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View Full Version : a little help building a list after an extended hiatus from fantasy (vc/tk/ul)



Uniforce
01-04-2015, 08:58
Alright, i'll preface this by saying i haven't played fantasy for a long time, and even then i only had a handful of games (back when a new edition of fantasy was released - the notable thing was that an enemy that lost a combat with fear involved automatically broke and ran)
i started a VC army back then, blood-dragon themed, where grave guard were core...
i've since lost some of the models, but i recently found most of the army in the shed collecting dust, so i thought i'd dabble with a bit of theory list building to get a handle of the new rules and such.

The new "Undead Legion" seems to be something i would try out (since i did get two boxes of skeley chariots wayyy back when)

Without further adu:
+++ Undead legion (1998pts) +++

++ Undead Legions (2014) (Standard) ++

+ (No Category) +

- Army Size [Army (0-2999 points)]

+ Lords +

Liche High Priest [Hierophant, Lore of Nehekhara, Wizard Level 3]
····Magic Items [AB - Enkhil's Kanopi, AB - Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, BRB - Talisman of Protection]

Vampire Lord [Aura of Dark Majesty, Beguile, Dread Knight, Fear Incarnate, Heavy Armour, Lance, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Wizard Level 1]
····Abyssal Terror [Sword-claws]
····Magic Items [AB - Book of Arkhan, BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Ruby Ring of Ruin, BRB - Talisman of Preservation]

+ Heroes +

Necrotect
····Magic Items

[b]Tomb Prince [Great Weapon]

Vampire [Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lore of the Vampires, Wizard Level 1]
····Magic Items [AB - Nightshroud]

+ Core +

Skeleton Chariots [Champion, 6x Skeleton Chariots]
····Standard Bearer

[b]Skeleton Warriors [Champion, Musician, 18x Skeleton Warrior]
····Standard Bearer [AB - The Screaming Banner]

+ Special +

Grave Guard [Champion, Musician]
····13x Grave Guard [13x Great Weapon]
····Standard Bearer [AB - Banner of the Barrows]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

So, since the original list had grave guard as core, its left me a little shy on avaliable core units (i did have black knights, spirit host, wolves and bats somewhere, but they seem to have been lost in time) i do have 25 "grave guard" avaliable (they're actually elven pheonix whatsamacallits with their zpecial character, the silent ones with the halberds - originally going to be an elven army turned vampires by a blood dragon)

The lord on the terror i want in there, i used the old metal abyssal terror wings on my tyranid hive tyrant, and have since gave him a saddle, so can be either 40k or fantasy, and i think he looks cool riding a hive tyrant into battle ;)

i do have 10 ghouls, a mounted and foot wight king BSB and a corpse cart laying around somewhere, but i didn't think they really fit the list at that points, and my lack of core restricts me from raising it any more.

Thoughts are:
The skeleton unit is joined by the lich priest, vampire and necrotech. The two chararacters and the command shove the priest into the second row, protecting him somewhat (being the heirophant and all)
with all the buffs in the squad focusing on survival, screaming banner, vampires aura and fear incarnate, priests golden mask.
so, no BSB or general bonuses, rolling an extra dice - discarding lowest, -1Ld, and finally re-rolling successful tests, not to mention terror, so it also does the same job to a fear unit (just not one thats psych immune) so, its got a decent chance of causing fear on anything not immune to psych, making it that much harder to hit.

This forms the anvil of the army, with the priest and vampire focused on keeping it at full strength.

The tomb king joins the grave guard (i would like to get more of these guys in there, i just can't find the points to do it) making it the anti-elites, with decent strength, toughness, and killing blows hitting most things on 2's

the chariots are more there to bulk up the points in core than anything else, their banner of swiftness and swiftstrider can come at a surprisingly long charge range though, would two units of three be better? Even if they miss out on the banner?

And finally, the lord goes warmaching hunting, or if thats not an option, hits something from behind thanks to his fly.
again, working on Ld debuffs to help him survive a challenge, while letting his stats take care of the damage side of things.

Plenty of surprise bound spells too, fireball and van hels from the lord, while the priest's jar sucks up any remains in play spells.

Now, the necrotech is there as another character to push the priest to the second rank, is that still legal? Or does it have any real benefit nowdays? Should he be with the grave guard instead?
maybe i should drop him and try to get the necromancer corpse cart in there somewhere? For some more magic... i'm not sure, will the three mages already be enough?

Any other suggestions?

Folomo
01-04-2015, 11:36
Remember that in a UL, there is no hierophant.

Also, if you are putting the liche priest on the second row, there is no need for a 6++.

In general, the Kanopi is not a good option compared to a dispel scroll unless your meta is filled with armies that use RIP spells or yourself bring 2-3 of them.

Also, a lvl 4 >> lvl 3.

The necrotect is somewhat wasted on the Skeleton warriors. But he will be able to "push" the wizard to the second rank if you have a full command and another character.

The units are faaaar too small. Combat is far more bloody now than in 7th, an enemy unit can easily kill 10+ skeleton warriors per turn. With only 18, you are going to lose the whole unit in 1-2 rounds of combat. Most SW units are 40-50 models.

Also, the unit generates no damage at all. The SW aren't going to do much with their S3 attacks and the vampire has only 4 S5 attacks. You are depending too much on your opponent missing his rolls to win combat.

The tomb prince + GG unit will simply evaporate before hitting back. 13 are too few. As comparison, most GG units are at least 30 models.

You need to increase the units size. Your are spending too many points into characters right now. For example, your skeleton unit cost ~100 points and has almost 300 points in character support.

Also, ITP armies (all undead, most orc lists, DE, demons) will easily beat this list.

I think you are trying too many things (ultra expensive vampire lord, Leadership bomb) on too few points and the lists suffers for it.

theJ
02-04-2015, 08:48
mr Folomo exaggerates... but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. I would say skellies need to be at least 5x6 to work, while Grave Guard would need 5x4 - this is assuming you have plenty of invocations to keep your numbers topped.

Other than that, your main problem is pouring too many of your precious points into upgrades - your main caster should be lvl4, your vampires should have Red Fury and a cool weapon... and that's pretty much it. Magic items can be played around with a little once the rest of the list is in place, or if you've got a cool plan you want to try out, but until then, it's the units who win battles in 8th edition, not ultrabuff characters.

Speaking of units... I know it can feel daunting to assemble and paint that much infantry... that's why the monsters are such a godsend. The sphinxes and the Terrorgheist are all incredible additions, which I can highly recommend giving a go... especially considering you've only got an effective 4 units on the table(counting the Abyssal Terror).

Uniforce
03-04-2015, 02:37
yeah, i take your point about the unit sizes... i only have currently 30 skeletons to play with... i was hoping to have enough magic to simply keep them up, or summon a few more units as speed bumps, or does this no longer work?

as to the grave guard, i want to buff their numbers, but at the moment, they're more of a psychologial unit, a full unit of high strength, hitting on 2's with killing blow (not to mention the prince gives them Ws bonuses, so against most troops they're getting hit on 4's now as opposed to 3's) i would think be enough to make the enemy unsure if they want to engage, since if they fluff their rolls, or fail their fear test, they're in for a world of hurt (characters included)
i wanted to buff them up, but i don't know where i could get the points from...

the skeletons... yes, i am relying on the fear to work and make the enemy miss, but there's also the night shield in there, which can affect three models, and since i'm only running 5 wide that leaves just over half at max, models to attack from the front rank at I.
with the priest and vampire in there i was hoping that i could replace the casulties that i suffer (lore attribute from nekehatra and from lore of undead) not to mention the MR3 in there to protect the characters from sniping spells.

how is the extra magic levels going to help now? from what i read the mages now channel power/dispel dice per model rather than relative to their level of the last time i played, or is there something i'm missing?

The theme i was going for is Ld bomb to be honest, and i know anything immune to psych would be a hard slog...

about the skeleton chariots, two x 3 with no command (to save points and get more units) or one x 6 with full command.
first one gets two lots of impact hits and a better chance of getting all the bows to shoot
second one has more staying power, and might be easier than trying to get two units of chariots into a combat.

if i do that (split the chariots) drop the liche priest and necrotech, pick up a corpse cart necromancer w/dispel scroll (lvl2) i'll lose one magic level, but get another chariot and a buff via balefire or lodestone. job is still the same though, keep those skeletons up!

it'll free up points to buff the skeletons up to 29 (5x6 with vampire) and the grave guard to 24 (5x5 with prince)

so:
Vamp Lord (Quickblood, lance, beguile, fear incarnate, aura dread knight, Enchanted Shield, Tailsman Preservation, Book arkhan)
Abyssal Terror
Sword claws

Corpse Cart Necromancer

3 x Skeleton Chariots

3 x Skeleton Chariots

29x Skeleton Warriors (Sword shield)
Full command
Screaming Banner
Vampire (Aura, Fear incarnate, Great weapon, Nightshroud)

24x Grave Guard (Great weapons)
Full command
Banner of Barrows
Tomb Prince (Great weapon)

would that be better?

theJ
03-04-2015, 12:16
would that be better?

It would.

As to some of your other points;
Raising the dead - this is still a thing. A think I'll be expecting you to do. You'll still need a "buffer" of spare bodies to keep your units at fighting strength, however. Your new setup should handle this just fine :)

Magic levels - Aye, power & dispel dice are more or less "set"... however, each wizard level gives +1 to cast and to EVERY SINGLE DISPEL. For 35pts. That, my friend, is gamechanging. I doubt you'll find any other option in the whole game that's even close to that level of value... well, 'cept for un-undead battle standards, anyway :p

Fear - Two things. First off, the game nowadays includes quite a lot of options for boosting leadership. Between leadership 9-10, which doesn't drop due to steadfast, and is rerollable thanks to the battle standard... failing leadership is a pretty rare occurance for combat blocks. While the vampires get some really cool toys to try out, said tools still won't make fear something you can ever rely on. Secondly, even when the enemy does fail a leadership check... it no longer makes them run away - it merely reduces them to WS1 for the rest of the phase. Useful? Yup. Something you can build your entire strategy around? Nope.

After all that is said and done... I think the best way to learn how the new edition works... is to actually play the new edition. Take that second list(or even the first one if you're feeling brave), go down to your local club/shop/whatever, and play a couple games. The current style of the game should become a lot clearer to you after that.
Good Luck, and please let us know what happens :)