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View Full Version : 3000pt Grand Legion "Leadership Bomb" via Blanket Debuff/Penalties for Panic/Break



Fazhak
19-03-2015, 23:17
So, here's the first attempt at a Grand Legion of the Everchosen list. The combined Chaos and Skaven forces allow for a greater amount of Leadership tampering than any other list of which I am currently aware. As such, I wanted to give that tactic a try and see how it would do against a variety of comers.

Fortunately, and somewhat strangely, it seems to do well.

Between the Bestigor Herd's "Manbane Standard" and the Stormvermin's "Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat", there tends to be a solid -2 to Leadership penalty zone on the board. Combined with "Doom and Despair", this can increase to -5 without too much trouble. Revealing the "Hidden" Assassin in the Stormvermin, and thus his "Portents of Verminous Doom", increases the Leadership penalty an additional -1, while the aforementioned Sacred Banner forces a reroll of the outright rare successful Leadership test.

The Leadership penalties and rerolls are important, as each of the blocks, the single unit Razorgor Herds, and the Daemon Prince general all cause either Terror or Fear. The blanket penalties, prior to magic, increase the likelihood the opposing units will be at WS1 during Close Combat. More importantly, the targeted Leadership penalties (specifically, Doom and Despair and the Portents of Verminous Doom) are further augmented by the "Treason of Tzeentch" cast by the Pink Horrors of Tzeentch. The targeted Leadership penalties, in turn, support the Daemon Prince's "Allure of Slaanesh" and the Assassin's "Helm of Discord", both of which reduce the number of attacks targeting my units during Close Combat. All these spells cast fairly easily, requiring relatively few power dice and thus not creating too much of a dependency on high Winds of Magic rolls.

Of course, the Magic Phase is important to this list; it is simply that it can usually succeed and survive on few power dice. Opponents must decide whether to dispel the debuffs (the aforementioned Leadership tampering spells, "Soulblight", "Withering", "Miasma", etc.) or to save their dice in fear of "Pit of Shades", "Purple Sun", "Infernal Gateway", etc. Typically, players choose to allow the debuffs to go through, as 8th edition experiences seem to have taught players to always avoid the threat of the flashier spells.

Of course, by allowing the debuffs to go through, my two blocks and my Daemon Prince are Breaking more units, which at this point suffer from the Leadership penalties and therefore either flee or (in the case of Unbreakable/Unstable units) wither away. For opposing units that my blocks find troublesome, the speed of my army usually allows me to avoid such threats, leaving them to my Hellcannons (whose fire also provokes Panic). As for war machines and shooting threats, my Harpies and, if necessary, Ungor Raiders can usually remove those targets within the first or second turn.

This list is only a first attempt and, perhaps, the overarching concept is not sustainable at higher levels of competitive play. I hope to find out soon. Nonetheless, please let me know what you think, please feel free to give it a try, and I look forward to your comments soon!


3000pt

Lords: 785pt
Great Bray-Shaman
* Mark of Nurgle
* Level 4 Wizard w/ Lore of Death
* Magic Weapon: Shrieking Blade
* Talisman: Talisman of Preservation
* Arcane Item: Jagged Dagger
* Enchanted Item: Crown of Command

Warriors of Chaos Daemon Prince
* Daemon of Slaanesh
* Level 4 Wizard w/ Lore of Shadow
* Chaos Mutations & Powers: Scaled Skin
* Chaos Mutations & Powers: Allure of Slaanesh
* Magic Armor: Charmed Shield
* Upgrade: Chaos Armor

Heroes: 310pt
Assassin
* Magic Armor: Helm of Discord
* Enchanted Item: Portents of Verminous Doom

Chieftain
* Battle Standard Bearer
* Magic Standard: Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat

Core: 750pt
x5 Ungor Raiders
* Mark of Slaanesh

x5 Ungor Raiders
* Mark of Slaanesh

x5 Ungor Raiders
* Mark of Slaanesh

x20 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
* Level 1 Wizard w/ Lore of Tzeentch
* Full Command

x40 Stormvermin
* Full Command
* Magic Standard: Wailing Banner

Special: 735pt
x30 Bestigor Herd
* Mark of Nurgle
* Full Command
* Magic Standard: Manbane Standard

x1 Razorgor Herd

x1 Razorgor Herd

x5 Harpies
* Upgrade: Scouts

x5 Harpies
* Upgrade: Scouts

Rare: 420pt
Hellcannon

Hellcannon


I look forward to talking about the concept and future experiences with the list soon! :)

Fazhak
20-03-2015, 17:52
So, any feedback or thoughts on the list? Looking forward to the discussion. :)

tanniith
20-03-2015, 18:10
At least in my meta there are far too many armies that have army wide (or just about) fear, unbreakable, or ITP. If your leadership shenanigans don't work your list doesn't really have enough bite to handle a list that doesn't care about your tricks, such as UL, VC, or TK. Even Ogres, dwarves, orcs and goblins, and lizardmen to a lesser extent won't be bothered too much by it.

Fazhak
22-03-2015, 02:22
First and foremost, thank you for the feedback! I appreciate the conversation.

While I agree that Undead and Daemons will be difficult, the leadership manipulation via fear is only one part of the toolbox. The units are swift and typically have higher movement than the opposition, allowing me to focus my forces on a particular threat, while my chaff buys me a bit of time and the ranged attacks harass the other risks. The magic phase hopefully provides enough targeted debuffs against the particular threat that my combined attack wins combat resolution and threatens either a Break or an Instability/Unstable test. The leadership manipulation then makes a negative outcome for my opposition more likely, allowing me to refocus on the next threat.

Of course, I'd prefer to fight units that are susceptible to fear/terror. However, the leadership manipulation enables a variety of tricks, which, when combined with higher movement and strong debuffs, hopefully permit the list to more consistently take apart the opposition unit by unit.

That's the theory, at least, and it seems to play out well, when executed with patience. It is a "thinking" list, as you are correct: one-to-one match-ups are likely to fail. However, the point is to execute "combined fires", to prevent such a face-off.

Thoughts? Does it make sense and, most importantly, seem fun? :)

Groza
22-03-2015, 12:52
This is the kind of list that I'd love a battle report of.

sigmarus
26-03-2015, 16:50
I would split your unit of 20 horrors into 2 units of 10 to increase your tzeentch spells to 2 in order to try and get treason of tzeentch.

Or you just drop the horrors, switch your daemon prince to Tzeentch (makes him harder to kill also), and instead go with the DoC chariot that gives nearby people a -1 to LD.

tanniith
26-03-2015, 19:40
First and foremost, thank you for the feedback! I appreciate the conversation.

While I agree that Undead and Daemons will be difficult, the leadership manipulation via fear is only one part of the toolbox. The units are swift and typically have higher movement than the opposition, allowing me to focus my forces on a particular threat, while my chaff buys me a bit of time and the ranged attacks harass the other risks. The magic phase hopefully provides enough targeted debuffs against the particular threat that my combined attack wins combat resolution and threatens either a Break or an Instability/Unstable test. The leadership manipulation then makes a negative outcome for my opposition more likely, allowing me to refocus on the next threat.

Of course, I'd prefer to fight units that are susceptible to fear/terror. However, the leadership manipulation enables a variety of tricks, which, when combined with higher movement and strong debuffs, hopefully permit the list to more consistently take apart the opposition unit by unit.

That's the theory, at least, and it seems to play out well, when executed with patience. It is a "thinking" list, as you are correct: one-to-one match-ups are likely to fail. However, the point is to execute "combined fires", to prevent such a face-off.

Thoughts? Does it make sense and, most importantly, seem fun? :)

It would definitely be a fun list, assuming the you face the right army.

I play Vampire Counts and we can do similar leadership tricks (fear check on 3d6, drop the lowest, static -1 leadership bubble from our vampires, add in doom and darkness and reroll successful tests) and let me tell you, its a huge bummer when you realize you've wasted all of those points because your opponents entire army is ITP. If that happens your combat blocks are going to be largely useless, since Stormvermin and Bestigors aren't exactly the most frightening combat blocks out there. You'll be relying entirely on your Hellcannons and utilizing your chaff effectively enough to be sure your combat blocks can only fight favorable battles, usually meaning they'll have to team up on your opponents combat blocks -- not an easy thing to do.

Undead Legions will be an incredibly tough opponent for you. You will get utterly dominated in the magic phase and we can bring enough monsters that your Helcannons will simply have too many targets. Something is going to get through to your blocks and murder them whether it be one of the warpshinxes, one of the terrorgheists, our Crypt Horrors, the Grave Guard unit with the Vampire Lord, Varghulfs, Colossi, Morghasts, etc. Only your Bestigors can sort of fight any of the above, and even then they're probably losing.

In fluffy battles it will probably work out just fine, though.

HereComesTomorrow
05-04-2015, 17:19
I agree that the Pink Horrors should be split into 2x10.

Hoping to get Treason on one dice is a bit optimistic. And the other unit might get Infernal Gateway, which your opponent will want to hold dice back to try and dispel.