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View Full Version : Space marines, tabletop vs fluff



sunspear
29-05-2015, 21:36
I know SM are the most popular army in the game. I, unlike some, don't really mind. If that's what the majority of gamers like, then ok. Who cares? Why all the hate?
But the reason I started this topic is that I wish GW would match the storyline and fluff to the actual games played at shops all over the world.
What I mean is, we all know there are marines everywhere and we see marines vs marine battles and I think it would be cool if the fluff would advance to explain this. Maybe with the golden throne failing marine chapters are coming to odds with one another. Maybe the high lords of terra are asking the more loyal or zealous chapters against those that are less codex compliant.
I know this doesn't really matter as far as playing a game goes and that many people probably couldnt care less and just want to play. But I think it would be nice to have a "narrative" or something "official" to back it up.

Rogue
30-05-2015, 01:02
I get your point. What you read does not match what you do on the gaming table. In situations like that it is good to have a home made chapter. In that sense your home made chapter can fight my crimson fists and we can say that the home made chapter is a renegade chapter. They do exist and the next time that I get the new chapter bug it will be a home made chapter so that I can do as such.

Losing Command
30-05-2015, 03:00
Look, when there are people that have an army consisting of 3 Imperial Knights, 2 Riptides, a tau commander with markerlight drones, some necron wraiths and a bunch of grav-cannon centurions, I think there are bigger fluff violations around than there being more marines than there should :rolleyes:

WangoFett
30-05-2015, 03:14
As a csm player I do enjoy watching the empire continue to tear itself apart especially with such depravity as seeking xenos aid to conduct in fratercide.

sunspear
30-05-2015, 04:39
Losing command- I realize there may be people out there that have lists like that but I have never ran into them.
I don't mind there being a lot of marine players. It was just an idea that I thought I would post to see what others thought

murgel2006
30-05-2015, 10:53
I would like to see some significant developments in the storyline of 40k. Like advancing it even a few decades in the next SM codex.
The battles between different SM armies is no real problem, as the imperium is very prone to powergrasps and internal strife. The chapters and/or armies around become involved in those...

My problem with tabletop vs. fluff is more about the things armies can do. I.e. the difference between the fluff capabilities and the performance on the board.
Many armies do not keep what they promise. GW has done codices which perform to expectations and sadly SM has not been amongst those for some time.
I do not talk about powerful lists or great armies. I talk about having a codex where the units, each unit performs close to the promises. Eldar is a very good example. Most of the units are now viable and perform as advertised (over-the-board-exceptions excluded). I hope to see the SM on a similar quality. If GW manages that I can live with the few OTEBs they will have.

In all. Fluff violations as a basis for games are rare, one can almost always come up with a reason to fight. (From "Its a manouver and they fight a simulated battle" to "the units have been declared contaminated by chaos and are now hunted")
Fluff violations in list are much more of a concern to me. Marines lists with no tacticals are very comon and should really not be. But being fluffy is always a matter of personal opinion.

Spiney Norman
30-05-2015, 11:56
Marines vs marines? > wargames

Alternatively ally an inquisitor to one or both factions and claim you are 'investigating the other chapter for signs of heresy'

Alternatively just make one of the two chapters Spacewolves, nasty mutant heretics

Flipmode
30-05-2015, 12:20
Locally we play to match the fluff. No more than 1 marine per world in the galaxy on average, so they can only be used once per 278 games (the spreadsheet to work out that caused a LOT of arguments)

mikesmight123
30-05-2015, 12:22
I've never played against straight up vanilla marines, weird...

Freman Bloodglaive
30-05-2015, 12:43
Locally we play to match the fluff. No more than 1 marine per world in the galaxy on average, so they can only be used once per 278 games (the spreadsheet to work out that caused a LOT of arguments)

Well played sir, well played.

Beppo1234
30-05-2015, 13:10
it's up to the players to justify the fluff behind their battles, not GW to redesign the whole universe.

mikesmight123
30-05-2015, 17:00
Aaah yes, the grey knights ever in their vigilant state of being unbalanced think the ultramarines are summoning daemons to aid them against the tyranid invasion that didn't occur due to no tyranid player.
Gotta love that fluff.

insectum7
30-05-2015, 18:11
My problem with tabletop vs. fluff is more about the things armies can do. I.e. the difference between the fluff capabilities and the performance on the board.
Many armies do not keep what they promise. GW has done codices which perform to expectations and sadly SM has not been amongst those for some time.
I do not talk about powerful lists or great armies. I talk about having a codex where the units, each unit performs close to the promises. Eldar is a very good example. Most of the units are now viable and perform as advertised (over-the-board-exceptions excluded). I hope to see the SM on a similar quality. If GW manages that I can live with the few OTEBs they will have.


I think that's where the last couple codexes have been really nice. Daemonkin, Necrons and Eldar have gotten some great rules that synergize with army character. I'm really interested in what they do for the Marines.

mikesmight123
30-05-2015, 18:47
I think that's where the last couple codexes have been really nice. Daemonkin, Necrons and Eldar have gotten some great rules that synergize with army character. I'm really interested in what they do for the Marines.


Just got some info from my friend, bolters are now s7ap2, all marines now have a grenade called "we shall know no fear" its a large blast strength D but on the downside only one marine can take it. Its got a range of 14".

Centurions now fire vortex missiles.

Voss
30-05-2015, 18:59
it's up to the players to justify the fluff behind their battles, not GW to redesign the whole universe.
No it isn't. All players need to do is show up and have a game.

Background dissonance is completely up to the company, especially given how little the tabletop matches the background. Not just the constant marine on marine action, but the effectiveness of weapons, coherence, relative abilities and anything else. They're effectively unrelated objects.

Inquisitor Kallus
30-05-2015, 19:06
it's up to the players to justify the fluff behind their battles, not GW to redesign the whole universe.

Indeed, well said

T10
30-05-2015, 20:42
Yet, GW has gone out of its way to match (most of) the armies up against each other.

If you need Space Marine vs. Space Marine justification, the timeline offers the Terra Nova Interregnum. There's not much official fluff on this period, but basically the Imperium is split by what appears to be an administrative schism. One might imagine a Space Marine chapter take directions from the High Lords or the new Ur-Council, or both, leaving politics to the politicians, and thus occaisonally clashing when these administrative bodies' interests come into conflict. In the WH40k universe, even Space Marines will follow orders blindly. It could even go so far as seeing different companies of the same chapter coming to blows as their respective commanders refusse to back down and perhaps indulge in some unresolved rivalry issues...

Beppo1234
31-05-2015, 04:57
No it isn't. All players need to do is show up and have a game.

Background dissonance is completely up to the company, especially given how little the tabletop matches the background. Not just the constant marine on marine action, but the effectiveness of weapons, coherence, relative abilities and anything else. They're effectively unrelated objects.

all fluff is written like it was passed down as an oral history over generations, and the stories have been embellished to epic proportions. This has always been the case with 40k fluff. The fluff is not literal or scientifically accurate... it is fluff.

if marines are fighting marines, and the players want an irrelevant story to fluff the contest up, then again it is up to them to come up with their own fluff narrative to allow the battle to make sense via fluff. The fluff has also provided numerous explanations for conflicts like this. Here are some simple/obvious ones: (DAs: another marine chapter has stumbled upon the Fallen secrect, BA/SW: genetic flaws have become unacceptable and need to be exterminated, UM: because they are blue). Come up with your own excuses for battle, you don't need to be spoon fed.

Losing Command
31-05-2015, 05:18
If you really need a good explanation for marines vs marines, one side are actually Alpha Legion marines posing as different marines trying to spread confusion (whether the other side has found out is optional) This already happenend during the Horus Heresy, with Apha Legion infiltrating the Ravenguard ... but I should not spoil it ;)

murgel2006
31-05-2015, 10:23
Just got some info from my friend, bolters are now s7ap2, all marines now have a grenade called "we shall know no fear" its a large blast strength D but on the downside only one marine can take it. Its got a range of 14".

Centurions now fire vortex missiles.

Well a heavy bolter with 1-2 S7AP2 shots as an alternate fire mode would hardly be a gamebreaker and my marines would profit as the HB is their standard in the tac squad. :angel:

Besides that insectum7's statement was an opinion of personal nature and easily recognized as such. Your comment does feel unwarranted.

mikesmight123
31-05-2015, 17:46
Well a heavy bolter with 1-2 S7AP2 shots as an alternate fire mode would hardly be a gamebreaker and my marines would profit as the HB is their standard in the tac squad. :angel:

Besides that insectum7's statement was an opinion of personal nature and easily recognized as such. Your comment does feel unwarranted.


Ouch that hurt :(

Azazyll
31-05-2015, 19:59
The Badab War was invented near the beginning of the 40k game to answer exactly this question. The FW books expanded brilliantly on the core idea and produced dozens of reasons for chapters to fight each other while remaining Imperial.

As to the "We only play the correct proportion of SM battles", first it's nonsense, SM were designed and equipped to fight more often and redeploy more rapidly than any other force in the lore, and are usually based closer to more dangerous areas. Second, do you really want to make your fun laser gun toy game "more realistic?" You've chosen a bizarre place to fall on your sword for the sake of believability.

murgel2006
31-05-2015, 21:22
Ouch that hurt :(

Sorry, that was not my intent.

mikesmight123
31-05-2015, 21:40
Sorry, that was not my intent.


Its alright :)

Spider-pope
31-05-2015, 22:43
I know SM are the most popular army in the game. I, unlike some, don't really mind. If that's what the majority of gamers like, then ok. Who cares? Why all the hate?
But the reason I started this topic is that I wish GW would match the storyline and fluff to the actual games played at shops all over the world.
What I mean is, we all know there are marines everywhere and we see marines vs marine battles and I think it would be cool if the fluff would advance to explain this. Maybe with the golden throne failing marine chapters are coming to odds with one another. Maybe the high lords of terra are asking the more loyal or zealous chapters against those that are less codex compliant.
I know this doesn't really matter as far as playing a game goes and that many people probably couldnt care less and just want to play. But I think it would be nice to have a "narrative" or something "official" to back it up.

Official is only as official as you want it to be. If your local group is full of Space Marine on Space Marine violence, then take the plunge and create your own fluff as a group to justify it. Make up a new civil war, a new schism between chapters. The fluff is full of situations where Chapters haven't gotten on and even broken out into full on war, so add to it.

There's also the fact that not everyone has the same gaming group and army make up. While you have plenty of Astartes friction, some groups have mostly Eldar players. Should GW change the fluff so the pointy eared hippies are on the rise again?