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cpl_hicks
30-06-2006, 01:44
There have been numerous whinge threads about, now Iíve done this simple poll to see who is and who isnít dissatisfied with Games Workshop, as most other threads donít give an accurate number.
This dissatisfaction can be in any section of GW (white dwarf/prices/bad miniatures etc), but you have to do one simple thing.

If you are more dissatisfied than satisfied with GW vote Yes
If you are more satisfied than dissatisfied with GW vote No


+++EDIT++++

according to this post (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=774930&postcount=26), yes should have one more vote, and no should have one less

Suri_Mapother
30-06-2006, 01:48
I have trouble believing anyone would hit "yes" outside of people who money and time are of no value.

cpl_hicks
30-06-2006, 01:50
i think you mean no, clicking yes means you dont like the way GW is going, clicking no means you like the way GW is going, i hope the people who have already voted have got the right idea

Suri_Mapother
30-06-2006, 01:53
LOL.

Correct.

Smoking Frog
30-06-2006, 02:05
I hit no. I have no reason to be dissatisfied. The miniatures they make on the whole are quite nice (there are some though... what on earth were they thinking releasing the possessed, who look like spikey tickle-me's). The gaming community is large enough for me to participate in with different people every time. I can walk into a store and usually buy what I want (I have to order BFG models from England, but that doesn't bother me too much). I haven't experienced any issues with mail order or the online store.

I'm satisfied enough for something I see as a casual hobby. Photography is a far more expensive hobby for me. So is flying across the world to meet up with old friends and relatives. Not to mention souping up and fixing up my motorcycle and my old Pontiac (which is ridiculously expensive here in Oz, as the dealers sell the parts for seriously over-inflated prices, you think GW is over-inflated, you don't know over-inflated).

The Winslow
30-06-2006, 02:46
I'm never 100% happy with them, but definitely more satisfied than not. No lack of good figures to paint, always an army I want to start, and more than anything else, it's my lack of more time to paint and play that has me dissatisfied.

cailus
30-06-2006, 03:03
Overall I am dissatisfied and am actually feeling ripped off.

A quick-ish analysis of my dealings/experience with GW of late:

White Dwarf - total dissatisfaction and irritation at what White Dwarf has become. I hate the new White Dwarf with a passion.

Models - overall satisfied but there have been some shockers (e.g. Possessed). The new Eldar models are really nice as are the Vostroyans.

Codexes - Neutral. The Codexes have improved since 3rd ed but are still nowhere even close to the 2nd edition ones. The one major problem I have is the predominance of Space Marine codexes (SM/BT/BA/DA/SW/DH). I don't care that they are the flagship produuct. There are too many of them.

Release schedule - dissatisfied. Mainly there are too many bloody Marine releases while other armies such as Orks have been mostly ignored or delayed. The splash releases are also irritating. Basically they are a lame "buy now or you miss out" ploy.

The fact that some armies use ancient models (e.g. Chaos Dreadnought, Ork Gorka Morka & 2nd ed figures) while the Marines get a pointless new shiny toy nearly every month (e.g. Venerable Dread) really peeves me off. It's like GW wants everyone to play Marines!

Fluff - totally dissatisfied. The fluff is becoming simplistic and is aimed principally at children. It's the "goodies" versus the "baddies."

Rules - for the most part dissatisfied. Current rules in 40K still have no tactical element other than Stand and Shoot or Move and Charge. The latest disappointment was the Cities of Death rules which were crap and didn't really inspire me to play City Fight (though according to the Alpha and Gamma level requirements I am already playing City Fight anyway).

And then there's Codex Creep. Some armies have such obsolete rules that som units are useless under the current rule set. But these armies have to wait because some useless unnecessary marine codex needs to be created.

Online Store - overall disatisfied. The Online Store guys here in Australia are really reasonable and cool. But it's the lack of availability of Specialist games or even units for core games. For example just in the Chaos range the following are not available from the online store:

Raptor with Assault/Special Weapon
World Eaters Aspiring Champion
Chaos Biker Squad
Fabius Bile
Night Lords squad
Iron Warriors squad
Chaos Lieutenant/Lord (a much better model than the current Lord model)
Lord on Juggernaut
Death Guard Havoc bundle

Some of these are old models but others are not. And all are available in the UK. Just an example.

Also you cannot buy bitz at all in Australia which makes conversions a hideously expensive affair.

Prices - disatisfied. GW prices are becoming too extreme. There's a thing called value for money and more and more GW products are no longer value for money. Paying AUD$65 for 5 Terminators, AUD$30 for a 5 man Combat squad or AUD$26 for the Chaos Terminator Lord is daylight robbery.

So overall a big thumbs down for GW.

gjnoronh
30-06-2006, 03:06
I've said before I get good value for my GW dollar - certainly more than most of my other entertainment dollars. I just moved and unpacked my girlfriends 50 CD's collection at 15 bucks a piece that's a lot of money particularly given that most she doesn't use anymore.

Compared to other miniature companies I've invested in the past I'm getting more value - I can still use the minis I bought 16 years ago as opposed the minis from those companies that went out of business in the last 16 years.

Do I think GW is universally doing a great job as a business - nope. But I don't think the company I work for is doing an universlly great job.

Level of satisfaction for my investment - excellent

Adept
30-06-2006, 03:59
I voted No, I am not dissatisfied with GW. They provide a product and a service I greatly enjoy. Sure, I might not be able to buy as much as I'd like, due to prices, but that is about my only complaint. I even enjoy reading White Dwarf.

devolutionary
30-06-2006, 04:18
White Dward and the prices are the only reason for me to be unhappy. I like the new rules. Ultramarines have some swanky models now. Vostroyans rule. The Eldar stuff looks good, Tau came out right proper, Nids are awesome, and Orks have great promise. The prices are still well within my price range, and I'm happy to pay, since I prefer GWs models to those by Rackham and Reaper (and usually over PP, but I really like the WM fluff and style). I'm a generally content long time gamer. Their service has always been more than satisfactory.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-06-2006, 07:30
Well, no, I'm not dissatisified.

If I felt anything less than satisisfied, I wouldn't bother in the hobby.

Briareos
30-06-2006, 08:17
I am dissatisfied with Games Workshop products, but I do not feel ripped off as I do not buy them anymore.

You don't like it ? Stop buying it. No one is holding a gun to your head.

thommo
30-06-2006, 08:18
i voted no - i am pretty much happy with GW as a service. There are bits i don't like (White Dwarf and £4 delivery from the online store) but WD is easily dealt with by looking around the numerous web sites which seem to carry far more news, and there are numerous discount stores or i can go and order from the store if i want specific minis without paying dumb postge.

These negatives are far outweighed by the pros of the hobby.

Luke
30-06-2006, 08:31
I voted for the Hatred.


The models are nice sure, and at one point the rules were prety good. But they cost far far far far too much. Just compare GW's model pricing with ANY other wargames company and youll see what i mean. Companies like foundry and front rank produce excellent Cav figures for 2.50 and infantry (no matter how elite) for a quid a piece. Plus they offer bundle deals.


WD is quite frankly the next best thing to looking through an argos catalogue....except that I have to pay for the pleasure. Why don they just leave a stack of them outside the GW doors like the argos do? Surely that would boost sales or something...

Finn Sourscowl
30-06-2006, 08:31
Hmmm... if you'd said am I dissatisfied with WD then the answer would have been a resounding YES. However, that's only one small part of my gaming world. The positives I get from gaming (i.e. from Games Workshop) are far greater than the negatives. So I voted no. And seem to have made the poll exactly 50:50 :) That said, i wouldn't object to a freeze in prices for a few years, since a drop is far too much to hope for!

Splagbot
30-06-2006, 08:45
I voted yes, WD is bloody awful, even if there was nothing else I disliked about the way things are going at the moment and there is, that would be enough.

monkey child
30-06-2006, 08:52
i voted yes, obviously theres the WD issue but mainly its just that i feel the current incarnation of the game is aimed at people about 12 years younger than me. And as for not buying it if i dont like it, well i generally dont and instead spend my money on older WDs, codexes and rules books as they seem much more grown up ( as far as playing with toy soldiers can). it just seem games workshop is now just taking the fluff and rich character of this excellent background and stripping it down to its bare bones, with He-man space marines on one side, and evil camp it up bad guys on the other.

Jedi152
30-06-2006, 08:52
No. GW stuff is a hobby. It's not food, lighting or warmth - if i was dissatisfied i would leave the hobby. If i thought it was too expensive i wouldn't buy it.

I wish it was cheaper, but then i wish everything was cheaper - i'm p*ssed at having to pay £2.50 for a freetrade pineapple, but i don't hate Sainsburys for selling it.

Crube
30-06-2006, 09:04
Im about 50 50, but just ok at the moment, hence while I still buy and (occasionally) play.

WD is a bone of contention with me though...and I wll be going predominantly to discount retailers from now on...

Damien 1427
30-06-2006, 09:09
Nope. Most of the miniatures they put out are halfway decent (For every Possessed, we have the Kommandos. For every new Termintor Lord, we have the Vostys. And so on). The hobby is cheaper and a bit easier for me than my other one, collecting Transformers, because I've yet to see any single GW product sell for close to a grand, and I can just hop on a bus to the nearest stockist, rather than relying on eBay sellers marking them as "gifts" and Customs ignoring the contents so I don't get charged £50 customs fees for nine action figures. The customer service is excellent, and my dealings with returns have always been good.

The only area of the company I'm disapointed with is White Dwarf. Every single thing apart from that, is pretty good to great.

RevEv
30-06-2006, 09:41
I voted no.

GW has been my main, non sport, hobby for almost 10 years now. I have seen it develop from being purely model based to having a far more varied with a range of publications and side projects, and then down again to where it is now. I have seen the highs and lows of WD. But still I am satisfied.

Why?

GW still produce the most original and understandable games I have come across. I know its sad but I love rule books. I have looked at various games systems and found them unreadable and unusable without large numbers of co users (AD&D being the most prominent culprit here), or so obscure that few play it (I love the look of Cyberpunk 2020 - but can't get hold of the books or find people to play against). In addition the model range is awsome - OK, there are some mingers, but as most of those are Chaos (which I don't play) I don't complain. Customer service is excellent on the whole, even if I do tire of staff asking me whether I play because I don't look like the average gamer. As for cost .... try competing at Triathlon. If you take it seriously your looking at gym membership, pool membership,cycle equipment and maintenace, swim equipment, running equipment and maintenance, special diets, entrance fees, travel costs, accomodation costs, and so on - in comparison GW is far cheaper.

So, on the whole I'm satisfied.

Dr Death
30-06-2006, 09:43
Wouldnt some kind of grauation on this poll have worked better? At the moment it's something of a choice between Saying no and shutting up with complaints or saying yes and getting disowned with the cookie cutter "why are you in the hobby then?" argument.

Personally im far from "satisfied" with GW but i do still love the hobby i bought into 8 years ago. Here are but a few reasons for my dissatisfaction-

White Dwarf- If the poll had been about GW's monthly mag i would have definately voted yes i am dissatisfied. White Dwarf is a farce and everyone knows it could be better. Quality has gone from merely "better in the old days" to rediculousness and frankly i dont see any reason other than laziness that it's had to go this way.

Models- The plastics for warhammer and 40k are slipping back down the slope to the world of single pose and i for one dont like it. In addition to this GW are handing classic ranges over to rookie sculpters having promoted the people who made the ranges what they are into obscurity. Pay the masters more and give us a fresh range of Brian Nelson ork/c's and Jes Goodwin marines.

Release schedule- It took almost a year to release the first two army books for 4th ed 40k, nothing like the 4 in 6 months that 6th ed fantasy acheived in its opening stages. I dont know what caused this slide it but it certainly isnt an improovement. I suspect its a result of the aforementioned promotion programme whereby the people who actually get things done have either been quite rightly given a pay rise and a new position or else sodded off on their own ventures (Perry brothers and Andy Chambers are good examples). Splash releases are another irritation.

Prices- (well it had to be in there and i thought it too predictable to put it first:rolleyes: ) So for all this apathy and misantropy on GW's part we're actually being charged more? Annual price rises do not make for good customer relations, especially when they're upped by on average a quid a year. Frankly i couldnt give a sod how heavily GW market things and how super cool, fab, hip and groovy their latest featherweight plastic is- If anything GW's prices are pushing me away, im simply not getting a reasonable amount of stuff for my quid any more. GW may not be suffering but people are leaving or finding other cheaper places to buy and some time down the line GW may well find themselves in trouble.

Will i leave the hobby because of this dissatisfaction? Why should i want to stay if im this pissed off? I'll tell you why- because my loyalty is to the product rather than it's producer. I love the games and they have become an integeral part of my life to such a point that it would be emptier without them, but im not going to shut up and eat out of GW's hand if it means a choice between letting them impeed my enjoyment of the hobby or leaving it. Just as they have a right to annoy me with their policies, so i have a right to annoy them with my bitching.

Dr Death

Shadowheart
30-06-2006, 10:58
I'm not satisfied with the company. They're somewhere between a smaller, "for gamers by gamers" kind of outfit and a bigger, professional company. They pick whatever angle benefits them best at the time, but they should really make a choice one way or the other.
Sometimes their attitude is unprofessional or downright immature, mostly where complaints and criticism is concerned. Even if people are just whining, there's no need to come down with some "get out of our hobby, you losers" note.
Not to mention the forced "GW is great, GW is all" mantra evident in such cases as the monthly advertisement or the site polls. A lot of the (aggressive) negative attitude towards GW was bred by the company itself, and continues to be supported by it.

Aside from that though, if I just look at the products, I'm reasonably satisfied. Only reasonably because of the prices, which demand me to be increasingly critical. The average quality of the minis has gone up over the years, if not as fast as the cost. It's unfortunate that while the average mini is better, the worst minis are still just as bad.

My main interest now is in LotR, where the sculptors continue to do an outstanding job on any movie-based minis. So I'm satisfied with that. Some of the design team's "interpretations" of Middle-Earth are standing out in a very different way though.

Some sort of proper arrangement should be made for Specialist Games. I think that set a lot of bad blood because GW made all sorts of claims and promises when they launched SG, only to scale it down over the following years (we've closed down all our magazines, but fear not, a whole new mag will be here shortly. And then that'll be gone too.) They even ended up taking SG miniatures out of production some months ago. Result is that I don't have any trust in GW anymore regarding the support of these games, which very much deserve it.

strv
30-06-2006, 11:12
Good minis, those which are bad, I don't buy, I don't buy WD, since it turned bad, so I cant complain on that either.
Price is high, but I'ts not like I can't afford it, and I take long time to paint it anyway.

Venkh
30-06-2006, 13:24
White Dwarf Ė In the last year it has mutated into utter rubbish
Miniatures Ė On the whole, really excellent with some notable exceptions.
Rules Ė Very good but let down by extremely poor proof reading and even worse query resolution. With a few exceptions, most armies can be fairly competitive.
Supplements Ė Also very good and improving, however more fluff would be nice.
Stores Ė Really good, The staff in GW stores are particularly worthy of praise. If you wear a blue shirt, be proud Ė you all do a great job (in my experience)
Mail order - Superb service, buff your headsets guys, you are ace.
Website Ė I almost never visit it unless I want to troll on the forums. I donít feel that there is anything there for me.
Prices - Pretty high but as i have already bought just about everything else i need it doesnt bother me.

On the whole I am very satisfied with GW. They seem to be getting things right with their core products. My only area of concern is the way they communicate with their customers. WD, the Website, Q&Aís and FAQís need urgent attention.

Sureshot05
30-06-2006, 13:49
Ah nuts, there always has to be one and I'm it!

Voted for no when I meant yes.

My only prob with GW is WD, the rest of the issue's raised are nothing unusual in my opinion for GW and have always been there.

However, I feel the current state of WD is just terrible.

cpl_hicks
30-06-2006, 20:22
Wouldnt some kind of grauation on this poll have worked better? At the moment it's something of a choice between Saying no and shutting up with complaints or saying yes and getting disowned with the cookie cutter "why are you in the hobby then?" argument.


i did it as two questions to get the basic result, with any other expected results, we wouldnt get a clear cut answer

btw ive started a white dwarf dissatisfaction poll

RampagingRavener
30-06-2006, 21:01
I'm satisfied with the hobby. I like the models, I don't think WD is that bad, I have the money to pay for the models and I always feel I get good value for my money. While the Price rises are a little annoying, I honestly can't say I've ever cared that much about them-I love the hobby, and I'm willing to pay for it.

Venomizer
30-06-2006, 21:08
sure the prices are an annoyance (a double edged sword for me) and I raise a couple of eyebrows about some of the companies decisions every now & then but other than that I'm satisfied with the hobby

Hlokk
30-06-2006, 22:22
Im dissatisfied with GW on several counts:

1: The prices are obscene for what you get and in comparison with Mongoose and Privateer press
2: Models are very wonky in quality, ranging from superb to terrible
3: Inability to admit their wrong (Dark elf armybook, DA codex)
4: Lack of listening to the customer
5: absolute complete and utter demonstration of arrogance towards their customer base (perhaps your in the wrong hobby?)
6: Portraying itself as the wargames hobby, rather than acknowledging other companies.

Ah well, I know Trench_raider agrees with me

*summons trenchie*

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-06-2006, 22:36
Hlokk, your being a little obtuse there matey.

the Dark Elf and Dark Angels books both got a re-working, thus, this is an admission of mistake, and indeed, a good example of them listening to the customer.

On the subject of listening to customers, it's entirely possible that they listen a lot more than you give them credit for, and your unfortunately in the minority with your views. Please note the neutrality in the above statement!

Arrogance towards the customer base? well, thats somewhat subjective. And they do have a point. Why continue to involve yourself in something you don't like/don't enjoy?

Portraying itself as THE Hobby. Well, it doesn't. It mentions the GW Hobby, which as we discussed in another thread, is a valid description of their wares, as they range from the the models to background, paint to glue, and boards to scenery. GW do actually produce all you might ever need. Except actual tables for your house!

Suri_Mapother
30-06-2006, 22:43
I'm mostly dissatisfied at the rules. They keep streamlining their games to appeal to 12 year olds and not strategy-minded gamers. I’ve switched to PP and Rackham because their games actually feel like they take strategy as opposed to the point-and-click approach of GW. I can still somewhat stomach Fantasy and hopefully 7th edition won’t be a huge piece of crap.

Splagbot
30-06-2006, 22:55
I'm mostly dissatisfied at the rules. They keep streamlining their games to appeal to 12 year olds and not strategy-minded gamers. Iíve switched to PP and Rackham because their games actually feel like they take strategy as opposed to the point-and-click approach of GW. I can still somewhat stomach Fantasy and hopefully 7th edition wonít be a huge piece of crap.

I think your being a bit harsh, although I'm generally dissatisfied with GW, I still enjoy gaming as much as ever, if not more so, it's still possible to bamboozle your opponent with your tactical know how and it's quite satisfying when you do.

The rules had to be simplified due to the length of time it took to play games and also as there where to many loopholes in previous editions that some people where only too willing to exploit.

Easy E
01-07-2006, 00:25
I did not vote. To be perfectly honest, I have pretty much broken from dependence on GW for anything, so I am neither satisfied or disatisfied. That's not to say that I don't follow what's going on, but I rarely buy their stuff. Instead, I decided to DIY just about everything.

I use the Core rules and codexes, and even those were from 3rd edition with cobbled together upgrades and house rules for myself and fellows. If I needed I could also go back and just play 1st or 2nd edition, so have no use for anything new from them ruleswise.

If I want to play a particualr style of game, I create my own missions and even army lists. Not perfectly balanced? Who cares, its for kicks.

Background, I can get all I need from my existing books, forums, and creating my own thanks.

Armies, I scratchbuild just about everything. Terrain, again with the scratchbuilding.

So to be perfectly fair, I am neither satisfied or disatisfied. GW as a company are totally irrelevant to me and this hobby.

ReDavide
01-07-2006, 00:59
I voted no. Over the years I've learned what I can expect from GW (great minis & fluff) and what I can't expect (quality rules and reliable management).

If you don't expect it to be there in the first place and have no hope of it ever being there, it's no longer disappointing. It's just a fact of life that you deal with.

Codsticker
01-07-2006, 03:30
Although I voted "yes" my feelings are noted so simple summed up. I like some things (the plastic kits for example) while I dislike others. The later mostly being the state of the rules.

Sir_Turalyon
01-07-2006, 05:12
Let me think about it...

White Dwarf - don't get me started.

Models - I don't like new "spectacularity over aestethics" approach to models, present since 2004 at least. There are still new ranges, like Wood Elves or upcoming Eldar, being best of ranges made for said race. Unfortunately, for most armies I collect eighter older ranges are superior (Bretonnians,Orks, Guard) or there were no new minis for long time anyway (Dark ELves, Dark Eldar). I'm now buying mainly second hand, for aestethical purposes.

Codices / Army books - Last three armies I started are Orks, Dark Eldar and Chaos Dwarfs. One of choosing factor was long time till revision by GW, so I expect them to spoil armies by codex creep rather then improve them.

Release schedule - don't care anymore.

New Fluff - it's becoming rare to come by, and what we get is shallow and simplified.

Rules - it appears GW gave up creativity and imagination, and rested on polishing / capitalising on rulesets already developed. Last original ruleset for any system I recall was Cityfight (now largely replaced by CoD).

Other Goodies: There are still things like new Cityfight buliidings which make me believe there is hope for GW yet. I'm certain that creativity on making minis / terrain is not enough, and GW will need creative new rules / fluff before people get bored with balanced and repetitive games and quit... but there is at least some creativity there.

Overall: I'm still in the hobby and still have fun of it, so I consider myself satisfied. But I don't buy new miniatures (expect Dwarfs which i convert to CDs), don't start new armies and generaly rely on their past production rather then new ones.

No vote... until you specify you mean present GW activities, or all past archivements of GW I can still have fun from.

Dr Death
01-07-2006, 08:28
Arrogance towards the customer base? well, thats somewhat subjective. And they do have a point. Why continue to involve yourself in something you don't like/don't enjoy?

Well the thing is that we do like the hobby, it's just the management we have issues with and the execution of it. As it stands GW are making this a two way street- Either you love us to the hills, never complain and appreciate falling standards or you're in the wrong hobby so your opinions are worthless. Surely you can appreciate the need for some level of grey area? Opinions are more complex than "In" or "out" with this hobby. Why have customer service at all if the only reason its there is to placate us with free stuff? When was the last time someone actually got any real response from customer service on a complaint above and beyond "by tank's missing a bit"? At best you get a cookie cutter response that oozes the very arrogance you're complaining about.

White Dwarf's letter page is a farce. The only letters they print are either grovelly requests to get fan miniatures shown like the birthday card section on a kids show or slavish praise of, as you would put it Grotsnik- "so called" veterans telling us how WD has improoved massively when it's at its lowest trough i can remember.

The entire company is possessed of this overbearing arrogance which even as a fairly devout GW appreciator, i find hard to stomach. The "You're either with us or you're with the..." attitude has been done before. GW are mere amatuers at the tactic and it's doing them about as many favours.

Dr Death

Splagbot
01-07-2006, 12:08
White Dwarf's letter page is a farce.

What letters page?

Smoking Frog
01-07-2006, 12:41
The "You're either with us or you're with the..." attitude has been done before

Hehe... yes, this is an old fool's saying IMHO. :) How often have I heard someone say something like this. Such a simplistic outlook on anything can never be too good, simple solutions to complex problems are just as dangerous as complex solutions to simple problems... (read; not good!).

I'm a proud fencesitter! ;) I join sides as often as we would see a blue moon, rather I have my own opinion, and if for any reason it coincides with someone elses, all the better!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program... also, has anyone noticed how close this poll is, with a few more satisfied than not? Very interesting it is, almost as interesting as how some folk click yes because "WD is crap", when we're talking about a holistic view. Interesting is the key word there, as I don't want anyone's mis-interpretation to bear on my estranged conscience. :D

Edit: I cannot stand bad grammar and bad spelling. It so happens that the whisky in my hand has influenced my mental capacity at this moment, preventing me from typing correctly while in my mind the sounds of a flushing throne seem imminent. What I am talking about, i have not a clue... :)

Agamemnon2
01-07-2006, 14:45
Hah, I bet the GW-haters' brigade are already staring at the poll in disbelief and concocting hilarious, contrived theories about why their side didn't win by a landslide.

Pathetic.

Estragor
01-07-2006, 14:45
What letters page?

Indeed, for WD 319 they have removed the Letters page, Store Finder pages, Editorials and most of the Astronomican pages.

Oh and its 25 + pages less than 318.

Overall, I am happy with the games in general, however I am very dissastifed with the following:

1- Decline of White Dwarf
2- Raisng prices
3- GW Veteran (ie gaming) nights

Splagbot
01-07-2006, 15:09
Hah, I bet the GW-haters' brigade are already staring at the poll in disbelief and concocting hilarious, contrived theories about why their side didn't win by a landslide.

Pathetic.

1) I don't hate GW.

2) I never thought this poll was ever going to be won by a landslide, people have different opinions, if we didn't we wouldn't be posting here.

It was only a matter of time before some muppet who thinks that anyone with a different opinion to his deserves insults turned this into a slanging match.

Agamemnon2
01-07-2006, 15:21
Do not misread my intent, I was merely commenting that there are many, I'm sure, who thought this poll was predictable in that "nobody with half a mind could say they're satisfied with GW".

Splagbot
01-07-2006, 15:25
Do not misread my intent, I was merely commenting that there are many, I'm sure, who thought this poll was predictable in that "nobody with half a mind could say they're satisfied with GW".

Fair enough.

Suri_Mapother
01-07-2006, 16:15
I honestly think that at least half the people who voted "no" are just dragging their feet or trying to go against the grain.

RampagingRavener
01-07-2006, 16:43
I honestly think that at least half the people who voted "no" are just dragging their feet or trying to go against the grain.

Justify that assumption, please.

Agamemnon2
01-07-2006, 17:52
Yes, please do. That's exactly what I wanted to protest against, the anti-GW crowd trying to come across as an overwhelming majority.

As a corollary to the above suspicion, I honestly think that at least half the people who voted "yes" are still playing and enjoying the products of the company they're disappointed in while continuing existence as loyal customers.

Pause and reflect.

beardstache
01-07-2006, 19:01
I honestly can't say I'm satisfied. Fantasy is nice, but I can't say I still like 40k. It's full of stand and shoot armies and MEQs. The backround is great, but the rules just come short. I've pretty much moved away from it. BTW, was second ed 40k any good?

Splagbot
01-07-2006, 19:15
As a corollary to the above suspicion, I honestly think that at least half the people who voted "yes" are still playing and enjoying the products of the company they're disappointed in while continuing existence as loyal customers.

Pause and reflect.

Being dissatisfied with something doesn't mean you stop doing it, all it means is that being a loyal customer I am entitled to complain if I feel I am being treated unfairly.

CapitanGuinea
01-07-2006, 19:40
I vote no.

Though I'm a Marine player i have to quote this:



Overall I am dissatisfied and am actually feeling ripped off.

A quick-ish analysis of my dealings/experience with GW of late:

White Dwarf - total dissatisfaction and irritation at what White Dwarf has become. I hate the new White Dwarf with a passion.

Models - overall satisfied but there have been some shockers (e.g. Possessed). The new Eldar models are really nice as are the Vostroyans.

Codexes - Neutral. The Codexes have improved since 3rd ed but are still nowhere even close to the 2nd edition ones. The one major problem I have is the predominance of Space Marine codexes (SM/BT/BA/DA/SW/DH). I don't care that they are the flagship produuct. There are too many of them.

Release schedule - dissatisfied. Mainly there are too many bloody Marine releases while other armies such as Orks have been mostly ignored or delayed. The splash releases are also irritating. Basically they are a lame "buy now or you miss out" ploy.

The fact that some armies use ancient models (e.g. Chaos Dreadnought, Ork Gorka Morka & 2nd ed figures) while the Marines get a pointless new shiny toy nearly every month (e.g. Venerable Dread) really peeves me off. It's like GW wants everyone to play Marines!

Fluff - totally dissatisfied. The fluff is becoming simplistic and is aimed principally at children. It's the "goodies" versus the "baddies."

Rules - for the most part dissatisfied. Current rules in 40K still have no tactical element other than Stand and Shoot or Move and Charge. The latest disappointment was the Cities of Death rules which were crap and didn't really inspire me to play City Fight (though according to the Alpha and Gamma level requirements I am already playing City Fight anyway).

And then there's Codex Creep. Some armies have such obsolete rules that som units are useless under the current rule set. But these armies have to wait because some useless unnecessary marine codex needs to be created.

Online Store - overall disatisfied. The Online Store guys here in Australia are really reasonable and cool. But it's the lack of availability of Specialist games or even units for core games. For example just in the Chaos range the following are not available from the online store:

Raptor with Assault/Special Weapon
World Eaters Aspiring Champion
Chaos Biker Squad
Fabius Bile
Night Lords squad
Iron Warriors squad
Chaos Lieutenant/Lord (a much better model than the current Lord model)
Lord on Juggernaut
Death Guard Havoc bundle

Some of these are old models but others are not. And all are available in the UK. Just an example.

Also you cannot buy bitz at all in Australia which makes conversions a hideously expensive affair.

Prices - disatisfied. GW prices are becoming too extreme. There's a thing called value for money and more and more GW products are no longer value for money. Paying AUD$65 for 5 Terminators, AUD$30 for a 5 man Combat squad or AUD$26 for the Chaos Terminator Lord is daylight robbery.

So overall a big thumbs down for GW.

RampagingRavener
01-07-2006, 19:49
Being dissatisfied with something doesn't mean you stop doing it, all it means is that being a loyal customer I am entitled to complain if I feel I am being treated unfairly.

I think (and I may have the complete wrong end of the stick here) that Agamemnon2 didn't actually mean that he belives his own assumption, but it was just an example to show that baseless assumptions like "50% of people who say they are satisfied are just trying to look diffrent" and "50% of people who say they are not satisfied are still purchasing loyally from the company" are completely pointless, as they can't be proved or actually be made into good points.

Splagbot
01-07-2006, 19:51
If that is the case then again, fair enough.

dax
01-07-2006, 21:04
I'm generally satisfied with GW. I'm not happy with the way they've down sized Specialist games though.

Reabe
01-07-2006, 22:17
Dissatisfied.
Why? Well, for starters, GW is gleefully ignoring my army (Dogs of War) in favour of n00bs and their preicous Shrek-wannabes. Also, to an extent, Chaos and its many forms.
Now, Dogs of War can't currently be a "cash cow", unlike Chaos and Shrek-Newb-doms because, mainly, we have to either perchase the more expensive sets, or convert, which makes the time period between perchases larger, than a 13 year old saying "Mummy, mummy! I want the big, bad-looking ones, now!" Perhaps if Games Workshop put some effort into Dogs of War and made it so that it could be brought by the younger audience, with an Army Book and plastic models, perhaps, then it will be more popular. However, GW seems to put making new Chaos Warriors, even when there are already plastic ones made, more important than Dogs of War.

Secondly, prices, although I could be countered here in a "it's a luxery, if you can't afford it, don't buy it" fashion. Many people have already posted about this, so I won't bother as all that can be said has been said.

Thirdly, White Dwarf. There' just no appeal to buy it anymore. It's mostly crap and adverts.

TeddyC
01-07-2006, 22:38
Satisfied.

I buy what i want. I dont read too much into the 'codex creep' at the end of the day my regualr gaming group have their own armies built on the (admitedly declining) fluff rather than 'Unit X is unseless unless playing 235456point games and you take 3 or them etc.

GW as I see it, provide me with a lot of quality models (eldar, Vostoyrans, mainly metal ranges)... and some crap (possessed, new dwarfs, Giant, most plastic ranges). They provide me with paints.... admittedly some are better than others, reasonable brushes.

Fair enough you can say vallejo paints (sp?) are better, or 'the brushes arent as good as this'.... probably not. But for a casual hobby its all i want. People get far to anal about having the very best everything, yet put 2 armies next to each otehr using the different brushes/paints whatever, it will look no different to the GW ones.

What does wind me up... Space marines... THEY ARE DIFFERENT COLOURS... surely a decent sized army book (i.e. 2nd ed) could explain that different chapter have different traits... like Imperial Guard do. But hey... i dont collect space marines. Im not on tender hooks awaiting the newest release. I also dont give 2 hoots about white dwarf. it used to be nice to see modelling articles back around 200... but thinking about it... if they had them now i probably wouldnt read them.

Maybe that my problem... i dont expect too much of GW. :rolleyes:

Xisor
02-07-2006, 01:33
I voted no. My satisfaction with GW is by no means complete, and I'd say it's slowly sliding towards dissatisfaction, but currently: I still enjoy GW. I like their models. I enjoy thinking about their products. I enjoy the hobby I invest much of my money in.

There's alot of room for improvement, but I'm still satisfied.

Xisor

Heru Talon
02-07-2006, 01:50
I put yes (yes means you aren't happy with the way GW is going, no means you are happy with it...).


The Codices are great, the models are great BUT the prices are beyond stupid, the advertising is a joke (hit the customer over the head with the Giant and he still won't buy it), and WD is rotting way (I want hobby content, not just a model catalogue!!)


meh rant over.

John Wayne II
02-07-2006, 11:36
No. Although I wish it was cheaper.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
02-07-2006, 11:52
I am satisfied. There has been loads of great releases of the things I like (Guard and SM) over the past 3 years, some excellent new codices, the CoD stuff, some great books from th BL, and a continuos stream of great stuff from Forgeworld.

The only thing that has annoyed me recently is the marginalisation of the specialist games and the lack of new releases (particularly the new IN ships for BFG).

Despite that, I remain very satisfied with GW at the present time.

Suri_Mapother
02-07-2006, 21:18
50% unsatisfaction is pretty horrible for a company in a niche market.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-07-2006, 01:13
But when you consider that 160 people, out of a gaming populace of several hundred thousand can actually be arsed to vote, you suddenly realise that such polls mean little, unless every last gamer on the planet votes.

Suri_Mapother
03-07-2006, 01:31
It doesn't matter how many vote, only if the vote is representative of the population, which we have no way of knowing.

muskrat
03-07-2006, 02:11
calius hit every nail on the head in my opinion...

except he said the vostroyans look good.

They look stupid as all hell to me...stupid guns, those dumb furry hats... people wanted plastic greatcoats, iirc, not a revamped valhallan russian regiment that is supposedly awesome cityfighters, like cadians.

edit- i think the populace, as a majority vote, is a bit miffed. Evidence? I point to the petition about pricing above/below.

Adept
03-07-2006, 06:10
They look stupid as all hell to me...stupid guns, those dumb furry hats... people wanted plastic greatcoats, iirc, not a revamped valhallan russian regiment that is supposedly awesome cityfighters, like cadians.

I totally agree. As an army, the Vostroyans look stupid. I think they'd look good as a unit of Valhallan Stormtroopers though.

Shadowheart
03-07-2006, 07:09
And I totally disagree. I can't quite see how the term "stupid" can apply to miniatures anyway. Yeah, they look odd. They would, being based off of Blanche's sketches. It's good to see GW has the balls to bring out something that's got a distinct style, and I hope we'll see more of it.
Besides which I find it laughable that people will complain about lack of realism in some 40K miniatures ("the hats are too big!") when 40K miniatures in general are unrealistic.


But when you consider that 160 people, out of a gaming populace of several hundred thousand can actually be arsed to vote, you suddenly realise that such polls mean little, unless every last gamer on the planet votes.

Looks like GW's stalwart defenders have found themselves a solid shield to use. Doesn't matter what anyone says, if you can't prove your opinion is that of the majority, it counts as that of a minority. I've got a feeling this is going to be the default way to dismiss any criticism from now on, until a new trick is discovered.

Dr Death
03-07-2006, 08:13
You do realise how any matter concerning the public are measured dont you Grotsnik? The researchers dont track down every last person in the doomsday book, making sure their voice be heard lest the results of the question be inaccurate. No quite the reverse- They grab the first 100-1000 (depending how vital it is) people they can find and who are willing, note down their answers and use that. I dont know the technical name (i would imagine something like "representative demographic") but that is standard statistical proceedure.

Now while could counter that by the usual response of "but this is a forum and forumer's are generally opinionated extremes of society" we can say without a shadow of a doubt that 50% of people on the forum are not only dissatisfied in some capacity but more dissatisfied than satisfied (the poll doesnt include the options for those who are dissatisfied with alot of things but are ultimately satisfied with the overall experience). I also like to think that Warseer has a pretty wide range of people from across the gaming demographic within its community and so it may well be more accurate than a site focused on a single race like say Bolter and Chainsword... or fallen into anarchy like some of the other forums i could care to mention...

Whichever way you slice it, this poll shows that there is an awful lot of dissatisfaction among the gaming community and only a fool would try to deny the writing is on the wall with this. Unfourtunatly most of us, myself included rather like the games they've collected and played for a good few years and so are not going to do as you usually perscribe Grotsnik and sod off. The reason this is unfourtunate (because the mass exodus of all us nasty complainers wouldnt be) is because there will be no change because ultimately so long as the money keeps rolling in GW couldnt give a flaming monkies whether their custumer base is happy or not. But as your argument goes Grotsnik- That's business.

Dr Death

Axel
03-07-2006, 08:34
Honestly, if I am really not satisfied with a company, I get rid of their stuff and don`t haunt a forum that dwells almost exclusively with them.

When Battlefront managed to send me two unusable blisters (out of my very first order of three with their company) and then failed to replace them properly, I just left FOW.

Mr Tiddles
03-07-2006, 08:36
Whichever way you slice it, this poll shows that there is an awful lot of dissatisfaction among the gaming community and only a fool would try to deny the writing is on the wall with this.

Dr Death

Actually I think the opposite.
This poll is representative of the views of a small number of people within the gaming community.
Specifically a group known for their antipathy towards GW (Warseer is generally a byword for internet folks complaining about GW). It is also a self selecting poll, further narrowing the demographic (if that's the word you like to use).
The fact that of that sample 50% think GW is performing satisfactorily is quite surprising to me and suggests they are doing a generally pretty good job.
It's like asking a bunch of turkeys in the run up to Christmas if they think the farmer is doing a good job or not. Apparently 50% of us turkeys think he is.

Oh, and by the way your analysis of how companies doing research select their respondents is way wide of the mark.

muskrat
03-07-2006, 08:59
Also Doc. The gaming populace of GW isn't confined to these boards. I can name at least four people I know NOT on this boards, and as such do not have the ability to "not be arsed to vote."

If a reasonable demographic of people (in this case, 160 people, give or take) are happy and half the others aren't, it's simply good business to change and try and recover those 50% that are unhappy.

Frankly, I don't know your financial situation, nor do I know anyone else's on these boards. But I can assume that those who have the money to blow $25.00 a week on five plastic minis are a bit better off than I am. Because frankly, I don't. Tried to buy a paint set, looking for the crappy throw away guys and the assortment of paints- I find a 3 marine "squad," a brush, and five, low quantity, low quality tubbed paints which are all useless to anyone outside of an ultramarine player! It's a battle for macragge box set- the least they do is connect it to the other army in said battle.

I've walked away from this hobby before. And apparently, others have too, and and still are. Which is why GW is constantly losing money- along with stupid business ideas like the paint set, the "battle mat," unreleased CoD sprues and the like. Things that can't sell to a wide audience in a diverse and global game aren't going to make money.

Bush beat Kerry over here in the states by the same margin that this poll is at. And now, the dissatisfactional poll of him in less then 30% (i believe) That's what happens when you assume "50% percent of the people like me. now i can do anything." Enemies don't become allies without change, and allies can swiftly become enemies in the face of dogsh!t.



For my comments on the Vostroyans- the miniatures look stupid. The wooden handle, curving off the end of a lasgun- not good for cityfighting, as it makes a longer gun. Bearded men walking stereotypically around in their fur hats (which i never compalined about them being big nor unrealistic) like it's stalingrad. They are simply not good looking. Stupid looking, actually. Not visually appealing to the eye. Which is kind of expected from something based off Blanche's work, on a side note.

gjnoronh
03-07-2006, 14:05
Representative sampling depends on selecting a population that you think is representative of the population you are trying to survey.

So for example you wouldn't survey a nursing home, or a group of 30 year old office workers about trends in popular music if your target demographic was teenagers. Even if those 30 year olds listened to the same pop radio stations. . because you know the spending/music habits of 30 year olds don't reflect your target demographic.

The question raised is how representative is warseer - given that the GW complaint threads are far more frequent here than on other forums I frequent (www.thedaemoniclegion.com, the herdstone, druchii.net, and locally www.roguesden.com, www.ruinouspowers.org, www.ren-games.com) it suggests we are not a representative sample - how many folks who voted in the poll no longer are playing GW?

Well how good are forums at representing GW's customer base?


"Shall I direct your attention to the fact there was a petition started on the GW forums to resculpt the Knights of Dol-Amroth because they were so bork? "

Yet they went on to be the highest-selling blister packets of 2005, outselling everyother blister the company sold, including Space Marines?

An example that the web community, for all our claims of being representative of joe average, can also be woefully out of touch with how GW's customer's think.


That being said Warseer according to the count on the bottom of the forums page has :
Threads: 38,268, Posts: 767,828, Members: 12,289, Active Members: 4,966 and as of this moment:
Currently Active Users: 531 (218 members and 313 guests)

That's a lot of folks intently reading this site for GW stuff. I find that impressive.


Unfourtunatly most of us, myself included rather like the games they've collected and played for a good few years and so are not going to do as you usually perscribe Grotsnik and sod off.


For all the threads that Warseer has on complaints folks keep coming to this site to talk about GW - that's some customer loyalty.

I'm glad you aren't leave Dr Death - but it's interesting that even the disattisfied 50% "rather like the games they've collected and played" and aren'g going to "sod off" so while you could say the "non disatisfied" group aren't fully satisfied, apparently even the disatisfied are happy enough to keep playing the games - even though there are competitors out there.

Dr Death I agree it would be nice for GW to bring back the disatisfied 50% - however there are (unfortunately) sometimes reasons companies don't - WD doesn't fit my needs currently but if every 16 year veteran like myself they lose is replaced by 2 new players attracted by the current format - they are doing well. I'm not suggesting I'm an advertising or company executive who knows what's the right approach with this product line- but it's a reason companies don't always try to reach out to the disatisfied.

Do you think Pop Rocks (a US Candy company) cares that their product doesn't appeal to me? Nope because they aren't trying to maximize their satisfaction amongst adult customers.

I'm _not_ suggesting "sod off" but like with presidential campaigns in the US. If you are disatisfied VOTE. For corporate america that VOTE is the dollar - NOT on an internet forum. When you buy something on EBAY, or off your buddy, or from a proxy miniature from another company you are voting against that company, because they are losing a potential sale. Enough of that and you can vote a company out of office (drive them out of business.) A "satisfied" customor who is buying second hand off of ebay is still a loss for a corporation - it's a vote against.

Me I'm voting with my dollar in a way that makes sense to me. I like a company that's been around for twenty years making these toys and I know that if I put my dollar down it's likely to be still worth something in 10 years.

Heru Talon
03-07-2006, 18:44
Why is it I read that a number of people aren't satisfied with GW and yet put No...

Man way to confuse people with a poll, now if it was "Are you satisfied with GW?" some people wouldn't of been confused and pushed the wrong button (I almost pushed no myself, thinking that by pushing no I'd be saying I wasn't satisfied... then I noticed took a mintute to re-read the options, noticing that in order to say I wasn't satisfied I'd have to push yes...).

I'd say this poll is possibly broken... (that's not saying that I think there should be more yes's or no's).


Oh and btw I like the Vostroyons (especially the ones with Gasmasks...).

Western
05-07-2006, 07:43
I'm not a tourney player nor do i play at the store, play at an indy (so i can field whatever models i choose to). I collect Mordheim (Witchhunters, Possessed, and planning a 'Pirate force' - even have a pirate monkey i plan converting a rifle on), planning on slowly building a highelf force (have picked up a model or two from other ranges, will keep doing so if i see models i like) and planing an army from a different wargame/company. I'm dissatisfied with certain things in GW but, i've worked around them so they don't really matter to me.

Dr Death
05-07-2006, 10:09
Well there is a flaw with your comment on warseer- you imply that because Warseer has alot of complainers that doesnt make them reliable as a source of representation of the gaming community. But surely that cant be right- a person's opinion is completely separate from their suitability to have their veiws recorded. Im sure politicians at the polls cant dispute their popularity rating by saying "oh the people you polled arent reliable because they dont like me" which is what you seem to be saying.

If Warseer was comprised purely of disgruntled eldar players or even something as broad as not including specialist games, then you would have a point but you cant judge someone's reliability on whether they agree with you or not. Warseer does have something of a reputation for GW dissent but that's just the vocal minority- in a poll like this everyone only gets to vote once, so what you see here is a 50/50 (more or less) split of the widest possible range of forumers (far more of a range than you would get on bolter and chainsword or The Last Alliance). It also might just be the case that the reason Warseer has a reputation for disgruntlement is because the gaming community is actually disgruntled, certainly GW gamers are by and large more computer literate than say golfers and so you dont have to stand out on the street in a rainy day with your clipboard asking every passer by if they are a gamer. With forums, your demographic come to you and place themselves in a nice little club.

So yes, i fail to see how you can really challange the results of this poll to the point of "reasonable doubt" if you will. If there is something i've neglected to see then by all means point it out to me, but for myself, untill i see damning evidence of inaccuracy im quite content to take this as a halfway reliable guide to the mood of the demos.

Dr Death

Major Thom
05-07-2006, 13:47
You need a "neither satisfied or dissatisfied" option.

gjnoronh
05-07-2006, 14:40
but you cant judge someone's reliability on whether they agree with you or not. SNIP
It also might just be the case that the reason Warseer has a reputation for disgruntlement is because the gaming community is actually disgruntled, certainly GW gamers are by and large more computer literate than say golfers and so you dont have to stand out on the street in a rainy day with your clipboard asking every passer by if they are a gamer. With forums, your demographic come to you and place themselves in a nice little club.
Dr Death

Dr Death I'm really not challenging the results of this poll of warseer members. What I was discussing was how generalizable this poll is. I gave a specific example of a poll of forum members that completely failed to reflect the viewpoint of GW gamers.


This poll says out of 200 or so out of 12,000 warseer members who choose to read threads about GW satisfaction (because all of us pick certain thread topics to read and many to skip) we have a 50 / 50 split.


If warseer was a good representation of GW members then on other GW forums you'd expect to see a similar amount of complaint threads. A General forum theoretically shouldn't have any diffeerence in level of satisfaction than a specialized forum.

But the number of complaint threads on warseer are far more than on other forums I attend - which has to raise the concerns about representability.

A person disagreeing with me doesn't mean their opinion doesn't count, however when you are trying to determine "what the population thinks" you need to pick a representative sample

I agree a lot of gamers are internet savvy, however there are a lot of younger players amongst any gaming companies target audience - folks who don't havea desk job to type on the computer or aren't as savvy as some of us older folks who peruse forums regularly.

Gary

cpl_hicks
05-07-2006, 14:47
This poll says out of 200 or so out of 12,000 warseer members who choose to read threads about GW satisfaction (because all of us pick certain thread topics to read and many to skip) we have a 50 / 50 split.


though the main page says we have 12,360 members, that is the total number of people registered with warseer, we only in fact have 4,989 active members, these are members who are actively posting after a set time, (we would have to ask nick what the time is until you come inactive)

so its 200 out of 5000 members not 200 out of 12,000

Suri_Mapother
05-07-2006, 17:06
But the number of complaint threads on warseer are far more than on other forums I attend .

Oh brother. Which other ones?

Remember Critical Hit? Nothing but complaining there.

Even on The Warhammer Forum there is nothing but complaining and arguments over how GW handles things.

gjnoronh
05-07-2006, 17:23
Oh brother. Which other ones?

Errr I geuss you failed to read the post on the top of the page.


Representative sampling depends on selecting a population that you think is representative of the population you are trying to survey.

SNIP

The question raised is how representative is warseer - given that the GW complaint threads are far more frequent here than on other forums I frequent (www.thedaemoniclegion.com, the herdstone, druchii.net, and locally www.roguesden.com, www.ruinouspowers.org, www.ren-games.com) it suggests we are not a representative sample - SNIP
.

cpl_hicks
05-07-2006, 22:27
Errr I geuss you failed to read the post on the top of the page.

warseer.com has 4,989 registered active users

rogues den has 447 registered users
Renaissance Games has 39 registered users
Daemonic Legion has 531 registered users
ruinous powers i cannot find the number of members off hand but the top person in there new members list is user number 64
druchii.net has 10.424 registered users
herdstone 1,267 registered users

all the ones you mentioned dont say if the users are active or not, but the only forum that has more members than warseer is druchii, and i dont think all ten thousand of them are active

so only one of the 6 forums you mentioned would be comparable with warseer

bertcom1
05-07-2006, 22:41
I voted for dissatisfaction.

Because I think GW could do better, in many areas.

Models could be better,
Publications could be better.

However, I like their helpfulness in correcting faulty merchandise.

I like most of the games, and buy a lot of stuff, but I think that GW could be better than they are.

gjnoronh
05-07-2006, 23:03
all the ones you mentioned dont say if the users are active or not, but the only forum that has more members than warseer is druchii, and i dont think all ten thousand of them are active

so only one of the 6 forums you mentioned would be comparable with warseer

I agree Warseer is one of the biggest out there, and certainly only Druchii isn't quite as big

The point isn't that warseer isn't a big forum - but how representative it is.

Let's be clear I'm NOT saying that
A) I'm fully satisfied with GW
B) Everyone else is satisfied with GW (and warseer is completely abberant)


What I'm discussing is how reflective OUR results are of the general population of GW gamers.

To use the most extreme example if 50% of GW gamers are disatisfied then you'd figure out of 39 Ren Games users (almost all of which are GW players) 20 would be disatisfied. I'm surprised one of them hasn't started a post.

However that could be due to a lack of critical mass of posts - so how many GW sucks threads are there on druchii.net which is similar in size to Warseer?

Im' not trying to dispute the fact Warseer has a huge number of eager fans - take a look at the counts on how many folks are reading different sections some time it gives you an idea what percentage of our readers are interested in specific sub sections.

What I'm suggesting is the fact that our complaint threads are more than other forums may suggest our viewpoints aren't generalizable to all GW gamers. As noted in the example of the forum petition to resculpt the knights of dol amroth - forums sometimes do a very bad job of representing the views of the average gamer. Thats okay as long as we understand what our polls represent - in polling speak "is this a representative sample of the general population" and if not what population does it represent.

cpl_hicks
05-07-2006, 23:17
To use the most extreme example if 50% of GW gamers are disatisfied then you'd figure out of 39 Ren Games users (almost all of which are GW players) 20 would be disatisfied. I'm surprised one of them hasn't started a post.

However that could be due to a lack of critical mass of posts - so how many GW sucks threads are there on druchii.net which is similar in size to Warseer?


well with this poll the 39 members at ren-games could fall into the satisifed category, 94 people have voted that they are satisifed with games workshop who use warseer, now if warseer was made up of only a hundred members it could have 94 that say they are satisfied with gw, while the other 6 might not.

the fact that we have got a near 50/50 split should show that this forum is representative, if it wasn't representative surely the numbers would be higher on one side and lower on another i.e. 25/75

the main reason i did this poll was NOT to see who was satisfied or dissatisifed with gw but to prove to the gw 'haters' that the gw 'lovers' are not a minority
and also to prove to the gw 'lovers' that the gw 'haters' are not a minority, which i think this poll establishes

gjnoronh
05-07-2006, 23:28
Got your intent and clearly it has succeeded in that

Non representative doesn't mean innacurate - I'm not suggesting anythings wrong with the poll data. My curiousity is the generalizability - if this poll can be taken to represent gamers in general. a 50/50 split on the poll is only representative if the total population of GW gamers has a 50/50 split.

My contention is that actual all customers satisfaction may not be adequately captured by the subset of us actually on this forum. For example folks who are really disatisfied with GW are likley no longer to be surfing on a forum dedicated to GW - so they are going to be lost to this sampling technique. Conversely the fact warseer has more complaint threads than most forums suggests our forumgoers are less satisfied than most GW gamers on other forums (whether warseer or druchii or ren games are better representations of the general GW gamer is another issue entirely.)

Gary

ThousandPlateaus
05-07-2006, 23:30
I have no reason to be dissatisfied with GW, and to be honest, I find the question a bit perplexing: GW isn't a public service and ergo I'm not sure if I have the right to be dissatisfied, perhaps it's the wrong term - if someone genuinely is, then I suggest they take up a new hobby, which I'm sure many people are doing if sales figures follow the same pattern as last year (although LOTR and general retail nosediving have much to blame for this pattern).

Having said this, I'm no GW apologist. I bought a subscription to WD at the beginning of the year and I'm massively dissatisfied for what I've paid for as it's not remotely worth the money, even with the 'free' Chapel of Sanctuary. However, I've already gone on and on about WD and how GW really need to wise up to just how vital a tool it is and won't repeat myself now.

As for whether I still feel that GW products are worth their price tags, then I'm completely split. I happily bought the Imperial City on release for £100, and I love it, I happily paid £30 for my Exorcists as they're glorious (no pun intended) however - if something's not worth the money then I don't pay it: I simply ebay or buy from an independent online retailer. I wouldn't pay the GW price for an Immolator, for example, or a squad of Seraphim as the high price tags smack of exploitation.

A suggestion I do have, though, is to lower the price of components and postage from GW's online store - a £4 flat rate is scandalous for a franked business post, as are some of the inflated prices of component parts (again, said Exorcist would cost £51.50(!) before I had bought the Rhino body......

Sculpting. Well, again, some miniatures are outstanding (the Eldar Rangers, Vostroyans, CoD buildings alone over just the past few months are utterly brilliant) and some are crap - Chaos possessed (I mean, come on, I thought they'd sacked Gary Morley after the utterly rancid Dark Eldar releases...). Yet, to be honest, the good far outweighs the bad, and the quality continues to p*ss all over the competition from a great height - there is good reason why GW continue to have a monopoly on tabletop gaming as much as I'm sure many readers here will hate that very idea.

GW do an awful lot of extra-business things for their customers - I used to manage an arts supply store and never in a million years could I imagine the directors allowing customers to come in, use the products (for free), make stuff, play games, hang around for hours, make a general nuisance of themselves to the detriment of sales, and bitch and whine about the very shop they were in. Can you imagine any other retail environment that they would happen in?! Sometimes GW stores are no more than glorified creches for LittleJohnnyMiddleClassDullard whilst his parents slope off around the rest of the shopping centre (GW Brent Cross being case in point) - they should genuinely charge daycare rates at the weekends, I don't know quite how the guys cope.

Anyway - I'm rambling, and I've got work to get on with. GW are obviously going through quite a hard time at the moment, as - if you know even a little of the current retail climate in the UK - are all businesses; you can see them stuttering a bit as they try and figure out exactly what to do to try and circumvent the problems they face. In my opinion, some of the things they are doing are wrong, but then I don't run their business, and we have to leave them to get on with it. They do need to take a good long hard look at what it is that actually makes them money (the hard work and creativity that has gone in to one of the most textually rich and fantastical worlds in SciFi/Fantasy gaming, the commitment to excellence in all their products, the additional extras they offer customers, etc) - rather than what doesn't (catalogues of miniatures, lazy production values, price-hikes above inflation, etc).

The cracks are showing somewhat, but I don't believe it's the collapse of GW as a company or as a series of innovative and excellent gaming systems; occassionally, I think too much of the good things that the company offer are forgotten, or simply misplaced, and criticism arrives from those who take affront at the idea that GW then tries to obtain money from it's client base (duh!).

So no, I'm not dissatisfied - perhaps concerned, but not dissatisfied.

/ramble.

ThousandPlateaus
05-07-2006, 23:36
Apologies for the epic post!

Dr Death
06-07-2006, 08:41
Well you cite Drucii.net as your one reasonable example but as i pointed out in my last post that isnt representative either. Druchii.net has a clear Dark Elf bias (it's in the name) while there are forumers of other race tendancies there it is a focused dark-elf-centric forum. How can you talk about warseer's level of representativenss when your one member-comparable forum was conceived only for players of a single fantasy army?

And if we have no right to be dissatisfied with a commercial company then why should they bother with customer service? Im sure i've asked this before on this very thread but how many of you have actually contacted GW customer service over anything more than missing bitz and misplaced orders? I dont give a stuff whether i dont technically "have" to buy models for the hobby i enjoy, i want to and i expect them to be reasonably priced, well detailed and in proportion. How people can take this "shut up or smeg off" approach just shows quite the ruthlessness of this new breed of economic fascism that is emerging. One party rule in the form of market dominance. Whatever happened to slashing prices? Every other company seems to do it, things like sofa's (surely they're a luxury, just like miniatures?- you dont need something rediculously comfy to sit on- the floor's just as good) GW just want to push the box that little bit more.

As i said before- im flaming dissatisfied with GW but my loyalty is to the product which i enjoy and am not stop for any economic bully boy.

Dr Death

Shadowheart
06-07-2006, 09:15
Quite so. Games Workshop has somehow managed to convince a lot of people that we, the customers who complain, are to blame. Another striking GW/GL parallel. Many George Lucas fanboys will call you a disgrace to the fandom for disliking some stuff he's done. It's bizarre. You're made to feel guilty over being dissatisfied. Hell, it's disgusting.

As to the poll, determining the exact percentage of dissatisfied gamers is of course impossible. But I think most of us recognise that there's a large amount of (potential) GW customers/gamers that are unhappy with the company one way or another. I'm not saying most, but more than enough to indicate that something's wrong. 'Course we didn't need the poll to figure that out.

gjnoronh
06-07-2006, 13:29
Let's be clear I'm NOT saying that
A) I'm fully satisfied with GW
B) Everyone else is satisfied with GW (and warseer is completely abberant)
[QUOTE]

Just to reiterate what is my basis for this discussion. And lets be clear I'm also NOT saying you should "accept the monopoly"

[QUOTE=Dr Death ]Druchii.net has a clear Dark Elf bias (it's in the name) while there are forumers of other race tendancies there it is a focused dark-elf-centric forum. How can you talk about warseer's level of representativenss when your one member-comparable forum was conceived only for players of a single fantasy army?

My point is if 50% of 12,000 of us are voting we are disattisfied there is little reason to assume the disatisfaction with GW is restricted only to players of a type of army or format.

Unless we think the 10,000 druchii.net posters are all by dumb luck in the 50% satisfied portion we'd expect that at least some of the members are disatisfied. IF even 10% are disatisfied that would still be 1,000 folks to consider starting a complaint thread. Similarly for the smaller forums I frequent - out of 1,000 or so Herdstone members if 10% are disatisfied you'd expect some complaint threads. On the other hand if 50% of the general GW gamer is disatisfied you'd expect about as many complaint threads out of those forums as well. But complaint threads are far more common here than on most other forums. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong either with complaint threads or with the members of warseer it just raises questions about how well our membership represents the GW gamer.


As noted in the example of the forum petition to resculpt the knights of dol amroth - forums sometimes do a very bad job of representing the views of the average gamer.
Which of course went on to be GW's best selling miniature bliter that year.


And if we have no right to be dissatisfied with a commercial company then why should they bother with customer service?

Discussing generalizability of the results in NO WAY should be taken to suggest you shouldn't complain. I think you should complain - what I did separately from the generalizability discussion suggest is that internet forums are a bad way to make your voice heard. In part because it's difficult to determine how representative the sample is. Are the folks who peruse Pepsi's forums the average coke drinker or unusually loyal patrons of that multinational company. Calling customer service can help but it's joe shmoe peon on the end of the line. I'd suggest letters to the company, and voting with your wallet as the best way to make an impact on any multinational corporation.


Whatever happened to slashing prices? Every other company seems to do it, SNIP GW just want to push the box that little bit more.



Not sure I understand your point here GW is charging us less per miniature than it's major competitors:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39518&page=3

gary

cpl_hicks
06-07-2006, 13:39
My point is if 50% of 12,000 of us

Unless we think the 10,000 druchii.net


the problem is that they are the TOTAL number of members registered at those forums, warseer only has 4,000+ active members, now i cannot see drucii active members, but i dont think they would have 10,000 members posting within a set time, so while drucii has 10,000 registered members it may only have 4,000 active members (just like warseer), so the differance in the number of people visting each board, may not be as different as it first seems

on a side note i know several people on forums that i occasionally visit also post here so while they MAY complain here they may not compalin at another forums as the administrators may take a very strict view, as most complaint topics may devolve into a flaming war

Dr Death
06-07-2006, 14:17
My point is if 50% of 12,000 of us are voting we are disattisfied there is little reason to assume the disatisfaction with GW is restricted only to players of a type of army or format

Space Marine players and Eldar players- who (up untill a month ago) do you think is going to be the most satisfied with GW's recent movements? If you had asked druchii.net whether they were satisfied a few years back before the book had been modded in WD, im going to make a bet they wouldnt have been the happiest little campers with GW. Your logic is flawed, you are trying to pass off a bias group (not in a bad way but in their nature) as reflecting the gaming community as a whole and say that if it's not it shows an imbalance in warseer (which you may notice caters for GW gamers of all descriptions).

If you were to head over to Bolter and Chainsword and ask the same question to another "perfectly reflective" group i would make a fair old bet that there would be a pretty strong bias for GW because of late marines have had it pretty good.

People are bias, they have their own veiws, Warseer counters that by providing a full spread for different types of gamer. Warseer is about as unbias and accurate a reading of the mood of the gaming public as you are going to get on an internet forum. But because of their veiws i am afraid you are (whatever you may intend) trying to discredit them and find something wrong with the statistics when there is nothing more than the acceptable margin of possible error.

Dr Death

Kriegsherr
06-07-2006, 14:53
Okay, since the whole CoD thing happened, my hapiness meter is starting to climb again.

Facts:

Dissatisfying:

- High prices
- To few resources put unto rules development (and almost to much on miniature development :))
- Market analysis driven new Releases (Sm-Mania for example)
- Unexplained dropping of armylists, rules and chapter approved
- White Dwarf still not on the road to become a hobbiests mag again
- Lacking support for armies not due to get a new codex


Satisfying:

- CoD-like codices and Releases for all armies are the way to go. Hopefully GW has noticed how happy people were with this new format of distributing rule changes and doing new releases outside of the "codex-release-window"
- The mini quality is still improving. Even while there are unexplainable ugly minis like the possesed apearing now and then, the vast majority of minis is still high above most of the other good miniature companies. And in quantity GW wins against all of them.
- 4th ed 40k was a step in the right direction after the insane 3rd ed. Maybe after some more editions the rules will actually become good (up until now, while almost no other company produces better miniatures, there are plenty of other games out there with much better (and better balanced) rules)
- While there still is a big chunk of WAAC-Trolls looking for new prey to stomp, I've met some awesome fun and fluff gamers in the last few months, so it seems the mainstreaming and dumbing down in 3rd ed hasn't killed the hard core of 40k gamers.
- The Fluff returns! And this is one of the most important parts for me. While there are small areas in the fluff of 40k I'm not happy with, most of it is just brilliant. Its a fluff that has grown over 20 years, that evolves with every new race added and gives, while beeing quite large, still some room for your own fluff. (And if Fantasy battle would ever give up beeing a boring lotr clone fluffwise and start having a more interesting and innovative fluff, Maybe I would start playing fantasy again. For me, gaming without good fluff is like drinking alcoholfree stuff ;))

So all in all, I'm much more happy with the direction GW and 40k especially is taking than 18 months before. 4th ed was a good step, but the 4th ed Marine-mania was a little bit too much for me.
CoD has made up for everything though.

gjnoronh
06-07-2006, 15:24
@Hicks / Death

I see your points particularly about administrative filters on the topics allowed on many boards. I used the 12,000 mark for warseer to give EXTRA credence to our poll because it's not clear wht the true active mark is on any of the other boards I referenced. Lets be clear I'm not disagreeing with the statistics I've been wondering how well our results reflect all GW gamers. I've given specific reference to an example that general forums (in three separate posts) have been shown not to do a good job of representing GW gamers in general (see knights of Dol Amroth for example) (EDIT line missing in original post)

I find it interesting that you believe members of some race specific boards wuold/wouldn't complain more or less than the average warseer member. I believe this reflects differences in our underlying assumptions. I assumed people disatisfied with GW are disatisfied because of customer support, prices, white dwarf, lack of FAQ's, or game mechanics problems that would hit all players of all armies fairly similarly. (Even if a Dark Elf player has a FAQ he's playing against an ogre player that doesn't causing some tabletop confusion.) Regardless if we are talking about a race specific forum or a general forum those issues should bother everyone.

Apparently Dr Death as I understand it your underlying assumptoin is that our disatisfaction is less global - people are disatisfied because their army book isn't very good. Thus Dark elf players would have more complaints years ago and less after their rewrite. That's quite possible. EDIT - thus there are no / very few complaint threads on druchii net.

I'm not trying to discredit warseer or it's members. I'm discussing how generalizable the results of this poll are. I've suggested some data that indicates our results may not be generalizable. Please note that I've suggested data to suggest we may be both under and over estimating the degree of disatisfaction amongst GW gamers. Obviously you are convinced (and have made some good arguments) our results are generalizable. I'm going to drop this generalizability point of discussion as obviously we're not going to come to agreement.

Dr Death
06-07-2006, 16:09
Its far from my underlying assumption but it would be naive to suppose it doesnt play a part in peoples opinions- What GW are doing with your game/army/vested interest would certainly effect your opinion of them rather than purely whether prices are too high or not or other more business-centric matters. By posting the poll on Warseer as opposed to to one where a specific game or army is the cheif topic of concern you will naturally get a more universal look at how satisfaction and dissatisfaction falls.

Dr Death

Oddleg
06-07-2006, 19:16
Having voted, i was surprised at the overall result!

Some guy (UK)
06-07-2006, 21:54
I have a habbit of not reading threads and saying whatever. Here I go again. I voted dissatisfied. Why? Well for the reasons I'm sure that have been said. Anyway, as for Warseer being a fair respresentation of the market. Well, it probably isn't, if I put it bluntly. However, if all 12000 members voted, this would be a start for getting a more accurate set of results (and some more poll options too). Besides, were else is GW going to get feedback. Sure, theirs snail mail, but that has been done, and no changes. What could GW do- a so called 'poll' in its weakest sense of the word. Postal survey? Instore survey? No way, they would cost lots of money. An online forum, would IMO be the easiest, though not 100 percent fool proof, way to collect a set of views on GW today.

Later, Some Guy

Stingray_tm
07-07-2006, 11:13
Dissatisfied.

1. Development of White Dwarf
2. Generall attitude towards customers. (Disrespectful, arrogant, pure ignorance).
3. Over one year after the new Tyranid Codex full of ambiguities and still no FAQ, even though the web site states there will be one "soon". (see my point 2). All it takes is 2-4 hours of the designers, sitting around a table, writing down, how they play in this disputed situations and how the rules are intended. But i doubt the designers actually play their games anymore. And producing FAQs won't sell any more miniatures, while the new target group (kiddies) won't be long enough in the hobby, to realize these flaws...