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Smooth Boy
10-04-2015, 00:44
Well I don't know about everyone else but I think the Predator looks rather hideous now and is long overdue a redesign. The ubiquitous Rhino chassis works with most things, but not as a battle tank. It just clearly looks like someone stuck a turret on an APC... which they basically did. Its profile is way too high, has two vision slits and doesn't look like it has front armour 13. I think the Forge World one looks better but I'm more interested in a totally new design, I was thinking of using 1/48th scale model tank as a base but I'm not sure which one?

So what do you all think, do you think a totally new design would fit with the other marine vehicles or do you just want to see slight alterations? What historical tanks look suitably 40Kish to act as a substitute?

Losing Command
10-04-2015, 00:56
I kinda like the Predator how it looks now. But if a re-design means more weapon options I'm all up for it.

MrKeef
10-04-2015, 01:02
I think it's ok as it is now. Maybe give it a different front plate to reflect the extra armour it has, but nothing major.

Just Tony
10-04-2015, 02:28
Stupidly resculpting models that are fine to excellent as they are is one of the reasons we're paying damn near $60 a tank now.

Kakapo42
10-04-2015, 03:32
It just clearly looks like someone stuck a turret on an APC... which they basically did.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what a Predator is supposed to be according to the background - a Rhino with a gun turret, some sponsons and some extra armor bolted on. So if that's the case then I think that model is doing a pretty good job (just like the old XV-88 Broadside models, I always saw people complaining that they were just Crisis Suits with a pair of railguns stuck on... which is exactly what the background said they were).

No, if you ask me the current Predator, just like almost every other GW model from around the early 2000s, is perfectly fine even today. If you ask me, it's the GW Space Marine aircraft that are in need of a redesign - a change in some of the proportions and an armored grate-style canopy and some other design cues to make them look more like the the Forgeworld Thunderhawk would do nicely in my eyes.

ehlijen
10-04-2015, 05:53
So many marine vehicles being based off the rhino chassis is a deliberate writing choice by GW. The chassis was always described as being ubiquitous, rugged and highly versatile. No, it's not a perfect tank chassis, but it's a perfectly adequate one for the needs of a marine chapter.

As for using a real tank as a base: you're going about it the wrong way, unless you're looking for between WWs French designs (ie bad tank designs). 40k is deliberately not echoing the modern era tanks. Just look at the Leman Russ: Hull gun and turret gun? Hasn't been done since every nation managed to put decent size guns into the turret. Sponsons? Nope. High sides and small turret? Same as your predator complaint in a purpose designed 40k battle tank right there. Tracks going all around the vehicle with no suspension? Bring your headache medicine if you plan to drive that! Rivets? Rivets!

40k tanks are deliberately following poor tank design practices, on top of the predator deliberately being an APC with a gun turret.

LegioDestructor
10-04-2015, 14:58
Although I agree with others that it is correct that the Predator looks like a Rhino + Turret, I do think it could do with an update.

This could easily be accomplished by adding a sprue of:

Beefier front and side armour plates like what the Stalker/Hunter tank has, but without the stabilizer legs.
Relic Predator turret weapons included in the kit.

Done.

Spiney Norman
10-04-2015, 15:06
Although I agree with others that it is correct that the Predator looks like a Rhino + Turret, I do think it could do with an update.


Or perhaps a regression, I think the Deimos pattern predator is a much better design than the plastic MkII or whatever it is. I like that the front is chunkier and more armoured than the apc version for a start, actually the Deimos rhino is better than the plastics version, those round doors are awesome.

Smooth Boy
10-04-2015, 15:33
Yeah I could live with it if they took some design cues from the Demios. Needs more front and side armour, a wider turret and better designed sponsons are my main gripes. If you look at the Baal Predator they've done some of this. I still think though that something like the Leopard II 1/48 would make a good base for a new predator, the turret even looks a bit like the current Predator.

ehlijen
10-04-2015, 21:14
I much prefer the current plastic to the deimos (old or new). Sure, they could beef the front armour, that'd just be a single new piece, really (why the side, though? It's still AV11 there).

But why make it look like a battle tank when it isn't? It is a turret on a rhino, no more, no less. The background has always stated so and the model has always confirmed it.

Getifa Ubazza
10-04-2015, 22:07
I had 3 Preds in my old marine army and within a few months 2 of the side sponsons had broken off. I know with some effort, I could have fixed them, but honestly, I just put them in my model cupboard and left them there. If they did the side sponsons like the leman Russ ones, then I would happily buy one, but not as long as the side sponsons are held on with just a little plastic rod.

If I were to buy one right now, I would spend the extra money and get the Deimos Pattern one. That's the way I remember the Pred looking when I started in the hobby. I don't get why they changed it.

Mazryonh
11-04-2015, 01:53
Well I don't know about everyone else but I think the Predator looks rather hideous now and is long overdue a redesign. The ubiquitous Rhino chassis works with most things, but not as a battle tank. It just clearly looks like someone stuck a turret on an APC... which they basically did. Its profile is way too high, has two vision slits and doesn't look like it has front armour 13. I think the Forge World one looks better but I'm more interested in a totally new design, I was thinking of using 1/48th scale model tank as a base but I'm not sure which one?

So what do you all think, do you think a totally new design would fit with the other marine vehicles or do you just want to see slight alterations? What historical tanks look suitably 40Kish to act as a substitute?

I don't think an entirely new tank chassis is that necessary. There are a few variations on the Predator that I can think of that would make the tank much more useful. And if you think the Predator looks too thinly-armoured at the front, you can buy this officially-endorsed reinforced armour (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Vehicle-Accessories/RHINO---PREDATOR-REINFORCED-ARMOUR.html) for Predators and Rhinos from Forge World.

The vision slits are supposed to call to mind WWII tanks, after all.

Smooth Boy
11-04-2015, 03:36
I don't really know, it just looks a bit weird. If you don't have sponsons on its a tank with doors? Some panels like the Vindicator would be nice.

The Black Shield
11-04-2015, 04:35
There are a number of third-party kits that could be Predator analogs.

Konovalev
11-04-2015, 04:50
It just clearly looks like someone stuck a turret on an APC... which they basically did.

I always found that to be appropriate, I like it the way it is. It fits with the Astartes theme of military efficiency(relative). Rather than having numerous designs(and their respective spare parts) with different functions, you've got the rhino chassis with add-on modules to suit a particular purpose.

The rhino appears to draw strong influence from the M113 and M2/3 Bradley, in both aesthetics and the different configurations is can be modded to.

Rogue Star
11-04-2015, 10:24
If you don't have sponsons on its a tank with doors?

Well when was the last time anyone stuck sponsons on a real life tank? We learned how inefficient that was by the end of WW1.

Void_Walker
11-04-2015, 14:44
I think the the pred looks weird too; like the turret is too small (not long enough). Its a pity because the rhino and its other upgrades look great; the rhino reminds me of the C&C Red Alert APCs - happy memories.

Spyros80
14-04-2015, 08:53
The Codex Space Marines usually says that the Predator is their main battle tank.
I believe that the following describes it much better:
Imperial Armour Vol.2 : "It provides heavy fire support to Space Marine squads in battle."
Don't forget that it is the Adeptus Astartes we are talking about, and their greatest weapon is their soldiers. Thus I believe the Predator's role is that (fire support), and not being an MBT (which is what the Leman russ is).
I guess that the Marines not using the Leman Russ is like their fleet situation. The Imperium (and the Imperial Navy) don't want/allow them to own a fully fledged fleet, out of fear of what happened in the past, and something like that is their tank situation.
And granted, the Land Raider is a superior hull compared to the Leman Russ, but in 99.5% of the cases always carries troops, there is not a formal MBT version dedicated to weapons only.

T10
14-04-2015, 11:29
I think the Predator fits fairly well with the Space Marine image, even if its performance on the battlefield can be perceived as somewhat disappointing: Its strong front armour suggests that it should work in an army that can remove threats to its side and rear. This is not always possible in a game where the sides are equally matched, or you have to deal with rapid-strike units like deep strike, flyers or bikes.

Maybe the best use for the Predator is to keep it in reserve and bring it in once the battle-lines have been fully drawn?

-T10

Spiney Norman
14-04-2015, 11:35
I think the the pred looks weird too; like the turret is too small (not long enough). Its a pity because the rhino and its other upgrades look great; the rhino reminds me of the C&C Red Alert APCs - happy memories.

I think the turret is pretty weird on the predator, the way it cuts in towards the tanks hull looks wrong and the fact that it is so far forward also looks peculiar. I also don't like the fact that it has no more armour on the model than the rhino does, and the auto cannon is also too chunky for my taste. Fortunately the Deimos pattern from forgeworld fixes all these problems

Kakapo42
14-04-2015, 12:08
The Codex Space Marines usually says that the Predator is their main battle tank.
I believe that the following describes it much better:
Imperial Armour Vol.2 : "It provides heavy fire support to Space Marine squads in battle."
Don't forget that it is the Adeptus Astartes we are talking about, and their greatest weapon is their soldiers. Thus I believe the Predator's role is that (fire support), and not being an MBT (which is what the Leman russ is).
I guess that the Marines not using the Leman Russ is like their fleet situation. The Imperium (and the Imperial Navy) don't want/allow them to own a fully fledged fleet, out of fear of what happened in the past, and something like that is their tank situation.
And granted, the Land Raider is a superior hull compared to the Leman Russ, but in 99.5% of the cases always carries troops, there is not a formal MBT version dedicated to weapons only.

Not only that, but it also fits in more with the Space Marine's general combat doctrine. Unlike the Imperial Guard, who are supposed to batter their way through the enemy head on, the Space Marines are all about well-placed lightning assaults - drop in, hit hard and cripple the enemy, then move on before significant retaliation can be drawn. So a lighter more manoeuvrable weapons platform (the Preadator) and a main battle vehicle that acts as a transport as much as it does a tank (Land Raider) compliments the preferred methods of the modern Space Marines much better than a slow ungainly battle tank like the Leman Russ would (Space Wolves exceptions aside).

Void_Walker
14-04-2015, 12:42
I think the problem is the rhino hull; its too high - its a transport first mbt second. But that hull works for the rest of the tanks; both the whirlwind and vindi look fit for purpose and dont look out of place; its just the pred which looks like one of the early ww2 tanks.

Kakapo42
14-04-2015, 12:44
I think the problem is the rhino hull; its too high - its a transport first mbt second. But that hull works for the rest of the tanks; both the whirlwind and vindi look fit for purpose and dont look out of place; its just the pred which looks like one of the early ww2 tanks.

All Imperial tanks look like early or pre-WW2 tanks, that's sort of the point behind a lot of them design-wise.

Void_Walker
14-04-2015, 12:50
All Imperial tanks look like early or pre-WW2 tanks, that's sort of the point behind a lot of them design-wise.
Yea i know especially the landraider. But the pred fits the bill better than all but the raider.

chuxfm
14-04-2015, 14:05
The sponsons have broken off my Chaos Pred too. I even resorted to using Green Stuff to stick it in place after the damage wouldn't allow to be glued back togethor anymore. Yet still it breaks. I'd prefer the sponsons to be more like the old ones or a Leman Russ

Chux.

Charistoph
14-04-2015, 18:38
Not only that, but it also fits in more with the Space Marine's general combat doctrine. Unlike the Imperial Guard, who are supposed to batter their way through the enemy head on, the Space Marines are all about well-placed lightning assaults - drop in, hit hard and cripple the enemy, then move on before significant retaliation can be drawn. So a lighter more manoeuvrable weapons platform (the Preadator) and a main battle vehicle that acts as a transport as much as it does a tank (Land Raider) compliments the preferred methods of the modern Space Marines much better than a slow ungainly battle tank like the Leman Russ would (Space Wolves exceptions aside).

Indeed, but if the Predator would actually MOVE like a light battle tank, it would make sense. But it moves like a medium battle tank and has the armour of the light. Not asking for a Leman Russ or a Sicaran here, but something to reduce the WTF about the incongruities would be nice.

Didn't they used to go faster if they didn't have sponsons or something?

ehlijen
14-04-2015, 19:12
What they used to do was move at all and fire their main gun, back in 3rd ed when the russ couldn't do that (on account of ordnance being move or fire even for vehicles).

In 2nd ed, when the game had a M stat, they were actually faster, both in total and before BS penalties kicked in.

Nowadays, predators aren't heavy, which means they can actually move faster than russes, at least.

WLBjork
15-04-2015, 07:15
On consideration, I'd consider the Predator to be more of a Cruiser tank, such as those used by the UK during WW2.

Either way though, the loss of individual movement values has taken a lot of the character away from 40K.

MajorWesJanson
15-04-2015, 07:24
Either way though, the loss of individual movement values has taken a lot of the character away from 40K.

Agreed. At least bring it back for vehicles. You could even remove the need for "Fast" and "Heavy" vehicle categories with movement values. Let all vehicles move combat speed M and fire all weapons, Cruising speed 2M and fire one weapon, and Flat out 3M and snapfire. Normal vehicles would be a base of say 6 for M. Overcharged Engines and Red Paint would make M=7. Eldar and Dark Eldar Skimmers would have M of 8 or 9. Leman Russ tanks and Monoliths would be M=4.

AngryAngel
15-04-2015, 08:25
Stupidly resculpting models that are fine to excellent as they are is one of the reasons we're paying damn near $60 a tank now.

I think it looks fine, but far over shadowed now a days for heavy slots so rarely seen. I will also say the model couldn't get much more expensive, its already beyond expensive for a very old ( at this time ) model. The Leman russ kits are cheaper, and better, it's silly.

totgeboren
15-04-2015, 08:34
All they would need to do is bring some consistency to the fast and normal vehicles. Best would probably be to allow normal vehicles to fire 2 guns when moving, but I could also see them reducing fast vehicles to only one gun at full bs when moving 12".

I would prefer normal vehicles getting to shoot two guns, as that would fix both the predator but also the land raider

chuxfm
15-04-2015, 13:23
I would prefer normal vehicles getting to shoot two guns, as that would fix both the predator but also the land raider

Chaos Land Raider :'(

This is going off topic slightly but relates to what totgeboren said above. I thought the Machine Spirit was supposed to represent old technology that isn't understood anymore. Things like automatic target acquisition. So why would a Chaos Land Raider just lose it if it was part of the Land Raider anyway?

Chux.

Kakapo42
15-04-2015, 13:29
This is going off topic slightly but relates to what totgeboren said above. I thought the Machine Spirit was supposed to represent old technology that isn't understood anymore. Things like automatic target acquisition. So why would a Chaos Land Raider just lose it if it was part of the Land Raider anyway?

Technology that isn't understood is technology that can't easily be fixed or replaced. I imagine that after centuries upon centuries of eternal warfare the machine spirits in the Chaos Land Raiders simply wore out, and were never replaced due to a combination of lacking the right resources and the Dark Mechanicus moving on to other things instead. On the other hand Chaos Land Raiders can have certain things added on to them that the loyalist ones can't, so swings and roundabouts I suppose.

totgeboren
15-04-2015, 15:19
Yeah, but the designers notes said the machine spirit was made to make the land raider function as intended in 40k, despite the design functioning rather badly with the core 3ed rules. That is why chaos got to keep it in the 3.5 codex. Then the 4/5ed codex came along and reduced it back to being non-functioning again.

Seriously, its like removing the 5++ save on termies. It was added for a reason.

ehlijen
15-04-2015, 20:19
It was added for a reason, but it was always a crutch to let a unit that barely fit the game not be ruined by poorly implemented core rules.

The 5++ was also added because it was discovered that a change to the rules (no more save mods) broke a unit conceived under a different rules set.