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View Full Version : 1400 point dark elf list vs Teclis...Please help



tactical dark elf
10-05-2015, 18:17
After getting back into Warhammer recently, my friend also started playing a high elf list consisting of

Teclis
Hero mounted
Hero on foot
30 Phoenix Guard ( I already regret advising him to do this)
White Lion Chariot

And he will get 3 units of silverhelms. Yep. He didn't even have a core unit. Bringing him up to about 1800 (with the silverhelms). I know this was an illegal list, Teclis is over the limit, etc etc ,but he just won't play without. With the helms it will be legal. This is painful to play against and really really boring.

This is my 1400 point list.

Level 4 sorceress, dark magic-I might swap this for death -purple sun, dispel scroll, cloak of twilight
20 corsairs, additional hand weapons, full command
5 dark riders, full command, shields, Xbows
20 executioners, full command
5 cold one knights, full command
5 doomfire warlocks, champion
5 doomfire warlocks, champion

I've beaten him every time through victory points, and killed Teclis only once when he wasn't in a unit- now he Always Is. In the 30 man phoenix guard. Which is really difficult to kill. Now I know he's going to protect his flanks with the silverhelms, camp at the back and spam magic at me, while shutting down my magic phase every turn and dispelling AND removing e.g purple sun forever. What is the point of playing?

Should I just say no to playing against him until the list is legal and I even have enough points to match him? Or try and kill him with what I have? Then how will I take him out with the Phoenix Guard in the way?
Is Teclis just bad for the game or am I missing something? All you have to do is camp at the back with 30+PG bunker with Teclis possibly 12 dicing spells, rerolling every casting dice he chooses, +5 to cast and dispel, rerolls to wound, + D3 dispel and casting dice, and laughs at the miscasts- if there are any because of the rerolls-because Phoenix Guard have a 4+.
Please Help.

Knifeparty
10-05-2015, 21:14
You should not play against an ******* who doesn't have a legal list. The point of the game is to have fun, not win at all costs. If he complains, question his masculinity until he concedes.

Get 35 Witch elves with a Cauldron of blood, and then drink his delicious high elf tears.

This unit will eat the phoenix guard alive.

Make sure you put the razor standard on the unit as well as Cry of War. The cry of war will make him test for fear on -3 because you cause terror and his Phoenix Guard only cause fear. That will make him WS 1 potentially. Drop the Executioners, they aren't good against High Elves. Drop Corsairs for Witch Elves, drop the full command on the Dark Riders (musicians only), make the Warlocks 1 unit and put the level 4 in there. ALWAYS take a battle standard bearer, ALWAYS. Make the Cauldron of Blood your BSB.

Teclis cannot cast with 12 dice. All mages can only cast with a maximum of 6. He cannot re-roll casting dice, he cannot re-roll to wound, he does not add D3 dispel and casting dice. He can only add an additional casting die on each spell in one magic phase per game if he uses his spell, or He can ignore his first miscast. He cannot do both, this is an ability he gets from his staff. If he chooses to do one of those 2 actions, his Strength and toughness drop to 1 for the rest of the game.

Remember, Teclis dies if a strong gust of wind hits him. You could suicide charge a unit of Dark Riders into him and try to kill him off. The Dark riders will die, but it will be worth it.

My suggestion would be to get the High Elf book for yourself and read what the army can actually do, so you know when he starts cheating.

Tell your "friend" to stop cheating.

Ahnarras
10-05-2015, 21:31
Well, my first advise would be to NOT play against someone that isn't following the rule. Should be common sense.
If he won't play with the real rule, don't play against him. Or play, but without following the rule you too. Bring thrice Malekith, the Eternal King, and look at him weeping. Should be enough for a cold shower.

My second advice would be to not play against someone bringing Teclis (one of the most broken special character, and one of the few that make special character ban in almost every tournament).

My last advice would be to not play against someone bringing 30 PG at a 1400pt game. Seriously...

Well, that's being say, i will try to help a little with your list:

Purple sun is a bad idea. It's base on initiative, and PG have a good I. I would advice going for the lore of life (you can do that now, i think?) and spamming the 6th spell. Dispel scroll is a must have, i'm not sure about the cloack. If he isn't snipping your lvl 4, maybe you could just put her in a bunch of crossbower.
Alternatively, there is a few chance that this lvl 4 will do something. Maybe you could just go with a lvl 1 with scroll, and call it a day, putting your point elsewhere.

Your corsair are useless, there is nothing in his list that fear S3 attacks. At least not in close combat. You need crossbow, a lot of them, and more chaff.

Dark rider are good chaff, but one unit isn't enough to delay his deathstar for long. They are here to die, they don't need full command (maybe the musician for rally). He doesn't have bow, so you can skip the shield.

I'm not sold neither on executionner or knight. Both are great, but he has 30 guy. You need as much, or even more. He has a lot of point in teclis, you could have 35-40 executionner with some character support. Or multiple unit of 5-10 cold one knight.

Doomfire: i know they are gorgeous right now, but there is no point using them against teclis. Skip them, and invest in something more reliable.

Basically, if you really want to play against his list, you need to soften his DS (with a lot of arrow) then hit him with a melee block. Repeater big crossbow (the warmachine, i forgot the name) would be great against his chariot and silver helm too.
Don't try to outmagic him, you can't. Just bring a scroll, and keep your point for something else.

I'm not familiar with Teclis lore, but if he isn't in Metal, maybe you could swap the lvl 4 for a bunch of heros on pegasus or cold one. He is only F5-6 i believe, having a lot of guy with 1+AS should be a pain for him.

I hope it will help a little :)

Knifeparty
10-05-2015, 21:35
Teclis is just a level 5 Mage that is either Loremaster High Magic, or can pick 1 spell from each of the 8 lores of magic. Remember if he chooses his spells from the lores of magic, he must do so while writing his list, he can't just change the spells at the beginning of each battle depending on his opponent. He is not that broken, in fact taking a level 4 Archmage with the Book of Hoeth and The Talisman of Preservation is often a better choice because Teclis can die so easily. Once per battle he can either choose to ignore a miscast, or add an additional power die on each one of his castings. If he does this then he becomes Strength/Toughness 1.

Knifeparty
10-05-2015, 21:46
After some calculating, the 35 Witch Elves with the Cauldron should be able to kill 12.61 Phoenix Guard on the first turn. This is assuming that you have hatred, the extra attack from the Cauldron's Bound Spell and the Razor Standard. This does not include impact hits, attacks from the Death Hag or him failing his fear test.

In return, he will kill 9.022 Witch Elves with his Phoenix Guard (not including his characters). But you will have more ranks than him afterwards and he can break. You can also direct attacks into Teclis (recommended).

This fight is in your favour. Especially if you take the Tomb of Furion on your level 4 and grab Shroud of Despair. This will reduce his leadership by 1 every time he fails a fear check (which should be at -3 because of the cry of war from your Death Hag). You could also drop your Cold One Knights for a Kharibdyss so he has to re-roll successful fear checks.

Cynigher
11-05-2015, 12:40
If he's using an illegal list, well go for the same take Morathi and then load up on warlocks for the rest of your points.

tactical dark elf
11-05-2015, 14:48
After some calculating, the 35 Witch Elves with the Cauldron should be able to kill 12.61 Phoenix Guard on the first turn. This is assuming that you have hatred, the extra attack from the Cauldron's Bound Spell and the Razor Standard. This does not include impact hits, attacks from the Death Hag or him failing his fear test.

In return, he will kill 9.022 Witch Elves with his Phoenix Guard (not including his characters). But you will have more ranks than him afterwards and he can break. You can also direct attacks into Teclis (recommended).

This fight is in your favour. Especially if you take the Tomb of Furion on your level 4 and grab Shroud of Despair. This will reduce his leadership by 1 every time he fails a fear check (which should be at -3 because of the cry of war from your Death Hag). You could also drop your Cold One Knights for a Kharibdyss so he has to re-roll successful fear checks.

Every post you write should be compiled into a how too Dark Elf Bible srs lol thanks for the advice. I have already said i'm only going to play against him if its legal. Witch Elves with the combined stuff^ would be a solid choice, but the to spend on them is just too much and I don't have atm. A few Reaper bolt throwers single shots on him would be another cheaper one perhaps, would that do?

Another new thought is an Assassin
Its cheap money wise, throw it in the 20man corsairs, add banner of swiftness, relying on 4+ armour to get across to the PG deathstar, maybe have a unit of dark riders directly in front to give cover and take charges from the silverhelms. And then just throw them into the PG with the corsair unit. If the PG unit charges the riders destroys them outright, knowing him, he'd overrun right into my corsairs-or at the very least very close to them for a charge from me next turn, unknowingly setting Teclis up.

Thereby killing Teclis, i'd logically lose a dispel scroll (presumably) until I get there, a unit of corsairs, 5 dark riders and an assassin. Hopefully pulling a unit of Silverhelms out of position and setting the PG up for some flank charges with the cold one knights etc.

Knifeparty
11-05-2015, 16:42
Every post you write should be compiled into a how too Dark Elf Bible srs lol thanks for the advice.

HAHA, thanks.

If you go the Bolt Thrower route, make sure you take at least 3. Generally that is what is required for maximum effectiveness. Bolt throwers really need mass fire to do any kind of useful damage. Never do solid shot against Phoenix Guard, their 4+ ward save means that it could bounce off the first guy and never do any damage at all. Always multi shot against them. Even against small units of Silver Helms I think multi-shot would be better unless you manage to get a shot in the flank where the solid bolt can pierce ranks. If he has 3 or more ranks of Silver Helms (the high elf lance formation) then solid shot works well.

The assassin could work well for killing Teclis. There's a couple of options. You could put him in the corsairs and risk getting into combat with the phoenix guard. You could put the assassin in a unit of shades and charge on the second turn into his phoenix guard, or you could put the flying carpet on the assassin so he can fly (remember though he can't join units then) and double charge him in with either Dark riders or a Master on a Pegasus. In all of these scenarios it's important to have a unit champion to take the challenges for the assassin. If he challenges with Teclis, then accept with the Assassin to kill him. But if he challenges with any other hero or champion accept with your unit champion so that you are free to kill off Teclis with the Assassin. Positioning is key, make sure you position the assassin in base contact with Teclis when the charge happens.

I guess the best possible load out to kill Teclis would be the Sword of Strife and Dark Venom. You get 5 attacks with hatred and killing blow and you are already wounding him on 2+ anyway since he's toughness 2 and he has no armour or ward save. I know you didn't specify if he was taking the Banner of the World Dragon on this unit, but if he is make sure you don't put a magic weapon on your assassin. Instead just take an additional hand weapon, you'll have 1 less attack but your attacks will at least won't be stopped by the Banner. Putting the Cloak of Twilight on him as well could do the trick, the D3 wounds is amazing.

If you end up killing Teclis with just an Assassin and a unit of Shades or Dark Riders then you don't have to worry about his giant Phoenix Guard bunker any more. Just kite it around the board with your Dark Riders and ignore it if you can. Concentrate on killing the other stuff and win on victory points.

Alternatively you could try and take Death Magic on your Level 4 and snipe Teclis out with it. If you rolled Doom and Darkness you could try to force some panic checks on his unit at -3 leadership with some decent shooting too.

There's also Life Magic (if you're into that sort of thing), If you manage to get Dwellers Below and cast it on his Phoenix Guard not only will half of the unit die without any saves, but Teclis will disappear on a 3+ since his base strength is only 2, and that drops to 1 if he uses his staff.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 13:12
Thinking about it i'd rather go with the assassin/dark riders build and defensive magic. Hopefully the feedback scroll that I just found out about will make him quit using Teclis altogether. Btw i've seen his rules (online though) and he Does get those benefits I mentioned earlier. So as far as lords and heroes go for 1800 points...
level 2 sorceress feedback scroll, lore of death
level 2 sorceress, dispel , have no idea what lore to use (something defensive?)
Assassin, additional hand weapon
Assassin, additional hand weapon, flying carpet
Assumming this comes under the 25%, if not i'll drop a wizard level each since i also have 2 units of doomfire warlocks. Use the dispel scroll for the tempest or a devastating magic missile, if he uses 6 or more dice to cast (which is stated he can do) i'll pull out the feedback scroll and logically kill him. If i have enough points i'll add stuff to the assassin.
The assassin with flying carpet goes up next to dark riders, and a champion so I can take a challenge? The other assassin may not be necessary, but put him in with 10 shades. If I charge him in the rear can I then challenge Teclis?

Another point to make is, he's separated the phoenix guard into 2 units, 20 strong unit and a 10 man unit an inch behind it where Teclis hides. The units are flanked by a white lion chariot and 3 units of 8 silverhelms. So in terms of assassinating it's harder but at least it's easier to fight.

ItsAquila
12-05-2015, 14:19
Btw i've seen his rules (online though) and he Does get those benefits I mentioned earlier.

No, he does not.

I dont know what "online-source" you read, but know that there are a lot of fan-made wishlisting Armybooks on the net.

To sum it up:

Teclis is a Level 5 Wizard (Level 4 native + 1 Level from his Crown) who either has all High Magic Spells or one of each of the other 8 Lores (he can choose which one).
He has his pimped up dispell scroll which he can use once per battle as well as his staff which he can also use once per battle; The staff allows him to add one magic dice for this magic phase to every spell OR ignore one misscast. Doesnt matter what happens first, after that Teclis is reduced to S and T 1.

He also has a sword which is pretty good. But boni from the sword only apply to Close Combat attacks. Not spells he casts.

Honestly, I would suggest to buy the offical rules and read them. :)

Also: Alarielle is the WAY better caster compared to Teclis. Her banner and other stuff on a Unit with her is simply nuts. +8 casting on Life Magic Buffs on her unit is nothing to sneeze at.


About your new List:

Dont spend too much points on Assassins. The flying carpet isnt that great, you cant hide the assassin in a unit anymore.
And yes, you can challange him if you charge him in the rear. He would be stupid to accept though, since you cant attack him, if you are not in base contact with him.

Knifeparty
12-05-2015, 15:10
What Aquila said.

The rules you are seeing are his old rules, not the new ones. You should get the 8th Ed. High elf book and read it. Trust me, I use Teclis in my high elf army.

tactical dark elf
12-05-2015, 16:03
Yeah it must be his old rules he's using and the website I saw it on after I googled tactics for high elves.

Lord Dan
12-05-2015, 20:42
If he's running an illegal list, why not run one yourself? Say, a couple of Lv. 4's and all Brolocks?