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HereComesTomorrow
07-03-2015, 11:41
So End Times: Archaon lets you ally Skaven and all the Chaos books.

May as well get started early and come up with all the broken stuff now.

Who's ready for two A-Bombs, Slaves and Chaos Warriors lead by Nurgle Daemon Prince with Gutter Runners killing yo' cannons? Who's ready for some Grey Seers in a Chaos Warrior bunker? Who's looking forward to being Withered to T2 then getting Rancid Visitations cast on them?

Malagor
07-03-2015, 12:23
It's a good thing that chaos warriors or gors can't push the bell otherwise we would get unbreakable warriors on the field.

Sexiest_hero
07-03-2015, 15:51
you don't really gain much, both book are so powerful you ally for fun.

Malagor
07-03-2015, 15:58
Oh both of them gain alot.
Legion of Chaos gains one of the best shooting in the game and Skaven gains some of the best close combat units in the game and their magic lores together can be nothing short of nasty.

Sexiest_hero
07-03-2015, 16:11
Oh Idk. I mean do you need more then two skull cannons for shooting? Gor are better fighters than clanrats and ungor outdo slaves. Skaven are locked into a level 4 seer and chaos casters arn't cheap either. You add in two skull cannons two lighting cannons two aboms, three chymrea, and your list is already gutted and over points. I mean you could come up with some nasty stuff. But if you can't get enough power out of the three combined chaos books, or the skaven book, you'll be disappointing trying to mash them together.

snyggejygge
07-03-2015, 17:52
While I can see some nasty combos, double abomination & prince of Nurgle isnt one of them, Nurgle prince has been useless in the current meta for a while & taking 2 abominations will force you to skip double skullcannon. Warriors havent seen action since chariots became core unless you deathstar......
I reckon the lists will be very different. You need to update your knowledge about Chaosbefore you scream op!

BattleofLund
07-03-2015, 20:15
While I can see some nasty combos, double abomination & prince of Nurgle isnt one of them, Nurgle prince has been useless in the current meta for a while & taking 2 abominations will force you to skip double skullcannon. Warriors havent seen action since chariots became core unless you deathstar......
I reckon the lists will be very different. You need to update your knowledge about Chaosbefore you scream op!

I wish I was alive now.

CoolWhip
07-03-2015, 21:13
I'll be keeping my skaven vanilla for now, I don't really see the chaos factions adding much that my list is missing besides maybe some skill cannons.

Besides the aesthetics are so wrong, skaven don't look chaos-ey at all.

General_Vega
07-03-2015, 21:27
Who's ready for acting like End Times never happened and ignoring all the stupid rules, army lists and units that came out of it?

Spiney Norman
07-03-2015, 22:09
Who's ready for acting like End Times never happened and ignoring all the stupid rules, army lists and units that came out of it?

That's been the default setting at our group ever since Khaine came out and fundamentally wrecked the magic phase while simultaneously destroying the background of the three elf armies. It's ok, according to 9th edition rumours we won't have to wait much longer and the game will cease to exist in its current form anyway, we'll all be too busy reading the new rulebook, getting our heads around the new setting/armies and starting completely new model collections (or just leaving warhammer behind completely) and the end times farce will be a distant memory.

logan054
07-03-2015, 22:40
Who's ready for acting like End Times never happened and ignoring all the stupid rules, army lists and units that came out of it?


I just pick and choose the rules I like and modify as I see fit, most are ignored, a combined skaven and chaos list is certainly one of them ;)

forseer of fates
07-03-2015, 23:35
Well hopefully that wont be it completely, just the one page would be odd when the other combined armies get quite a few pages.

Left Foot
08-03-2015, 00:19
So, I have very genuine needle as to why rats suckle chaos, whilst the ancients **** off in their pyramids. MAKES.NO.SENSE!


Lizards need to come back for 9th.

monkey10120
08-03-2015, 01:31
So, I have very genuine needle as to why rats suckle chaos, whilst the ancients **** off in their pyramids. MAKES.NO.SENSE!


Lizards need to come back for 9th.

If lizardmen don't comeback for 9th I will never buy a Gw product again.

Adam_Barrow
08-03-2015, 06:03
Wither from Skaven Plague Lore + Curse of the Leper from Lore of Nurgle = GG. Verminlord Corruptor and MoN Daemon Prince with those those two Lores can practically delete a unit a turn. Those Lores synergize crazy well.

Asmodai48
08-03-2015, 06:58
Another book to ignore.

Truthiness
08-03-2015, 07:19
It's almost certainly a battlescroll like the Grand Army of Karaz-a-Karak and not an army list. Go read the product description. It mentions "9 Battlescrolls detailing armies and formations depicted in the story" and no army lists. Quit causing unnecessary freak outs.

General_Vega
08-03-2015, 07:49
Wither from Skaven Plague Lore + Curse of the Leper from Lore of Nurgle = GG. Verminlord Corruptor and MoN Daemon Prince with those those two Lores can practically delete a unit a turn. Those Lores synergize crazy well.

This is the kind of stuff that cracks me up about GW rules development. The community had already figured out at least one absurdly broken combo before the book even came out. But somehow this either slipped past GW, or they literally just don't care anymore.

zunjinto
08-03-2015, 08:29
This is the kind of stuff that cracks me up about GW rules development. The community had already figured out at least one absurdly broken combo before the book even came out. But somehow this either slipped past GW, or they literally just don't care anymore.

its alright, you can calm yourself. Obviously like all the other fluff tied rules from ET this army list is also just there to help the player make an skaven/chaos army for playing the scenarios present in the book. Its the same with the elven list or all the incarnates/boosted chaos characthers. This is a campaign supplement for players to enjoy the theme for End times, not an alteration of Warhammer Fantasy Battles

Spiney Norman
08-03-2015, 09:19
This is the kind of stuff that cracks me up about GW rules development. The community had already figured out at least one absurdly broken combo before the book even came out. But somehow this either slipped past GW, or they literally just don't care anymore.

GW never cared about balancing the game when they had a commitment to it, how much less now they are a few months away from ramming it into the dirt and replacing it with something completely different?

Malagor
08-03-2015, 11:48
It's almost certainly a battlescroll like the Grand Army of Karaz-a-Karak and not an army list. Go read the product description. It mentions "9 Battlescrolls detailing armies and formations depicted in the story" and no army lists. Quit causing unnecessary freak outs.
Nope, it's an actual army list.

swordofglass
09-03-2015, 00:42
its alright, you can calm yourself. Obviously like all the other fluff tied rules from ET this army list is also just there to help the player make an skaven/chaos army for playing the scenarios present in the book. Its the same with the elven list or all the incarnates/boosted chaos characthers. This is a campaign supplement for players to enjoy the theme for End times, not an alteration of Warhammer Fantasy Battles

Strongly disagree. If the new combined army listd are intended to only be used in the ET scenario battles, GW have made damn sure not to mention this anywhere. Also, have you seen the cost of models lately? If someone spends 100+ on, say, daemons to add to their beastmen, should they really be told 'that's nice, but I'll only ever play against you in one of these rubbish scenarios, never a normal battle'? I think not.

Of course, the combined armies (especially this latest one) are so strong that I'd probably only want them to face off against each other. I guess I have just had to split my desire in two: I still desire to play WH, and ET battles are a lot of fun, so I do play them. I also desire a balanced and chess-like game, but I know WH will never accomodate that, especially with these ET books making fluff-based rules changes without any thought at all for balance or playability. So I will just write that off for the time being and enjoy some crazy battles.

linuvian
09-03-2015, 03:11
To answer the OP:

Grey Seer with misc equip (Grab wither)
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, typical gear (Grab Curse of Leper)
Cheap skaven BSB
Engineer w\ Doomrocket
3x40 Skavenslaves
4 Chaos Chariots
2x5 GR poison, slings
Chimera
2x WLC
2x Skullcannon

Make sure the Daemon prince is the general, keep him by the slaves for LD12 rerollables. Good game.

Fazhak
09-03-2015, 03:27
I am very intrigued by the possibility of a "leadership bomb" army, created through combinations made available through the new prospective Legion of the Everchosen.

* The Beastmen have a somewhat relatively inexpensive Magic Standard, the "Manbane Standard," which gives all enemy units within 6" -1 Leadership.
* The Daemons of Chaos have can purchase an upgrade for the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch, a "Blue Horror Crew," which gives all enemy units within 6" -1 Leadership.
* The Skaven have an expensive Magic Standard, the "Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat," which gives all enemy units within 12" -1 Leadership and makes enemy units in contact re-roll successful Leadership tests.
* The Skaven have an inexpensive Enchanted Item, the "Portents of Verminous Doom," which gives all enemy units in contact -1 Leadership.

Combined with Death Magic's "Doom and Darkness" spell, I am curious as to whether new opportunities might be available for previously underrepresented options. The Lore of the Wild's "Devolve" spell, along with the Jabberslythe, could have new utility as damage dealers. The Lores of Tzeentch and Slaanesh, respectively, could also intensify leadership penalties.

I don't necessarily think this theme could be the only focus of a competitive force. It could be interesting, though, and intensify a "shock and awe" build that dependably breaks opposing units on the charge. While Unbreakable units could still be a problem, ones that are Unstable would still have some potential difficulty.

Any thoughts on this confluence of leadership penalizing options?

forseer of fates
09-03-2015, 04:03
Chaos really don't need much that the skaven have to offer, mainly rare choices as nearly all chaos rare choices are so-so or meh (except for chariot cannon ofc). Stormfiends ahoy hoy.

Malagor
09-03-2015, 04:58
Make sure the Daemon prince is the general, keep him by the slaves for LD12 rerollables. Good game.
You can never go above LD10 so.

Fazhak
09-03-2015, 05:21
The leadership/characteristic cap is another reason I wonder if the Grand Legion could make for interesting leadership tampering builds.

With a targeted -7 penalty in the "best case", and a likely consistent blanket -1 to -3 otherwise, it seems this new list could create some interesting options for "shock and awe" play.

Chariots, knights, and other high-impact, highly maneuverable lists need to break their targets quickly, preferably in the first round of combat. The options listed above, combined with items and upgrades that grant bonuses on the charge, could be interesting and new.

Fazhak
09-03-2015, 06:48
This leadership focus is also supplemented by the fact the Grand Legion can take both the Beastmen's "Chalice of Dark Rain" and the Skaven's "Storm Banner". Being able to penalize two consecutive turns of ranged attacks, when most of one's own army can be made to move at least at M5, greatly reduces the efficacy of Dwarven gunlines, elven or goblin archers, Empire (and the rare Tomb Kings) war machine lists, or really any other ranged attack strategy.

So, it appears that the Beastmen and Skaven have a very solid leadership tampering synergy, which also can benefit from increased ranged attack protection. Any thoughts on these options, thus far?

daftpunkevo
09-03-2015, 06:52
A good list with skaven + chaos ?
Demon Prince
15 chariot
unkillable bsb

... Oh wait

Urgat
09-03-2015, 08:22
The ET books are background books to replay the stories, and their rules are there to allow that. Anybody trying to use the rules to make powerlists completely miss the point.

Memnos
09-03-2015, 09:14
So basically, aside from the Nurgle/Plague lore synergy, this doesn't really add much.

It does mean you can make some great lists, though: A Moulder list with various gribblies from the books, an army led by an intelligent Khorne general leading what is effectively a Napoleonic army of cavalry/artillery/infantry, etc.

I think this list could be used well as long as you don't do Nurgle/Plague. Easy way to stop it: In your gaming group, say "Sorry guys. Since Pestilens dies in Lustria and Glottkin in the Empire, there's not enough Nurgle-y dudes left to do what you want. And if your army is pre-End-times, they can't ally."

Evil Hypnotist
09-03-2015, 10:55
Any thoughts on this confluence of leadership penalizing options?

A couple of other options to consider: The Hellcannon also gives a -1 Ld panic test if it causes a wound. I have been planning on combo-ing this with Be'lakor's -1Ld within 12" special rule (Battlescroll).

CauCaSus
09-03-2015, 10:59
Haha, good luck trying to force other people to not take what you don't want them to take. If you're going to say that I as a Skaven player might as well say "I think the Chaos Legion lists are to strong, I won't allow you to field [options]".

The chaos books have some of the most powerful/complained about units and if you can't see how the Skaven army can use them other than "nurgle/plague lore synergy", then you obviously haven't looked at either army book very carefully.

Of the top of my head, I'd gladly take skullcannons instead of WLC and an unkillable flying DP in my skaven list if I wanted to make my army more powerful.

And cheap chaff and shooty skirmishers are two of the things the chaos army books lack to be even harder to deal with.

boli
09-03-2015, 11:52
combining Skaven army with others is always going to be ... difficult

Skaven as powerful and as broken as people say they are outside characters their entire strength is in the rare section. Sure you can add skavenslaves and spell casters but I would say that Character-wise Chaos are better than Skaven and skavenslaves are very limite3d in their role (hey this is a 100 wound unit!... and?).

So, you could add 15/23 point chaff units into Chaos - maybe a doomrocket?
Occasionally plaguemonks pushing a furnace and and odd doomwheel?

the actual worth skaven give to other books is pretty limited due to the skewed way the book is built.

Memnos
09-03-2015, 13:51
Haha, good luck trying to force other people to not take what you don't want them to take. If you're going to say that I as a Skaven player might as well say "I think the Chaos Legion lists are to strong, I won't allow you to field [options]".

The chaos books have some of the most powerful/complained about units and if you can't see how the Skaven army can use them other than "nurgle/plague lore synergy", then you obviously haven't looked at either army book very carefully.

Of the top of my head, I'd gladly take skullcannons instead of WLC and an unkillable flying DP in my skaven list if I wanted to make my army more powerful.
And cheap chaff and shooty skirmishers are two of the things the chaos army books lack to be even harder to deal with.

You're absolutely right. You should take skull cannons instead of Warp Lightning cannons: They're way better. Marauders are also way better than Clanrats, so you should probably take them. Characters are also way better in the Chaos Book than the Skaven book, so you should probably look at taking them. While you're at it, you should probably take Chaos' specials, too - Manticores fly, cause terror and synergize way better now that you've got Skull Cannons.

Jokes aside about how you're essentially just playing Chaos with skavenslave fodder now, I don't see a problem with that. Take a 100 unit-strong Skavenslave unit and add it to Chaos and I'd just shrug: You're giving up a Manticore for that and there are lots of ways to deal with a single unit. Take more than one and you're giving up a lot of killing power in Chaos and trading it for some bodies that... Might do something? Maybe? If I squint a little?

The leadership bomb thing is interesting, but it's points-heavy. Some sniper-spells from Orcs(Just as a for instance) and half your army is dead as you can't really afford good defenses for them.

The only broken combo is Nurgle/Plague. There are uses for other combos, but there are uses in the original army books.

HelloKitty
09-03-2015, 15:13
I'm ok with it because i have a strong feeling fantasy will be using official allies like 40k does - so get used to it now.

SuperHappyTime
09-03-2015, 20:50
I've always found myself comfortable with this standard list:
Vayl 2
Harrier
2 Angelius
2 Scythean
1 Ravagore
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (Max)
Spawning Vessel (Max)
2 Shepherds

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
10-03-2015, 02:04
GW never cared about balancing the game when they had a commitment to it, how much less now they are a few months away from ramming it into the dirt and replacing it with something completely different?

I can't wait until 9th hits, when we can finally bury this stinking, rotting corpse of a rumour in the mud where it belongs.

9th edition will be a revision of 8th, just like every other edition has been. And there will be an ally system, just like there has been in 40K for...what...2 editions now? Because it helps cross-sell different model ranges to existing players, and makes GW money.

Know what doesn't make GW money? Throwing untold amounts of money at the hype-train of End Times only to throw it all away by abandoning that very same system a few short months later. They might reshuffle the factions and their business model, but the game will remain fundamentally the same.

Spiney Norman
10-03-2015, 08:52
I can't wait until 9th hits, when we can finally bury this stinking, rotting corpse of a rumour in the mud where it belongs.

9th edition will be a revision of 8th, just like every other edition has been. And there will be an ally system, just like there has been in 40K for...what...2 editions now? Because it helps cross-sell different model ranges to existing players, and makes GW money.

Know what doesn't make GW money? Throwing untold amounts of money at the hype-train of End Times only to throw it all away by abandoning that very same system a few short months later. They might reshuffle the factions and their business model, but the game will remain fundamentally the same.

It's a brave man who is willing to bet against Harry and Darnok's rumours imo, of course you can believe whatever you want, that doesn't change the fact that Gw has never been trying to produce a balanced game, either that or they are so monstrously incompetant they don't deserve to be in business.

Scammel
10-03-2015, 09:03
...that doesn't change the fact that Gw has never been trying to produce a balanced game, either that or they are so monstrously incompetant they don't deserve to be in business.

They seem to have done alright with most of 8th, according to... well, you.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
10-03-2015, 20:23
It's a brave man who is willing to bet against Harry and Darnok's rumours imo, of course you can believe whatever you want, that doesn't change the fact that Gw has never been trying to produce a balanced game, either that or they are so monstrously incompetant they don't deserve to be in business.

Harry and Darnok have been wrong before, and this current round of rumours is so vague they can be interpreted any which way you want.

As for the perceived incompetence of GW, whichever way you slice it they've still managed to build the most successful miniatures company in the world three decades running. End Times nonsense aside, WHFB under 8th edition is in the best state its ever been in terms of game complexity, depth, and balance. Even blind squirrels find nuts some of the time.

I hear it repeated on these boards and around the internet ad nauseum that GW is planning on scrapping WHFB altogether to make room for some kind of skirmish game. However the assumptions this rumour is based on come from speculation with no basis in evidence (as GW doesn't do game-by-game breakdowns for different systems), and in light of the MASSIVE expenditure represented by the End Times product releases doesn't even make financial sense. Why spend all that time, energy, and resources hyping up a system they're just going to drop? It's ludicrous.

I anticipate that we will see some massive changes to the structure, fluff, and product cycle of WHFB. That much is certainly to be expected, based on the overwhelming common thread of rumours from multiple credible sources. However I reject outright the assumption that this will alter the landscape of the game so fundamentally as to be unrecognizable. I also reject the idea that they're going to scrap existing armies altogether, as it makes no sense to disrupt the community driving sales of your game in such a way.

Just watch. 9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th. There will be a skirmish "mode", which might even be the dominant marketing focus, but the standard game as its existed for decades will retain its fundamental character. They want to sell us MORE, not drive us away on a gamble that they'll get more players.

All of this is way off topic, though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

HelloKitty
10-03-2015, 20:44
I agree, and that is the direction my group is going.

NpSkully
10-03-2015, 21:12
Are you kidding? There are some sick things you can come up with for this. Herdstone spam with like 5 50 point warp lock engineers, the withering on lore of shadow chaos mages + plagueclaw catapults, gun lines that can rival the dwarves, hilariously OP plague everything armies, and the sheer fact that I can field my bloodthirster next to a Verminlord make this list awesome. Warriors get effective chaff, Skaven get effective close combat, Beastmen get better everything, and daemons get actual dudes with good armor. The fact that I can charge you with 30 bestigors, a doomwheel, a unit of kitted plaguebearers, and chaos knights all at once is definitely worth screaming about. I don't care if the rules are stupid and arbitrary, I am going to abuse the ever living bejesus out of them as I cast the withering, then rancid visitations, and then rattling cannon you with my 5 stormfiends.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath
10-03-2015, 21:33
Are you kidding? There are some sick things you can come up with for this. Herdstone spam with like 5 50 point warp lock engineers, the withering on lore of shadow chaos mages + plagueclaw catapults, gun lines that can rival the dwarves, hilariously OP plague everything armies, and the sheer fact that I can field my bloodthirster next to a Verminlord make this list awesome. Warriors get effective chaff, Skaven get effective close combat, Beastmen get better everything, and daemons get actual dudes with good armor. The fact that I can charge you with 30 bestigors, a doomwheel, a unit of kitted plaguebearers, and chaos knights all at once is definitely worth screaming about. I don't care if the rules are stupid and arbitrary, I am going to abuse the ever living bejesus out of them as I cast the withering, then rancid visitations, and then rattling cannon you with my 5 stormfiends.

People said this with the Undead Legions, until the combined USRs were released to show that many of the more abusive combinations weren't allowed.

I'll wait until I see the actual rules before I spend any time coming up with ridiculous combinations.

Memnos
10-03-2015, 22:15
Are you kidding? There are some sick things you can come up with for this. Herdstone spam with like 5 50 point warp lock engineers, the withering on lore of shadow chaos mages + plagueclaw catapults, gun lines that can rival the dwarves, hilariously OP plague everything armies, and the sheer fact that I can field my bloodthirster next to a Verminlord make this list awesome. Warriors get effective chaff, Skaven get effective close combat, Beastmen get better everything, and daemons get actual dudes with good armor. The fact that I can charge you with 30 bestigors, a doomwheel, a unit of kitted plaguebearers, and chaos knights all at once is definitely worth screaming about. I don't care if the rules are stupid and arbitrary, I am going to abuse the ever living bejesus out of them as I cast the withering, then rancid visitations, and then rattling cannon you with my 5 stormfiends.

Herdstone doesn't say "Wizard", it says "Shaman", so it doesn't work with the Warlock Engineer. Or with Chaos Shaman.

And 30 Bestigors, a Doomwheel, a unit of kitted Plaguebearers and Chaos Knights aren't exactly high synergy units. The Doomwheel even takes away from your Skull Cannon and Warp Lightning Cannon allotment or your monster mash list.

A gunline isn't really amazing, but if you want to do a specialized gunline you'll be taking mostly Skaven with a couple of Skull Cannons. Mild improvement, but nothing great.

You can't take Skaven magic on Chaos mages. You have to take Skaven Wizards to do that.

Fazhak
10-03-2015, 22:32
Regarding the "leadership bomb"...

The "Manbane Standard" would require a Bestigor Herd.

The "Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat" would require a Skaven Chieftain BSB, placed in either a unit of Stormvermin or Plague Monks, so that you also had a unit with the "Storm Banner".

You'd need one other Beastmen character with the "Chalice of Dark Rain" (highly likely to be included regardless) and one other Skaven character with the "Portents of Verminous Doom" (highly likely to be included).

In all, you are likely looking at two Beastmen characters (probably a Great Bray-Shaman and a Beastlord/Wargor) and two Skaven characters (probably a Skaven BSB and a Skaven combat character of some sort).

That's not too expensive, presuming a 2500pt to 3000pt spread, and, in terms of character expenses, most likely within the higher ranges of what would normally be purchased anyway. It could even allow Herdstone support, as the "Shard of the Herdstone" reads: "At the start of your Magic phase each friendly Wizard within 6" of the herdstone generates an additional power dice" (note that the Beastmen's "Skull of Rarkos", unfortunately, adds the restriction of "Beastmen" Wizards, while the "Shard of the Herdstone" benefits all friendly Wizards).

Nonetheless, even without magic, with the above you gain extraordinary protection from ranged attacks for the first two rounds of play, which is (at least in my experience with Beastmen) all that is usually needed prior to entering close combat. Likewise, even without Death magic, it is likely you are inflicting a -2 to -3 Leadership on the units you want broken the most. That can be quite significant, especially when facing otherwise Stubborn or Unbreakable/Unstable units.

This will require some experimentation, to determine the possible and proper balance of points. However, if the above is correct and the concept only requires two units (one of which, the Bestigor Herd, I'd likely take anyway) and three characters (the Great Bray-Shaman and Skaven BSB I'd likely take anyway), it seems worth our while to take a day or two and brainstorm the options.

Your thoughts?

HereComesTomorrow
10-03-2015, 23:20
Pretty sure StormVermin can take a 50pt banner.

HereComesTomorrow
10-03-2015, 23:28
Pretty sure StormVermin can take a 50pt banner.

Adam_Barrow
10-03-2015, 23:40
Stormies can, yes.

Flash Felix
11-03-2015, 00:33
So I got the following;

Grey Seer on Bell, with Earthing Rod and Skalm
BSB with Storm Banner
Warlock Engr, Level 1 with Condenser and Doomrocket
Warlock Engr, Level 1 with Dispel Scroll
Bray Shaman, Level 1, with Shard of the Herdstone
33 Clanrats, full command
40 Slaves, champ and muso
40 Slaves, champ and muso
39 Slaves, champ and muso
10 Pink Horrors, standard and muso
10 Pink Horrors, standard and muso
2 Rat Swarms
7 Gutter Runners, poison and slings
7 Gutter Runners, poison and slings
Skullcannon
Skullcannon
Warp Lightning Cannon
Warp Lightning Cannon

Essentially, it's the standard Skaven gunline list, with the Doomwheels/Abombs swapped for Skullcannons, Horrors and a Herdstone. Gameplay is very simple; sit behind a 129 Wound moat, and blow the bejeezus out of your opponent with cannons, the Bell, Storm of Chaos and more Magic Missiles than you can shake a stick at. Gutter Runners give some flexibility to affect your opponent's backline. The Herdstone guarantees a strong magic phase for your 6 casters, as well as a likely channeled PD each turn. The two Skullcannons can always revert to being heavy chariots if you need some combat punch. The 18" Ld bubble from the Bell helps to ensure Ld 10 in the Slaves, and most should be under the 12" BSB bubble too.

Elves will hate this list as they wade through Slaves while being magic missiled, while opposing gunlines will find it hard against 4 cannons (2 with ward saves), the Bell, Storm Banner and Gutter Runners. Even Monstrous Cav will have issues as they get Cannoned while killing Slaves.

Anyone fancy a game?

Lord Inquisitor
11-03-2015, 02:03
Just taking your average Chaos filth list and throwing the Storm Banner on top of it is enough to make my toes curl.

forseer of fates
11-03-2015, 02:12
You realise it only has effects on none magical shooting, so it has no effect on wood elves, dwarven artillery, irondrakes, anything with flaming sword or such spells cast on them.....

Lord Inquisitor
11-03-2015, 02:25
I believe it works on magical BS shooting but doesn't work on magical artillery. For some reason.

Flash Felix
11-03-2015, 03:03
I believe it works on magical BS shooting but doesn't work on magical artillery. For some reason.

In the Skaven book it says that, but the Errata issued for 8th edition now makes it apply to magical shooting too. So Skullcannons, runed Dwarf artillery and even Skaven war machines are affected by the Storm Banner.

I fricken' hate that thing.....

Lord Inquisitor
11-03-2015, 06:32
Ah, you are right. I was scratching my head over that because it does affect friendly things like warp lightning cannons. So all shooting magical or not is affected.

Wesser
11-03-2015, 07:59
So I got the following;

Grey Seer on Bell, with Earthing Rod and Skalm
BSB with Storm Banner
Warlock Engr, Level 1 with Condenser and Doomrocket
Warlock Engr, Level 1 with Dispel Scroll
Bray Shaman, Level 1, with Shard of the Herdstone
33 Clanrats, full command
40 Slaves, champ and muso
39 Slaves, champ and muso
10 Pink Horrors, standard and muso
10 Pink Horrors, standard and muso
2 Rat Swarms
7 Gutter Runners, poison and slings
7 Gutter Runners, poison and slings
Skullcannon
Skullcannon
Warp Lightning Cannon
Warp Lightning Cannon

Essentially, it's the standard Skaven gunline list, with the Doomwheels/Abombs swapped for Skullcannons, Horrors and a Herdstone. Gameplay is very simple; sit behind a 129 Wound moat, and blow the bejeezus out of your opponent with cannons, the Bell, Storm of Chaos and more Magic Missiles than you can shake a stick at. Gutter Runners give some flexibility to affect your opponent's backline. The Herdstone guarantees a strong magic phase for your 6 casters, as well as a likely channeled PD each turn. The two Skullcannons can always revert to being heavy chariots if you need some combat punch. The 18" Ld bubble from the Bell helps to ensure Ld 10 in the Slaves, and most should be under the 12" BSB bubble too.

Elves will hate this list as they wade through Slaves while being magic missiled, while opposing gunlines will find it hard against 4 cannons (2 with ward saves), the Bell, Storm Banner and Gutter Runners. Even Monstrous Cav will have issues as they get Cannoned while killing Slaves.

Anyone fancy a game?

Meh, think my bog standard casual Blood Dragon army would dismantle that easily enough. I often enough take a unit Blood Knights with Flag and a Vampire with MR2. That unit could probably chow your entire army by itself ( and so could a Red Fury lord, but I've stopped playing Red Fury as it got old...).

Flash Felix
11-03-2015, 12:24
Meh, think my bog standard casual Blood Dragon army would dismantle that easily enough. I often enough take a unit Blood Knights with Flag and a Vampire with MR2. That unit could probably chow your entire army by itself ( and so could a Red Fury lord, but I've stopped playing Red Fury as it got old...).

Maybe, nothing is perfect after all, and my proposed list has no combat punch to it. Looking at that list again, it could find 30 points for 2 15 point Engineers ready to run out 10" into a charge path to redirect your frenzied knights. And don't you have to overrun on the charge even if Slaves blow up? You'll have to be careful to not blow the Slaves up on your charge, maybe only kill half the unit, finish them off in your opponent's turn, then reform. Otherwise you're haring off in the wrong direction and wasting a turn.

Certainly the 4+ Ward and MR2 will stop almost all damage from spells, but the WLC and Skullcannons will still get shots through (though they may have to also deal with Terrorgheists). The Bray Shaman will probably be on Shadow, so Miasma will also slow you down.

Anyway, the list I put up was only the first of many, and more experienced players are likely to find much better combos. I know I wouldn't want to face it, but then I don't have a highly mobile smash-face army.

GrandmasterWang
12-03-2015, 09:07
Maybe, nothing is perfect after all, and my proposed list has no combat punch to it. Looking at that list again, it could find 30 points for 2 15 point Engineers ready to run out 10" into a charge path to redirect your frenzied knights. And don't you have to overrun on the charge even if Slaves blow up? You'll have to be careful to not blow the Slaves up on your charge, maybe only kill half the unit, finish them off in your opponent's turn, then reform. Otherwise you're haring off in the wrong direction and wasting a turn.

Certainly the 4+ Ward and MR2 will stop almost all damage from spells, but the WLC and Skullcannons will still get shots through (though they may have to also deal with Terrorgheists). The Bray Shaman will probably be on Shadow, so Miasma will also slow you down.

Anyway, the list I put up was only the first of many, and more experienced players are likely to find much better combos. I know I wouldn't want to face it, but then I don't have a highly mobile smash-face army.

How many points was your list in total?

I'd take it on at least a couple of times... but then I do that with any army.

Skullcannons I have said before are arguably the most broken unit in the game on a point/ratio basis so I can see many a cheese skaven army running them now. Warp cannon is muvh easier to kill and less predictable than the Khannon

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Evil Hypnotist
12-03-2015, 09:44
I will be welcoming Ratling cannon Stormfiends to my warriors and daemons. A lovely shooty unit I must say.

ROCKY
12-03-2015, 16:16
Herdstone doesn't say "Wizard", it says "Shaman", so it doesn't work with the Warlock Engineer. Or with Chaos Shaman.

And 30 Bestigors, a Doomwheel, a unit of kitted Plaguebearers and Chaos Knights aren't exactly high synergy units. The Doomwheel even takes away from your Skull Cannon and Warp Lightning Cannon allotment or your monster mash list.

A gunline isn't really amazing, but if you want to do a specialized gunline you'll be taking mostly Skaven with a couple of Skull Cannons. Mild improvement, but nothing great.

You can't take Skaven magic on Chaos mages. You have to take Skaven Wizards to do that.

You are definately incorrect I have the book in front of me and it says WIZARDS not shamans so I suggest you read before you type.