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Dark_Mage99
06-06-2015, 17:25
A has re-rolls to hit.

B has enemies must re-roll successful hits.

What happens?

Do they cancel each other out?

Or does A get to re-roll, and since re-rolls can't then be re-rolled again, only the original hits are re-rolled again?

Mr_Rose
06-06-2015, 17:44
What technically happens is that player A rolls the dice (let's say they roll sixteen dice needing a 4+ and get a perfectly average eight successful rolls) then player A separates out all the misses and says "I have a rule that lets me re-roll these" then player B takes all the hits and says "aha! I have rule that says you must re-roll these also!" So player A once again rolls sixteen dice and, now, they've already been refilled once already, so nothing can trigger another re-roll for any of them.

Then bystander C points out that this is statistically identical to just rolling all the dice once and ignoring both rules.

Avian
07-06-2015, 17:50
From a game design standpoint, they could have avoided confusion by simply having no situations that forces an opponent to re-roll. Instead you could use a different effect with a similar result. Ex: Instead of forcing an opponent to re-roll to hit, the opponent got a to-hit penalty.

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2015, 19:34
From a game design standpoint, they could have avoided confusion by simply having no situations that forces an opponent to re-roll. Instead you could use a different effect with a similar result. Ex: Instead of forcing an opponent to re-roll to hit, the opponent got a to-hit penalty.

Or if it was made clear that all abilities that relate to the dice roll you are about to make are declared before the dice are rolled.

Pick up the dice.
Re-roll the misses from the attackers ability.
Re-roll the hits from the defenders ability.
Roll the re-rolls.
This is the score that applies.

Lord Dan
08-06-2015, 16:57
Whether you re-roll all the dice or ignore both rules is up to you and your opponent, just be sure you establish what you're doing and be consistent. I was playing a game where this conflict came up, and after my opponent rolled an abysmal bout of to-hit rolls he turned to me and said: "So we're playing that we re-roll all the dice, right?"

Ramius4
09-06-2015, 01:26
I was playing a game where this conflict came up, and after my opponent rolled an abysmal bout of to-hit rolls he turned to me and said: "So we're playing that we re-roll all the dice, right?"

I think this would call for a punch to the jimmy :shifty:

On a related note, it did take a friend of mine about 5 minutes to realize during a game that re-rolling was literally pointless. My brother and I were laughing because he just wasn't getting it. Then when it dawned on him what we were saying, he turned completely red with embarrassment.

WLBjork
13-06-2015, 03:02
Except it isn't really pointless because the results can change - especially if the dice don't match the probability (by which I mean a multiple of 6 for 2+/6+, multiple of 3 for 3+/5+ and a multiple of 2 for 4+)

The chance of an average 4+ result changing (with an even number of dice) is 50%. If it was an odd number of dice (where there are 2 average outcomes) the probability of the result changing jumps to 75%.

That to me means you always roll for it.

Ramius4
13-06-2015, 03:24
Except it isn't really pointless because the results can change - especially if the dice don't match the probability (by which I mean a multiple of 6 for 2+/6+, multiple of 3 for 3+/5+ and a multiple of 2 for 4+)

The chance of an average 4+ result changing (with an even number of dice) is 50%. If it was an odd number of dice (where there are 2 average outcomes) the probability of the result changing jumps to 75%.

That to me means you always roll for it.

Do you realize that you're re-rolling ALL of the dice? Essentially pick up the entire pile and re-roll it. So yes, re-rolling is pointless since doing so is simply a waste of both player's time.

theunwantedbeing
13-06-2015, 10:44
Do you realize that you're re-rolling ALL of the dice? Essentially pick up the entire pile and re-roll it. So yes, re-rolling is pointless since doing so is simply a waste of both player's time.

No more a waste of time than playing warhammer.
In anycase, the FAQ says both abilities cancel out.

Rolling twice makes more sense though.
Both abilities applied to the first roll, so you apply them and roll the dice you are required to roll again.
Done!

WLBjork
14-06-2015, 07:24
Do you realize that you're re-rolling ALL of the dice? Essentially pick up the entire pile and re-roll it. So yes, re-rolling is pointless since doing so is simply a waste of both player's time.

Yes, I am aware you are rerolling all the dice :rolleyes:.

It isn't pointless if the result changes. That is what people ignore.

The worst chance of the result changing is 1/6 or 16.67%, and if you consider that pointless, I guess you never take 6+ to hit shots either.

swordofglass
14-06-2015, 09:37
Yes, I am aware you are rerolling all the dice :rolleyes:.

It isn't pointless if the result changes. That is what people ignore.

The worst chance of the result changing is 1/6 or 16.67%, and if you consider that pointless, I guess you never take 6+ to hit shots either.

but... but... the results of the first roll can never count, no matter what you roll, so why not roll once and say "this counts as the second roll"?

Mr_Rose
14-06-2015, 12:24
Yes, I am aware you are rerolling all the dice :rolleyes:.

It isn't pointless if the result changes. That is what people ignore.

The worst chance of the result changing is 1/6 or 16.67%, and if you consider that pointless, I guess you never take 6+ to hit shots either.
It is pointless if the re-rolls are mandatory. You never get to keep the first roll so you save time by just rolling once and declaring that to be the re-rolled score.
It would only make a difference if you were inconsistent in applying the cancelling-out, such as by suddenly "remembering" that you're supposed to re-roll the dice when you get a poor initial roll but not bothering if you get a good one. And in that case you are cheating, whether you believe yourself to be or not, and I for one would refuse to play you again.

Avian
14-06-2015, 12:33
It's like doing a warm-up roll before important dice rolls. Unless you go "Is it okay if we count this warm-up roll as the actual roll?" then it doesn't matter.

WLBjork
15-06-2015, 17:53
Tbh, I don't ever remember encountering such a situation, but I would insist on the re-roll every time.

The first roll may not be used, but that doesn't make it pointless, any more than attempting a single 6+ to succeed roll precisely because the second roll has the probability to be different from the first.

Avian
15-06-2015, 19:02
The first roll may not be used, but that doesn't make it pointless, any more than attempting a single 6+ to succeed roll precisely because the second roll has the probability to be different from the first.
It IS pointless. The second roll has the exact same probability distribution as the first. That it could be different than the first roll has NO significance whatsoever.

I really do not understand what you are thinking of when you keep mentioning the 6+ roll. There is no connection there.

Don Zeko
15-06-2015, 21:58
It IS pointless. The second roll has the exact same probability distribution as the first. That it could be different than the first roll has NO significance whatsoever.

I really do not understand what you are thinking of when you keep mentioning the 6+ roll. There is no connection there.

Exactly. Getting a 6 is a low-probability event. Having the first roll effect the game is a zero-probability event. That's a very significant distinction.

Nicreap
17-06-2015, 02:58
Yes, I am aware you are rerolling all the dice :rolleyes:.

It isn't pointless if the result changes. That is what people ignore.

The worst chance of the result changing is 1/6 or 16.67%, and if you consider that pointless, I guess you never take 6+ to hit shots either.

What you don't seem to understand, and people are trying to explain is that the probability of rolling the same results twice in a row, or rolling a different result on the second roll DO NOT MATTER. Rolling dice is a Random process, so previous dice rolls in no way affect future dice rolls. so the odds of you rolling a 6 on your reroll is 1/6 regardless of whether you rolled a 1 on your first roll or a 6 on your first roll. The odds of rolling a 6 and a 6 again, is completely irrelevant, because the first 6 has no value or significance on the game. So you can ask your opponent to reroll all their dice, but it has the exact same odds as just keeping the first roll at achieving whatever they are trying to do.

any more than attempting a single 6+ to succeed roll precisely because the second roll has the probability to be different from the first.

This sentence makes no sense, if you are making a single 6+ roll, their is by definition no second roll. If you are talking about rerolling it, again, the probability the second dice roll is different is completely irrelevant to the odds of rolling a 6+ on your second roll. it is still 1/6, the dice don't remember what they last rolled.

bigbiggles
21-06-2015, 07:30
Are you counting and separating the dice before you reroll them? That could make you feel like the result changed, but it is equally likely that the change after the reroll will make you happy or sad.

Also, that would be a big waste of time statistically. Emotional, but useless.

HurrDurr
23-06-2015, 07:02
When you can blindfold yourself, roll all your dice, pick them up, reroll them, remove the blindfold, and the outcome hasn't changed, you have no record of the first roll, YES it is entirely redundant. The point being that even if you had known the outcome of the first roll it did not change anything.

This is the same logic as flipping a coin once when you know before hand the first flip is meaningless, it doesn't appease the gods and change the outcome of the second roll, just go ahead and pretend you flipped the coin and just do the "second" flip.

Imagine flipping a coin, recording its outcome, do this 17 more times, discard your records, then flip it and keep that score, you've successfully wasted as much time and patience as when you make someone pick up all their dice and reroll all of them, unless you just like the satisfaction of the reroll for tensing up games or just plain like rolling dice.

theunwantedbeing
23-06-2015, 08:46
Imagine flipping a coin, recording its outcome, do this 17 more times, discard your records, then flip it and keep that score, you've successfully wasted as much time and patience as when you make someone pick up all their dice and reroll all of them, unless you just like the satisfaction of the reroll for tensing up games or just plain like rolling dice.

Either you only own one dice, you're seriously slow at rolling dice or you are really really fast at flipping coins.

So much dislike for re-rolling in a game built on rolling dice...I don't get it at all.

Bloodknight
23-06-2015, 11:10
I really wish schools would put more emphasis on teaching probability calculus. There are so many misconceptions about that topic and it would probably really help people with their own risk assessment in life, too.
There's just no point in rolling 34 dice in two sets if one set of 17 dice will reach the same statistical outcome. It's not about not wanting to roll extra dice, it's about the silliness of doing so.

HurrDurr
23-06-2015, 15:23
Either you only own one dice, you're seriously slow at rolling dice or you are really really fast at flipping coins.

So much dislike for re-rolling in a game built on rolling dice...I don't get it at all.

Not to be dramatic but it insults someones intelligence when they are told it matters, based on mathematical fact. My post was supposed to be comical to highlight how silly it is to reroll. I do it for fun and as a joke because I'm around people who are in on the humor. I love rolling dice, and if my opponent wasn't aware of the redundancy I would maybe mention it but I wouldn't argue I'd reroll. Now if they tried to tell me I was wrong and "rerolling all the dice changes the outcome" then I'd have no choice but to resort to violence.