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Zmyeevich
19-03-2015, 20:38
40k now also have rules for three new bloodthirster variants
.
Let me be honest, I was never a fan of the old bloodthirster. He is a fast flying CC beast yes, but very narrowminded. In most melee encounters a LoC would do just as well, while having significant support and shooting capabilities.
Now we have two more variants, but are they a worthwhile improvement?
One has some improved shooting with a templates and a short ranged assault weapon, while the other gained a melee weapon with Strength D, that must strike at I1.

The one with improved shooting seems slightly better, but it remains very short ranged, and still appear subpar compared to a LoC
Since my meta do not include the supertanks etc, I can't really find it worthwhile to sacrifice striking at I9 for I1 on a potential thirster. It matters little that you strike with Strength D if you are dead before striking.

What are your thoughts on the new rules for them? How do you plan on using them in your armies and why should I be exited to add one to my army (besides the very improved model of course )?

mashkeyboardgetusername
19-03-2015, 21:07
The Wrath of Khorne's got some interesting extra utility. The heavy flamer might be handy for dealing with pathfinders/scouts/etc. as you swoop by, and between vector strike and its other weapon it can put a few mid-strength hits on a flier or vehicle (MCs having 360 sight mean you can shoot what you just VS-d).

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you use a unit with that high a points value just for a heavy flamer and to hit fliers, I'd still mainly use it as a melee powerhouse but it's useful to have those options there. If I got one I'd probably pay the extra points to get that utility.

Azazel
19-03-2015, 21:32
The Great Axe of Khorne (D weapon) isn't actually two handed. So you could have the Blade of Blood for a max of twelve attacks. If you need to kill... I dunno, an emperor class titan or something.

Zmyeevich
19-03-2015, 22:01
that doesn't really make a difference, since the blade of blood is a specialist weapon (and the Great Axe of khorne is not). As far as I know there is nothing to prevent you from having a two-handed weapon and another melee weapon, you just never get the bonus A from 2 CCW (and you dont get the extra A if only one and not the other melee weapon is a specialist weapon). You do still get rampage though

Azazel
19-03-2015, 22:06
Of course, well remembered.

Although it is pretty negligible when concerning Strength D. If you really need that extra attack to kill your target something is wrong!

That said I would still take two Greater Rewards every time. The survivability of the Bloodthirster is its biggest weakness.

Zmyeevich
19-03-2015, 22:14
I forgot MCs ignore unwieldy, so the Blade of blood actually do have some very useful utility (being able to choose between I9 and I1 when needed). S7 ap2 is quite good against most things, and you still get your up-to-11 A.
And Chaos MC almost come with 2 greater rewards standard, at least in my list. They all benefit greatly from them, even though they get rather expensive, they are (among) the best in the game

EDIT: the wording of the Colossal rule is "A model with this weapon Piles in and fights at Initiative step 1". It does not say "when attacking using this weapon". So even if the attacks are made with a Blade of Blood you would still strike at I1, since you have a weapon with the colossal rule, and simply having it on you makes you strike at I1

Scammel
19-03-2015, 22:55
How is WS10, T6, W6, 3+/5++ and some additional goodies on top is 'dead before striking'? For me, 25pts to much more comfortably engage vehicles, other MCs and units with ridiculous saves is well worth the cost. You can always Grimoire if you're that worried.

Azazel
19-03-2015, 23:10
Anything with Instant Death. Talos, Swarmlord, Great Unclean One or Daemon Prince with the Balesword. A unit of Death Company (charging), a lucky Imperial Knight, any Grey Knight, any Psyker with a force staff is a potential threat. But thats not the problem, getting into combat in the first place is. Unless you like running Be'lakor every game for Invisibility.

Besides he only has 5 Wounds.

Although I do agree that 25 points is a steal for the option to use strength D on a Bloodthirster.

Arijharn
19-03-2015, 23:32
How is WS10, T6, W6, 3+/5++ and some additional goodies on top is 'dead before striking'? For me, 25pts to much more comfortably engage vehicles, other MCs and units with ridiculous saves is well worth the cost. You can always Grimoire if you're that worried.

Considering the amount of S6 shooting and above, T6 isn't that great. Also considering what it is, lots of people use their AT against Greater Daemons, further reducing the effectiveness of T6 as being a 'worthwhile' stat. Also, GD's aren't actually W6 unless they're the Great Unclean One or unless they have Corpulescence. It is nice, but yeah they go fairly quickly unless you're grimoire-ing it all the time.

Spell_of_Destruction
20-03-2015, 04:35
Considering the amount of S6 shooting and above, T6 isn't that great. Also considering what it is, lots of people use their AT against Greater Daemons, further reducing the effectiveness of T6 as being a 'worthwhile' stat. Also, GD's aren't actually W6 unless they're the Great Unclean One or unless they have Corpulescence. It is nice, but yeah they go fairly quickly unless you're grimoire-ing it all the time.

Sure, if your opponent focuses on the GD he might be able to take it down fairly quickly. He'll still need 45 S6 shots at BS4 to take one down. That's a lot of concentrated fire that could be focusing on other targets.

Losing Command
20-03-2015, 07:18
How is WS10, T6, W6, 3+/5++ and some additional goodies on top is 'dead before striking'? For me, 25pts to much more comfortably engage vehicles, other MCs and units with ridiculous saves is well worth the cost. You can always Grimoire if you're that worried.

It's mostly that for the point investment, striking at I1 with just a 3+ armoursave to back it up is not ideal. A squad of 10 tactical marines pose a very real threat in CC using krak grenades - and that unit is not even half the points :D Let's just say that the odds of surviving untill it can strike are not favourable enough in a lot of cases. And does a Bloodthirster really need Str D to kill pretty much anything he comes into contact with ?

Rolsheen
20-03-2015, 07:31
I've had my Bloodthirster die in one turn from a squad of grav armed Centurions multiple times, always take two 'thirsters just in case.

Scammel
20-03-2015, 08:41
It's mostly that for the point investment, striking at I1 with just a 3+ armoursave to back it up is not ideal. A squad of 10 tactical marines pose a very real threat in CC using krak grenades - and that unit is not even half the points :D

They pose little to no threat at all - the odds of them dealing a single wound are about 50/50.

Latro_
20-03-2015, 09:25
They pose little to no threat at all - the odds of them dealing a single wound are about 50/50.

Yea 10 attacks, hitting on 5's wounding on 4's 3+ save... aint to worried.

Anything else a bit more choppy though... ye gotta use him careful.

Lou_Cypher
20-03-2015, 09:37
I run 2-3 squads of 18 Flesh Hounds in my usual list and they serve me quite well. Know what they really dislike? Walkers and Knights. Everything else is doable for them. With two D-thirsters, I can pretty much choose what's going to be engaging them with my trusty dogs. And they're deadly to nearly every other shooting army out there as well. But this time, no more tieing up with walkers they can't damage.

CrownAxe
20-03-2015, 09:55
It's mostly that for the point investment, striking at I1 with just a 3+ armoursave to back it up is not ideal. A squad of 10 tactical marines pose a very real threat in CC using krak grenades - and that unit is not even half the points :D Let's just say that the odds of surviving untill it can strike are not favourable enough in a lot of cases. And does a Bloodthirster really need Str D to kill pretty much anything he comes into contact with ?
Yes he does need StrD. A couple of S6-7 ap2 hits doesn't even kill a space marine squad let alone the myriad of crazy units in the game. The bloodthrister is awful in 7ed because he can't get to combat alive without a ton of support from the rest of the army and even if he did the BT didn't do damage worth the 300 pts you spent on him. Now with StrD its worth the time and points to support him so that he get's to combat and wrecks everything.

madden
20-03-2015, 12:14
I like the sd thirster give him a greater gift and take the rampage axe he then has the option to strike basic units at i9 and ap2 but! Also has the option to kill walkers/tanks/knights and heavy mc's who generally dont have that many attacks l. It makes him a good alrounder rather than just a infantry killer, plus its a relitively cheap option.

of course the prob is getting him there but you got jink, another greater gift, speed (t2 assaults), and move through cover. I feel the hardest part with the thirster is target priority and thats where tye play can turn him from a glass cannon into an op cheese stick☺.

Zmyeevich
20-03-2015, 12:24
I like the sd thirster give him a greater gift and take the rampage axe he then has the option to strike basic units at i9 and ap2.

The rules from Colossal makes any attack he makes I1, not just the one with the D-weapon, so no striking at I9

gwarsh41
20-03-2015, 14:44
Well, the D thirster is now crud too. Bummer.

Denny
20-03-2015, 16:00
Well, the D thirster is now crud too. Bummer.

Agreed. Its a nice idea, but against most 'normal' targets the other Bloodthirsters cause just as much damage, accept they get to strike first and therfore suffer less damage in return.
The strength D weapon would only really be useful against really massive targets like Titans . . . most of whom could probably kill the 'Thirster before it could strike . . .

Inquisitor Kallus
20-03-2015, 18:17
Anything else a bit more choppy though... ye gotta use him careful.

KHORNE DOES NOT APPROVE THIS COMMENT!

:p

Ahem.. . Itll be interesting to see how they fare in a Daemonkin list. Id love to just be able to run a load of stuff forwards and smash into the enemy after taking some casualties, hopefully the tithe tokes or whatever theyre called can help mitigate loss of models in your army. I have thrown a bloodthirster around with reckless abandon before and he did survive and did pretty well *bye bye Logan*. I think that day Khorne was in a good angry mood

Scammel
20-03-2015, 19:01
Agreed. Its a nice idea, but against most 'normal' targets the other Bloodthirsters cause just as much damage, accept they get to strike first and therfore suffer less damage in return.

The typical targets a BT excels against are also the typical targets other units have no issues dealing with. The LoC and DP have near enough the same output and Hounds and Screamers get similar results with slightly different means. S: D is, oddly enough, more of a niche tool in my eyes - it allows the BT to comprehensively slaughter some very durable targets that might otherwise need a lot of whacking such as Chapter Masters, Land Raiders, Riptides, Wraithknights and particular superheavies. It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of high-S CC attacks out there are typically at WS4 or lower.

Tuborg
20-03-2015, 19:51
I see the inclusion of Str D is to combat the other LoW's in the game.

It isnt meant to go against a ThunderStar, its for the knight/Tides killing your troops

Scammel
20-03-2015, 20:19
I see the inclusion of Str D is to combat the other LoW's in the game.

It isnt meant to go against a ThunderStar, its for the knight/Tides killing your troops

I don't know - with Grimoire or a good Greater Reward, I'd say a Thunderstar is a prime target. D3 wounds makes every failed invun bite, and 6s are delicious, delicious gravy.

Tuborg
20-03-2015, 20:47
I don't know - with Grimoire or a good Greater Reward, I'd say a Thunderstar is a prime target. D3 wounds makes every failed invun bite, and 6s are delicious, delicious gravy.

but with I1 and and every one having rending and if they pass counter assault, getting 4-5 attacks.. the BT will die before it does any harm.

Scammel
20-03-2015, 20:57
but with I1 and and every one having rending and if they pass counter assault, getting 4-5 attacks.. the BT will die before it does any harm.

2/3s of which immediately evaporate with a further 2/3s failing to wound. How big is a Thunderstar these days?

Theocracity
20-03-2015, 21:21
The Thirster does seem like a decent way to fight a Knight, at least 1 on 1. You can fly on the way in, where your only danger is being grounded by a lucky stubber shot. You can pick your landing spot that he won't be able to get very far away from, and he can't do enough shooting damage to take you out in one turn. It does put a lot of pressure on your weapon skill and invulnerable save to keep you alive through his Initiative phase, but if you survive the knight gets wrecked. What happens in the resulting explosion is an issue though....

Tuborg
20-03-2015, 21:29
2/3s of which immediately evaporate with a further 2/3s failing to wound. How big is a Thunderstar these days?

i run mine depending on the points.

either a lord, 2 IronWolves and then 3-4 TWC with 2 SS and 2WC. If i add the 4th its to be ablative wounds.

so say 5 TW striking at i5 str5 ap3 rending. I didnt see if the thirster is 2+, but say like his kin he is only the invuln, i'll have 25 attacks, 10 with re-rolls.

I would roughly get the 5 wounds needed to put him down.

Even if I didnt, he is tied up for another turn, or dead thanks to the iron wolves.

Scammel
20-03-2015, 21:59
i run mine depending on the points.

either a lord, 2 IronWolves and then 3-4 TWC with 2 SS and 2WC. If i add the 4th its to be ablative wounds.

so say 5 TW striking at i5 str5 ap3 rending. I didnt see if the thirster is 2+, but say like his kin he is only the invuln, i'll have 25 attacks, 10 with re-rolls.

I would roughly get the 5 wounds needed to put him down.

Even if I didnt, he is tied up for another turn, or dead thanks to the iron wolves.

Ok, so they'll put him down.... at what, double the cost? He loses out, but a Screamerstar would quite happily chump it up all day long.

Tuborg
20-03-2015, 22:02
Ok, so they'll put him down.... at what, double the cost? He loses out, but a Screamerstar would quite happily chump it up all day long.

but thats your point.. you went yum when you chucked it at a star. He will die before he does anything besides put a very mobile unit behind a turn.

You lost your warlord or at the very least, your hard hitter.

The D weapon is for Big Game Hunting, not small fry targets that can be bogged down with fearless plague bearers.

Scammel
20-03-2015, 22:39
but thats your point.. you went yum when you chucked it at a star. He will die before he does anything besides put a very mobile unit behind a turn.

You lost your warlord or at the very least, your hard hitter.

The D weapon is for Big Game Hunting, not small fry targets that can be bogged down with fearless plague bearers.

And what about Riptides, Wraithknights, Land Raiders, Chapter Masters etc? Besides - my maths doesn't have him dying before the Ironwolves strike, the standard attacks do roughly a wound and the remaining guys are down to only 3-maybe-4 hits even landing. He can then retaliate with a princely 8-9 attacks... And how on earth are you bogging down anything with Plaguebearers, out of interest?

Edit: I forget - do WCs grant re-rolls to hit? Even if they do, it's likely that he lives - you get roughly 3 wounds on a Reward-less BT.

Losing Command
21-03-2015, 12:56
Wolf Claws give +1 str alongside the Shred. TC already have Str 5, so with WC they wound the BT on a 4+ with reroll to wound... nasty stuff.

And assuming the BT attacks back with 9 attacks, that's on average 6 hits, 2 failed stormshield saves. That's not even half of most TW units.

Mr_Foulscumm
23-03-2015, 00:52
Wolf Claws give +1 str alongside the Shred. TC already have Str 5, so with WC they wound the BT on a 4+ with reroll to wound... nasty stuff.

And assuming the BT attacks back with 9 attacks, that's on average 6 hits, 2 failed stormshield saves. That's not even half of most TW units.

Doesn't D strength weapons have a 1 in 6 chance of removing the storm shield inv save?

Tuborg
23-03-2015, 04:28
Doesn't D strength weapons have a 1 in 6 chance of removing the storm shield inv save?

only if it gets the chance to strike.