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jcsalmela
04-03-2015, 19:12
I'm looking to build a Bretonian army, and noticed that the Herrimaults are better than the peasant bowmen, or so I think. First I'd like to ask whether or not they are actually better or more worthwhile. Secondly, I am having trouble finding Herrimault models. Do they exist or do you just pretend the peasant bowmen are Herrimaults?

Peasant bowman > Herrimault?
or
Peasant bowman < Herrimault?

FLUEVOG
04-03-2015, 21:21
Herrimaults?

Adam_Barrow
04-03-2015, 22:01
Men-At-Arms?

forseer of fates
05-03-2015, 00:24
Does it matter, 9th ed peasant bowmen=Empire archers. I really would advise against investing anything in Bretonnia.

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 00:47
Does it matter, 9th ed peasant bowmen=Empire archers. I really would advise against investing anything in Bretonnia.

Unless you're like me, and don't give a fig what 9th brings and will keep playing 8th.

forseer of fates
05-03-2015, 00:54
Yes and no, on the point of Bretonnia, ive never seen them work effectively in 8th anyway. Any unit which can hold one round of combat, which is most units these days, can beat them. The only thing I am worried about when facing Brettonians is the heroic killing blow lord. But yeah, if I don't like 9th, my group will just continue with 8th.

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 01:21
Yes and no, on the point of Bretonnia, ive never seen them work effectively in 8th anyway. Any unit which can hold one round of combat, which is most units these days, can beat them. The only thing I am worried about when facing Brettonians is the heroic killing blow lord. But yeah, if I don't like 9th, my group will just continue with 8th.

Really? I find they work just fine in 8th for the most part, although we have different experiences obviously.

I actually think people's biggest issue when using the army is their over-reliance on characters and fronk rank character shenanigans. The HKB lord relies way too much on lucky die rolls, and has a much lower chance of success than he's credited with.

forseer of fates
05-03-2015, 01:51
I once had two units of 8 realm knights charge a unit of my 4 demi gryphs, they fluffed slightly, I passed saves, which isn't hard when they're only s5 on the charge, killed a few back. I held and ofc once they are s3 that's that when your fighting s5 ap units. The grail knights charged a steam tank, did a few wounds then died. So yes different experiences probably.

Against all these end time units, I cant see that going well either, Unbreakable archeon and maliketh the lies king could probably kill 2k of them by themselves.

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 01:57
Against all these end time units, I cant see that going well either, Unbreakable archeon and maliketh the lies king could probably kill 2k of them by themselves.

That says a lot less about the Bretonnian army than it does about the End Times characters. :p

forseer of fates
05-03-2015, 01:59
Well yes, that aswell.

jcsalmela
05-03-2015, 02:39
Bertrand the Brigand gives them a bonus. I hadn't heard of him or the Herrimaults before. I was just seeing if they were a thing. They may be discontinued. I downloaded a pdf of the supposedly 8th edition book, just so i can investigate before I commit money to buying the army and real book. Does anyone here have a hard copy 8th edition book that can check? Pgs 102 and 125 are what i have for those. Also since this turned into a debate about new editions apparently...We will probably try 9th, and see how it goes, but likely stay in 8th. We think it may be possible to play a bretonnian or empire themed human army. So we can still cling to our armies if we do advance to the next edition

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 03:12
Bertrand the Brigand gives them a bonus. I hadn't heard of him or the Herrimaults before. I was just seeing if they were a thing. They may be discontinued. I downloaded a pdf of the supposedly 8th edition book, just so i can investigate before I commit money to buying the army and real book. Does anyone here have a hard copy 8th edition book that can check? Pgs 102 and 125 are what i have for those. Also since this turned into a debate about new editions apparently...We will probably try 9th, and see how it goes, but likely stay in 8th. We think it may be possible to play a bretonnian or empire themed human army. So we can still cling to our armies if we do advance to the next edition

Bertrand the Brigand and the Bowmen of Bergerac haven't been existed as characters since the 5th edition army book.

jcsalmela
05-03-2015, 03:47
oh......well then....that would explain it. Thank you. now i know..now i know....

forseer of fates
05-03-2015, 03:52
and they certainly have no 8th ed book. Its an old old book :p

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 03:56
Right. The last Bretonnian army book was written during 6th edition, and it's still legal to use for 8th.

Greyshadow
05-03-2015, 07:02
Men-at-Arms can be used to prevent or take steadfast by adding ranks to combats involving knights. Can be very effective. Always good to have a bit of bow fire to prevent single characters running around with impunity and to chip off ranks bonuses. Can't go too far wrong with either. Maybe the archers would nudge out the Men-at-Arms but not by too much I would think.

P.S. I love Bretonnians - awesome army and can still win games despite being old.

Ramius4
05-03-2015, 07:38
Men-at-Arms can be used to prevent or take steadfast by adding ranks to combats involving knights. Can be very effective. Always good to have a bit of bow fire to prevent single characters running around with impunity and to chip off ranks bonuses. Can't go too far wrong with either. Maybe the archers would nudge out the Men-at-Arms but not by too much I would think.

P.S. I love Bretonnians - awesome army and can still win games despite being old.

There's definitely a learning curve with them though. The biggest tip I can give is to use a combined arms approach something like what you've described above. But it's also situation dependant.

If the opponent has any sort of firepower, your Knights will typically want to get into combat as quickly as possible (which usually leaves the Men at Arms well behind the front lines, sometimes until the combat has been decided).

If the opponent's army doesn't have many long range threats, you can take your time getting into position with both Knights and Men at Arms (often an ideal situation, when it presents itself).

I would also suggest learning not to charge enemy elite units if it's something you can't reliably beat. Let them charge you. You may still lose your Men at Arms, but you'll delay the loss for a turn (and hopefully delay the enemy's plans in doing so, as well as disrupting their movement). Especially if you're not going to run away after one turn of combat. If you think you can keep Steadfast just long enough to set up a countercharge with Knights, you're halfway to victory.

Men at Arms often get a bad rap, but I think that's mostly due to people's inexperience as players. -1 WS from an Empire State Trooper is not at all the end of the world. Besides, they're also cheap troops with Strength 4, which is pretty nice.

Bowmen are also just fine. Flaming arrows are a must for removing Regeneration against some armies. I wouldn't load up on too many Archers though, Bretonnians often get into combat very fast, leaving you with few targets that aren't engaged.

Hope that helps!

jcsalmela
05-03-2015, 16:31
Yes this is entirely helpful. I had pretty much written men at arms off. I didn't think they'd actually be helpful to be honest. I was going to primarily stick to knights and archers, probably far to many archers to be honest (i like the idea of clouds of arrows). I will try a more balanced approach now, and see how the men at arms actually play out. Many thanks for all of your help.

adtheis
05-03-2015, 18:53
I find M@A to be an excellent unit for the points. I have a giant 50-man unit (sometimes a column, sometimes a horde) and for ~275 points they only replace one lance. They are great at getting chopped up by GW units my knights are afraid to fight.

infamousme
21-03-2015, 17:53
@jcsalmela
Where did you find this supposed 8th ed bret book?

Lord Dan
22-03-2015, 22:07
Sorry, did we ever actually establish what a Herrimault is?

hagen88
23-03-2015, 11:01
Well, For all I know the term Bretonnian Herrimault appears in Wharammer Fantasy Roleplay 2 ed supplement: Knights of the Grail (a great book and source of inspiration by the way) and they are described as gentleman outlaws with a strict moral code, very much like Robin Hood and his Merry Men. They are not mentioned in the current Bretonnian AB, which dates back to 6 ed as some of the guys mentioned, but are probably inspired by Bertrand and his Bergerac's Archers, who were present in the 5 ed AB, but are now sadly gone from the official bg. It's important to notice that there is no official 8 ed bret AB, as Ramius pointed out the 6 ed one is the last one and it's still legal on the gaming scene (although I can't say how effective it is in 8 ed since I seldom play with my brets :() so the one you downloaded must be a fan-made unofficial one, which is good if you and your gaming mates are fine with it, just saying it is not the official gw AB.

That said if you want to have some Herrimault in your army (I included them for example, because I was inspired by a wfrp campaign I recently played) you can simply use them as Peasnt Bowmen... In the current AB (6ed one) on the core troops section, you can see you have the possibility of giving one of your Peasant Bowmen the ability Skirmishers instead of taking the defensive stakes. I use them like this to represent a band of outlaws which doesn't answer to the hierarchy and orders of the army commanders like a "regular" peasant bowmen levy does. You give them a motto, a nice and simple heraldry (I called mine the company of the Red Lilys) and... Voilą!

For the models it all actually depends on how much you want to invest on them (in both time and money)... You can perfectly use the plastic bretonnian bowmen, deploy them as skirmishers and call it a day as I assume many people would do... OR you can hunt down old metal models on ebay. The 5 ed bretonnian range had an almost infinite number of (IMO) amazing choices when it came to peasants and men at arms. For Herrmiault I would recommend the Perry's "Squires on foot" wich I bought and I highly recommend! They are still great models full of dynamism, character and details.
210164 210165

First picture showing a regiment painted as herrimaults (not mine)...

Lord Dan
23-03-2015, 12:25
Ah, I've always loved those Squire models.

Lastavenger
24-03-2015, 12:49
I may be mistaken but I think that OP might be using Warhammer Armies Project. They are commonly acepted among players. I don't think you would have problem with playing with them.

Last Edition
24-03-2015, 14:29
Yup, Herrimaults are a unit in a fan made Bretonnian army book.

Zemlod
13-03-2016, 00:30
I'll risk some necrothreading here, just in case anyone is still interested in Herrimaults. I know I am.

North Star Figures (of Frostgrave fame) are just releasing a set of extra bitz to convert their soldiers into "forest outlaws".
https://www.facebook.com/northstarmilitaryfigures/photos/a.218637431498500.77933.218634441498799/1220071718021728/?type=3&theater
225911

While they may not be a thing in the current official codex, word is that Bretonnia is about to get Tomb-Kinged/Squatted in the next weeks anyway, so who's to stop us from fielding them.

Now if only they'd include some of the Bretonnian crazy bitz in those sets, I'd take a dozen. Come on, we need more snails and frogs! ;)