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View Full Version : Are the rumour of combined factions a bad thing? PT1 Elves



ScarVeteran
08-06-2015, 20:46
Looking at various previous posts Iíve been wondering if merging some of the current factions would really be as bad as some people are worried about. As itís one of the most commonly brought up I thought Iíd take a look at the elves just to see how compatible theyíd be.

Please note this is purely from an army list point of view, not background, so current special characters arenít included. Itís also very broad so take the linked units with a pinch of salt.

Characters
Fight Ė Most of these positions between the current books have the same basic profile. A slight expansion to the option (eg sea dragon cloaks) and upgrades such as becoming Anointed of (insert God) would cover them. This could also be done for Hero level version too. This cover 14 of the current 25 character types in 2 slots.

Similarly each has a Lord spell caster & a Hero level bring us up to 20 of the 25.

The last few are less straight forward, Assassin & Shadow Dancers while having different roles are still fairly close. Have a character who then has to choose a discipline eg Stealth or distraction. This could open things up for a more high elf type duellist discipline.

Similarly Branchwraiths and Loremasters are both fighting Spellcasters with natural or forged armour. Again some form of disciplines could take one stat into several versions which could open the way for a more Dark Elf type aspect (Blood magic Khaine disciple?)

Finally Treeman Ancients Ė These really would be a stand alone, but as Treemen where meant to also be in Avelorn itís not really a stretch for them to be in a wider Elf list.
So 25 over lapping characters compressed in to 7 more flexibility ones.

Infantry
Take a basic infantry unit with hand weapons, give them the options for shields/ sea dragon cloaks, Spears, bows and/or additional hand weapon and you have 9 of the current units in place. Giving a limited upgrade option to make the unit elite and you can added the a Sisters of Avelorn type in to the mix as well.

Elite Infantry
All three armies have elites armed with either Halberd or Great weapons. As above having a single unit type with the upgrade to great weapons would bring all 6 units in to once possible with a set of upgrade disciplines eg Hatred for Black guard or increased strength for White lions etc.

The rest
Between the lists there are several units of light infantry, 4 each combat and 4 scouting. Bring these into 2 units with elite upgrades (scouts to way watchers, witches to Sisters of Slaughter types)

The same could be done with the 3 light Calvary, 4 Heavy (included Wildriders) and 5 Chariot types.

Mage cavalry and Bolt throwers round things off bring 40 separate units into a single list of 9.

After that all that remains are the monstrous units. Treekin & Warhawk riders, Dragons, Hydras/Kyaribdyss, Phoenix/Great eagles, Manticore, Medusa & Harpies

The combined list has 7 Character, 9 Elven units & 10 Beasts.

Current Dark Elves 8 characters, 12 Elven units & 6 monstrous units.

Current High Elves 9 characters, 15 Elven units & 4 monstrous units.

Current Wood Elves 8 characters, 10 Elven units & 4 monstrous units.

Add in an army trait to tailor the whole force (Dark/High/Wood/Combined) could then round it off.

The background section of the book then gives the padding to allow you to make your master scouts Way Watcher or your elite guard into sinister Black Guard.

In terms of models, going forward we could end up with a system similar to how Space Marines seem to be heading. 1 Standard, Elite & light Infantry, 1 light, Heavy & Mage Calvary and one Chariot kits with upgrade kits to make them Dark, High or Wood Elves with the standard being post End Times combined.

Now I know some people are dreading losing ďtheirĒ elves, but if this kept all of the elves going well into the future would it really hurt?

StygianBeach
09-06-2015, 10:29
The elves could be combined into some super Night Elf like faction without too much trouble.

I think the only units that would not transition well would be the Dark Elf monsters.

SuperHappyTime
09-06-2015, 13:15
I think the main counterargument against combining factions is the 30 years of fluff you lose in the process. Yes, there can be good fluff written about them as a single united elf faction (One that worships Malekith, Alarielle, Tyrion, etc. much the same way the Elves worship Aenarion, Isha, Khaine, etc.). The only issue is that it's going to be brought to you by the same people "who nuked their own world"

Shakkara
09-06-2015, 13:51
For me it just depends on the artistic style of any new Elf models.

There are a lot of models I like amongst all factions and I wouldnt mind merges if the style of the new faction would be in the line of models such as: Dark Elf spearmen/darkshards, high elf swordmasters, 56th ed dark elf executioners, eternal guard, 6th ed silverhelms, 6th ed phoenix guard, wildwood rangers, lothern sea guard, HE dragon.

However there are also a lot of models in the Elf ranges that I really hate: Witches, Shades, 8th ed executioners, sisters of avalorn, sisters of the thorn, 8th edition phoenix guard, cauldron of blood, dryads/treemen, DE monsters.

I just fear that my favorite list is deemed too 'generic' by GW and they steer the new elf mini style into the direction of the bottom list. In which case I won't be joining 9th ed.

NagashLover
09-06-2015, 19:13
I don't see it as a bad thing. It doesn't do anything to contradict with past fluff really since the End Times happened. Only the people who did not want Warhammer to change at all feel that way. Which runs counter to how time works, in the sense that things and people change. I'll still be handling my forces fluff on the local level as I have been for years (especially considering how much they changed within those years without blowing up the world) and doubt I'll have any issue connecting my armies old fluff and the "old" Warhammer fluff in with the new stuff.

Now that doesn't mean the new fluff will be any better or worse than the old...my point is their is no compatibility error in the slightest.

Merging into combined factions just lifts the arbitrary restrictions people put on themselves by saying "well since this book says this and everything that is in this book is the word of God, a High Elf/(Empire) and a Dark Elf/(Undead) would NEVER work together!". It allows for freedoms both within the game world itself and at local levels. So it seems less odd that you would have Empire working with a Vampire or one set of pointy ears working with another set. PP also works this way, Circle is a hodgepodge of theoretically different elements tied by a force book. Mercs is probably a better example, as you have different factions that encompass different themes that can be mixed and matched to an extent.

The issue I'm watching out for is if they make it far too generic with the factions. Again, I'd prefer more a PP approach and less a Mantic.

Althwen
10-06-2015, 09:06
My main problem with this is my personal meta.
I play in a small gaming group and 3 of us have elven armies, each different up to this point, but maybe no longer.
Additionally 2 of is have VC and me myself TK, thats another faction shared by 3 ppl.
Lastly I also play WoC and a mate of mine plays Daemons. Thats a third faction shared by multiple players.

So my main beef (without knowing any of the specifics yet so this may be void) is that merging factions will greatly harm faction diversity.

However, all of this is based on the warhammer that we know. And everything seems to indicatie that that Warhammer is dead and army building as we know it is out the window.

Just wait and see I guess.

Risegreymon
10-06-2015, 09:50
Deep in the forest of Loren, The End Times:

Dark Elf: 'So, what do you guys do for malicious fun around here?'

High Elf: 'Let me get this straight. You druchii have raided, enslaved, tortured and brutalized my people for thousands of years, and now we're all supposed to be friends and sing kumbaya around the campfire? Yep. Like that's gonna happen.'

(*Stabs Dark Elf scum in the face.*)

Nightfall Shimmer
10-06-2015, 10:25
Deep in the forest of Loren, The End Times:

Dark Elf: 'So, what do you guys do for malicious fun around here?'

High Elf: 'Let me get this straight. You druchii have raided, enslaved, tortured and brutalized my people for thousands of years, and now we're all supposed to be friends and sing kumbaya around the campfire? Yep. Like that's gonna happen.'

(*Stabs Dark Elf scum in the face.*)

*The Skaven rubs his paws with glee* "Just as scheme-schemed!" :evilgrin:

In the new Warhammer there might not really _any_ difference between any kind of elf. Their just... Elves.

Sothron
10-06-2015, 16:06
Deep in the forest of Loren, The End Times:

Dark Elf: 'So, what do you guys do for malicious fun around here?'

High Elf: 'Let me get this straight. You druchii have raided, enslaved, tortured and brutalized my people for thousands of years, and now we're all supposed to be friends and sing kumbaya around the campfire? Yep. Like that's gonna happen.'

(*Stabs Dark Elf scum in the face.*)

Sums it up nicely. I will not invest into a Warhammer where factions that have HATED each other for thousands of years are suddenly all forgiven and working together.

jascarr4
10-06-2015, 16:40
Sums it up nicely. I will not invest into a Warhammer where factions that have HATED each other for thousands of years are suddenly all forgiven and working together.

I don't think it will be suddenly. Harry's rumors state that AoS will be hundreds of years in the future. With the Old World gone, and the long civil war over, it jives that the few remaining elves might unify.

Sothron
10-06-2015, 18:52
I don't think it will be suddenly. Harry's rumors state that AoS will be hundreds of years in the future. With the Old World gone, and the long civil war over, it jives that the few remaining elves might unify.

That doesn't make it any better, honestly. I have no interest in a squatted Warhammer universe.

kurisawa
11-06-2015, 04:27
Looking at various previous posts Iíve been wondering if merging some of the current factions would really be as bad as some people are worried about. As itís one of the most commonly brought up I thought Iíd take a look at the elves just to see how compatible theyíd be.

I understand what you are saying, and I think no-one will disagree that there are a lot of "similar" units across the 3 armies that could certainly be combined with little effort and just a few options...


Please note this is purely from an army list point of view, not background, so current special characters arenít included. Itís also very broad so take the linked units with a pinch of salt.


But here is, I think, where your analysis and purpose falls down. It's the background that players fear losing, not the options.

For my own part, while I could live with a combined armybook as long as I can field my old Wood Elves intact, I sort of wonder at what GW would achieve with such a move. Surely the logic for the big reboot is to create more distinctive IP (and hence harder to copy for other miniature makers). A more generic "elves" list seems counter-productive to that aim, to me.

The WE's lack of access to heavy cav, chariots, any sort of heavy armour, and to have in place instead lots of woodland spirits and wild, wonderful things like wardancers and waywatchers, is what makes them different to elves in other IPs. I'm sure the DE players can claim the same thing about their army's peculiarities.


K.

mdauben
11-06-2015, 04:57
I think Kurisawa has hit the nail on the head. For me, army choice is about more than stats and choices. It's about background, appearance, and tactics of the army. High Elves and Dark Elves existed for years, but I didn't touch the pointy ears until the Wood Elves came out. I loved the wild nature of many of their troops, the cool looking miniatures, and the fluid tactics necessary to play them effectively. If I can play a "pure" WE list under the rumored merging of the Elves, that's one thing. If they will only work as troop choices along side HE and DE units, I don't know if I want to bother. Likewise with my Ogre Kingdoms collection. I never played green skins and if I have to in order to field my Ogres, well, they will probably just gather dust like my WE and LM. :(

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

StygianBeach
11-06-2015, 09:12
I understand what you are saying, and I think no-one will disagree that there are a lot of "similar" units across the 3 armies that could certainly be combined with little effort and just a few options...

But here is, I think, where your analysis and purpose falls down. It's the background that players fear losing, not the options.

For my own part, while I could live with a combined armybook as long as I can field my old Wood Elves intact, I sort of wonder at what GW would achieve with such a move. Surely the logic for the big reboot is to create more distinctive IP (and hence harder to copy for other miniature makers). A more generic "elves" list seems counter-productive to that aim, to me.

The WE's lack of access to heavy cav, chariots, any sort of heavy armour, and to have in place instead lots of woodland spirits and wild, wonderful things like wardancers and waywatchers, is what makes them different to elves in other IPs. I'm sure the DE players can claim the same thing about their army's peculiarities.


K.

While I agree it is the army list is the lesser concern compared to the background, I disagree that GW's wood elves are different to other IPs.
The current Wood, Dark and High elves are all easily recognisable and generic in their own way.

If the 3 get merged it will be easier to give Warhammer elves a distinct look. My guess is that they will look more like Eldar Warlocks.

StygianBeach
11-06-2015, 09:14
Gah! double post....