PDA

View Full Version : Fluff Bunny or Power Gamer?



Akaiyou
19-04-2015, 20:31
My friend and I are having a bit of a debate. He used to be a raven guard player and has all his guys painted up as such. He was taking a lot of losses with his ravenguard. And is now playing them count-as Iron Hands. He also went and bought himself an Imperial Knight, some Imperial Guard, and a couple storm talons to add to the storm raven he already owned.

He uses the following units in almost every list he makes.
Imperial Knight Errant (every single list without exception)
Chapter Master on bike with Hammer + Shield Eternal (frequently)
Space Marine Stormwing Formation (almost every list until recently when we found out that he does NOT gain iron hands chapter tactic benefits)
3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (when using IG)

He claims that he is being a fluffy player. Using SM + AM + Imperial Knight is very fluffy. I tell him that he is most definetly a power gamer and should just embrace it for what it is instead of being in denial about it.

So what do the rest of you think? Fluff player or Power Gamer?

Okuto
19-04-2015, 20:41
My friend and I are having a bit of a debate. He used to be a raven guard player and has all his guys painted up as such. He was taking a lot of losses with his ravenguard. And is now playing them count-as Iron Hands. He also went and bought himself an Imperial Knight, some Imperial Guard, and a couple storm talons to add to the storm raven he already owned.

He uses the following units in almost every list he makes.
Imperial Knight Errant (every single list without exception)
Chapter Master on bike with Hammer + Shield Eternal (frequently)
Space Marine Stormwing Formation (almost every list until recently when we found out that he does NOT gain iron hands chapter tactic benefits)
3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks (when using IG)

He claims that he is being a fluffy player. Using SM + AM + Imperial Knight is very fluffy. I tell him that he is most definetly a power gamer and should just embrace it for what it is instead of being in denial about it.

So what do the rest of you think? Fluff player or Power Gamer?

Are they painted as iron hands? Or did he just take a bunch of stuff and put it together?

I have an irrational dislike for knights or any of the huge LoW options as IMO they belong in APOC so yeah......

But thematically is the key question, if all those forces are painted in an iron hand theme then it would technically be fluffy sure, failing that, he's using getting good mileage out of it will not die

If he's just taking his ravenguard and using iron hand rules then I'd say powergaming

Its my personal opinion that if you're taking something like a knight then you kinda stop being a fluff bunny cause most fluff bunnies would struggle to take a knight down.....

Lord Damocles
19-04-2015, 20:47
Using a different Chapter trait (or variant list) because it is more powerful is pretty much the very deffinition of a power gamer.


Taking a Knight, or Stormwing formation (or several Russes) doesn't preclude a list being fluffy (and indeed, a list being fluffy doesn't preclude someone power gaming) though.

Losing Command
19-04-2015, 20:53
Taking a Chaptermaster on bike with hammer and shield eternal is the worst offender for me. It just makes it look like he's trying to win by list-building, not learning how to play ravenguard effectively.

murgel2006
19-04-2015, 22:05
Quite frankly. I have to say I do not recognize the unit collection from any background story, book or codex entry which automatically makes it suspect.
Locking at the selected units makes it fairly clear: He looks to win by list. That alone does not make him a power gamer, the selection of units in his list does however.

Just my opinion.

Warlord Nazgred
19-04-2015, 22:18
I think the simple fact that he's proxying his raven guard as Iron Hands with no good reason other than that they have better chapter tactics by definition makes him a power gamer. I dont see how he could argue otherwise.

Scribe of Khorne
19-04-2015, 22:49
Painfully obvious, if you go out and reinvent your list, its not for Fluff.

Maxxi
19-04-2015, 22:57
Taking a Knight doesn't preclude a list being fluffy (and indeed, a list being fluffy doesn't preclude someone power gaming) though.

The only time I see a Knight as being fluffy is in an AdMech/Skitarii army.

Random Chapter X doesn't have a Knight lying around to abuse

Inquisitor Engel
19-04-2015, 23:06
If my Night Lords are using Blood Angel rules, I'm power gaming, not matter how fluffy it might feel - if another Codex came along that I thought "fit" bette, I'd move over. Play what you've painted.

Minsc
19-04-2015, 23:09
Powergamer, just as 95% of all "count as"-Ironhands. It's so obvious it's not even up for discussion really. :p

elparker
20-04-2015, 01:23
I could see the argument both ways to be honest. In terms of overall fluff, yes it could be representative of a crusade force or other battle group in any given imperial war zone. I believe however that the fact that he changed things around from what he has modelled and painted to include items that don't really fit into the idea of either the ravens or the hands (looking square the chapter master there) and is taking in every game at least one unit that simply does not fit any theme but it's own (and rather poorly in anything but an apoc game) tips him straight over into power gamer territory. In fact I would go so far as to say it is rather poor form for him to even start claiming any other theme than "I want to win."

Okuto
20-04-2015, 02:53
If my Night Lords are using Blood Angel rules, I'm power gaming, not matter how fluffy it might feel - if another Codex came along that I thought "fit" bette, I'd move over. Play what you've painted.

I actually don't take issue with that.....but then again I use raven guard to play my alpha legion.

Blood angels make pretty good night lords
Space wolves make good world eaters
Raven guard make good alpha legion
Iron hands make great iron warriors

ehlijen
20-04-2015, 03:07
He claims that he is being a fluffy player. Using SM + AM + Imperial Knight is very fluffy. I tell him that he is most definetly a power gamer and should just embrace it for what it is instead of being in denial about it.


What does embracing it actually entail? What will change?

Yeah, I'd call that powergaming. But is he leading the charge or following the pack (as in what's your meta like)?

Losing Command
20-04-2015, 03:43
I actually don't take issue with that.....but then again I use raven guard to play my alpha legion.

Yeah well but Alpha Legion can get away with anything, because of JUST AS PLANNED ;)

dblaz3r
20-04-2015, 12:42
Damn it, I should've read the op before voting. :o

I shall recant my vote and instead say if someone is constantly cherry picking the same tough units and using different chapter tactics for their specifically painted marines then they aren't really in it for the fluffs.

Dominoris
20-04-2015, 15:03
There is nothing wrong with building a solid, well round list and making your own fluff to fit it, but it is still "power gaming."

That said I would not have any problem playing against his list even with my fluff-adherent mono-Slaanesh warband. Let's face it, you can power game space marines all you want but they are still plain old middle of the road space marines.

Marshal
20-04-2015, 15:04
I don't think anything specific with the list itself is power gaming. Chapter Master on bike with hammer and shield eternal, sure, strong unit, but if that's his play style, then that's his choice. In almost every game I play, I use a chapter master with hammer and shield in termie armour, but I love combat and that's my play style.

I don't think the inclusion of a knight is power gaming. Knights look cool on their own. Yes, they are powerful, but not unbeatable by any means. The main power of the knight is the fact that it in itself is terrifying and opponents get confused by it trying to kill it, then when it doesn't die, they claim that the knight is OP, it's unkillable, a win button. It's not. I've seen my knight die several times to several things. A single knight in a game is hardly win mode.

The inclusion of leman russes is hardly power gaming. If he's including a good contingent of guard in there, the inclusion of leman russes should be expected. If he's doing a unit of vets, plus whatever the cheapest HQ is, just to get a unit of 3 leman russes, then maybe, but that doesn't sound like the case, and even then, still not really OP.

The inclusion of the storm wing formation is hardly power gaming. I love storm ravens/talons. I think they're great on the board, even just as visuals. My storm raven always seems to under perform in games though except when it's strictly a delivery system. Either way, the ability to have 2 talons come on the board with 1 raven and giving the raven strafing run is not OP.

What gets me is that everything is ravenguard, with the iron hands chapter tactic thrown on. Maybe it's because I play Templars and good and bad, I've stuck with them. I've done unspeakable things with my chapter tactics though and my army (yes, I even stuck centurions in a space wolf drop pod a couple of times with a prescience rune priest with them before), but I've stuck it out and not jumped around with the army I play.

WarsmithGarathor94
20-04-2015, 17:11
Hes a power gamer imho. My Night Lords for example will be using the BL supplement aside from my termies no marks abd if i want to include a unit the NL wouldnt normal use im going to make a small allied detachment of the other legions. In the case if termies i give them Tzeench just to represent cataphracti armour. But yeah your friend is a power gamer i cant talk as i use Huron but he makes a great count as for a NL captaib

Okuto
20-04-2015, 17:29
Yeah well but Alpha Legion can get away with anything, because of JUST AS PLANNED ;)

And I always like to point out that there's plenty of precedent for alpha legion to dress up as raven guard

Lord Damocles
20-04-2015, 18:45
The only time I see a Knight as being fluffy is in an AdMech/Skitarii army.

Random Chapter X doesn't have a Knight lying around to abuse
Given that the cover of Codex: Imperial Knights shows a Knight fighting alongside Marines, and over a decade's wrth of background has had them fighting outside of purely Mechanicus armies, claiming that the inclusion of the Knight isn't necessarily fluffy has no leg to stand on.

Arthanor
20-04-2015, 20:24
What's a power gamer? I'd say a gamer that values power over other things..

- A thunder armor, eternal shield bike chapter master doesn't look very raven guard-y. I'd say he's going for power rather than fluff.

- Using a different chapter tactic than the one of the chapter you are playing is bad. Obviously, in the mind of the game designers, the X chapter should be using the X chapter tactic. You might disagree with what the game designers think best represents your army fluffwise, but they make the fluff and the rules. It's not really an argument you can win (and not one I would ever consider doing with my BT, however bitter I might be at their codexification). Using Iron Hands chapter tactics for raven guards (unless, maybe for an heresy all mutated style raptor force) makes no sense and is clearly going after power rather than fluff.

- Storm Wing: Space Marines should strike fast and hard, having flyers is fine. Playing it with the Iron Hands tactic (and giving up when it is found to not apply) smacks of doing it solely for (erroneously gained) power though.

- Including a knight: I don't care. Knights show up for battles and often support/are supported by other stuff. Sounds like someone needs allies from Iyanden :P

- Including IG elements: I don't care. Space Marines + IG is one of the more obvious pairings. Having a SM captain lead an IG blob I consider power gaming (A SM captain has better thing to do..) if it were possible with a tactical marine, especially some of the nicer chapters like salamanders, that'd be ok though. 3 Leman Russ with a min squad of vets and the cheapest HQ is power gaming of a kind (not sure the tanks are worth it, but if they are included with so little IG support but supposed to support SM, that makes no sense fluff wise and smacks of just covering a list weakness). It depends a lot on the actual choice of allies units. Allies by themselves are not a sign of power gaming, but they often are used by power gamers.

All your friend would have to do to reclaim fluffiness would be to put the chapter master in terminator or artificer armor and repaint/redecorate his force to be iron hands. Bonus points if he plays them like Iron Hands: logic bound strategists that do not value the life of their mortal allies.