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Rufiodies
08-03-2015, 00:10
Whats the deal? How could the Emperor NOT have known about, say, the wulfen? or the thousands sons issues? or the blood angels red thirst? I figure he's probably better at making Space Marines, maybe he was just a pro and didn't have those issues, or maybe Terran genetics were just more stable, I dunno, it just seems fishy to me.

I remember reading some fluff about how Fenrisian's can handle SW gene seed/canis helix cause of special genetic crap (something with wolves obviously), and that the Wolf Brothers all turned to wulfen cause the planet they recruited from couldn't hack it. So Terrans, not being Fenrisian, don't have this, yet they still could make a Legion of Space Wolves from Terran stock no issues.

Maybe these issues weren't as prevalent then and were just considered aberrations?

I'd like to read a story about the first space marines made on terra, I wonder if they'd even have a legion or if they'd just be "generic" stock.

sweave
08-03-2015, 00:56
Whats the deal? How could the Emperor NOT have known about, say, the wulfen? or the thousands sons issues? or the blood angels red thirst? I figure he's probably better at making Space Marines, maybe he was just a pro and didn't have those issues, or maybe Terran genetics were just more stable, I dunno, it just seems fishy to me.

I remember reading some fluff about how Fenrisian's can handle SW gene seed/canis helix cause of special genetic crap (something with wolves obviously), and that the Wolf Brothers all turned to wulfen cause the planet they recruited from couldn't hack it. So Terrans, not being Fenrisian, don't have this, yet they still could make a Legion of Space Wolves from Terran stock no issues.

Maybe these issues weren't as prevalent then and were just considered aberrations?

I'd like to read a story about the first space marines made on terra, I wonder if they'd even have a legion or if they'd just be "generic" stock.

some of those issues emerged later on

the blood angels one for example as far as we know only started to appear well into the crusade after their primarch had been found.

the thousand sons issues where known and the legion was about to be disbanded when they found magnus and he "cured" them.

as far as the wulfen and the rest of the space wolves.

there was a purpose for the legion that is apparently hidden. so potentially the issue could have been known and hidden since they were worth having.

also we don't know if they canis helix was even present before the space wolves were raised from fenris or not. as far as i know the helix is something created on fenris by the original settlers. but the story is never exactly clear.

Thane Godri Thunderbrand
08-03-2015, 03:03
In a few BL stories from 2006(?), there was evidence that the Space Marines were better off without the gene seeds. Heck, I think an apothecary takes down a whole daemon legion single handedly. He died before he could tell anyone though.

BrainFireBob
08-03-2015, 03:05
I rather read it that they made more geneseed from the Primarchs directly when fiund, and chaos mutated them a bit, hence flaws.

Born Again
08-03-2015, 08:46
In a few BL stories from 2006(?), there was evidence that the Space Marines were better off without the gene seeds. Heck, I think an apothecary takes down a whole daemon legion single handedly. He died before he could tell anyone though.

Ummm... space marines require gene-seed. You can't have them without it. "Gene-seed" is the genetic material that the implants are made from... when they receive any of their 19 implants, they arr carrying the gene-seed... as for an apothecary taking down a whole daemon legion by himself... gee, and people complain about Mat Ward's fluff...

Rufiodies
08-03-2015, 19:17
In one of the Silver Skulls novels a marine gets his geneseed removed by The Red Corsairs and he survives, its implied that they would implant a recently deceased marine's gene seed in its place, but the guy seemed pretty broken up about it. I could compare it to a man getting his stuff cut off, he seemed to think he was less of a "man" now that he lost the "quintessence sacred"
So they can live, and probably still fight and all that, but they're out of circulation, no one will remember them, they wont live on, its pretty much the worst thing you can do to a space marine. having his whole body destroyed would be better than knowing your gene seed was stolen to be used by traitors and renegades.

The Black Shield
08-03-2015, 20:01
All of the Legions before the Heresy would remove the Gene Seed from Marines once the Gene Seeds were mature. Unfortunately the medical technology and knowledge to do so were lost over the Millennia.

Boris_Quarta_Jaw
08-03-2015, 21:53
There are two glads/organs that form when a space marine is made that can be used in the creation of gene-seed. I was under the impression that one is removed as it is matured and the other upon death. I don't recall it having any other purpose other than making more gene-seed.

Grey Seer Diatribe
09-03-2015, 02:16
The ability to implant one gene seed and grow a second one is key to rebuildung/regrowing a Legion by design. One at the base of the neck/skull area and the other in the chest cavity around the base of the neck I believe.

Rufiodies
09-03-2015, 09:55
Some of the fluff claims that memories/abilities can be inherited by the gene seed, so if you got the gene seed of some great warrior, it would help to make you a better warrior. Its stated that the gene seed gives you a connection to the warriors who had it before, kinda like a suit of exarch armor but not near as intense. but if thats true, wouldn't a marine made from gene seed that wasn't harvested until death be more able than one made from gene seed harvested at organ maturity?

Born Again
09-03-2015, 10:37
In one of the Silver Skulls novels a marine gets his geneseed removed by The Red Corsairs and he survives, its implied that they would implant a recently deceased marine's gene seed in its place, but the guy seemed pretty broken up about it. I could compare it to a man getting his stuff cut off, he seemed to think he was less of a "man" now that he lost the "quintessence sacred"
So they can live, and probably still fight and all that, but they're out of circulation, no one will remember them, they wont live on, its pretty much the worst thing you can do to a space marine. having his whole body destroyed would be better than knowing your gene seed was stolen to be used by traitors and renegades.

Yep, actually I've read the book and remember that. You're right they can survive without it, I was just referring to the idea of them being better off without the gene-seed... maybe I misunderstood, but I thought he was implying that you could somehow create marines without the geneseed being involved in the process at any stage.

There's also quite often confusion caused by people using the term gene-seed to refer to the progenoids. While even GW uses the terms interchangeably at times, in specific discussions such as this I find it best to use gene-seed to refer to the genetic material that is in all a marine's implants and traces them back to their Primarch, while the progenoids are the organs that are essentially genetic sponges, effectively soaking up the gene-seed to be used in the creation of more marines.


There are two glads/organs that form when a space marine is made that can be used in the creation of gene-seed. I was under the impression that one is removed as it is matured and the other upon death. I don't recall it having any other purpose other than making more gene-seed.

Correct. Removing one as soon as it is mature means you lessen the risk of them both being lost if a marine is entirely obliterated and his body beyond recover - a real possibility given the opponents and situations they face. I'm not sure why they would leave the second one in, possibly for gathering even more genetic memory and experience as Rufiodies suggests, or simply as a sort of 'spiritual' thing, as mentioned there's references to marines being emotionally distraught at being without it, although it was a different situation having it stolen than being used by your own Chapter.

Arthanor
09-03-2015, 15:22
Isn't the second one difficult to remove without adversely affecting the marine's health? Something like you almost need to kill the marine to get it, since it is in the middle of his chest (with the ribs now fused together)..

You put the glands in before the chest is completely fused up (however little sense that might actually make regarding one's ability to breathe...), two years later the chest is closed. Wait a few more years and the glands are ready so you harvest the accessible one at te neck, but have to wait until the marine dies to get the chest one.

Kurgan Ironbeard
09-03-2015, 21:27
In the latest short story Chirurgeon it explains the reason for the Emperor's Children's problems.

They were deliberately sabotaged by a cult

Flame Boy
11-03-2015, 19:13
All of the Legions before the Heresy would remove the Gene Seed from Marines once the Gene Seeds were mature. Unfortunately the medical technology and knowledge to do so were lost over the Millennia.

That's interesting, I'm currently reading The Damnation of Pythos, and it describes an Apothecary as being furious for being unable to recover his comrade's progenoid glands following a skirmish. (Born again is correct, the term gene seed was used interchangeably at this point)

The circumstances suggest in this instance that the progenoid glands weren't recovered earlier. The Apothecary would have recovered the viable progenoids prior to their away mission on Pythos if he were able, I'm sure all Legion ships would have temporary storage for recovered progenoid glands allowing him to do so. This could be a case of lore inconsistency. I personally like the idea of Heresy-era marines being able to successfully recover the progenoid glands from live marines, which was an ability later lost due to the fallout of the Horus Heresy. I personally think I recall reading that as of 41st millenium that only one of the two glands could be recovered from a live marines, but I can't remember where I read that.

Sir_Turalyon
12-03-2015, 18:44
Whats the deal? How could the Emperor NOT have known about, say, the wulfen? or the thousands sons issues? or the blood angels red thirst? I figure he's probably better at making Space Marines, maybe he was just a pro and didn't have those issues, or maybe Terran genetics were just more stable, I dunno, it just seems fishy to me.


The Space Marines were a crash program, stopgap solution made from leftover Primarch genetic material to keep launch of crusade on schedule. The Doom of Eldar was coming fast, the warp travel was about to become possible again, Chaos powers were sure to use the opportunity, too, the Emperor had to act quickly with tools at hand if he wanted to use window of opportunity to unite Humanity and organise it against Chaos and other threats. Hence the Marines, quick, dirty and self-replicating; they were not supposed to keep replicating their gene-seed for ten millenia, but to carry out the Crusade and become obsolete, or replaced with purpose-made super soldiers.

flota
14-03-2015, 22:17
There a 2 progenoids, one haversted once mature and the other when the astartes fall in battle.

The curious thing is that the blood angels use a kind of "sarcophagus" instead of the surgeries, and it's quite efficient while not 100 % effective

chris-crowing
14-03-2015, 22:33
To start with, the Emperor wasn't perfect and there were probably flaws inherent in the gene seed to start with, especially given the rush job to replace the stolen Primarchs with the Legiones Astartes.

Most of the flaws have been exacerbated over time due to the process of replication, with the loss of the 'pure' source of the Primarchs during/following the heresy also a problem when regulating the mutation. As has been intimated above, the Astartes were never intended to function without a Primarch or the oversight of the Emperor so it's conceivable that the Big E figured he'd be able to fix any issues that came up.

Of course, some regions have exceptional mutation, caused by local factors (Blood Angels being irradiated as mortals, Fenrisians having the canis helix, traitor legions being tainted by Chaos etc.) but as a rule, the process of replicating gene seed from fallen marines is imperfect and all Astartes are devolving to some degree.

Rufiodies
15-03-2015, 01:14
Space Marines are functionally immortal, I don't think this was just some random occurrence. and I don't think that the space marines were a "rush job" if anything the Thunder warriors were a rush job, but the Emperor apparently had be researching how to make the best super soldiers for quite some time before the Unity. I don't think anything he did was by accident or random occurrence.
Why would the Thunder Warriors die out but the space marines could live forever? He MADE the thunder warriors die ala Blade Runner, then he MADE the space marines immortal.

randian
15-03-2015, 03:05
Space marines aren't immortal. They age, albeit very slowly. Only the Primarchs appear to be immortal, and even then they weren't around long enough to tell for certain.

chris-crowing
15-03-2015, 18:43
It's never been shown whether or not Space Marines are immortal, because they all eventually die - kind of a work hazard, I suppose.

Yes, they age - most noticeably in the Space Wolves, who's whole organisation is based around warriors age - but as far as I'm aware none have ever died of old age.

Dante for example has been chapter master of the Blood Angels for over a millennia - implying that he's at least a millennia and a half, if not more old.

randian
15-03-2015, 19:36
I could have sworn that mention has been made of Marines being retired from front-line combat due to age. They become instructors or the like.

Rufiodies
15-03-2015, 20:27
Marines are functionally immortal baring any mortal wounds, given food, standard marine medical, I didn't say they'd be battle ready forever, just that they'd live ( if you call that life) It just so happens that no marines live that long cause they all die in battle, and I'm pretty sure if a marine got so old that he was just ruined physically, his commander would let him go die on the field of battle for honor's sake. If dreadnoughts can survive for 10,000 years plus that means the marine inside the dread is alive. If Bjorn the fell handed dies of old age, then i'll be proved wrong. That one salamander from the heresy survived sitting in a chair for 10,000 years, no food, no medical. Also they have the membrane thing that allows them to go into suspended animation so there is that.

Lord Damocles
15-03-2015, 20:51
Dante for example has been chapter master of the Blood Angels for over a millennia - implying that he's at least a millennia and a half, if not more old.
Dante is ~1100 years old. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?368832-Dante-Chapter-Master-of-the-Blood-Angels&p=6707314&viewfull=1#post6707314)

Born Again
16-03-2015, 09:00
The librarian in the Bloodquest graphic novel requested to join the mission to 'see the stars once more, as he nears the end of his days', or words to that effect. I don't have it here with me at the moment so can't check the exact wording, but it implied that he was facing old age. Unusual for a Blood Angel, as has been noted, they are particularly long lived and Dante is among the oldest.
I believe one of the early Horus Heresy novels, probably Horus Rising says something on this as well, in relation to Iacton Qruze. His age is often remarked upon, and he is taunted a number of times that he should have been long retired.
You also only have to look at depictions of space marines to see the aging difference, from the new recruits and Titus in the Ultramarines movie, to depictions of Logan Grimnar compared to Blood Claws.
Best to say they age very, very slowly, such, and with medical treatments and their enhanced physiques, would never die of old age, but probably get to a stage where they aren't suitable for front line combat. At that stage they probably take a more advisory or training role, or just keep at it regardless to die in battle with honour. Even an older marine that spends most of his time training scouts would take to the field of battle if the situation demanded - an old marine would still be more than a match for many combatants.

Karhedron
16-03-2015, 10:11
In the HH books, some of the characters say they think Marines are immortal but since they have only been around a couple of centuries at this point, it is not really clear. Whilst the vast majority of marines die in combat, there are a million of them in existence. Simple statistics suggest there should be a couple that just dodge that fatal bullet enough times to prove or disprove Marine immortality.

It only takes a few Marines to die of old age to prove they are not immortal. Then again, if it has never happened.....

AndrewGPaul
16-03-2015, 12:18
In one of the Silver Skulls novels a marine gets his geneseed removed by The Red Corsairs and he survives, its implied that they would implant a recently deceased marine's gene seed in its place, but the guy seemed pretty broken up about it. I could compare it to a man getting his stuff cut off, he seemed to think he was less of a "man" now that he lost the "quintessence sacred"
So they can live, and probably still fight and all that, but they're out of circulation, no one will remember them, they wont live on, its pretty much the worst thing you can do to a space marine. having his whole body destroyed would be better than knowing your gene seed was stolen to be used by traitors and renegades.

Do you mean that they removed all the implants - which would involve some major surgery to do, and I wouldn't have thought the Red Corsairs would be likely to sew him back up and apply a massive skin graft afterwards - or just that they removed his progenoid glands? in which case, I'm not surprised he survived, because they're supposed to come out.

Rufiodies
16-03-2015, 13:24
The space marine, named Porteus, was seriously injured during a raid on a communications tower or something, massive chest wound, and the red corsair apothecary, "The Corpsemaster" fixed him up and in the process, took out his progenoid gland. The one in the chest, I assume the one in his neck had already been removed. I think this is common practice with the Corsairs, because one of the Corsairs was a Space Wolf traitor, probably taken when the Corsairs stole the Wolf of Fenris, a space wolf battle barge, named Vollsanger, here's the passage

"Vollsanger's hand when unconsciously to his chest and Ryarus could only imagine what tortures the other Space Marine must have undergone, what horrors he must have been subjected to that had led to him committing the ultimate betrayal"

This leads me to believe that they also removed his progenoid A. to use it to make new marines and B. as part of the process of breaking captured loyalists to make them turn traitor. Plus its forshadowing towards Porteus having his taken, as they also attempt to turn him as well but run out of time so they leave him to be found by the Silver Skulls as an attempt to break their moral in the future.

another passage of what happens to a space marine once their progenoid is removed coming from a silver skulls apothecary being questioned by a senior librarian

"I cannot say" he admitted when Brand had asked what would happen to Porteus in the long term without the quintessence sacred... ..."he will most likely begin the process of shutting down, without the quintessence sacred, without the gift of our forefathers and our ultimate progenitor, he is just a man, large and strong, but just a man, he will fall prey to the ravages of time and he will eventually die"

The librarian then thinks to himself about how he could not tell Porteus the whole truth, because of his mental state, thinking it would be too cruel,

The librarian goes on to say, while speaking to porteus
"You are capable of functioning well enough without the implant, and in time, there may be another that can be given to you... ... we do not even know if you would survive the process of a second implantation, such a thing has never happened..."

Now he could be lying to Portues, as I said, he cannot bring himself to tell Porteus the whole truth, so maybe he's just trying to make him feel better.
Portues is confined to quarters and stripped of rank following this, he is considered tainted by the enemy and dangerous to his brothers.

Also, The Corpsemaster is considered a genius, even among the imperials, they mention studying his work from before he turned traitor. he's credited with saving Huron Blackheart's life after he was shot with a meltagun, so if anyone could remove the progenoid without killing the marine, he would be the guy. He's like a mini Fabius Bile.

Born Again
17-03-2015, 09:09
That was something I really didn't like about that book. It implied that marines need their progenoids to survive, and by having it removed he would eventually die of old age, but I've never seen anything outside that book to suggest otherwise. I'm sure it would be somewhat emotionally traumatic for the marine, but survivable. I think the author had the whole 'geneseed/ progenoids' mix up going on, and I'm surprised it got through their IP control guys.

Side note, I also thought she did a pretty poor job on portraying Huron's personality when compared to ADB's portrayal in Blood Reaver.

Rufiodies
17-03-2015, 09:49
Actually it implies otherwise, the Corpsemaster must think that marines can and will survive after the glands are removed, otherwise I don't think the Red Corsairs would be partially made up of marines who's progenoids are removed, and the Imperial (I keep wanting to say Loyalist, damn HH novels) apothecary has no idea beyond a guess.
"I cannot say"
Counter arguement to this would be that the Corsairs care little for the long term effects of such a removal, using those marines as fodder and expecting them to die before any negative effects took place. Maybe they only put stock in original "Astral Claws" and the Red Corsairs created from the stolen Progenoids.
In the case of Chaos Space Marines, its almost a better idea to remove the glands early on, as to protect them from being mutated by the warp and thus becoming worthless.

My view was that the progenoids contain gene seed, they're like testicles containing sperm, the gene seed taken from the progenoids is then used to gestate the implants. So while not interchangable, its not as if they are completely different. The progenoid is an organ that stores/replicates/matures gene seed. Is this correct?
I guess I would like to know if the implants require constant gene seed reinforcement throughout a space marine's lifespan to function correctly?

Karhedron
17-03-2015, 15:15
I guess I would like to know if the implants require constant gene seed reinforcement throughout a space marine's lifespan to function correctly?

This has never been stated or implied anywhere else in the fluff as far as I am aware. The closest I can find to a counter-argument is in Mephiston's fluff.


His gene-seed, dormant these many long years, had awakened and wrought further changes, granting exceptional strength and vigor.

This implies that the geneseed is not normally needed and that what happened to Mephiston was exceptional and turned him into Marine++.

AndrewGPaul
17-03-2015, 16:05
To me, it's not the physical trauma of removing the progenoid glands that is the issue; after all, they're supposed to be removed after five and ten years, and the lifespan of a Marine is usually longer than that. Certainly Dante and Ulrik the Slayer haven't had any problems on that score. :)

It's more likely the mental/emotional trauma of having the sacred geneseed, their link with their Chapter, traditions and Primarh, stolen. That's the same reason why the Corpsetaker Apothecaries were so reviled during the Badab War.

edit - after having read the second extract that Rufiodes posted, it looks like a flat-out error. The best I can do to explain it would be to retcon that the progenoid gland has two functions - the main one being to collect and store the germ cells of the implants to create new zygotes for harvesting, and also to provide the longevity of the Marines. Presumably proper surgical extraction of the geneseed leaves the remainder of the gland intact to carry out its secondary function, while more brutal methods will not do so.

The other option is that the Silver Skulls apothecary doesn't know what he's talking about, but that's not a satisfactory answer.

Rufiodies
18-03-2015, 05:13
The silver skulls apothecary states that he does not know what he's talking about, because such a thing has never happened, aka the chest gland has never been removed from a living marine. he says "I cannot say" he is guessing, educated guess, but still guessing.

This implies that they DO NOT remove the chest gland until after death EVER. This further implies that not only does it serve some purpose besides storing gene seed, it continues to mature through-out a marines lifetime, also, I've read fluff that states marines can connect to the previous carriers of the gene seed in some way, akin to the avatar connecting to previous avatars in the last airbender. I've never read any fluff that states they remove the glands after five AND ten years, only that the neck gland matures after 10 years. Maybe they use the different glands to produce different implant organs? or one makes the organs and the other makes the new progenoids?

In the second extract, of Librarian Brand speaking to Porteus, AFTER hearing what his apothecary had to say on the subject, and I'm going to have to believe that Brand took the Apothecaries guess as the most probable scenario, he lies to Porteus to give him hope, he then gives Porteus his personal "Orthodoxy", something considered sacred as well, to read while under confinement, to further boost his moral. Now the second thing, the giving of the "book of the prognosticators" could also be seen as a sign of hope, not porteus' hope, but Brand's hope, that Porteus WOULD survive the ordeal and make his way back to being a Silver Skull. Why else would he have given Porteus his personal orthodoxy? Why waste something like that on someone who was surely just going to die, and maybe even be executed by his own chapter? It could be guilt, or pity, but Space Marines seem to be able to make the tough decisions they have to make.

Born Again
18-03-2015, 08:36
I see what you're saying, Rufiodies, and it would make sense within the context of the novel if it were standing on its own, but taken amongst 20-odd years worth of other background (some of which states the progenoids are removed after 5 & 10 years, and specifically states that they have no purpose other than storing the gene-seed from living marines and not helping with their longevity), the only explanation I can give for that entire plot point in The Gildar Rift is that either the author seriously dun goofed on the whole thing, or that the Silver Skulls do things differently than most and genuinely don't know they can remove both organs without growing old and dying, because grimdark, technology is ancient magic, etc.

Bellerophon
18-03-2015, 12:21
Speaking of immortal marines

In Firedrake, Dak'ir meets an ancient Salamander, believed to be thousands of years old, so there is definite proof they can last quite a while

Karhedron
18-03-2015, 15:32
Speaking of immortal marines

In Firedrake, Dak'ir meets an ancient Salamander, believed to be thousands of years old, so there is definite proof they can last quite a while

Ah but had he been active all that time or hibernating via use of the Sus-an membrane? According to the old Compendium fluff,


The longest recorded period spent in suspended animation was undertaken by Brother Silas Err of the Dark Angels, who was revived after 567 years.

Either way, I think the record for a non-dreadnought marine is currently Cleutin of the Blood Angels.


As the senior Sergeant of the Chapter, it has fallen to Cleutin to be the current Guardian of the sacred shroud. It is rumoured that Cleutin is so old that he was the Sergeant in charge of Lord Commander Dante's Scout Squad when he was still an Aspirant.

This would mean he is pushing at least 1200 years old. A Salamander being thousands of years old would at least double the know record for Marine longevity and that is from a Chapter not noted for exceptional lifespans.

Rufiodies
19-03-2015, 06:24
He was on board a space craft that crash landed on some planet, I think there were some form of hostile alien life that him and his brothers had to protect the human survivors from, eventually all the other Salamanders died, and he was the only survivor, They found him sitting in some secret room of "spacecraft" which was now a underground city of sorts populated by the descendants of the humans, it crashed DURING THE HERESY! I could be wrong, maybe it was during the scourging? He was waiting to be found by his brothers so he could tell them something important, I don't remember what, he had practically grown into his seat, he couldn't be removed and then died after telling his tale. I don't think he was hibernating though, because he didn't require any sort of reanimation, I'm pretty sure marines need some form of medical help to come out of a sus-an coma.

Also knowing what we know now of Vulkan, maybe the salamanders have something in their gene seed that allows them to live longer in exceptional scenarios? Why don't we see any perpetual salamanders btw? or any marines for that matter? I'm gonna have to make a post about that now....

Bellerophon
22-03-2015, 02:35
Ah but had he been active all that time or hibernating via use of the Sus-an membrane? According to the old Compendium fluff,



Either way, I think the record for a non-dreadnought marine is currently Cleutin of the Blood Angels.



This would mean he is pushing at least 1200 years old. A Salamander being thousands of years old would at least double the know record for Marine longevity and that is from a Chapter not noted for exceptional lifespans.

I am still only on the second book so they haven't quite cleared everything about the ancient Salamander. But Legion-era Salamanders were fairly shrouded and not much is none. Given Vulkan's status as a Perpetual, it isn't that far a leap to think one of his sons could last that long.

doglogan
22-03-2015, 17:41
In the book Pandorax there is a grey knight from the heresy era that had been in some form of suspended animation for 10000 years, I don't think it says if it was sus-an stasis or not. It also says that he was originally a dark angel and implies his progenoids were removed and replaced with ones containing the emperors geneseed,which were removed by Abbadon and he survived the process.

The Warmaster
08-04-2015, 12:59
Either way, I think the record for a non-dreadnought marine is currently Cleutin of the Blood Angels.

Didn't Zho Sahaal manage to pull off an almost 10,000-year Sus-an coma in Lord of the Night?

(I don't remember if he was said to have experienced the entire 10,000 years in the process though - all I remember is that he was stuck in a warp storm at the time.)

BrainFireBob
09-04-2015, 01:14
Allright.

Progenoid gland implanted in neck. Maybe it prevents organ rejection, maybe it over-writes the pituitary with its own genetic imprint.

Second progenoid spontaneously forms in chest.

Both progenoids collect "germs" of other organs once implanted.

Progenoids are extracted- the neck one at 5 years, the chest anytime after 10. The germs are used to grow the implants again.

Apparently, there is some genetic feedback from the aspirant- possibly why they screen carefully for "genetic compatibility"- it would slow down the mutation rate. That's just a guess. And yes, this has Aliens all over it, with a face hugger implanted in the neck, the aspirant becoming a hybrid Alien, and a second face hugger growing in the chest.

It's hard to get the one out of the chest without killing the marine, so they do that at death. This is how a Chapter replenishes losses and grows. It is also probably what the Admech monitors- 15% of the "new" progenoids are matched to original samples for mutation rates.

So, the Emperor. Primarchs are lost. Uses their DNA to make gene-seed. He's growing it out of the material he has, and it has a set replication rate (For some reason, he apparently can't just rampantly replicate it). These are the original Terran marines. However, this is *not* what the material was designed for, and in his hurry, the gene-seed is a bit flawed- apparently in a gothic "humors out of balance" way. The Primarchs were originally perfect, their sons less so- Corax can cloud men's minds to become invisible, his sons drain of color. Whoops. Etc.

However, the Primarchs- perhaps all, perhaps only some- mutate slightly in their journies through the warp. When found, they have living breathing sources of material to grow *lots* of gene-seed, which is done. This gene-seed is not identical to the "old" gene-seed, because it's grown from mutated sources.

Then, you had a bunch of Admech in the Cursed Founding trying to "fix" some of the gene-seed flaws, possibly without "original" clean samples, by kit-bashing it.

For any given Marine, you then have the questions:

1) Is their flaw degeneration/mutation from their "human" predecessors (genetic material from the aspirant populations over time degrading the gene-seed; this may be the problem with the Canis Helix that is unique to the Fenrisian population)?
2) Is their flaw from the original gene-seed design (which was a rush job, resulting in the compulsive dogmatic obedience of the Word Bearers)?
3) Is their flaw from the Admech monkeying around with things it didn't understand because it's only half-biology with half Warp-sorcery (Cursed Founding, leading to things like the Black Dragons)?
4) Is their flaw from mutations Chaos made to their Primarch carelessy mixed into the general population before they could notice there was a difference (The Red Thirst probably fits here)?
5) What is the laden air speed of swallow?

BrainFireBob
09-04-2015, 01:15
Allright.

Progenoid gland implanted in neck. Maybe it prevents organ rejection, maybe it over-writes the pituitary with its own genetic imprint.

Second progenoid spontaneously forms in chest.

Both progenoids collect "germs" of other organs once implanted.

Progenoids are extracted- the neck one at 5 years, the chest anytime after 10. The germs are used to grow the implants again.

Apparently, there is some genetic feedback from the aspirant- possibly why they screen carefully for "genetic compatibility"- it would slow down the mutation rate. That's just a guess. And yes, this has Aliens all over it, with a face hugger implanted in the neck, the aspirant becoming a hybrid Alien, and a second face hugger growing in the chest.

It's hard to get the one out of the chest without killing the marine, so they do that at death. This is how a Chapter replenishes losses and grows. It is also probably what the Admech monitors- 15% of the "new" progenoids are matched to original samples for mutation rates.

So, the Emperor. Primarchs are lost. Uses their DNA to make gene-seed. He's growing it out of the material he has, and it has a set replication rate (For some reason, he apparently can't just rampantly replicate it). These are the original Terran marines. However, this is *not* what the material was designed for, and in his hurry, the gene-seed is a bit flawed- apparently in a gothic "humors out of balance" way. The Primarchs were originally perfect, their sons less so- Corax can cloud men's minds to become invisible, his sons drain of color. Whoops. Etc.

However, the Primarchs- perhaps all, perhaps only some- mutate slightly in their journies through the warp. When found, they have living breathing sources of material to grow *lots* of gene-seed, which is done. This gene-seed is not identical to the "old" gene-seed, because it's grown from mutated sources.

Then, you had a bunch of Admech in the Cursed Founding trying to "fix" some of the gene-seed flaws, possibly without "original" clean samples, by kit-bashing it.

For any given Marine, you then have the questions:

1) Is their flaw degeneration/mutation from their "human" predecessors (genetic material from the aspirant populations over time degrading the gene-seed; this may be the problem with the Canis Helix that is unique to the Fenrisian population)?
2) Is their flaw from the original gene-seed design (which was a rush job, resulting in the compulsive dogmatic obedience of the Word Bearers)?
3) Is their flaw from the Admech monkeying around with things it didn't understand because it's only half-biology with half Warp-sorcery (Cursed Founding, leading to things like the Black Dragons)?
4) Is their flaw from mutations Chaos made to their Primarch carelessy mixed into the general population before they could notice there was a difference (The Red Thirst probably fits here)?
5) What is the laden air speed of swallow?