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MadDokta
04-06-2015, 16:18
Hey y'all. I was just trawling through the new Cult Mechanicus codex and found this every interesting snippet of info. Frankly I'm surprised no one's posted about it yet since it may hint at an actual advance in the 40K timeline, or at least it's a massive tease. Unless this piece of background has been around before, in which case I apologise:


986999.M41
DESPERATE MEASURES: The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequin Troupes and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck.

Theocracity
04-06-2015, 16:39
Neat. It reads more to me like a campaign or army building hook than a macro-level story development, but it's still neat to see.

inq.serge
04-06-2015, 18:27
Well if there are any who could save the emperor and his throne and the Imperium, it's Rakarth īnī Vect. (And they have lots to gain and nothing to loose from helping the Imperium.)

Rogue Star
04-06-2015, 18:34
Well the Golden Throne is a device that keeps the Emperor alive by draining the souls from psykers. If there was any group which would understand soul-harnessing technology, it would be the Dark Eldar...

Horus38
04-06-2015, 18:41
It should be noted that the Exhubris Portal appears earlier in the books timeline. It's on a leech filled swamp world and is defended by an Ulthwe warhost against the Mechanicus but they are eventually overwhelmed.

librerian_samae
04-06-2015, 20:56
"In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh"

Seems to me to be hinting at pacts made with either the Haemonculus covens (more likely) or maybe even The Mandrakes (far less likely to be fair), rather than Vect and mainstream kabalite interests.

What do others think, on the sly negotiations or outright supplication to Vect and the dark eldar as a whole?

Spider-pope
04-06-2015, 21:27
Well the Golden Throne is a device that keeps the Emperor alive by draining the souls from psykers. If there was any group which would understand soul-harnessing technology, it would be the Dark Eldar...

Or they want to have a chat about how you regrow a body from a finger, then stick the owners soul inside it. It's unlikely that the Mechanicus know about the Emperor being a perpetual.

jareddm3
04-06-2015, 22:24
Or they want to have a chat about how you regrow a body from a finger, then stick the owners soul inside it. It's unlikely that the Mechanicus know about the Emperor being a perpetual. A status that is not confirmed to be true post-heresy.

nagash66
05-06-2015, 08:39
Interesting, moves it ever so slightly forwards ( well not really more expands on what is going on) in a fun direction, but ambiguous enough so it may pan out to be nothing more then a fun little side story.

Spider-pope
05-06-2015, 08:48
A status that is not confirmed to be true post-heresy.

Actually it is. It's been part of the background since Inquisitor was released, that the Emperor would return to life if they just let him die. The founding members of the Inquisition decided against it since it could lead to even more civil strife, and have kept the secret since.
All the Horus Heresy books did is give that ability a name and reveal there were others like him.

nagash66
05-06-2015, 09:00
Actually it is. It's been part of the background since Inquisitor was released, that the Emperor would return to life if they just let him die. The founding members of the Inquisition decided against it since it could lead to even more civil strife, and have kept the secret since.
All the Horus Heresy books did is give that ability a name and reveal there were others like him.

Yeah that was some great background for the I game.

AndrewGPaul
05-06-2015, 09:05
Actually it is. It's been part of the background since Inquisitor was released, that the Emperor would return to life if they just let him die.

Well, that was one possibility; I don't recall a source stating whether it was objectively true or not.

Karhedron
05-06-2015, 10:16
Indeed, the subject of what happens when the Emperor dies is unclear. He may regenerate/reincarnate. He may awaken in the warp as the Starchild, a fully fledged Warp Entity.

Or he may just die and whatever is left of his soul winds up as snack-a-jacks for the Big 4. :eek:

Gazak Blacktoof
05-06-2015, 17:50
I assume the exhubris portal is a webway gate? Perhaps like the ones the necrons use to gain access. It have significant value if it is accessible to other races and yet the eldar haven't destroyed it.

Karhedron
05-06-2015, 20:42
I don't think the Eldar have the resources to patrol the webway anymore. There are plenty of Necron Dolmen gates still around that I am sure the Eldar would like to destroy if they could find them all.

Xisor
06-06-2015, 18:31
First up: Spot on, MadDokta, this is absolutely the kind of exciting and interesting thing that everyone should talk about!

Re: The Inquisitor stuff about the Emperor's resurrection (interesting that it's Xanthites not Thorians...), it's always handy to go back to the source. ;)



A single candle guttered on an ornate silver
stick in the centre of the room, throwing a
yellowish, fitful light over the faces of the
cowled figures stood in the dusty chamber.

“The Golden Throne works,” one said, his
voice aged and cracked. “The Emperor’s life
can be sustained indefinitely.”

“His soul lives on?” another inquired, his
long, sharp nose protruding from under the
lip of his hood. “It is not an empty husk?”

“It is not,” the first confirmed. “The
Emperor has ascended to the next plane,
but the link ’twixt body and spirit remains
strong.”

“Then it can be brought back,” suggested
the third, a young woman whose flowing
white hair spilled from her hood and down
to her waist. “The Emperor need not suffer
this hideous eternal life in death.”

“We cannot risk such a thing!” the first
hissed. “What if the spiritual link were
severed? What if the person brought back
was not the man we once knew? Changed?
News of the Emperor’s… ascension is
already widespread. He is being revered as
a god already on a hundred worlds. In this
time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The
Emperor has shown us the way. Anyway,
who would believe the Emperor had
returned so soon? It will cause a civil war
more devastating than that of the fool
Horus, and even now we have yet to start
counting the cost of that. No, better that
this knowledge remains hidden. When we
pass on to join the Emperor, it will die with
us.”

“You cannot deny Mankind the Emperor,” a
fourth voice, deep and slow, stated firmly.

“He and the empire he has built are
Mankind’s only chance of survival.”

The woman and the deep-voiced man both
withdrew into the shadows and a moment
later the door creaked open, a chill draught
causing the candle flame to flit wildly.

“Moriana, Promeus, wait!” the first man
called out, but the door slammed shut in
answer.

“We cannot let them do this,” the hawknosed
man decided.

“No, we cannot,” the first agreed. “We must
act quickly, get organised and claim the
initiative.”

“It shall be done,” the other concurred.

ryng_sting
06-06-2015, 22:35
That quote doesn't support the claim frequently made for it - namely, switch off the machine and hey presto! the Emperor regenerates. It simply says his soul hasn't fully departed his body, and the Golden Throne can keep him that way indefinitely. Not news. The Inquisitors believe they can fully restore his soul to his body, but that belief is purely speculative. Nor does it refer to him regenerating his broken physical shell.

It's worth noting that in the HH artbooks, the Emperor actually says his body will never heal, and orders his followers to plug him back into the Golden Throne.

Born Again
07-06-2015, 01:14
This is really cool. Given that the Golden Throne seems to be on its last legs, they plan to possibly regrow the Emperor like the haemonculi do to dark eldar. Only question, what sort of price would they have to pay for that? I guess it's in the DE's interest in a way to keep the Imperium going, as it's essentially their biggest farm, but how much of it was willingly handed over...

inq.serge
07-06-2015, 01:17
Maybe some marine champions and other oddities for their collections and arenas?

Remember that, unlike other factions, DE aren't trying to win (or survive or gain anything), they already won, and are the winners of the 41st millenia.

Razios
07-06-2015, 06:32
Remember that, unlike other factions, DE aren't trying to win (or survive or gain anything), they already won, and are the winners of the 41st millenia.

THEY thing they won, but with their soul right in the hand of who she thrist their arent winner by any lenght, they are losser who try to have the best of the situation

ryng_sting
07-06-2015, 10:47
Remember that, unlike other factions, DE aren't trying to win (or survive or gain anything), they already won, and are the winners of the 41st millenia.

If they're not trying to survive, they wouldn't need their constant slave raids. And, with Khaine's Gate about to open, life in Commorragh is about to get a whole lot worse.

Poncho160
07-06-2015, 11:46
If they're not trying to survive, they wouldn't need their constant slave raids. And, with Khaine's Gate about to open, life in Commorragh is about to get a whole lot worse.

Not read the 7th edition DE book (due to GWs price rises), so had to read up on this.

Sounds proper cool :) Something big and nasty is coming to Commorragh!

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khaine's_Gate

Konrad von Carstein
07-06-2015, 16:46
Sounds proper cool :) Something big and nasty is coming to Commorragh!

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khaine's_Gate

I hope so. They deserve it. Feel bad for their prisoners though...

Romanov77
07-06-2015, 18:56
Actually, I'd rather see Comorragh stomped by the Imperium.
I simply loved that piece of fluff describing the Salamanders incident.

Anyway, this new affair shows that the Imperium actually knows how to reach the Dark City.
The whole thing would have been perfect to smuggle some nasty stuff into the city...the Life Eater, daemons...you name it.

inq.serge
07-06-2015, 19:50
Why destroy Commorragh; The Emperors only hope?

nagash66
07-06-2015, 19:55
Why destroy Commorragh; The Emperors only hope?

The Emperor needs no Xenos help, let the throne fail and he will rise!

Konrad von Carstein
07-06-2015, 20:02
The Emperor needs no Xenos help, let the throne fail and he will rise!

He will rise and destroy the Imperium by himself.

Romanov77
07-06-2015, 21:49
I suppose the Imperium knew the location of the city well before this Golden Throne failure thing.

If they really made pacts with the Kabalites, that could be an insurance policy.
You help us keeping the Emperor alive and we might ignore some of your raids on some fringe worlds AND we might even avoid leading a huge slaneshi host right to your nice city.

7788
08-06-2015, 18:39
Where in the lore is it mentioned as a fact that the Emperor needs the sacrifice of psykers to stay "alive"? (He is no more alive than anyone in a coma who needs to be constantly plugged to life-support machinery).
The psykers are used up as a source of power so that the Emperor can direct the Astronomican, afaik. What keeps the Emperor "alive" is the Golden Throne mechanism.

ryng_sting
08-06-2015, 19:42
It's been in the background book for the past few editions - and the current one specifically states how the GT needs many, many more psykers than it used to.

To the point where the Adeptus Terra is starting to worry, in fact.

Xisor
08-06-2015, 20:18
7788's point is worth inspecting in the text though - have we accidentally conflated two different details? How much is going to the Astronomican, how much is going to the Emperor, how much is being sacrificed by overzealous cargo cultists panicking? Is much actually stated in the various texts on the matter. It's an intriguing thing.

Like the little details - of how the Akashic Reader in Mechanicum ends up consuming the essence/souls of a thousand psykers to 'boost' the power of the one psyker sitting on it. Also how it's a giant, highly engineered golden chair....

Or the other detail in Mechanicum that explicitly mentioned that thing at the end being like a shard, a sliver of a god. Long before the shards thing made it into the Codex. ;)

Details, my dears, details!

7788
08-06-2015, 20:51
Indeed. And ofcourse we have the blurb in practically every BL WH40K book (the preamble "Warhammer 40,000") about how the emperor is


"the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die."

But (from memory) in other official sources is indicated that these psykers actually end up in the Chamber of the Astronomican, ie they don't have anything to do with preserving the emperor's comatose state.

Formerly Wu
09-06-2015, 03:43
Worth noting that this is a Xanthite (i.e., Radical faction of the Inquisition) expedition, and one of many launched. Ascribing their goals/knowledge with the Imperium as a whole is a stretch. Not even the rest of the Inquisition would know about or agree to this- hell, not even many other Radical factions would.

Thanks for the link to the Khaine's Gate story. That was refreshingly vivid and engagingly written for modern GW fluff. I'm not usually a fan of the "setting-disrupting ticking time bomb" trope, but this one works.

Nihilus66
09-06-2015, 08:41
The Khaines gate story is very cool and has a heap of potential to be something awesome, but will GW ever let something this big actually happen? How many codexes, for how many years have they stated that the 13th Black Crusade is beginning and yet.....

OuroborosTriumphant
09-06-2015, 09:45
Worth noting that this is a Xanthite (i.e., Radical faction of the Inquisition) expedition, and one of many launched. Ascribing their goals/knowledge with the Imperium as a whole is a stretch. Not even the rest of the Inquisition would know about or agree to this- hell, not even many other Radical factions would.

Thanks for the link to the Khaine's Gate story. That was refreshingly vivid and engagingly written for modern GW fluff. I'm not usually a fan of the "setting-disrupting ticking time bomb" trope, but this one works.

It's also only one of a dozen contingency expeditions. Other factions of the Mechanicus and Inquisition will likely be looking for their own, less radical, solutions.

Not should also be taken of when this happens; it's something like 5 days from the end of the 41st millenium and about 4 days before Abaddon's arrival at Cadia. It is something that occurs just before the clock stops.

7788
09-06-2015, 13:41
It is more likely that the passage quoted by the OP is there to reinforce the "1-minute-to-midnight" vibe of the current setting. I wonder how the Ciaphas Cain books are going to fit in this, as they are based on in-universe "sources" created in M42. And there's also the Inquisitor Czevak (spell?) stories, most of whom are implied to be taking place in early M42.

The entire Golden Throne/Emperor's fate thing is pretty obscure. I don't think GW has decided which way to go with this yet. AFAIK, the following is still valid:

A device (possibly from the DAoT era, or of ancient xenos design) is said to have been discovered by the emperor buried in an Asian desert, before Unification
The emperor, it is also said, used the device as the core of the throne, after unification probably
It is said that the throne mechanism took centuries to build, and it was still unfinished by the time Magnus dropped in and started breaking stuff
Similar lore sources claim that the throne included an interdimensional portal, and was also some sort of psychic focal point
Also stated: specialists of the Mechanicum were involved. These specialists are scarce in 40K: "Magi Ethericus" (spel?) and "Artisans Empyr"
Another lore tidbit: when the emperor was put up there, a special stasis field was activated. Enviromentally isolated, he was then able to be kept in a coma for 10000+ years thanks to the Throne's life-preserving mechanisms.
Lore sez: while up there, he's a veggie, but somehow manages to still direct the Astronomican. But he needs the sacrificial psykers to power it.
It is also rumoured that he is active in the Immaterium (as always) in some capacity or other. Perhaps he is keeping the portal shut, perhaps he's doing other stuff, nobody knows.
Now the throne is failing, or the Mechanicus thinks it is failing.
Another lore bit: wraithbone and/or the Webway "environment" have restorative abilities

Theocracity
09-06-2015, 15:00
Not should also be taken of when this happens; it's something like 5 days from the end of the 41st millenium and about 4 days before Abaddon's arrival at Cadia. It is something that occurs just before the clock stops.

I'm now imagining a 40k Twilight Zone episode where the radical Magos risks everything to learn the secret for fixing the Golden Throne, only to lose it by being present in Commoragh for the opening of Khaine's Gate.

"It's not fair....it's not fair!"

flota
14-06-2015, 14:10
The Imperium knowing how to locate the dark city, I find that funny, could it be possible that in some place they got the info on how to get to the black library? That would make ahriman plots pointless and funny

inq.serge
14-06-2015, 17:52
The Imperium knowing how to locate the dark city, I find that funny, could it be possible that in some place they got the info on how to get to the black library? That would make ahriman plots pointless and funny

Imperium as a whole, no, it can't nor hasn't, the locations of nor maps to either, but individual inquisitors and their warbands have.

Bronislaw Czevak was invited to the Black Library, while Jaq Draco just barged in.

Karhedron
15-06-2015, 10:45
True but Draco ended up dead (suicide by Space Marine) so I doubt he told anyone. Mind you, he did create a map showing the location of the Black Library within the webway. Not sure what happened to it but it might have found its way back to the Imperial Fists eventually (assuming Lex managed to find a way to rejoin his Chapter).

lordbong13
15-06-2015, 10:52
What if he knew he would come back after death ok but that he would lose the power he took / stole / borrowed from the chaos gods ? Making himself weaker and them stronger ?.

If he couldn't power the astronomican or the gods could snuff it out it wouldn't bode well with out his webway project to fall back on

Karhedron
15-06-2015, 12:10
What if he knew he would come back after death ok but that he would lose the power he took / stole / borrowed from the chaos gods ? Making himself weaker and them stronger ?.

If he couldn't power the astronomican or the gods could snuff it out it wouldn't bode well with out his webway project to fall back on

Interesting thought. The nature of the stolen power and the use he put it to have yet to be properly revealed. At one point the HH novels seemed to be hinting he used the power to create the Primarchs. Perhaps he simply used it to make himself more awesome, Horus clearly believes he would not be able to face his father directly without the same sort of power-up.

7788
15-06-2015, 15:04
What if he knew he would come back after death ok but that he would lose the power he took / stole / borrowed from the chaos gods ? Making himself weaker and them stronger ?.

If he couldn't power the astronomican or the gods could snuff it out it wouldn't bode well with out his webway project to fall back on

Good grief! What if GW was writing the lore instead of you? In GW's lore, none of the above are clear-cut. It is not unambiguously stated that he can "come back". It is not unambiguously stated that he had anything to do with the chaos gods. It is not clear exactly what he is doing with the astronomican. It is not clear what he was going to do in the webway. Instead, we have "hints", "rumors", "recollections", characters written in with ulterior motives, etc. etc.
This ambiguity is fun when there is a reasonable expectation of a resolution in the not-too-distant future. But here you can make the case that the owners/developers of the lore do not want to clear the ambiguities, not completely at least. To GW, clearing the lore without taking into account other parts of the business is like putting the cart before the horse. So important items of the setting stay unclear. If you have been following the lore for a while, this stops being fun. Instead, you end up with the same questions/items of discussion/threads popping up again and again.

totgeboren
15-06-2015, 16:42
Good grief! What if GW was writing the lore instead of you? In GW's lore, none of the above are clear-cut. It is not unambiguously stated that he can "come back". It is not unambiguously stated that he had anything to do with the chaos gods. It is not clear exactly what he is doing with the astronomican. It is not clear what he was going to do in the webway. Instead, we have "hints", "rumors", "recollections", characters written in with ulterior motives, etc. etc.
This ambiguity is fun when there is a reasonable expectation of a resolution in the not-too-distant future. But here you can make the case that the owners/developers of the lore do not want to clear the ambiguities, not completely at least. To GW, clearing the lore without taking into account other parts of the business is like putting the cart before the horse. So important items of the setting stay unclear. If you have been following the lore for a while, this stops being fun. Instead, you end up with the same questions/items of discussion/threads popping up again and again.

Dude, seriously, stop jumping on people just because they want to engage in some what-if line of thinking.

lordbong started his sentence with "What if", meaning he is fully aware of the fact that GW have not presented a clear-cut mechanism for what would happen if they unplugged the Emperor. And since GW have not explained this, it could well be that he (the Emperor) would rather stay on the Golden Throne than die and be reborn (if he even would be reborn that is), because that would weaken him or strengthen the Chaos Gods or both.

For a long time, GW did not want to clear up ambiguities, the entire point of many strange references was for them to be mysterious. The entire Horus Heresy was purposely kept vague, like the two missing legions are still kept as a mystery.

Sometimes someone at GW gets an idea based on these vague background hints, and so expands on them. Other times they are just kept as hints for something no one has figured out yet. Like the C'tan Phase Sword. I remember reading that no one had given the "C'tan" any though when the Calidus weapon was named (it was just a rewrite of the name Satan), but later when they worked on the Necrons it was a nice fit that was easily worked into the background. Most hints don't have what they are hinting at formulated yet.

I don't think anyone at GW has decided on what would happen if/when the Golden Throne breaks. It's still in the 'anything goes' category of background, so "what if" thinking seems quite appropriate. Except if it involves My Little Ponies or Furries I guess. :p

7788
15-06-2015, 21:30
Dude, seriously, stop jumping on people just because they want to engage in some what-if line of thinking.

lordbong started his sentence with "What if", meaning he is fully aware of the fact that GW have not presented a clear-cut mechanism for what would happen if they unplugged the Emperor. And since GW have not explained this, it could well be that he (the Emperor) would rather stay on the Golden Throne than die and be reborn (if he even would be reborn that is), because that would weaken him or strengthen the Chaos Gods or both.

For a long time, GW did not want to clear up ambiguities, the entire point of many strange references was for them to be mysterious. The entire Horus Heresy was purposely kept vague, like the two missing legions are still kept as a mystery.

Sometimes someone at GW gets an idea based on these vague background hints, and so expands on them. Other times they are just kept as hints for something no one has figured out yet. Like the C'tan Phase Sword. I remember reading that no one had given the "C'tan" any though when the Calidus weapon was named (it was just a rewrite of the name Satan), but later when they worked on the Necrons it was a nice fit that was easily worked into the background. Most hints don't have what they are hinting at formulated yet.

I don't think anyone at GW has decided on what would happen if/when the Golden Throne breaks. It's still in the 'anything goes' category of background, so "what if" thinking seems quite appropriate. Except if it involves My Little Ponies or Furries I guess. :p

"What-if thinking" is appropriate in a fan-fiction forum or when making up game scenarios with your buddies. But this is the forum for background. Only one entity writes that, and their take is what I want to discuss. In this forum, I definitely don't want to know what anybody else thinks the emperor's in-universe actions might be. It is pointless: the emperor character will act the way GW says (or does not say), and for reasons that may have very little to do with how we perceive the universe. But I would like to know how people think GW will decide to develop the emperor, and why, or whether you think they will develop him at all (and why). And I would like to know your opinion about why GW presents the background the way they do, or why do you think they concentrate in certain areas and not others. Or what you think about how the whole thing fits together (if it does). Of course, if you know what GW is thinking regarding the background, that's even better, that's a ready-made discussion. If you don't know, then your considered opinion about how GW will handle the background is appropriate. But another fan-made storyline? This is not an in-universe forum, it is an about-the-universe forum. That can't be a very hard distinction.

totgeboren
16-06-2015, 12:04
"What-if thinking" is appropriate in a fan-fiction forum or when making up game scenarios with your buddies. But this is the forum for background. Only one entity writes that, and their take is what I want to discuss. In this forum, I definitely don't want to know what anybody else thinks the emperor's in-universe actions might be. It is pointless: the emperor character will act the way GW says (or does not say), and for reasons that may have very little to do with how we perceive the universe. But I would like to know how people think GW will decide to develop the emperor, and why, or whether you think they will develop him at all (and why). And I would like to know your opinion about why GW presents the background the way they do, or why do you think they concentrate in certain areas and not others. Or what you think about how the whole thing fits together (if it does). Of course, if you know what GW is thinking regarding the background, that's even better, that's a ready-made discussion. If you don't know, then your considered opinion about how GW will handle the background is appropriate. But another fan-made storyline? This is not an in-universe forum, it is an about-the-universe forum. That can't be a very hard distinction.

So lets take the idea from lordbong and rephrase the first part of the post.

Instead of "What if he knew he would come back after death...
lets say "What if GW decided that he (the Emperor) would come back after death..."

That's the difference in sentence we are talking about, and most of the time (my personal guess would be something over 90%) when someone makes a statement like lordbong did, they do not intend it as a factual statement about how they see the canon of the background, rather it is a statement that they see enough ambiguity in the established background that GW could possibly go with something like whatever idea the poster just presented.

And in this topic, 'what happens when the emperor dies', I'm 99% certain GW have not set in stone what would happen when the Emperor dies. So all we can discuss is theories that keep within the goalposts which are the hints GW have given us.
If the Emperor would be reborn, one has to ask why he was so adamant on being put on the Golden throne in the first place? One theory that could explain that is that the power he has stolen from the Chaos Gods is tied to his current physical husk, and were his spirit to leave his physical form, that power would be returned (this is assuming he has stolen power from them in the first place, an idea I think came from visions granted by a daemon to persuade Horus that the big E was not just and so on).
But if true, then if the Emperor dies, humanity would stand without the Emperor at the same time as the Chaos gods surged in power, which would explain why he is still on the Golden Throne if he would be reborn. Maybe humanity would not survive long enough for the Emperor to be able to retake control?

Something I have been wondering about is how you all think the Emperor, the Astronomicon and the Golden Throne are tied together?
As i understood it, the idea was for Magnus to sit upon the Golden Throne and control the Astronomicon, but I don't think the Emperor intended Magnus to be the fuel for the Astronomicon. Therefore the fuel would need to come from somewhere else, and I think that's where the 1,000 psychers a day come in. I think they are what produces the beacon, which would mean the Emperor is not in a fact a super-hungry half-god-vampire, he just operates the beacon from the golden throne.

Or? The background sort of present the idea that the Emperor eats lots of psychers per day, and the beacon is simply produced by some esoteric means. There is no correlation between him needing to eat psychers and the beacon shining, which to me makes less sense, though it is definitely more grimdark.

Russell's teapot
16-06-2015, 14:13
What if neither the Emperor nor the Astronomicon require 1,000 psychers a day? It could run on the raw power of Chaos being funnelled through the Alpha psycher by the throne machinery. The psychers could be a mistake, misinterpretation, or a hilarious practical joke by Tzeench.

7788
16-06-2015, 18:13
What if neither the Emperor nor the Astronomicon require 1,000 psychers a day? It could run on the raw power of Chaos being funnelled through the Alpha psycher by the throne machinery. The psychers could be a mistake, misinterpretation, or a hilarious practical joke by Tzeench.


...and moving right along,

Col. Tartleton
16-06-2015, 22:21
The Khaines gate story is very cool and has a heap of potential to be something awesome, but will GW ever let something this big actually happen? How many codexes, for how many years have they stated that the 13th Black Crusade is beginning and yet.....

There are rumors that 40k might see a timeline update similar to fantasy at some point in the future.

Major Richard Sharpe
16-06-2015, 23:46
What if neither the Emperor nor the Astronomicon require 1,000 psychers a day? It could run on the raw power of Chaos being funnelled through the Alpha psycher by the throne machinery. The psychers could be a mistake, misinterpretation, or a hilarious practical joke by Tzeench.

Well, Psykers are selected like a 'tax' from all imperial worlds, but I doubt they will halt tax collection just because they don't need the sacrifices. Besides, they are supposedly all destined for Terra via the League of Blackships, halting the practise of killing 1000 Psykers per day would simply mean 1000 more psykers for the Scholastia Psykana.

7788
17-06-2015, 00:53
I honestly hate to be parsing other people's words, some may be justifiably insulted because it can look like I'm fishing for faults. But that's not the case. Unfortunately I do have to highlight your words in order to explain.


So lets take the idea from lordbong and rephrase the first part of the post.

Instead of "What if he knew he would come back after death...
lets say "What if GW decided that he (the Emperor) would come back after death..."

Perhaps you did not understand what I am saying here. Your rephrasing does not change the meaning. Any discussion on "what-if" will be speculation, and therefore unrelated to the background as it exists.


That's the difference in sentence we are talking about, and most of the time (my personal guess would be something over 90%) when someone makes a statement like lordbong did, they do not intend it as a factual statement about how they see the canon of the background, rather it is a statement that they see enough ambiguity in the established background that GW could possibly go with something like whatever idea the poster just presented.

Fine, but if that is the case you have to offer some rationale about why GW would introduce ambiguity in the background (they do), or why they would let it arise (it does). It cannot be just another in-universe explanation, because GW does not exist to provide us with some science-fantasy stories. The background is there to support (=sell) other stuff. Like any business GW has to sell their product. The coherence or continuity in the background may therefore take the back seat. I don't think GW will change their modelling business or their game development just to make the background coherent. If the background is out of sync with the rest, that's what changes. This imo is the forum to identify and discuss these situations in the background, among others issues.


And in this topic, 'what happens when the emperor dies', I'm 99% certain GW have not set in stone what would happen when the Emperor dies. So all we can discuss is theories that keep within the goalposts which are the hints GW have given us.
If the Emperor would be reborn, one has to ask why he was so adamant on being put on the Golden throne in the first place? One theory that could explain that is that the power he has stolen from the Chaos Gods is tied to his current physical husk, and were his spirit to leave his physical form, that power would be returned (this is assuming he has stolen power from them in the first place, an idea I think came from visions granted by a daemon to persuade Horus that the big E was not just and so on).
But if true, then if the Emperor dies, humanity would stand without the Emperor at the same time as the Chaos gods surged in power, which would explain why he is still on the Golden Throne if he would be reborn. Maybe humanity would not survive long enough for the Emperor to be able to retake control?

Something I have been wondering about is how you all think the Emperor, the Astronomicon and the Golden Throne are tied together?
As i understood it, the idea was for Magnus to sit upon the Golden Throne and control the Astronomicon, but I don't think the Emperor intended Magnus to be the fuel for the Astronomicon. Therefore the fuel would need to come from somewhere else, and I think that's where the 1,000 psychers a day come in. I think they are what produces the beacon, which would mean the Emperor is not in a fact a super-hungry half-god-vampire, he just operates the beacon from the golden throne.

Or? The background sort of present the idea that the Emperor eats lots of psychers per day, and the beacon is simply produced by some esoteric means. There is no correlation between him needing to eat psychers and the beacon shining, which to me makes less sense, though it is definitely more grimdark.

I see this as another in-universe explanation that offers very little. It might be, it might not be, who knows? That's not a basis of discussion. Once GW decides, we can weigh in with critique or praise and discuss the resolution of these issues. But not now.

But look at your comment another way, focusing on some of the main aspects of the background as it exists now:

The emperor character is kept in stasis on a technological marvel that is not explained. Why? Because it is hinted this is lost technology whose functions are only perfunctorily known.
This immediately removes any obvious need of explaining the emperor in any meaningful way.
But, why is the technology "lost"? Well blah blah blah Age of Strife/Horus Heresy/Grimdark etc.
Why would GW insist on that trope, and also not radically moving the 40k timeline?

One explanation:

If in-universe technology is stagnant the same in-universe equipment is used with few modifications. Which means playable "real world" game scenarios can cover 10000+ years of in-universe timeline using the same playable "real world" game pieces (types of lists). That's a lot of different scenarios. That's a lot of games. That's a lot of situations where limited lines of models can be used again and again. That's how the initial invetsment in designing & manufacturing models gives a nice payout over time. It has to, because this is the core business, and the most expensive to operate. Can we divine GW's business plans? Should we? My answer is no. That's not what this forum or I'm here for. But these business plans are what ultimately decides the background imo. Therefore any "what-if" related in-universe comment is irrelevant under the circumstances. But I will comment on the presentation of the background when and if it happens.

Anyway, I'm not going to bring this up any more. I guess if people insist on off-topic comments and threads, so be it.

Lord Damocles
17-06-2015, 07:32
There are rumors that 40k might see a timeline update similar to fantasy at some point in the future.
Rumours which have been present in one form or another for at least a decade...

Plastic greatcoat Guard coming this summer!

nagash66
17-06-2015, 07:40
Plastic greatcoat Guard coming this summer!

Countdown for this to appear on Fait and the like as real rumor begins.

inq.serge
17-06-2015, 15:17
Last I heard, it's actually plastic Greatcoat Sisters! Yeah, that's right, Sisters get the greatcoats!

Russell's teapot
17-06-2015, 15:52
Stop going off topic! The inquisition is watching...

:rolleyes:

totgeboren
17-06-2015, 17:31
The background is there to support (=sell) other stuff.

Just two things. First of all this statement isn't entirely true. For a really long time, lots of background was written and released simply to make the world come more alive (of course to make it more interesting to consumers), but a great many things have been added that in no way promote sales. Like the division of vehicles between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines which is well established. Up until 6ed there were no allies (or, well, some Inq special rules, and I know 2ed had allies). I would not be surprised if the change in background from 'Everyone hates everyone and kills them on sight' to 'Most hate most others but do work together against a greater foe sometimes' was driven almost entirely by the increase in sales it would/could generate.

But the background is huge and has been ongoing for a long time, and during most of w40k history the background wasn't as much of a sales pitch as it is now.
I mean, there is/was lots of old background like the previously mentioned C'tan phase weapons, where the hint (C'tan) were just there to flesh things out, but what they were hadn't even been made up at that point in time.
Why did the Collossus Hive fleet (a renaming of the Zoats, communicative Nids) get half a page of background in the 4ed Nid codex, when it concluded with the destruction of the entire fleet? No models or rules would be released for them, yet they wrote a whole bunch about them? I wanted an army of those guys, but they will never get rules or models.

Anyway, yes, lately the background produced for 40k seem to have been written specifically to promote sales, but that is a rather recent phenomena, and the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne is certainly old background, written long before the current paradigm. So it wasn't written specifically to promote sales. It was written to create an evocative background.


And my second point is what I started off with telling you, if you are going to apply your incredibly stringent criteria of what belongs in the background forum, you will face a huge amount of frustration in the future (I have not seen anyone with as strict an idea of what is appropriate to discuss here since I joined which is 10 years ago *yikes!*).

Just imagine the name of the forum is really "Warhammer 40,000 Background & Related Things", and you will have a much better time I think. :p

Karhedron
17-06-2015, 22:08
There are rumors that 40k might see a timeline update similar to fantasy at some point in the future.


Rumours which have been present in one form or another for at least a decade...


Indeed, I first heard rumours about seriously advancing the timeline way back in 1997. There was a project to advance the fluff into the 43rd millenium. The basic premise was that Cypher finally reached Terra and killed the Emperor with the Lion Sword which plunged the Imperium into turmoil. Chaos errupted from the Eye of Terror and the Phoenix Lords mustered for the Rhana Dundra.

The main bastions of humanity were the Space Marines with each Chapter doing their best to secure the sectors around their homeworlds. These became islands of order under siege from the forces of Chaos. On the plus side, most of the Loyalist Primarchs returned to aid the Imperium in its darkest hour. Even Sanguinius returned from the dead by possessing Mephiston (rather like a greater daemon).

In the end, more conservative ideas prevailed and 3rd edition appeared in 1998 as a substantial rules overhaul but not a major change to the setting. However, titbits of the 43K fluff did appear in some of the early 3rd edition books as a sort of in-joke. The 3rd-ed DA codex had one where a Fallen Space Marine mentioned the rumour that Cypher had killed the Emperor and now sat on the Golden Throne.

The problem with the 43K idea at the time was it largely focussed on the Imperium, Chaos and (to some extent) the Eldar. Other races were rather marginalised.

Before the upheaval in Fantasy, I would have said that the idea of major timeline progression would have been as likely as Ghazkull Thraka receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. Whilst I would no longer discount it entirely, I still think it is unlikely as 40K still seems to be commercially successful whereas Fantasy was seen as needing a revamp due to falling sales.

Razios
18-06-2015, 07:12
In the case of 40K is that the setting allow for more ideas: after all you can have a lot of campain going on without the need to push for more background by advancing the timeline, also the horus heresy is still going, with rulebooks,novels,etc so there is still much going out before wh40k decied that is time to end everything,in fact while some codex push some form of end game(the khaine gate in comorragh) it held in others(the cītan are not longer a player option)

on the other hand, fantasy dosent really have that much: the background was already there and while you can put some things here and there, eventually there is not place to go back so you have to go further in time.

In other words: WH40K still have room to tell things, fantasy....dont

7788
18-06-2015, 14:58
Just two things. First of all this statement isn't entirely true. For a really long time, lots of background was written and released simply to make the world come more alive (of course to make it more interesting to consumers), but a great many things have been added that in no way promote sales. Like the division of vehicles between the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines which is well established. Up until 6ed there were no allies (or, well, some Inq special rules, and I know 2ed had allies). I would not be surprised if the change in background from 'Everyone hates everyone and kills them on sight' to 'Most hate most others but do work together against a greater foe sometimes' was driven almost entirely by the increase in sales it would/could generate.

Huh? Anything that creates new situations in the game leads to new & wider uses for the models. Advertising this expanded use for the models, either outright or surreptitiously (through proper background and/or supporting tie-in literature) is an established sales technique.


But the background is huge and has been ongoing for a long time, and during most of w40k history the background wasn't as much of a sales pitch as it is now.
I mean, there is/was lots of old background like the previously mentioned C'tan phase weapons, where the hint (C'tan) were just there to flesh things out, but what they were hadn't even been made up at that point in time.
Why did the Collossus Hive fleet (a renaming of the Zoats, communicative Nids) get half a page of background in the 4ed Nid codex, when it concluded with the destruction of the entire fleet? No models or rules would be released for them, yet they wrote a whole bunch about them? I wanted an army of those guys, but they will never get rules or models.

I think it is the opposite: the background was always a sales pitch. The 1st edition had a 200+ page book accompanying a skirmish game of a few models. The background featured prominently, as it has consistently since. Because the fluff is an "excuse" to set up a game. And the game is an "excuse" to buy the models. And models is where the biggest business cost lies. No models=no game=no background. It was never the other way around. That doesn't mean that everything in the fluff will have a one-to-one relationship with rules. That would make for a very boring & limiting background. Obviously a game will always be a small sub-set of the universe created to support said game. So you will have situations inserted in the background that may be there simply to add "colour" or dramatic tension. Or, you may have experimental fluff directions, a way to test ways to move/sell the game that may or may not eventually appear (in a very distilled manner) as future rules. Just as you may have experimental rules that may or may not appear (in an expanded story-type setting) as future fluff. This makes the background more exciting, in order to make the game based on it more viable. And that helps to increase model sales.


Anyway, yes, lately the background produced for 40k seem to have been written specifically to promote sales, but that is a rather recent phenomena, and the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne is certainly old background, written long before the current paradigm. So it wasn't written specifically to promote sales. It was written to create an evocative background.

I can confidently say that it is not "lately". Nor is this a "recent phenomenon". If you go through the White Dwarf all the way from the 1st ed until now, the sales model has always been the same: new or expanded background always appeared around the time of a new game, new edition, new model lines etc. It always was part of a concerted campaign to sell the models. That is how you stay in business selling basically the same product for 25+ years. The statement, "So it wasn't written specifically to promote sales. It was written to create an evocative background" is disingenious. The background has to be evocative in order to promote sales. It has had no independent meaning in GW's case, it has always been a tie-in.


And my second point is what I started off with telling you, if you are going to apply your incredibly stringent criteria of what belongs in the background forum, you will face a huge amount of frustration in the future (I have not seen anyone with as strict an idea of what is appropriate to discuss here since I joined which is 10 years ago *yikes!*).

My "incredibly stringent criteria" is that only background (ie official fluff) belongs in the background forum. Not anyone else's opinions or theories about what the fluff is or might be, these belong to other forums on this website. But I'm not frustrated. As I said, I'm not going to bring this up anymore. I'll just point out that this is the forum for official lore.

Karhedron
18-06-2015, 20:21
My "incredibly stringent criteria" is that only background (ie official fluff) belongs in the background forum. Not anyone else's opinions or theories about what the fluff is or might be, these belong to other forums on this website. But I'm not frustrated. As I said, I'm not going to bring this up anymore. I'll just point out that this is the forum for official lore.

GW (deliberately in many cases) write vague, subjective and contradictory fluff. Part of the reason is that different characters have different in-world views of events but also, crucially, it is there to give people different ideas for their armies.

Are the Alpha Legion base heretics or are they acting out of necessity and trying to undermine Chaos from within? There is no official answer and some of the events in the HH novels could be taken either way. The correct answer to the question is whichever inspires a modeler most to build an army.

As for your "criteria", this forum is for people to discuss the fluff in any way they see fit. You have waded into a number of threads to try to shut down opinions theories and speculation. These are, and always have been an active and important part of the debate here. You have been a member for 6 months and you are trying to tell members who have been here for many years what they can and cannot discuss.

The background forum is for discussing ALL aspects of the background. If readers believe there is a subtext, a master-plan or a hidden agenda buried in GW's fluff then discussing these ideas is part of the function of the forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ultimately all opinions are equally valid when it comes to discussing the "truth" of a fictional universe.

Telling people to stop discussing their ideas on an open forum because you do not like them is unhelpful and unfriendly.

Poncho160
18-06-2015, 20:28
GW (deliberately in many cases) write vague, subjective and contradictory fluff. Part of the reason is that different characters have different in-world views of events but also, crucially, it is there to give people different ideas for their armies.

Are the Alpha Legion base heretics or are they acting out of necessity and trying to undermine Chaos from within? There is no official answer and some of the events in the HH novels could be taken either way. The correct answer to the question is whichever inspires a modeler most to build an army.

As for your "criteria", this forum is for people to discuss the fluff in any way they see fit. You have waded into a number of threads to try to shut down opinions theories and speculation. These are, and always have been an active and important part of the debate here. You have been a member for 6 months and you are trying to tell members who have been here for many years what they can and cannot discuss.

The background forum is for discussing ALL aspects of the background. If readers believe there is a subtext, a master-plan or a hidden agenda buried in GW's fluff then discussing these ideas is part of the function of the forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and ultimately all opinions are equally valid when it comes to discussing the "truth" of a fictional universe.

Telling people to stop discussing their ideas on an open forum because you do not like them is unhelpful and unfriendly.

Here, here, well said that man :)

Wintermute
18-06-2015, 22:03
My "incredibly stringent criteria" is that only background (ie official fluff) belongs in the background forum. Not anyone else's opinions or theories about what the fluff is or might be, these belong to other forums on this website. But I'm not frustrated. As I said, I'm not going to bring this up anymore. I'll just point out that this is the forum for official lore.

You are very, very wrong.

This forum does exist for members to discuss their own opinions and theories about the background for the 40k background and it has never been restricted to 'official lore'.

Wintermute

MajorWesJanson
18-06-2015, 22:26
You are very, very wrong.

This forum does exist for members to discuss their own opinions and theories about the background for the 40k background and it has never been restricted to 'official lore'.

Wintermute

If you are looking for a place that is only the official fluff and not speculation, you are best served going to Lexicanum, which is a reference resource, rather than here, which is a discussion forum.

Wintermute
19-06-2015, 18:02
A number of off-topic posts have been removed, hopefully we can all remain on topic without any further interruptions.

Wintermute

Jimi Joms
23-04-2016, 23:49
New tid bit for you all in regards to this from 'Throneworld'. It's mentioned by the Inquisition that attempts to communicate with the Big E have failed (Both basically walking up to him and talking and via a pysker) and both methods never worked.

The Big E needed to be put on the Golden Throne to basically keep the Webway Gate under the Imperial Palace closed otherwise it would open and demons will tear Terra a new one. Think I read somewhere it may open a new Eye that is bigger than the current Eye but don't quote me on that.

The thing about letting Him die is something that doesn't sit with me. As it's been mentioned in the quote from the earlier lore, would He come back the same? Sure there's fluff about that states He has been broken into shards (Or his mind has ala Magnus and the C'Tan) and they are all aspects of humanity but magnified many times. Plus now we know He stole some of the power that was wielded from the Chaos Gods so who is to say that with Horus being so empowered by them (Via feat of arms/tests etc and basically not nicking the power), that he did cause a mortal wound to the Big E? We know certain powers/weapons can kill or remove the Perpetual abilities from what has been written in the HH novels.

Koriel Zeth
26-04-2016, 19:44
The different codexes are bias to their patron race, often omitting details that are not singing praise about them. GW also, as previously mentioned, seems to love glossing over things that seem pretty important. I'm not sure if it's lazy writing or their hiding something......

Razios
26-04-2016, 20:04
Sure there's fluff about that states He has been broken into shards (Or his mind has ala Magnus and the C'Tan)

in the inquisition trilogy, jaq draco enter and talk with the emperor, and find he have diferent voice always arguing with itself, aparanly his mind sharter and go in diferent direction.

Tastyfish
27-04-2016, 02:12
in the inquisition trilogy, jaq draco enter and talk with the emperor, and find he have diferent voice always arguing with itself, aparanly his mind sharter and go in diferent direction.

But the Emperor was never just "a" man but the repository of many souls.

Razios
27-04-2016, 03:11
But the Emperor was never just "a" man but the repository of many souls.

what he is? a gestalt entity of many thing that speak as one or the fusion of many soul into this....THING in form of man?

totgeboren
27-04-2016, 09:49
Man...bearpig? :eek: