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Grimstonefire
20-05-2015, 22:07
So my take on this as explained in the First Heretic (around page 310) is that the daemon is explaining to Argel Tal that humanity will only be strong enough to survive the threat of xenos if they see past the Emperors lie and accept the primordial truth. But then it also says that if they reject the primordial truth like the Eldar did they will be destroyed by it.

This is very confusing, so few questions. Firstly addressing the threat of Xenos:

1. Is the implication that simply knowing the nature of the warp as where souls go would unite humanity enough to survive the xenos? As that is something the Emperor could have told people?

2. Or that only by completely accepting the power of those who dominate the warp (from the chaos point of view the chaos gods) the power the chaos gods could provide would unite humanity enough to survive the xenos?

Then the contradictory bit, the rejection of the truth:

3. Obviously this is not a veiled threat at all, it’s saying worship the chaos gods or we will destroy you. So I’m confused if Argal thought as an Astartes that they would be strong enough (with or without the Emperor involved) to resist any threat? Or was he just in awe of the power they had shown?

Overall I’m just very confused at whether the truth is a promise of power to those already power hungry. Yes, knowledge is power, but from a religious point of view the immaterium exists around (and inside) everyone and everything already right, as it’s a dimension of sorts? So if I were to tell a planet “yeah, heaven and hell exist all around you in a dimension that you can’t see”, then so what? How would this actually make them stronger and at that time would it by necessity push them to chaos because the Emperor denied his divinity?

I suppose my last question is about the "word".

4. Is the "word" that the word bearers actually believe they are helping humanity by illuminating them?

Karhedron
20-05-2015, 22:34
We have the advantage of knowing that the Daemon is lying about at least part of what it is saying. It was the Eldar's surrender to their baser instincts that destroyed them, not their rejection of Chaos.

The concept of mixing truth and lies or only telling part of the truth in order to mislead is a very common daemonic trait. In one of the other books a daemon claims that they do not lie, he may be telling the truth but he is certainly not telling the whole truth.

This section of the book is essentially a seduction. Lorgar is obsessed with the idea of the truth and believes that the truth (however unpleasant) has power in its own right. The "Truth" that the daemons are pushing is that the secular, empirical universe that the Emperor is promoting is false. Lorgar seizes on this and it eventually leads him and his legion to embrace damnation (or illumination as they see it).

We know that the secular Imperium was a calculated attempt by the Emperor to diminish the power of the Chaos Gods by reducing mankind's superstitious tendencies. The irony is that the Daemon is telling the truth about that part, the Emperor has lied to Lorgar and the daemon is showing him how it really is. The fact that Chaos depends on humans believing for its continued existence is the supreme irony of the whole book. Lorgar's belief empowers the daemons and eventually leads to the Heresy, thus fulfilling his faith. If he had walked away, Chaos would have continued to whither before the light of reason.

ryng_sting
22-05-2015, 20:51
As above.

Chaos, however, does seem genuinely concerned about humanity becoming extinct at 'the claws' of an unspecified xenos race. Humanity's loss is their loss. Besides dominating humanity and the physical universe, a union between humanity and Chaos, as they see it, is the only way to defeat this race.

Just me, but that sounds like the Tyranids.

Eddie Chaos
25-05-2015, 14:51
Yeah it's possible that mankind will need the power of chaos to defend against the tyranids.

The light of the Emperor may save your soul but without demonic super powers the hive fleets will consume us anyway...

7788
25-05-2015, 14:58
As above.

Chaos, however, does seem genuinely concerned about humanity becoming extinct at 'the claws' of an unspecified xenos race. Humanity's loss is their loss. Besides dominating humanity and the physical universe, a union between humanity and Chaos, as they see it, is the only way to defeat this race.

Just me, but that sounds like the Tyranids.

Could also apply to the awakening Necrons, who seem to be fundamentally opposed to anything warp-bound. The Tyrannids seem to use warp (or warp-like) powers.

Lupe
25-05-2015, 17:52
Yeah it's possible that mankind will need the power of chaos to defend against the tyranids.

The light of the Emperor may save your soul but without demonic super powers the hive fleets will consume us anyway...

I think it's the other way around, really. I think Chaos needs the power of mankind to defend against the tyranids.

Speculation to follow

Think about it. The tyranids probably scare Chaos s***less. Here is an intergalactic race with the potential of wiping out all your sustenance races, as well as any other life in the Galaxy AND can blind you, deafen you and cut you off utterly from the real world. It's in Chaos best interest that mankind survives, or it will eventually starve and begin to die out.

So here's how The Primordial Annihilator panics at this new threat and looks for ways to ensure its own continued existence:

An Imperium of Mankind strong enough to survive the full might of the tyranids on its own. At least the 40K version of it - the mighty bull surrounded by wolves, the fortress forever under siege, having ten thousand years to build up its military might, its production capabilities, its population. This is why Chaos needs to establish.

The Emperor's Imperium (assuming the Emperor settles for ruling the Galaxy) would probably be a lot less prepared to face the Tyranids, had it achieved galactic peace. No mobilization on the scale required to defeat the early hive fleets would be possible in an Imperium that has spent ten thousand years dismantling instead of building weapons manufactories, warships, fortresses and bastions. With the first tendrils unrepelled, the Hive Fleet gathers biomass at an exponential rate, growing as it hurtles downhill until it sweeps across the entire Galaxy, leaving it scatterd with uncountable husks of barren rock. This is what Chaos seeks to prevent.

The Emperor's Imperium (assuming the Emperor does not intend to stop there) would long have swept outside the bounds of the Galaxy, slowly but dispersing the bulk of humanity further and further from each other, a possibility that could be scary either because stretching too thin could in fact accelerate contact with the tyranids, or because it places the majority of the species outside the influence of the Pantheon. These, too are yet more outcomes that Chaos needs to prevent.

So, for all intents and purposes, Chaos could actually be telling nothing but the truth as it believes it to be.


Could also apply to the awakening Necrons, who seem to be fundamentally opposed to anything warp-bound. The Tyrannids seem to use warp (or warp-like) powers.

NO, I think the threat Chaos is trying to avoid can be no other than the Tyranids.

The Necrons are still a finite number of individuals, with virtually no capacity for reproduction. The tyranids, on the other hand can substantially increase their numbers with every victory.
The Necrons also rely on technology to disrupt the Warp, rather than one single, intergalactic sentience and devices are a lot more easy to destroy than something immaterial and of a scale that cannot even be comprehended.

Eddie Chaos
25-05-2015, 18:25
Oh I agree, that's why the demons are so invested in humanity, chaos and the mortal races need each other in order to weather the oncoming tyranid storm.

7788
25-05-2015, 19:57
But the tyrranids do use the warp. The hive mind communicates psychically, and they also had the Zoanthropes (and they could be controlled through Warp means. Fabious Bile did it in one of the Blood Angels novels). Unless these are retconned, tyrranids have warp affinity, which according to lore will likely lead to warp corruption.
The lore has given just one exception of a warp dabbler who's incorruptible (so far). The emperor. And those who "partake" of his nature. That's a more serious threat. Unless tyrranid sentience is similar to the emperor's.

The Necrons however are completely alien as far as Chaos is concerned. They cannot be corrupted for some reason (other soulless constructs have been corrupted per the lore). Also they are pretty hard to kill. Unlike Chaos, which actively seeks to breach the Materium, the Necrons don't care about the Immaterium. All they have to do is seal it in. Didn't they almost succeed way back?

Lupe
25-05-2015, 20:22
But the tyrranids do use the warp. The hive mind communicates psychically, and they also had the Zoanthropes (and they could be controlled through Warp means. Fabious Bile did it in one of the Blood Angels novels). Unless these are retconned, tyrranids have warp affinity, which according to lore will likely lead to warp corruption.
The lore has given just one exception of a warp dabbler who's incorruptible (so far). The emperor. And those who "partake" of his nature. That's a more serious threat. Unless tyrranid sentience is similar to the emperor's.

The Necrons however are completely alien as far as Chaos is concerned. They cannot be corrupted for some reason (other soulless constructs have been corrupted per the lore). Also they are pretty hard to kill. Unlike Chaos, which actively seeks to breach the Materium, the Necrons don't care about the Immaterium. All they have to do is seal it in. Didn't they almost succeed way back?

Yes, the tyranids communicate psychically. No, they don't use the Warp. That's the remarkable thing about them. They do what exactly what Chaos does. They just do it differently, and in a way that not only doesn't use the Warp and can't be comprehended by Chaos, but it also manages to turn the Warp into a prison for Chaos.

As for the Necrons bit? Yes... they're constructs. No, they can't be corrupted. So why should they be special?

I think the problem with them is that they *aren't* in fact soulless. There is some sort of driving force behind every one of your average Warriors. Just not anything of the sort that feeds the Annihilator. Such as the souls of a race of blanks, for instance...

But, Lupe, wait, I hear you say... How does account for every single description of necrons being mindless constructs?

Well, what if we got it all wrong? What if it's not the soul (or life essence) that's missing, but the sentience associated with it? So, in all respects, every average Necron is in fact a blank who is prisoner inside their own metal husk, helplessly tagging along for the ride as an overruling directive forces them to uphold the will of those few Lords who still retain some degree of autonomy?

As for sealing off the Warp? Yes, the Necrons came very close to doing that. WAY BACK. When their numbers were enough to swarm the Galaxy. Before their hordes of constructs were decimated by going to war against the entire Galaxy, as well as their own pantheon. And before 60 million years of decay, cosmic catastrophes and sheer mechanical failure tore away at the precious few survivors of that Golden Age. Don't get me wrong... as far as all living beings are concerned, the Necrons are a force to be reckoned with. But a war of attrition is possible against such an enemy, because it can still be whittled down by combat. The Tyranid, on the other hand, cannot. Every casualty the living races take just serves to replenish their ranks. Hell, every casualty *THEY* take replenishes their own ranks.

Lord Damocles
25-05-2015, 20:34
Yes, the tyranids communicate psychically. No, they don't use the Warp.
Huh?

That's what the shadow in the warp is - you can't 'communicate psychically' without using the warp.

Lupe
25-05-2015, 20:50
Huh?

That's what the shadow in the warp is - you can't 'communicate psychically' without using the warp.

I don't know, dude... There are two ways to block an entire means of communication. You either take it over or disable it altogether.

The assumption I make is that, if it was a hostile takeover rather than an onslaught, Chaos would still be overwhelmed by the ac, but would at least be capable of identifying it for what it is, rather than just being frightened by it.

Razios
26-05-2015, 04:00
I don't know, dude... There are two ways to block an entire means of communication. You either take it over or disable it altogether.

The assumption I make is that, if it was a hostile takeover rather than an onslaught, Chaos would still be overwhelmed by the ac, but would at least be capable of identifying it for what it is, rather than just being frightened by it.

the shadow of the warp for what I know is the sheer presence of a hive fleet: there is so many minds they pretty much overide every other atempt to enter the warp

The reason chaos cant control the Tyranids is that there is nothing to control: each one of them is just a wild animal mutated by the hive fleet to complete one order: to kill anything and take their biomass, they dont feel joy,fear,hope or any other thing that is not hunger.

One of the reason the Orks are doing so well is because they are stupidly happy with their single focus lives and dosent have the emocional conflict that feeds chaos, well th Tyranids goes BEYOND this into the point they are just a bunch of mouths who kill things very well

Also, people miss something here: even if Lorgar wants truth, he also wants his OWN version, the one where is right and his father wrong, he inherit his tendecy of using blunt force in that fit whatever wordview they need to push, they have one truth and is theirs, anyone else will learn that soon enought

7788
26-05-2015, 15:04
The lore strongly suggests that the Hive Mind uses warp properties to communicate with the swarms. The "shadow" is described as "psionic static" (6th ed Codex). If there is a non-Warp-related psionic energy, then I certainly don't know the lore for it. Plus, Zoanthropes have been explicitly shown to use the warp. At least as of the 6th ed Tyrranid Codex, Chaos sees the Tyrranids as a competitor, not as a predator. Btw, the Necrons don't much like the Tyrranids either.

To come closer to the OP, Lorgar's motivations are not fully explained, imo. He seems to want to be a part of something bigger than himself, but why? He is a Primarch, one of only 21 unique constructs in the entire galaxy. Somebody so meticulously engineered should not be as influenced by his environment as he (and other Primarchs) seem to have been. Psychological enviromental influences & defenses against them should have been written in his programming. It is possible that something happened after he was removed from the Emperor's lab, but we don't know that. And it is implied that Kor Phaeron never really rejected the Primordial Truth, but his influence on the mature Lorgar seems disproportional. Or perhaps Lorgar is using Kor Phaeron's influence to justify his own actions. The easiest way out of all this imo, is to think of the Primarch project as an iffy proposition. Some of the subjects turned ok, others not so. GW, here's an idea for free: maybe the Emperor would have strangled some of them in their cribs, if Whoever did not whisk them out.

Eddie Chaos
26-05-2015, 15:35
Tyranids do use the warp, just in a different way to most folks.

The thing is that Tyranids don't have souls that's why they cast a shadow in the warp. By comparison a human is a candle flame in the warp and something that chaos can feed on.

Saunders
26-05-2015, 17:46
Gotta set the record straight. The Chaos gods are an elemental force of the warp. They exist as a reflection of the emotions that feed them, and care as much about the Tyranids bringing ruin to the galaxy as they care about their own actions bringing ruin to the galaxy. Chaos is ultimately a destructive force in this setting; if the Chaos gods were given free reign, they would also destroy the galaxy as we know it. They are true to their respective natures to a fault, and mortal beings viewed not as the source of their power but as playthings to be enslaved and broken. Just look at what happened to the Warhammer Fantasy world when Chaos ultimately prevailed.

Of course, part of that equation is that time has very little bearing on the Warp. For instance, Slaanesh did not exist before The Fall, yes he/she paradoxically always existed. We don't exactly know what effect it would have on the Chaos gods if the galaxy were to be stripped of life; it seems likely that they would wither away, but it's also possible that they are also drawing strength from other realities, or the past, present and future, etc.

Now, their mortal pawns are another matter entirely. They may see the threat that the Tyranids pose, and look to the power of Chaos as salvation against such a foe. They may even be capable of wielding its power against their foes. That's all well and good, but it doesn't mean Chaos itself has high stakes in this reality. The gods only want you to spread their influence and invite damnation. It's not coincidence that, for instance, the daemon primarchs all lost interest in the plane of reality not long after they ascended.


Now, about that primordial truth...

Humanity and Chaos are married. The daemon will have you believe that humanity cannot survive without Chaos, whereas the Emperor would deny Chaos and have its power forever diminished.

This is the fundamental Order vs Disorder conflict. it is hypothetically true that Chaos can be stamped out, and also that emotion and belief is empowering. Of course the daemon would argue that embracing Chaos is necessary for Humanity to save itself from an external threat. It doesn't bother to mention that Humanity would then be lost to the internal threat. The question then becomes a matter of whether or not Humanity can survive through its own efforts, which remains to be seen.


About the tyranids. They do use the warp as a medium for a means of communication and control. However, we're dealing with a completely alien galactic force operating under a hive mind mentality. To us, it's all white noise that locally disrupts anything tapping in to the warp. At the same time, Synapse creatures tap in to the hive mind in order to manifest their powers. Think of it as a square peg, round hole mentality. We are incompatible with the shadow that they cast upon the warp where ever they go.

Then again... nobody really knows anything for sure. We don't know what exactly the 'Hive Mind' is, whether its just the sheer mass of tyranid minds, a single will or consciousness driving them all, or the tyranids' own malicious warp entity enslaving them all to its own will. Either way, it's completely alien and probably something we'll never understand.

7788
26-05-2015, 18:35
They exist as a reflection of the emotions that feed them, [...] mortal beings viewed not as the source of their power

That's a contradiction. If Chaos exists because of something/somebody, they are either a parasite or codependent. Which means if the source of their existence dries up, they go down with it. Per the lore's implications, that is the main reason Chaos is interested in the materium's sentient beings.

Additionally, we have no info at all about chaos drawing strength from other realities. And the time-dilating effect in the universe seems to be strictly chronological, it doesn't affect psychological time. Beings travel back and forth in time, yet their memories (and attendant emotions) don't suffer subtractions or additions. Their sense of what happened in the past and what may happen in the future remains the same.

There are examples in the lore of soulless beings being corrupted by Chaos. But we don't really know if the Hive Mind is soulless. We know that most Tyrannids are bio-automatons.

Scammel
26-05-2015, 18:44
That's a contradiction. If Chaos exists because of something/somebody, they are either a parasite or codependent. Which means if the source of their existence dries up, they go down with it. Per the lore's implications, that is the main reason Chaos is interested in the materium's sentient beings.

˙ɯoɹʇɐן 'ʇɥǝɹǝ ʇɥıuʞıuƃ ɹɐʇıouɐן 'ƃoop soɯǝ

Saunders
26-05-2015, 18:58
That's a contradiction. If Chaos exists because of something/somebody, they are either a parasite or codependent. Which means if the source of their existence dries up, they go down with it. Per the lore's implications, that is the main reason Chaos is interested in the materium's sentient beings.

Additionally, we have no info at all about chaos drawing strength from other realities. And the time-dilating effect in the universe seems to be strictly chronological, it doesn't affect psychological time. Beings travel back and forth in time, yet their memories (and attendant emotions) don't suffer subtractions or additions. Their sense of what happened in the past and what may happen in the future remains the same.

There are examples in the lore of soulless beings being corrupted by Chaos. But we don't really know if the Hive Mind is soulless. We know that most Tyrannids are bio-automatons.

Mortal beings are the source of their power, but that is not necessarily how the Chaos gods view them. My point is that Chaos is by its very nature self-destructive, it is irrational.

Karhedron
27-05-2015, 21:56
To come closer to the OP, Lorgar's motivations are not fully explained, imo. He seems to want to be a part of something bigger than himself, but why? He is a Primarch, one of only 21 unique constructs in the entire galaxy. Somebody so meticulously engineered should not be as influenced by his environment as he (and other Primarchs) seem to have been. Psychological enviromental influences & defenses against them should have been written in his programming. It is possible that something happened after he was removed from the Emperor's lab, but we don't know that.

The Primarchs were abducted mid-gestation, who knows what the Empeor planned to add to them. It is possible that they were complete and simply immature or it is possible that fundamental qualities remained to be engineered into them. This is the simplest explanation for some of the excessive flaws some of the Primarchs display. Chaos stole them while they were incomplete, knowing that they would be far harder to destroy or corrupt if they were allowed to mature as the Emperor had planned.

There is still an awful lot unknown though. We have seen the Heresy unfold in the HH novels but we have seen only glimpses of what happened prior to Ullanor. Most of those glimpses have been flash-backs or warp-visions and thus inherently unreliable. The only novelto tell of significant events prior to Ullanor is First Heretic and that keeps its focus firmly on the Word Bearers.

There are still a great many unanswered questions about the Primarchs and the Emperor. For all the "revelations" of the HH novels, they have posed more questions than they have answered.