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Panzer MkIV
24-03-2015, 17:38
If a model has Always Strikes First and Always Strikes Last they cancel out and neither applies so it strikes on Initiative.

What happens if the model gets another instance of Always Strikes Last?

e.g. Lore of Slaanesh: Acquiescence (hex spell that gives ASL)

Malagor
24-03-2015, 17:41
It doesn't stack.
Think they even FAQed that.

Panzer MkIV
24-03-2015, 17:51
It has been FAQed. I must be getting blind :)

SteveW
27-03-2015, 16:06
Where is it in the FAQ?

Malagor
27-03-2015, 18:08
Page 2 for page 66 that unless stated, a model doesn't benefit from the same special rule multiple times.
ASL does not say that you can apply it multiple times hence you can only benefit from it once.
Same if you have ASF and ASL and get another ASF on the unit, only benefit from ASF once so you are still stricking at your own initiative.

SteveW
27-03-2015, 18:28
Page 2 for page 66 that unless stated, a model doesn't benefit from the same special rule multiple times.
ASL does not say that you can apply it multiple times hence you can only benefit from it once.
Same if you have ASF and ASL and get another ASF on the unit, only benefit from ASF once so you are still stricking at your own initiative.
Ah, that old argument. I thought an actual reason was given that I couldn't find, not the same bogus argument that's been around.

Lord Dan
27-03-2015, 20:24
Who's ready for round 28?!

Don Zeko
02-04-2015, 02:25
Who's ready for round 28?!

If i can find the last thread to copy and paste my argument, I am, I am!

furrie
02-04-2015, 07:55
Ah, that old argument. I thought an actual reason was given that I couldn't find, not the same bogus argument that's been around.

ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, but they don't remove eachother. This means a model still has the rules, they don't do anything any more for the model, but they are still there and as such preventing it from gaining it again

SteveW
02-04-2015, 08:12
ASF and ASL cancel eachother out, but they don't remove eachother. This means a model still has the rules, they don't do anything any more for the model, but they are still there and as such preventing it from gaining it again


Not getting sucked into this again. Look for the last thread on it and pretend I posted those posts here.

SanDiegoSurrealist
02-04-2015, 17:18
Similar question, came up in a game the other day.

Challenge between my KoS and his Vamp Lord

Vampire Lord has ASF and item that give anything in base ASL
Keeper has ASF Sword

Played it that Vamp still gets his ASF (re-rolls and all) because the ASL canceled out ASF on KoS.

But that seemed wrong.

ASL does not make Initiative stat change, so KoS still keeps his I10, so even if ASL hit by ASF should never get re-rolls on him.

Or am I missing something?

theunwantedbeing
02-04-2015, 17:55
Or am I missing something?

ASF only provides re-rolls when your initiative is equal to or higher than your opponents.
So you played it correctly except for letting the Vampire lord have re-rolls to hit.

Blkc57
03-04-2015, 05:32
Who's ready for round 28?!

Don't you dare, Lord Dan.

Lord Dan
03-04-2015, 16:54
ASF and ASL cancel eachother out...
Don't engage, don't engage, don't engage...


Don't you dare, Lord Dan.
Must...resist...


...but they don't remove eachother.
GAH!

But if they don't remove each other, wouldn't a model like Executioners cancel ASF on a HE Spearman due to the ASF/ASF rule interaction??

...

I'll get my coat.

Blkc57
04-04-2015, 22:55
https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU

Why Dan, why did you do it.
Because the ASF/ASF interaction would be an effect that should be limited by the other models ASL. I know I know, we start down the road all over again

Lord Dan
04-04-2015, 23:35
Some men just want to watch the world burn, Blkc57.

Rudra34
05-04-2015, 05:57
ASL?


2019, M, Nazareth.

Francis
05-04-2015, 22:20
Its pretty clear in my mind, cancel is synonymous with erase which is synonymous with remove (or close to anyway) so the only way to play it is that the rule is gone from the model completely. In practice this means that a unit of execs will allow a unit of phoenix guards to strike first and to reroll the hits against them. It also means that GW wielding elf units might gain ASF through buffs since they don't have ASF already (it is cancelled before the game even started, i.e. never came into effect (as is ASL)) and may be debuffed by ASL in the same way. So a unit of swordmasters fighting a vampire lord with the nightshroud will gain ASL.

I know most won't agree with me, but I think that has more to do with them hating the fact that White Lions can benefit from Birona's Time Warp more than anything else (which I kinda get), and yes It follows that other GW troops hit by two timewarps do get ASF as the first casting will remove ASL and the second will grant a new ASF.

In other words "bring me my greatsword" (and light council).

SteveW
07-04-2015, 04:26
The problem with all that Francis is it makes too much sense for most people here.

3eland
07-04-2015, 05:24
Some men just want to watch the world burn, Blkc57.

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

thesoundofmusica
07-04-2015, 07:21
The problem with all that Francis is it makes too much sense for most people here.

Yes for many Awkwardhammer or Strainedhammer is much more enjoyable, dont ask me why.

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2015, 11:32
Its pretty clear in my mind, cancel is synonymous with erase which is synonymous with remove (or close to anyway) so the only way to play it is that the rule is gone from the model completely.

Indeed, that's why when a model with a magical weapon that re-rolls to hit faces off against an opponent with an ability that causes hits to be re-rolled both abilities cancel and cannot be used again for the rest of the game.

Francis
07-04-2015, 13:44
Don't act unnecessarily obtuse TUB, you know perfectly well what I am saying, but in case you don't; the rule is only removed from the model as long as the two rules cancel each other out. So if the Swordmaster were to lose his GW, he would regain the ASF. And where in the rulebook does it say that reroll misses and reroll hits cancel each other? I thought the rules was that any hits were rerolled once and any misses were rerolled once, and then the second result stands (which makes for awkward gameplay but works).

Lord Dan
07-04-2015, 15:02
Goooooood...

I can feel your anger...

furrie
07-04-2015, 15:13
my work here is done :)

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2015, 15:18
Don't act unnecessarily obtuse TUB, you know perfectly well what I am saying, but in case you don't; the rule is only removed from the model as long as the two rules cancel each other out. So if the Swordmaster were to lose his GW, he would regain the ASF.
But if the model has lost the rule (and it's gone completely)....how does it get it back?

The ASL isn't there either, so losing the great weapon wouldn't do anything (apart from make him strength 3).


And where in the rulebook does it say that reroll misses and reroll hits cancel each other?
In the FAQ (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf)

Blkc57
08-04-2015, 01:47
Look upon your handiwork Lord Dan. Already it begins again. THE FIRE RISES!

Francis
08-04-2015, 10:03
Right, I won't keep this discussion going any longer than this post. I was not aware of that faq to reroll vs reroll, but if anything I think it might actually help my point. The final bit reads: "as long as both special rules are in effect". That is, they cancel each other out for just as long as they are interacting with each other upon the same model. The rules are not removed from the models in themselves (that is, no one has used an eraser on your armybook), but as long as they interact with each other they are too all intents and purposes gone (and may be replied to the model by some other effect), the moment the special rules don't interact with each other they come back into effect.

That said, people are of course free to play it as they want to, this is my interpretation and in my eyes the only one that makes sense from both a RAW and RAI PoW.

FatTrucker
12-04-2015, 12:05
The interaction between ASF and ASL is perpetual and absolute.

Where both rules exist on a model they remain in effect at all times collectively cancelling out any benefits, abilities or penalties that either rule imposes on its own. This is actually part of the rules for both ASF and ASL.
So by virtue of having ASF and ASL you just ignore any and all effects either rule would normally impart.
You cannot stack extra ASF or ASL because your model already has both, and the rule for both is they hold one anothers effects at bay like an unstoppable force and an immovable object.
Adding more unstoppable force, or more immovable object doesn't have any effect because they are already absolute.