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themortalgod
20-04-2015, 17:12
Hey fellas, I haven't been on here in a very long time... just got started playing again, hadn't played in about 10 years. Anyway had to create a new account because my old email has been inactive for a long time.

Anyhoo I was hoping someone could offer some advice with dealing with a super cheesy High Elf army that I faced this weekend with my Daemons

His list was something like this:

Archmage
Level 4
Lore of Life
Book of Hoeth
275pts

Mage
Level 2
Lore of Life
Dispel Scroll
145pts

Mage
Level 2
Lore of Life
Dispel Scroll
145pts

Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Gleaming Pennant
100pts

40 Lothern Sea Guard
Command
Shields
510pts

57 White Lions
Command
Banner of the World Dragon
821pts

He put all the characters in the white lions unit and deployed the unit wide and long in the corner with the sea guard hiding behind:
211735

He then didn't move for the entire game just casting spells. The 2+ ward save against everything in my army comboed with lore of life meant at the end of the game he hadn't lost a single model and the Stubborn LD 9 white lions with BSB and gleaming pennant rerolls meant that he was never really going to flee. I couldn't get past the white lions to hurt the sea guard who he did nothing with and only brought to satisfy the core requirements for the army.

I'm at a loss at what to do against something like this with Daemons, just refuse to play? When I mentioned that his build was kinda cheese his response was basically: "You play Daemons, you deserve it, go buy a legitimate army". This is basically what my army was which I i think is fairly well balanced and not cheesy at all:

1 Keeper of Secrets
1 Herald of Tzeentch (Battle standard)
3 units of Daemonettes
2 units of Horrors
1 unit of seekers
1 unit of flamers
1 unit of fiends

Any ideas would be super welcome! Thanks! I'd love if there was just some sort of "cheese" buster I can use once to crush this set up then hopefully he will come to his senses and run a reasonable army so we can play a real game.

ARK08
20-04-2015, 17:46
probably not the best palce to post this

Codsticker
12-05-2015, 14:27
Moved to Warhammer Tactics.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

Ahnarras
12-05-2015, 14:39
Well, i would go in "just refuse to play against him again" way. His army is not fun, his deploy is not fun, and worst of all, the "go buy a legitimate army" when HE are way more broken than demon... Meh.


I don't think there is any way you can beat that army with a pur demon list.

Did you hear about the end time? It's a new way of thinking list (way more broken than usual) but it could give you the tool you need. Putrid blighknight are nurgle heavy infantry, that won't be stop by the banner of the dragon.
As he his in a big line, you could have something like 10 knight in a single row, dealing 30+ A.

But yeah, they will eat so much point that your army won't have most daemon anymore, so you can just go with a new army.
Or a better opponent.

Edit: BTW his army his illegal. You can't have twice the same magic item, so two dispel scroll is a no-no.
Also, i'm not sure what he planned to do with gleaming pennant on the BSB. BSB allow a reroll, gleaming do too, but you can't reroll twice, so i bet he's trying to cheat with this one too.

ItsAquila
12-05-2015, 14:49
Nothing much you can do against the Banner as a Demon Player.

Every HE Player who uses it against Demons just does not want to play the game. It is broken, it assures victory against demons, so what is the point?
Demons are not broken in 8th edition. They were in 7th, right now they are a good army, but nothing special by a long shot.

In short: Do not play against him. That matchup with that one banner is the ONE most broken thing in the game, period.

furrie
12-05-2015, 14:52
Well, i would go in "just refuse to play against him again" way. His army is not fun, his deploy is not fun, and worst of all, the "go buy a legitimate army" when HE are way more broken than demon... Meh.


I don't think there is any way you can beat that army with a pur demon list.

Did you hear about the end time? It's a new way of thinking list (way more broken than usual) but it could give you the tool you need. Putrid blighknight are nurgle heavy infantry, that won't be stop by the banner of the dragon.
As he his in a big line, you could have something like 10 knight in a single row, dealing 30+ A.

But yeah, they will eat so much point that your army won't have most daemon anymore, so you can just go with a new army.
Or a better opponent.

Edit: BTW his army his illegal. You can't have twice the same magic item, so two dispel scroll is a no-no.
Also, i'm not sure what he planned to do with gleaming pennant on the BSB. BSB allow a reroll, gleaming do too, but you can't reroll twice, so i bet he's trying to cheat with this one too.

he also needs another non-character unit as you need 3 non-character units in your army. But my advice to you, don't play against that guy.

tanniith
12-05-2015, 15:10
As others have mentioned his army is illegal. He needs three units and cannot take the same magic item (dispel scroll) more than once.

While I wouldn't play this guy, if you want to cheese him right back here's how you can do it. Take Kairos Fateweaver. You get to pick your spells with him. For the left head pick Dwellers Below from lore of Life, Final Transmutation from lore of Metal, Net of Amyntok from the lore of light, and Comet of Cassandora from lore of Heavens.

For the right head pick Burning head from lore of fire, pit of shades from shadow, whatever from beasts, and purple sun from death. Fill up the rest of your roster with things that will help you generate more power dice from channeling and whatnot.

Deploy Kairos within 40'' of his white lions. Deploy the rest of your army as far away as possible from him. Turn one, get within max range of Dwellers Below on his White Lions and pick your spells from the left head. 6 dice dwellers on the unit of white lions. His characters will not get look out sir rolls, will not get a ward save because the spell specifies "no save of any kind allowed", and will die on a 4+. This will happen to the entire unit. Use whatever dice you have left to cast Net of Amyntok on the unit. This requires the unit to make a strength (which will be on their base strength 3. Don't let him try and tell you his great weapons give a bonus to tests. They don't.) check before it does anything (move, shoot, cast spells). If failed, the unit takes D6 hits and the unit cannot do that action. If he tries to cast a spell and fails the strength check, the spell fails and the wizard is done casting.

Literally rinse and repeat for 6 turns. He won't be able to touch Kairos. The only thing he can do by spamming lore of life is to try and dwellers below you, which you will only fail on a 6 and he's going to very quickly lose that banner of the world dragon and all of his mages.

Normally I hate the "Test or die" spells, but this exact situation is what they were put in the game for.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2015, 15:40
Well the Banner of the World Dragon doesn't make you immune to panic.....

To achieve this.
1. Treason of Tzeentch the White Lions on the turn before the charge, he can't remove it unless he uses Drain Magic and so will be stuck at leadership 8 for the ensuing panic test.
2. Phantasmagoria (slaanesh spell), now he has to roll 3D6 and discard the lowest for the ensuing panic test.
3. Soul Grinder with the Fire thrower, cause a wound to the enemy and they take a panic test. (this is optional)
4. Charge the White Lions in your own turn with either the Soulgrinder or the Keeper of Secrets and pray you get lucky.

Assuming it pays off, laugh loudly into the guys face from no more than 6" from him for the next hour or so.
If he tries to get away from you, ask loudly if he rolled another (insert number he rolled to fail his panic test) and then continue laughing.
High five everyone.

Failing that, magic the seaguard to death.
If you can get Final Transmutation, 6 dice that at his white lions and hope his characters roll 6's.
Then just stay as far back as possible from him for the rest of the game and win by a small margin.
There's a chance his mages will explode as well, just be sure to dispel any attempt he makes at Throne of Vines.

tanniith
12-05-2015, 15:42
Well the Banner of the World Dragon doesn't make you immune to panic.....

To achieve this.
1. Treason of Tzeentch the White Lions on the turn before the charge, he can't remove it unless he uses Drain Magic and so will be stuck at leadership 8 for the ensuing panic test.
2. Phantasmagoria (slaanesh spell), now he has to roll 3D6 and discard the lowest for the ensuing panic test.
3. Soul Grinder with the Fire thrower, cause a wound to the enemy and they take a panic test. (this is optional)
4. Charge the White Lions in your own turn with either the Soulgrinder or the Keeper of Secrets and pray you get lucky.

Assuming it pays off, laugh loudly into the guys face from no more than 6" from him for the next hour or so.
If he tries to get away from you, ask loudly if he rolled another (insert number he rolled to fail his panic test) and then continue laughing.
High five everyone.

Failing that, magic the seaguard to death.
If you can get Final Transmutation, 6 dice that at his white lions and hope his characters roll 6's.
Then just stay as far back as possible from him for the rest of the game and win by a small margin.
There's a chance his mages will explode as well, just be sure to dispel any attempt he makes at Throne of Vines.

Dwellers will work better than final trans. There's no reason to get anything other than Kairos within range. Once his mages are dead just fly away and win on points. He won't be able to catch anything OP has if he deploys like that.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2015, 15:48
Dwellers will work better than final trans. There's no reason to get anything other than Kairos within range. Once his mages are dead just fly away and win on points. He won't be able to catch anything OP has if he deploys like that.

I only suggested Final Transmutation because I was only considering the models he has in his army, not other things. (yes I know he hasn't got a soulgrinder, I was looking for something that could somewhat reliably cause a panic test)

tanniith
12-05-2015, 15:52
I only suggested Final Transmutation because I was only considering the models he has in his army, not other things.

Oh okay. Though Kairos is absolutely amazing and if he doesn't have a Lord of Change he should pick one up anyways haha. Or he could always proxy it. The dude is playing an illegal army, if he bitches about proxies just bring that up and continue as normal.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 15:56
Sigh Oh look another high elf cheese list, whats worse is he had the audacity to say that about deamons. High elves are the best army in fantasy right now.
The two dispel scrolls are definitely illegal and I will check but as someone said ^there has to be at least 3 non character units. Btw if you do see this guy again tell him.
As long as you stick to the rules i've come to realise that warhammer IS somewhat balanced- the most op things do have weaknesses and drawbacks that you need to exploit.
If you can choose spells with Kairos as someone suggested take dwellers below and purple sun for sure, Yes 6 dice it, just make sure you can deal with a miscast.

tanniith
12-05-2015, 15:59
Sigh Oh look another high elf cheese list, whats worse is he had the audacity to say that about deamons. High elves are the best army in fantasy right now.

I don't know if they're the best. Vampire Counts can definitely give them a run for their money, as can WoC, and Dark Elves.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 16:17
I don't know if they're the best. Vampire Counts can definitely give them a run for their money, as can WoC, and Dark Elves.

Originally I bought the new Vampire Counts book to use so i've read all there rules. They are without doubt powerful especially with a black knight bus and a few beefed up vampires that will eat everything (save for perhaps phoenix guard) However once you've killed the general it's pretty much over for them.
Dark elves are close behind, for example witch elves are one of the most killy units points wise units in the game, but they also have frenzy and will die in dozens from a few shots or attacks back.

I think what makes high elves so strong is that there so good at everything. And do every phase so well. One small unit can do a lot of damage, being elves they do have low toughness but this is negated by all there ward saves and armour. I can't think of one unit in the army list that is bad or not worthwhile. You can essentially put together a few random units and they will gel so well.

tanniith
12-05-2015, 17:00
Not really, VC have plenty of options outside of their general to wreak havoc and honestly, what do the HE have that can take a VL down?

Aranel
12-05-2015, 18:21
Sigh Oh look another high elf cheese list, whats worse is he had the audacity to say that about deamons. High elves are the best army in fantasy right now.

Nonsense; Dark Elves, Warriors and Skaven have that honour, closely followed by Vampires and Ogres. If he's running life, try and take as many high strength models as possible to minimise the impact of dwellers. I would also run Kairos and select as many spells that ignore ward saves as possible to target the lions + flyers and ambushes to get around the line and hit the seaguard. It's a really negative strategy on your opponents part and the banner is irritating but it's also a very static, one trick pony. Definitely beatable.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 19:35
Not really, VC have plenty of options outside of their general to wreak havoc and honestly, what do the HE have that can take a VL down?
In a challenge probably nothing, on the other hand 30+phoenix guard will put a stop (at least for a few turns) to that train wit no station. Nothing in warhammer is really overpowered but if there was a number 1 spot for best army to use ,in general they would take it, maybe only by a little but still.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 19:44
Nonsense; Dark Elves, Warriors and Skaven have that honour, closely followed by Vampires and Ogres.

Skaven are right up there in top 3 with HE and WC, slaves are 2 points, shooting into combat, +1 LD for ranks, lead from back, skitterleap, warp lightning cannon, dreaded 13th, did I mention slaves are 2 points?, poisoned attacks, etc etc
However they're also unreliable and especially in smaller games -very difficult to use if you're a beginner. Their standard clanrats and even stormvermin don't really kill or do much on their own it's when everything in the army list comes together that they become a formidable force.

Knifeparty
12-05-2015, 20:33
He needs 3 units minimum, but yea. This army is completely against the spirit of the game.

Just sit in the opposite corner and don't move at all except with Kairos to cast either Dwellers or Transmutation on his White Lions. Do this every single game until he decides to change his army. Or honestly, just find some new people to play with.

themortalgod
12-05-2015, 22:00
Hey guys, thanks for moving the thread for me, I tried to post it here but it wouldn't let me as my account was too new. Thanks for some of the great suggestions.

In regards to his illegal army, I went back to him to confirm and I think i misremembered what he had, he claims he had 2 units of sea guard side by side. (Though come to think of it I'd be really surprised if he was within the confines of the "must be more than 1 inch" apart rule. And his second scroll was a feedback scroll, not dispel. My bad there, I could have sworn he used 2 dispel scrolls, maybe he cheated, maybe i just misremembered. I doubt it would have changed the outcome.

The Kairos idea is certainly an interesting solution, (though 5 dicing spells could be precarious with that feedback scroll kicking around).

I pretty much don't want to play with him anymore tbh, he is certainly a bit of a dick, im relatively new to the group though so it makes it hard to be all dramatic. The other guys are really reasonable, fun and good natured. (We have another HE player who won't even take BoWD because he feels its broken, though I really struggle to beat his army too, HEs are a rough matchup for sure). I think they have just been friends with this guy for decades so turn a blind eye to his ************.

pinktaco
13-05-2015, 14:15
You need 3 units in Core if I'm not mistsienkng but that doesn't matter. The true issue is the horde of white lions with that banner against that army. He could easily split his core and it wouldn't make a difference. Also yes 2 scrolls is illegal, but again this won't change the outcome.

What is worse is that he must've known what you'd be playing. Nobody makes an army like this. Don't ever play this person again, he doesn't care about you and being rude like that tells me more about him than you. Also wtf is wrong with him? Like does he have a mental condition? You haven't played for 10 years and decided to give you the worst experience possible.

Don't bother to learn how to win against that because you'll likely never phase this exact build again, ever. The banner is tough ugh, but what he did was abusing it to ruin the fun of the game. Your list also came off as not cheesy so the point he tried to prove seems misplaced.

Don't feel bad for losing. =]

pinktaco
13-05-2015, 14:18
Hey guys, thanks for moving the thread for me, I tried to post it here but it wouldn't let me as my account was too new. Thanks for some of the great suggestions.

In regards to his illegal army, I went back to him to confirm and I think i misremembered what he had, he claims he had 2 units of sea guard side by side. (Though come to think of it I'd be really surprised if he was within the confines of the "must be more than 1 inch" apart rule. And his second scroll was a feedback scroll, not dispel. My bad there, I could have sworn he used 2 dispel scrolls, maybe he cheated, maybe i just misremembered. I doubt it would have changed the outcome.

The Kairos idea is certainly an interesting solution, (though 5 dicing spells could be precarious with that feedback scroll kicking around).

I pretty much don't want to play with him anymore tbh, he is certainly a bit of a dick, im relatively new to the group though so it makes it hard to be all dramatic. The other guys are really reasonable, fun and good natured. (We have another HE player who won't even take BoWD because he feels its broken, though I really struggle to beat his army too, HEs are a rough matchup for sure). I think they have just been friends with this guy for decades so turn a blind eye to his ************.

A bit of a dick? He was downright rude and since you haven't played for 10 years he should be teaching you the game! There's every reason to not play this person again. It's fine that you're uncertain about fair play, but let me tell you this - he did not ever intend for you to have fun or teach you anything. Avoid him.

Someone as scummy as him shouldn't be allowed to play lol :p

tanniith
13-05-2015, 14:55
Hey guys, thanks for moving the thread for me, I tried to post it here but it wouldn't let me as my account was too new. Thanks for some of the great suggestions.

In regards to his illegal army, I went back to him to confirm and I think i misremembered what he had, he claims he had 2 units of sea guard side by side. (Though come to think of it I'd be really surprised if he was within the confines of the "must be more than 1 inch" apart rule. And his second scroll was a feedback scroll, not dispel. My bad there, I could have sworn he used 2 dispel scrolls, maybe he cheated, maybe i just misremembered. I doubt it would have changed the outcome.

The Kairos idea is certainly an interesting solution, (though 5 dicing spells could be precarious with that feedback scroll kicking around).

I pretty much don't want to play with him anymore tbh, he is certainly a bit of a dick, im relatively new to the group though so it makes it hard to be all dramatic. The other guys are really reasonable, fun and good natured. (We have another HE player who won't even take BoWD because he feels its broken, though I really struggle to beat his army too, HEs are a rough matchup for sure). I think they have just been friends with this guy for decades so turn a blind eye to his ************.


There will probably be times when playing him is the only option, so just keep Kairos handy. I wouldn't worry about the feedback scroll. If you 6 dice a spell you'll on average take 1.6 wounds or so from the scroll after your ward save (and remember, he can't use the scroll if the model dies from Final Trans or Dwellers!). Besides, since you'll be wanting to cast Dwellers every turn you'll be regaining wounds from the lore attribute, lifebloom, every turn anyways. Other than this feedback scroll his list and deployment means he has no way his army can hurt you. You'll be out of range of his Seaguard and if his WL march up they won't ever catch Kairos.

logan054
14-05-2015, 10:08
Once he brings a legal I think glean magic on life would be very effective at dealing with the white lions, A flying greater daemon with a portalglyh would also be a interesting way of killing his bunker, deploy a big killy unit from the glyph so it can go after his bunker, use a beast of nurgle to hold up white lions.

popisdead
15-05-2015, 23:07
I've never lost to a HE army with the BotWD. I used 40 (go deep) Daemonettes, cast the 3D6 LD test from the Lore of Slaanesh and if you can Doom and Darkness. The failed Fear test will help not take wounds and you'll be back with Combat Res to win combat again, you should win that. Also the Slaanesh spell that forces the unit to move D6 in a random direction, all while castled up means they can only move forward (they shouldn't be able to spin around) and you can get some Furies in behind.

Looking at his list, his BSB is REALLY naked. Look to pop him.

Well his response about not playing a legitimate army is likely due to having to put up with them in 7th ed when they were irrational. But hiding behind "his army is cheese" is equally as childish. If he always plays this way and you aren't having fun feel free to not play him. I don't play people who are WAAC. At my age I'm only playing my friends in pick up games. These are competitive (we'll use tournament-ready lists) but rarely are we tossing insults around.

One thing you can consider is taking Kairos and select long range spells to buff or hex all while hiding Kairos from Line of Sight.

Best of luck.

General_Vega
20-05-2015, 23:36
Punch the guy in the face.

Lucidexistence
31-05-2015, 15:41
I feel you bro, in my first game ever, I played 1100 points WoCh vs HE. He deployed 2x 20 archers for core, bolt thrower and rest in heroes (lore of fire ofc) and white lions with banner of the world dragon, then deployed in the corner behind a pool and camped for me to come. Pretty much the game ended before the first CC

ewar
01-06-2015, 12:51
Also, don't forget to roll scenarios, if you dwellers his lord and BSB then you win.

Otherwise, the advice given already to take Kairos and just cast dwellers and gateway on the unit (11 or 12 takes them out of the game... )and win on points. Take regrowth from life to heal any wounds Kairos takes. Rinse and repeat until he realises his unbeatable 'strategy' is ruining hobbies.

Groza
01-06-2015, 12:59
(11 or 12 takes them out of the game... )
In 7th, not anymore.
Lore of tzeentch is absolute trash.

ewar
01-06-2015, 13:30
In 7th, not anymore.
Lore of tzeentch is absolute trash.

My bad, not one of my armies. Glean magic is pretty awesome though... so wouldn't say lore was trash, especially as Gateway is still decent.

Kahadras
02-06-2015, 22:11
I'd say don't bother playing with him. As a HE player myself I'd say the first rule of HE sportsmanship is not to run the Banner against Daemons. Look for other people to play with.

HappyCan303
04-06-2015, 14:42
Option 1: punch him in the face. Maybe not the best option, but for that moment it would feel really good. Its crap like this that kills groups and the hobby as a whole.

Option 2: Got a buddy who plays Skaven? Want to give him a taste of what sitting there taking off models and not having fun is like? Run a Legion of the Everchosen and take two Skull Cannons and two Warp Lightning Cannons... might even fit something more in but I'm not sure. Set up in opposite corner and laugh. If no Warp Lightning Cannons are around a Hellcannon works wonders as well.

Options 3: OK being serious. Break out a couple of cheap redirectors from somewhere just to make sure his White Lions are completely useless. Move you're greater daemons up and start lobbing magic into the Saeguard on turn 1. Don't worry overly about getting the unit killer spells; put enough damage into the target and it dies. Yes there is a chance he could Dwellers you, but its 1 in 6 IF he gets it off. Yes he can shoot you, but again that not a real reliable way to hurt a greater daemon. If you wipe out one Seaguard unit you're done. Fly away, win on points, and pack up your stuff.

Glean Magic will be AMAZING in this. He really can't let if get through more than once or twice, and if you do steal Dwellers he's pretty much screwed.

Ignore the White Lions. As hard as that is, they really are just a wall and you do have options to shoot over it. And make sure he follows the 1" apart rule at ALL times. Bunkering back in a corner like that gets real tight real quick and you don't need a lot of space to get a Keep in. Once that's behind his lines he's done.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

popisdead
04-06-2015, 20:27
Can people stop suggesting Punch in the Face? Are mods warning those people or is that only for personal preference?

If you have an army that cannot overcome one item in an opponents list it's most likely you aren't playing well. In 5th ed 40k everyone complained about Lash of Slaanesh. Except the people who didn't deploy within range of it being effective and knew what Target Prioritization was.

swordofglass
04-06-2015, 23:23
If you have an army that cannot overcome one item in an opponents list it's most likely you are using Daemons

Fixed it for you

forseer of fates
05-06-2015, 01:50
Sometimes you do just want to punch teclis hugging high elf players. But teclis and hopefully the banner of lies will be lost in 9th edition.

English 2000
05-06-2015, 03:11
Nothing much you can do against the Banner as a Demon Player.

Every HE Player who uses it against Demons just does not want to play the game. It is broken, it assures victory against demons, so what is the point?

In short: Do not play against him. That matchup with that one banner is the ONE most broken thing in the game, period.

As both a high elf and daemon player I 100% disagree with everything I quoted above. BotWD is far from an autowin against Daemons.




Well the Banner of the World Dragon doesn't make you immune to panic.....

To achieve this.
1. Treason of Tzeentch the White Lions on the turn before the charge, he can't remove it unless he uses Drain Magic and so will be stuck at leadership 8 for the ensuing panic test.
2. Phantasmagoria (slaanesh spell), now he has to roll 3D6 and discard the lowest for the ensuing panic test.
3. Soul Grinder with the Fire thrower, cause a wound to the enemy and they take a panic test. (this is optional)
4. Charge the White Lions in your own turn with either the Soulgrinder or the Keeper of Secrets and pray you get lucky.

Assuming it pays off, laugh loudly into the guys face from no more than 6" from him for the next hour or so.
If he tries to get away from you, ask loudly if he rolled another (insert number he rolled to fail his panic test) and then continue laughing.
High five everyone.

Failing that, magic the seaguard to death.
If you can get Final Transmutation, 6 dice that at his white lions and hope his characters roll 6's.
Then just stay as far back as possible from him for the rest of the game and win by a small margin.
There's a chance his mages will explode as well, just be sure to dispel any attempt he makes at Throne of Vines.

This made me laugh. Great post.

I've never lost to a HE army with the BotWD. I used 40 (go deep) Daemonettes, cast the 3D6 LD test from the Lore of Slaanesh and if you can Doom and Darkness. The failed Fear test will help not take wounds and you'll be back with Combat Res to win combat again, you should win that. Also the Slaanesh spell that forces the unit to move D6 in a random direction, all while castled up means they can only move forward (they shouldn't be able to spin around) and you can get some Furies in behind.

Looking at his list, his BSB is REALLY naked. Look to pop him.

Well his response about not playing a legitimate army is likely due to having to put up with them in 7th ed when they were irrational. But hiding behind "his army is cheese" is equally as childish. If he always plays this way and you aren't having fun feel free to not play him. I don't play people who are WAAC. At my age I'm only playing my friends in pick up games. These are competitive (we'll use tournament-ready lists) but rarely are we tossing insults around.

One thing you can consider is taking Kairos and select long range spells to buff or hex all while hiding Kairos from Line of Sight.

Best of luck.
Hooray, a Daemon player who understands that the BotWD can be beaten with Daemons!

For those complaining about how broken and overpowered High Elves are, he could have used Allarielle too [emoji14]

Also, in many circles HE are considered middle of the pack. Generally WOC and DE are the army of choice for power gamers.

Groza
05-06-2015, 03:28
So apparently it's not a guaranteed win because magic can fix anything?
I'm sorry but one of the most basic rules of theoryhammer is to NEVER ASSUME YOU WILL GET ANY SPELLS OFF, EVER.
Doesn't matter if it's a strategy or small plan, you should not try to prove things or plan lists around your magic. Magic is something to be considered in your plans and put to use on the battlefield, not a decisive factor to determine if BotWD is broken or not.
It's broken beyond any justification and there's no getting around that.

Bladelord
05-06-2015, 06:58
I'd say don't bother playing with him. As a HE player myself I'd say the first rule of HE sportsmanship is not to run the Banner against Daemons. Look for other people to play with.

Daemons can be such a hard machup vs Asur that I don't know if I'd call that sportsmanship. Abusing the banner however...

tanniith
05-06-2015, 07:39
So apparently it's not a guaranteed win because magic can fix anything?
I'm sorry but one of the most basic rules of theoryhammer is to NEVER ASSUME YOU WILL GET ANY SPELLS OFF, EVER.
Doesn't matter if it's a strategy or small plan, you should not try to prove things or plan lists around your magic. Magic is something to be considered in your plans and put to use on the battlefield, not a decisive factor to determine if BotWD is broken or not.
It's broken beyond any justification and there's no getting around that.

In this specific scenario, with the Daemon player using Kairos against this specific army with ZERO ability to reach out and and hit Kairos he will get at least one Dwellers off. You essentially have 6 attempts to 6 dice spells. Sure, you could roll less than 6 on winds of magic or not IF the spell, but its extremely unlikely you wont IF the spell at least once. All he has to do is pick out a single character and then just run away for the rest of the game. He could win with VP being 150 ish to 0 and it's still a win.

Groza
05-06-2015, 12:21
Again, I am not questioning the tactic itself, it has great chances of working.
But I don't think this makes the BotWD not broken.
Also, consider that if you're playing a tailored list it is probably a friendly game and not a tournament, in which case you shouldn't *normally* have to worry about your opponent outcheesing you. And in a tourny a daemon player can't take an anti-BotWD list and fare equally against the rest of the armies, whereas a high elf army with BotWD in 40 white lions is unlikely to regret the 50 points.

English 2000
05-06-2015, 12:50
To the OP: What you experienced is the worst of negative play, corner hammer is up there with shooty avoidance lists for being boring to play with and against.

In general, the tactic is to kill everything around the lionstar and win that way. Since he's playing corner hammer the best way to achieve that is with magic. It's not a surefire way to win but I think it'll work more times than not. At the least it'll be boring enough that the other guy might change his list/tactics.

There are a lot of discussions on various forums about Daemons and BotWD.

I generally find Daemon players are in one of two camps

A) The complainers
B) The ones who say "yeah, it's rough but here is a list of things we can do to counter it"

Search the interwebz and read what the people in camp B have to say.

Honestly, as both a Daemon and High Elf player I think the banner is just fine. But maybe that's because I loath the idea of deathstars and refuse to use them.

I've beaten plenty of them though so I know it can be done.

SanDiegoSurrealist
05-06-2015, 18:41
Lore of Slannesh Cacophonous Choir is always fun for moving units out of position.

Tau_player001
09-06-2015, 12:48
Tell him you are bringing demons again, and then bring dwarfs and catapult the sucker.

hazmiter
09-06-2015, 13:16
Well you could always go borrow someones dark elves and run morathii in a unit of 100 spearmen, and give her the sacrificial dagger (but that might not work in the current book).

Don Zeko
09-06-2015, 16:15
Well you could always go borrow someones dark elves and run morathii in a unit of 100 spearmen, and give her the sacrificial dagger (but that might not work in the current book).

Well for one, Morathi can't take arcane items, so no sacrificial dagger. For two, she has to be mounted on a pegasus, so no look out sir if you fight anybody with war machines. For three, 100 spearmen cost 930 points. For four, Morathi can only take Death and Shadow, but to kill a BotWD unit of white lions you really need life magic and dwellers. And for five, if you have to take a different army to deal with something, that thing is broken. It still boggles my mind that anybody tries to defend the balance of the banner of the world dragon in any context, much less for the daemons match-up. You'd think the fact that almost every Tournament comps it in one way or another would convince people, but apparently not.

SanDiegoSurrealist
10-06-2015, 12:51
For Daemons BotWD is is pain in the ass.

If you run a big unit of Warrior of Chaos into the unit with the banner, that would pretty much assure getting rid of it. Issue there is number of points on for the unit of CWs and all your daemons are now unstable (but that might be good practice for 9th where daemons will assuredly be unstable anyway).

Other option is just avoid the unit or throw a sacrificial unit at it, use lots of fast moving units flyers, Seekers Chariots, and Daemonettes to dance around the unit and take out smaller units an whittle down the rest of the force.

hazmiter
10-06-2015, 16:23
Haha quite true don zeko, i have the last army book, one before current. In that one she was capable of taking it.
If you have to change an army to beat an army it shows that either A) the balance is skewed and the army in question is cheesey broken, or B) you have yet to explore all the available options in your book (and some options need some "out side the square thinking").
Theres always a solution of sorts in a book for something that gives you trouble. Many of the posts support this, some recommending kairos, who is arguably one of the most irritating casters in the game due to his flexibility and movement.

NpSkully
13-06-2015, 13:50
Yeah. Aside from being illegal, this guy is definately just a dick. Question: have you been playing fantasy for long? Cuz if you are also just getting into the game on top of everything then this guy is just a jackass. Honestly I would recommend maybe running a nurgle daemon prince and trying to get curse of the leper along with kairos. Don't even bother with leadership or bsb, just on casting. Get curse of and dwellers with kairos and just pulp his entire army. End Times, as someone might have mentioned, allows 50% lords/heroes allowance and, although I don't play daemons, I think you should be able to pull this off. Another idea is just getting the lions to panic with the slannesh spells, and they should run far enough that they just pop through his sea guard unit and run off of the board based on how it looked like he set his army up.

pinktaco
14-06-2015, 12:21
I'm amazed people are stilling coming up with solutions. He was downright rude. Would anybody actually play someone who doesn't want you to have fun? It's a GAME and and the goal should be to have fun. If someone go full retard on me I'll just not play them again. It's super simple and effective.

Don Zeko
15-06-2015, 16:44
I'm amazed people are stilling coming up with solutions. He was downright rude. Would anybody actually play someone who doesn't want you to have fun? It's a GAME and and the goal should be to have fun. If someone go full retard on me I'll just not play them again. It's super simple and effective.

Unless, of course, there's nobody else at the game store that night, or you're playing in a tournament, or some such thing like that. it would be nice if we didn't have to deal with ridiculous builds from time to time, but we do, and therefore it pays to be prepared.

hazmiter
15-06-2015, 18:10
I'm amazed people are stilling coming up with solutions. He was downright rude. Would anybody actually play someone who doesn't want you to have fun? It's a GAME and and the goal should be to have fun. If someone go full retard on me I'll just not play them again. It's super simple and effective.

Or in a world where everything was fair, the next time he brought that list, you could have fun by not letting him have his fun, but then that would be doing what he does. And that at the end, wouldn't be sportsman like.