capable, (sorry but +1 cast or dispel doesn't cut it IHMO), would be to introduce a simple rule like: "Elves only micast on triples rather than doubles".

A rule of the sort would allow elf mages to cast spells with a nice heap load of power dice with less risk, and with out completely unbalancing the system, especialy if the new no sharing dice come into effect. This would actualy show they've mastered magic, and yes I do consider it moronic that a 500+ year old elf mage who's supposedly mastered either High or Dark Magic, miscasts as often as some bumbling human from the colleges.

Razhem
30-06-2006, 19:55
Or they could have their own less lethal miscast table

Latro
30-06-2006, 20:15
Right, let me make some notes ...

- only miscast on triples
- less lethal msicast table
- the good old +1 to dispell ofcourse

anything else?

- a +1 to cast as well? ... why not, the creepy Druchii have it
- powers not coming from the magic-item limit
- more dangerous lore ofcourse
- perhaps toughness 4? ... I bet there's a spell that could buff them up a bit
- some sort of force aura that works as a ward-save?
- ... uhm ... pet dragons?

Okay, sorry ... these "fluff says we should be stronger" topics always get me a bit sarcastic.


:cool:

Drasanil
30-06-2006, 21:03
anything else?

No a reasonnable change, which gives a meaningful(in other words not some token +1) advantage to elf wizards over a human ones, should suffice:p


Okay, sorry ... these "fluff says we should be stronger" topics always get me a bit sarcastic.

It's not so much the fluff says we should be stronger. But the fluff says, nothing short of a Slaan/Lord of Tzeench should beat/match an elf mage.

And when all you get for it is +1 cast/dispel on an overpriced sorceress, when armies like empire and greenskins can easily field multiple cheap wizards. It's kind of leaves a lot to be desired.

Don't get me wrong I think armies should be balanced, but they should also match their fluff to a reasonnable extent, which is something GW botched quite badly when making high and dark elves.

gorenut
30-06-2006, 23:11
Maybe just make their unique lore a lot more powerful, but also makes the model more expensive if that lore is chosen. This will represent the Elf mages who were willing to make the sacrifice to specialize in their own lore, but at the same time still gives room to represent the many "weaker" ones who choose other lores.

Nkari
01-07-2006, 02:58
The high elf lore is good enough if you know how to use it..

The seer honor is the one thing that makes a high elf mage army horrid to play against since they will have the EXACT 10 spells they need to destroy every part of your oponents army.. only bad thing is the misscasts.. ;)

Arnizipal
01-07-2006, 16:34
Yes but you're failling to take into account that: the great mages may have had children who possessed an equally great talent for magic, and that while magic capabilities are inherited they also do spontanuously manifest. Finaly a piddly elf apprentice is easily a match for most empire wizard lords:angel:

You're exaggerating again... :rolleyes: :p


The best way to show elves have a mastered magic beyond what is humanly capable, (sorry but +1 cast or dispel doesn't cut it IHMO), would be to introduce a simple rule like: "Elves only micast on triples rather than doubles".

That would make level 1 High Elf wizards (who are the least experienced of them all) immune to miscasts. :eyebrows:

How about giving High Elves the advantage they had in 5th editon? Back then their spells where harder to dispel no matter their level. As spell casted by an equal level mages was dispelled on a 4+, but High Elves (even those of a lower level) always counted as a more powerful mage and their spells required at least a 5+ to dispel.

Not sure how that should work with dice though...

Drasanil
01-07-2006, 16:45
You're exaggerating again... :rolleyes: :p

Not according WFRP;)


That would make level 1 High Elf wizards (who are the least experienced of them all) immune to miscasts. :eyebrows:

Well considering casting a spell one dice makes you immune to miscasts any ways, it's essentialy the same principal. Also how many LvL1 wizards do you actualy see casting spells, rather than just lugging around scrolls? And to be fair, I am advocating the change for Wood and Dark Elves as well, it could easily be included in a small paragraph in the core book like the rule about dwarf dispel dice.


How about giving High Elves the advantage they had in 5th editon? Back then their spells where harder to dispel no matter their level. As spell casted by an equal level mages was dispelled on a 4+, but High Elves (even those of a lower level) always counted as a more powerful mage and their spells required at least a 5+ to dispel.

Not sure how that should work with dice though...

The best way to do that would be the +1 to cast, which dark elves already have, and which is hardly any fun, not to mention it makes wizard's prohibitively expensive.

Latro
01-07-2006, 16:59
... The best way to do that would be the +1 to cast, which dark elves already have, and which is hardly any fun, not to mention it makes wizard's prohibitively expensive.

Well, there's nothing in the fluff that says Elven mages should be cheap and common as muck ... is there?


:cool:

Drasanil
01-07-2006, 17:22
Well, there's nothing in the fluff that says Elven mages should be cheap and common as muck ... is there?


:cool:

Well according to WFRP, every 1 in a million humans has the potential to become a wizard of notisable power. Compared to elves, where all it states is that the ability to manipulate magic is commonplace and almost natural...

Of course though, elves wouldn't field brigades of apprentice or lesser wizards, disaster waiting to happen. How ever it is a safe bet that Athel Loren, Ulthuan or Naggaroth, each have more mages/sorcerers that are battle ready than the empire or any human nation(chaotic humans being the possible exception).

PS:I admit the human numbers is pretty wonky, something more realistic might be 1 in every 10000-50000, which would give the empire some 20 to 100 decent wizards to play with, per 1 million of pop.

Viskrit
01-07-2006, 17:26
Remember, though, that the humans are much more numerous than the elves. Even though the elves have a large percentage of wizards, it doesn't mean that they have that many more wizards in total.

Stouty
01-07-2006, 20:09
Plus an elf is likely to have so many talents (since the fluff insists on writing that they are the best at everything- GrumpyDwarf) that even if they have the potential to become I wizard they might choose to do something else like perfume blending.

Personally I fail to see how high elf society could work if they are all to good to do anything menial. Someone has to sweep the gutters or the streets get dirty right?

Just give them +1 to dispell per dispell dice used. Would stack up very nicely but points costs would rocket; justlook at how much the wizard's staff costs, it might be overpowered but exspect to pay an extra 20-30pts for it.

Viskrit
01-07-2006, 23:13
Personally I fail to see how high elf society could work if they are all to good to do anything menial. Someone has to sweep the gutters or the streets get dirty right?
Of course they don't! Elven streets are always clean! The mages probably cast an "Incantation of gutter cleansing" every now and then. :p

Arnizipal
02-07-2006, 01:32
Not according WFRP;)

According to WFRP an apprentice High Mage is roughly equal to a Human Wizard Lord in power (and stats most likely ;) ).
What really makes him better is the ability to use High Magic, which in WFRP is so mind-bendingly powerful there aren't even rules for it.

So we're kinda comparing apples and oranges here...

Viskrit
02-07-2006, 11:39
Heh, maybe GW should simply restrict the 4th magic level to some armies only. For example humans, greenskins, Chaos (except Tzeentch) would only to wield lvl 3 wizards. :)