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ManhattanGrey
29-05-2015, 17:31
Harlequins got a new codex this year but unfortunately it seems there does not seem to be a single competitive opinion in the codex. The troupes are limited by their transport opinions and being bolter bait, they have no HQs and no good anti-vehicle opinions.

Is there a single reason for taking this army apart from fluff reasons and the attractive models? Even as Allies.

How do you feel about the new codex?

SuperHappyTime
29-05-2015, 19:11
Is there a single reason for taking this army apart from fluff reasons and the attractive models? Even as Allies.

No. But there really are no other reasons why you shouldn't be powergaming Eldar.

Dezartfox
29-05-2015, 19:33
No anti vehicle options? The jetbikes have haywire.. The void weavers have haywire and all the characters can take haywire and throw them pretty reliably. I've never had a problem with vehicles when using my full harlequin force.

Fliers. That's when they they have a problem!

MajorWesJanson
30-05-2015, 10:07
Fitting them as allies is their problem. Harlequins really need aGreat Harlequin HQ model so they can run a small Allied or CAD detachment, or a troupe detachment that is not 3 troops + 2 FA + 1 HS + 0-7 Elites.

SimaoSegunda
30-05-2015, 13:49
I tend to run 1 troupe, in a transport, a unit of two bikes with haywire and a void weaver with prismatic cannon, which is a formation allowing running and charging in the same turn. I think the actual troupe members are a little overpriced, but not insanely so. I run them as allies to my main eldar force, and they seem to do fine for me.

Moirdryd
30-05-2015, 15:12
They're great fun to play and to date my Harlequin force has messed up Skitarii, Tyranids and Chaos Space Marine forces. Lack of anti air is a thing but thus far ignoring the flyers, claiming objectives with relative ease and utterly murdering my opponents other stuff is working just fine.

Althenian Armourlost
30-05-2015, 15:54
There are ways to make them good. My favourite way is the Cegorach's jest formation:

Cegorach’s Jest
6 troupers + 6 caress - 158
Starweaver - 70
4 Skyweavers, Zephyrglaives - 240
Voidweaver, prismatic cannon - 80

I add this to craftworld Eldar, and add a telepathy farseer skyrunner to the skyweavers and hope for either invisibility or shrouding. The void weaver actually makes a good objective grabber/contestor, but don't rely on it to do any actual fighting. The harlequins can run and then charge with this formation, giving them with fleet an average charge range of around 26", and they rend like harlequins used to due to the caresses.

HopeAndDespair
30-05-2015, 19:30
As long as your not playing against necrons, eldar, or a bunch of flyers I think theyd be fine. But yeah no reason to play them other than them being super cool. Ive recently started a harlequin. A little peeved they've done away with the classic death jester and shadow seer. I dont like having multiple mono pose characters in an army.

McColgan_Nano
30-05-2015, 23:29
Their not a top tier army in any way but take those bad match ups out of the equation and their decent enough to allow you to have a fun game

Veshnakar
02-06-2015, 01:59
I just REALLY wish there was an HQ choice so an army could be build easier at below 1000 points. Even above that it's still very restrictive. And it's a damn shame because harlequins are such a cool and characterful force. I still love mine though, even if their rules aren't the best. Maybe we will get a data card for a Great Harlequin random release. I would be so happy.

Vaktathi
02-06-2015, 08:29
The new Harlequins feel a lot like the new Mechanicus factions and the MT book, something that's really like a third of a real full codex. They also seem to play a lot like Dark Eldar, amazing at dealing with powerful elite units, and atrocious at dealing with "quantity" enemies.

H3L!X
02-06-2015, 09:33
@Althenian Armourlost
Do you wrote in white? Because i can't read any word on my mobile device with a white background :/


From the Harlequin Codex i only played the cast of players.
I think the Harlequins are sooo squishy for their price. Nevertheless i love them.

Spiney Norman
02-06-2015, 11:47
Fitting them as allies is their problem. Harlequins really need aGreat Harlequin HQ model so they can run a small Allied or CAD detachment, or a troupe detachment that is not 3 troops + 2 FA + 1 HS + 0-7 Elites.

This exactly, the clunkiness of the detachments in the codex and their inability to fit into any of the standard detachment types (CAD or Allied) makes them difficult to add to my dark Eldar as an allied contingent and there are some areas where they are definitely weak on their own, they kind of missed the opportunity to pull me in by not giving them a HQ.

Eldarsif
02-06-2015, 11:59
The new Harlequins feel a lot like the new Mechanicus factions and the MT book, something that's really like a third of a real full codex. They also seem to play a lot like Dark Eldar, amazing at dealing with powerful elite units, and atrocious at dealing with "quantity" enemies.

This.

As much as I like the new armies I find it rather stupid that they are splitting the Ad Mech into two books when I feel they could have easily fleshed out a more solid book by combining the two. The Harlequin codex could have done with a more lightweight CAD so it is easier to run them as allies. A part of me feels like they don't want you to run harlequins CAD but rather just the formations.

H3L!X
02-06-2015, 12:01
I don't think they need an HQ.
But some smaller, not as restrictive formations would be good.

Something like:
Two Troupes of 5 including Troupe Master and they have to take a Starweaver.
Gives Bonus like Falochous Wing formation maybe.

I like the Cast of Players, but what annoys me is that i can't fit them in the Starweaver because i am forced to take a Deathjester and Shadowseer who i can't detach from the unit.

Hendarion
02-06-2015, 12:03
They need an HQ in order to use them as allies - technically - enforced by the main rulebook.

Vipoid
02-06-2015, 14:10
The new Harlequins feel a lot like the new Mechanicus factions and the MT book, something that's really like a third of a real full codex. They also seem to play a lot like Dark Eldar, amazing at dealing with powerful elite units, and atrocious at dealing with "quantity" enemies.

Agreed.


As much as I like the new armies I find it rather stupid that they are splitting the Ad Mech into two books when I feel they could have easily fleshed out a more solid book by combining the two.

I thought exactly the same. I even have a lot of interest in Ad mech after seeing the new book (look at that - an actual HQ choice :eek:). However, I simply have no intention of paying a 40 entrance fee to even use the damn army.


The Harlequin codex could have done with a more lightweight CAD so it is easier to run them as allies. A part of me feels like they don't want you to run harlequins CAD but rather just the formations.

What turned me off was that I dislike the jetbikes, but virtually every formation requires them. I'd basically be buying the book just to use a single formation in it. :skull:

Ambience 327
02-06-2015, 14:19
They need an HQ in order to use them as allies - technically - enforced by the main rulebook.

No. They need an HQ in order to use the Allied Detachment in the main rulebook. You can include any of their Formations or Detachments in the same army with any Formations or Detachments from other books (including the Combined Arms or Allied Detachments from the main rule book), and they will be Allies (i.e. use the rules for Battle Brothers, Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies and/or Come the Apocalypse) with those other forces.

It is a common misunderstanding, but the rules for Allies are a separate thing from the Allied Detachment, which is just a specific Detachment with slightly less requirements than a Combined Arms Detachment (i.e. 1 less Troops choice), fewer options (i.e. less Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Choices) and a restriction that it cannot be of the same Faction as your Primary Detachment.


EDIT: To clarify my above (now underlined) comment - I am saying that Harlequins will be "Allies" to any formations/detachments taken using other codex books or the rule book, and from other Factions - not implying that the Harlequins can use a Detachment that they don't meet the requirements for.

Erik_Morkai
02-06-2015, 15:02
Love them and they can fare well enough against other armies. I recently finished 3rd in a team tournament with a 1250 army of Harlies and one Aspect Host. The tournament was random pairing, I ended up with a Tyranid player.

First game versus Space Marines and Space Wolves.
It was victory points and I did not lose alot during that game. Barely 350/1250.

Second game was versus Blood Angels and Imperial Guard.
I had a rougher time but still managed to hold my own. Damn Furioso and their flamers were a problem.

Third game was versus Necrons and Grey Knights.
I nearly tabled the Necron player and I lost 1 Death Jester, 3 players, 4 Warp Spiders and 3 Hawks.

Harlies can perform very well but they require to think outside the box and do poorly at low points level without allies. At 1850-2000 a full Harlequin army can be very scary.

A 2000 point army of Harlequins, Dark Eldar and Eldar combined can be downright disgusting.

Vipoid
02-06-2015, 15:05
With regard to Dark Eldar, I find it quite annoying that all my Ld modifiers seem more about helping Harlequin allies than doing anything useful in their own book.

Hendarion
02-06-2015, 17:08
(including the Combined Arms or Allied Detachments from the main rule book)Hm? How can you take a CAD of Harlequins? The only available detachment for them is the Masque Detachment (because a CAD also needs an HQ). No? And that one is rather a lot of units you have to take. You also can't chose that many formations for Harlequins, because Solitaires are in them, but they are unique.
I'm happy if someone can correct me (or explain what Harlequins actually really may field when taken as allies), but the situation for them is quite bad imo. Standalone *and* as allies.

Dr.Clock
02-06-2015, 17:39
I threw a Cast of Players in a Raider with a Glaive Succubus last night, and it was delightful. They ended up holding the centre field for most of the game, despite losing the Succubus, Master and half the players. In the end, they accounted for a Daemon Prince (who killed the Succubus and 2 players, but was cut down in turn by the Succubus), 4 Nurgle bikes (whose fist doubled out the Master), and 4 plague marines, plus putting a wound on Typhus right before the 'cavalry' arrived (massive unit of Beasts) to finish him off, granting me slay the warlord + Kingslayer and winning me the game.

LOVE taking Sanctic against Chaos - S6 on the charge with hammerhand is hilarious, some AP2 coverage never hurts, invulnerable saves and lots of characters to frustrate challenge mechanics... all together they end up being a pretty nifty and flexible deathstar. Of course, their mere 5++ and T3 makes them a bit vulnerable, but with a WWP, getting them stuck in to multiple units to avoid being sitting ducks in the opponent's turn is pretty easy, and they have the Initiative to seriously limit attacks coming back. They will definitely be a staple when I feel like going assaulty...

I have some other Harlie units to try out, but they have the goods, I think, if you like the 'by the skin of your teeth' play style - definintely high risk/high reward, and really at its best with allies for scoring coverage and extra dakka.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Ambience 327
02-06-2015, 18:47
Hm? How can you take a CAD of Harlequins? The only available detachment for them is the Masque Detachment (because a CAD also needs an HQ). No? And that one is rather a lot of units you have to take. You also can't chose that many formations for Harlequins, because Solitaires are in them, but they are unique.
I'm happy if someone can correct me (or explain what Harlequins actually really may field when taken as allies), but the situation for them is quite bad imo. Standalone *and* as allies.

You are misreading what I wrote. I wasn't saying Harlequins can take Combined Arms or Allied Detachments - I was saying that any formation or detachment taken from any other book (and implying from other Factions) would use the Allies rules (i.e. Battle Brothers, Desperate Allies, etc). This was in response to someone saying that Harlequins can't be Allies because they can't take an Allied Detachment. I was pointing out that wasn't what being Allies meant.

When people are talking about taking Harlequins as Allies, they mean they are using one of the Formations or Detachments that Harlequins can legally field, and combining them with Formatins and/or Detachments from other Codex books or the rule book using another Faction. So a Combined Arms Detachment of Craftworld or Dark Eldar would be Allies with any Formations or Detachments of Harlequins you might take in the same army. They use the rules for Allies (in this case Battle Brothers).


Also, only Cegorach's Revenge and The Heroes' Path require a Solitaire. That leaves you four other Formations, plus their Detachment, which ALLOWS you to take one if you wish, but does not require one. Plenty to work with as far as I am concerned.

ManhattanGrey
03-06-2015, 16:19
The harlequin troup though against MEQs (and admit it 9 out of 10 players play space marines) is an inferior unit compared to say any aspect warrior or even Dark Eldar elites.

What's the point of taking them if the Harlequin troup sucks?

H3L!X
03-06-2015, 21:07
Harlequins have a special CAD that doesn't need any HQ.
It needs 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support. Optional are 7 Elite slots.

Sephillion
03-06-2015, 21:22
At the point range I play (1250-1500), there was no way to include the Harlequins I wanted to my Dark Eldar army without either taking things I did not want or making up the bulk of my army. So disappointed, the detachments and formations are severely limiting, IMO. Had there been an HQ, I’d have gladly picked an allied detachment.

Spiney Norman
03-06-2015, 21:25
With regard to Dark Eldar, I find it quite annoying that all my Ld modifiers seem more about helping Harlequin allies than doing anything useful in their own book.

Which would be slightly less annoying if you could actually take an allied detachment of harlequins, but for some reason they decided to make the three characters that really should've been HQs into elite choices instead...

Forgive me if I decline from including a formation which requires six units at a minimum and three dedicated transports as well if you want it to be anywhere near competitive.

Lord Damocles
03-06-2015, 21:54
...but for some reason they decided to make the three characters that really should've been HQs into elite choices instead...
Solitaires and Death Jesters certainly shouldn't be HQ choices, and the Shadowseer is debatable (a High Warlock/Shadowseer, maybe).


You can always take less than a formation's worth of Harlequins in an army by going unbound...

Spiney Norman
03-06-2015, 22:36
Solitaires and Death Jesters certainly shouldn't be HQ choices, and the Shadowseer is debatable (a High Warlock/Shadowseer, maybe).


You can always take less than a formation's worth of Harlequins in an army by going unbound...

I could, if I could find anyone willing to play against unbound armies...

Ambience 327
04-06-2015, 02:07
Harlequins have a special CAD that doesn't need any HQ.
It needs 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support. Optional are 7 Elite slots.

No they don't. The "CAD", or "Combined Arms Detachment", is a specific Detachment given in the main Rulebook, with specific restrictions, allowances and Command Benefits. The Harlequins have a special Detachment given in their Codex, but it is not a Combined Arms Detachment. It is called a "Masque Detachment". Don't confuse the two, especially since Harlequins cannot fulfill the requirements of the Combined Arms Detachment.

I know I'm probably coming off pedantic, but I'm really not trying to be. It is this misuse of terms that often causes people to become confused and have difficulty understanding how Detachments and Formations work in the first place.

Hendarion
04-06-2015, 05:32
Harlequins have a special CAD that doesn't need any HQ.
It needs 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support. Optional are 7 Elite slots.That's the "Masque Detachment", not the CAD. They don't have a CAD.
...
Wait, do Harlequins have Objective Secured at all? There's no detachment giving them this rule, right?

Scribe of Khorne
04-06-2015, 06:01
That's the "Masque Detachment", not the CAD. They don't have a CAD.
...
Wait, do Harlequins have Objective Secured at all? There's no detachment giving them this rule, right?

No, its over rated dramatically I find, but no, they dont get it.

Also, you are correct.

CAD = Combined Arms Detachment, it requires an HQ, for those who do not know this.