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Herkamer63
09-06-2015, 18:42
For those who haven't heard, early information is coming out on Codex: Space Marines. To me, it starting to sound like a very promising codex, given what is being reported. Now this wouldn't be much of a thread without some thoughts, so I'll give over the "duhs" and then some of the "that's (fill in the blank)" stuff. A lot of this is still rumors so I'll do my best to try make these strictly thoughts. No promises on the "duhs". Let's get started.

All non Land Raiders dedicated transports are now FA, per the trend of 7th ed codices. Calgar is a LoW which is not surprising, except he's the only LoW, reportedly. Honor Guard and Command Squads are now elite, like the other former hq units in previous editions. The Assault Marines and Devastators Squads are what was shown in leaked images and on GW site. Finally, no big changes to the units, relics, and special HQs, other than warlord traits, some rules, and pieces of wargear. None of this really surprised me because of the trends that were seen in previous 7th ed codices, so if anyone was expecting anything spectacular from what I just named in this section (other than devise taking grav cannons with grav amps) you put your standards way too high. Now that obvious is out of the way, let's move on to the more interesting stuff.

First on my list are the Chapter Traits. Though they remained relatively the same, there some changes on how they work. Ultramarines pretty much stayed the same with all of their doctrines intact. White Scars almost remained entirely the same except no more outflanking LRs. Salamanders now, reportedly, have a 4+ FnP against flamer weapons, an reroll failed to wounds and penetrates with flame weapons. My favorite one (please, let this one be true), Imperial Fists now can use bolter drill with special issue ammo along with all the rules they had before (vengeance rounds, anyone). Iron hands with a straight up +1 FnP and can be improved with apothecaries with, and all the same special rules they had previously. Black Templars, supposedly, got a buff with rage and counter charge if you kill one of their dudes. Combine that with what they have now and you got some scary black armored guys to go up against in CC. Lastly, Raven Guard: I already know how a lot of people feel about these guys and how they lost scout, and I get it. However, I still think they can be very useable. Shrouded is not bad, and with getting night fight on a 3+, in most cases, you just have to deploy them correctly and make good use of your jump infantry on turn 1. Keep your chin up, whoever plays RG out there.

More vehicle squadrons for SM should have been done awhile ago. Predators, being the main battle tank for SM, should have had better benefits, and now it sounds like they got them in squadrons with monster hunter and tank hunter. IH players should take full advantage of that. Though not vehicles, thunderfire cannons now can come in squads with +1 BS if you take 3 (owwie). I'm not sure on whirlwinds yet on whether they can now be taken in squadrons or not, but would be nice if they did and run them alongside thunderfires. The nastiest one by far, if it holds to be true, is the 3 vindicator apoc blast ignoring cover (YIKES). So vehicles are much better. Again, IH players should take advantage if any of this is true.

The Warlord Traits don't sound bad either. I know everyone will be gunning for FnP, but honestly, and this may sound absurd, the modified Fear rule might actually be almost as useful. It's still a Leadership test, but rolling 3d6 under whatever you need isn't an easy task. Remember the old Mind Shackle Scarabs? I mean you're not having the opponent hit themselves, but you have to figure the average Ld is an 8 and it's much easier to pass with 2d6. Throw in an additional d6, however, then you have a problem on your hands with the possibility of being WS1. Again, sounds absurd, but don't rule it out yet. You may be surprised, and possibly satisfied, by the results.

Finally, some miscellaneous stuff. Terminators, both kinds, a 5 pt reduction, which is good IMO. Whether if people will use them or not is a debate for later. Assault Centurions now have S10 Siege Drills making them much nastier (thunderwolves have nothing on these guys in terms of killing power, but inv. saves on the other hand...yeah). Telion and Cronos both HQ units now, pulling a SW rule that let's them join specific units. No chapter specific relics, which I was really hoping for. Also, no make your own chapter tactics. There was opportunity to bring in more 4th ed SM into the mix and really make something of it, but I say GW blew it on that note. All the formations seem pretty solid, but I won't get into them since there's too much detail in those. You'll just have to take the news at its word. Tactical doctrines are pretty cool with re-rerolling hits in shooting and assault. I just can't remember, though, if it can be used with any infantry units. If someone can get back to me on that on here, that would be awesome. Just think if it was possible and do it with Crusader Squads with Rage and with Helbrecht, who gives Furious Charge to his unit, then you would see, almost, an entire mob of orks gone before they get to swing.

My overall thoughts on C:SM: I think we're getting very solid and usable army, based on the news. Obviously, we won't know everything until the codex hits, so again, these are just the rumors. However, the reports coming in have been very consistent, so it leads me to believe, and I'm not speaking for anyone else here, much of this is true. The only 3 real disappointments for me are: 1) Black Templars not getting their own codex. I still think they meet all the credentials to have their own book and could have received a SW treatment. They'll still be good, but I was really hoping they would come out of C:SM. 2) Raven Guard sound like they got the short end of the stick with their new rules. Again, I'm sure RG players will find a way to make them work effectively, but that'll take awhile (I hope I'm wrong). Finally 3) No create your chapter tactics. Once more, a missed opportunity on this one. All GW had to do was put a certain set of special rules in their to use, and you have yourself a unique chapter you, the player, created. Maybe a fool's hope, but it would make SM more dynamic, IMO. Other those 3 issues, this codex will be awesome. I pre-ordered mine Saturday, so I can't wait to get a hold of it and get my Crimson Fists back out on the table. That's all for now. Sorry for how big this article is. It's just a lot of information and wanted to on the most significant pieces as possible, and give my thoughts on them. I hope people are as excited as I am. Sound off and let your thoughts be heard. "And they shall know no fear"

AngryAngel
09-06-2015, 19:19
Seems, with some tweaks aside, like the same book. Formations built in, power level about where it currently sits. Nothing to write home about but also nothing to lament. If you liked the last space marine codex you'll like this one. If you didn't like the last one, this one won't pull you over to them. It seems to be a deeper tweak then the guard got with their book, but not a blanket buff like Eldar received. Perhaps the books is in the goldilocks zone for improvement.

Generally, I feel bad for those who picked it up before as they aren't getting a whole lot new for their money. For those, like myself, who missed out on the last codex, I think its a good buy.

Overall, a positive release and shows the Eldar power trend was a hiccup and not the way of the future.

insectum7
09-06-2015, 19:43
Grav Devastators re-rolling to hit for multiple turns + re-rolling to wound is hot ****.

mostlyharmless
09-06-2015, 19:47
In regards to Raven Guard, I think this is an effort to push the jump pack marines. Between the high chance of having a 4+ cover save for the entire first turn, and then the bonuses to jump packs, it's a very solid assault style army. Now, if only they could find a way to take a majority of assault marines.

MajorWesJanson
09-06-2015, 19:55
Scout buff! Sniper Scouts are back to being nasty again!

GrandmasterWang
09-06-2015, 20:36
Seems, with some tweaks aside, like the same book. Formations built in, power level about where it currently sits. Nothing to write home about but also nothing to lament. If you liked the last space marine codex you'll like this one. If you didn't like the last one, this one won't pull you over to them. It seems to be a deeper tweak then the guard got with their book, but not a blanket buff like Eldar received. Perhaps the books is in the goldilocks zone for improvement.

Generally, I feel bad for those who picked it up before as they aren't getting a whole lot new for their money. For those, like myself, who missed out on the last codex, I think its a good buy.

Overall, a positive release and shows the Eldar power trend was a hiccup and not the way of the future.

We shall see. I just saw a snippet about the formation which provides free transports which at a glance seemed like a pretty massive buff. For owners of the previous Codex I don't feel like this update provides enough new content/ units.

Liking the rules for Lysander. The model is a tank and now the rules make him even tankier! The oldest living space marine deserves it.

What is the deal with this and supplements like Clan Raukan?

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InstantKarma
09-06-2015, 21:02
I actually was thinking the All Scouts formation, combined with RG Chapter Tactics, AND since Scouts now are back to regular SM stats looks pretty powerful for a turn 1 alpha strike. All those precision rending sniper rifles could pick off some valuable targets, maybe grab Slay the Warlord or First Blood and have a +2 cover save easy.

Perversor
09-06-2015, 21:25
We shall see. I just saw a snippet about the formation which provides free transports which at a glance seemed like a pretty massive buff. For owners of the previous Codex I don't feel like this update provides enough new content/ units.

Liking the rules for Lysander. The model is a tank and now the rules make him even tankier! The oldest living space marine deserves it.

What is the deal with this and supplements like Clan Raukan?

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If that formation is tru it can be quite a massive boost one.

1 Captain
1 Chaplain
6 Tactical squads (5 members)
2 Assault squads
2 Devastator squads

Just by adding that you can get any rhino,Razorback and drop pod upgrade for free... that's just 10 free tanks ...

A.T.
09-06-2015, 21:26
Seems, with some tweaks aside, like the same book. Formations built in, power level about where it currently sits.Seems like a bit of an upwards move in power so far, lots of little buffs here and there and nothing outstandingly negative so far. I can't think of any bad news from the rumours worse than the loss of scouts from chapter tactics and the loss of free assault troop transports - small fry stuff really.

Seems to be pushing the book solidly ahead of the also-rans.

Losing Command
09-06-2015, 21:46
All the formations added to it make it worth the purchase, but the changes outside of that look like they could have been handled with an erreta. I am glad it isn't as over the top as the last updated codex, because an easymode codex just isn't my thing.

Spiney Norman
09-06-2015, 22:10
Based on what I've read of the codex leaks at the points size I play (1500-2000) I doubt I'll see any change in SM armies at all except maybe devastators as the new grav platform instead of centurions.

Where this codex does get interesting is at larger games, the SM formations seem to be pitched at a higher points value than the Eldar or Necron ones, by my calculations you'll struggle to get the Gladius and one of the more meaningful auxiliaries in at 1500 once you start handing out special/heavy weapons, something both Necrons and Eldar can accomplish easily. Plus the fact that the formation bonus for the Gladius is pretty similar to the CAD (obsec) I estimate that most folks won't bother with it until games get quite a bit larger and they can bring the more interesting formations. The same is true in the mass-squadroning of vehicles, the codex is quite clearly designed to make you want to bring more stuff.

Overall I'd say the power level of the book is about the same as it was, pretty level with Tau at the top of the main pack, but three or four rungs below Crondar.

Freman Bloodglaive
09-06-2015, 22:14
Scouts have WS/BS 4?

MagicHat
09-06-2015, 22:36
Vanguard boost was entirely unexpected and I frankly don't see the GW logic behind it. It feels wrong being costed so low, but I thought the same about 3 pt jump packs, so maybe it is just initial shock.
I am unsure about how I feel about the tank squadrons. Specifically, the part where they lose their 3 squad bonus if one of them dies (and SM tanks dies fast IME). Would have preferred if at 3 in a squadron, one tank gets a tank commander and as long as that one remains, the buff stays.

EDIT: Oh yeah, scouts are BS/WS4 now, with no increases in price. That is nice. Shame you can't take an optional Captain in their formation with the "Lead by Example rule" giving him scout and infiltrate.


Calgar is a LoW which is not surprising, except he's the only LoW, reportedly.

And apparently his power fists are no longer unwieldy.


Ultramarines pretty much stayed the same with all of their doctrines intact.

Completely changed it though. Previous tactics were more interesting then those re-rolls to hit.


More vehicle squadrons for SM should have been done awhile ago. Predators, being the main battle tank for SM, should have had better benefits, and now it sounds like they got them in squadrons with monster hunter and tank hunter. I'm not sure on whirlwinds yet on whether they can now be taken in squadrons or not, but would be nice if they did and run them alongside thunderfires.

Whirlwinds are pinning and shred in a formation.


The Warlord Traits don't sound bad either. I know everyone will be gunning for FnP, but honestly, and this may sound absurd, the modified Fear rule might actually be almost as useful.


The one where a squad within 12" gets rending sounds better then FNP for 1 dude to me.

Snake Tortoise
09-06-2015, 22:41
Raven Guard get shrouded across the whole army? Just non vehicles or everything? If that is free I can't see what people are complaining about, sounds like loyalist privilege to me :(

Any trends we can expect to influence the chaos marines codex? Four attacks base for the dread is good, hopefully they'll give us the same.

Losing Command
09-06-2015, 22:47
What exactly happend to Vanguard ?

MagicHat
09-06-2015, 22:52
RG Shrouded is only the first turn and not if you started inside a vehicle.


What exactly happend to Vanguard ?

Re-roll any die on the charge distance (If I understood it correctly) and power weapon/LC dropped by a third, while the PF, TH and Relicblade dropped by 10 points.

Freman Bloodglaive
09-06-2015, 23:02
Re-roll any die on the charge distance (If I understood it correctly) and power weapon/LC dropped by a third, while the PF, TH and Relicblade dropped by 10 points.

You mean that taking special weapons on Vanguard doesn't cost an arm and a leg? That seems like a plus to me.

Eldarsif
09-06-2015, 23:11
Although I expected more changes I must say that what I am seeing can potentially be incredibly powerful, especially if the ObSec rumors are true. I imagine basically ton of drop pods dropping MSU squads all over the place on objectives capping everything almost indefinitely(armor 12 drop pods are really annoying to get off objectives, even worse when you are dealing with a handful of them). I also imagine that we will see quite a few drop pods with Grav Centurions now that you don't have to ally anymore to get drop pods, and drop pods with Grav-Devs is going to be the go to Elite Killer. Also if the drop pods are scoring within the formation it basically means you have incredibly strong objective takers. I at least feel like the Space Marine game has changed a lot for us who play MoW as Space Marines have the potential to be the kings of objective capturing.

I at least know that my Ultramarine friend is just going manic with glee over the stuff here and happy that he already had quite a few drop pods ordered some time ago. :)

Commissar Davis
09-06-2015, 23:11
I think that BT got some loving in this one, not sure if intentional or not.
The Chaplin formation gives them a nice little boost and the LR formation will make them far more likely to reach combat (you can only hurt them by make them explode), all looking real nice.

They will be worth keeping an eye on at any rate.

Snake Tortoise
09-06-2015, 23:44
RG Shrouded is only the first turn and not if you started inside a vehicle.


Fair enough, that isn't very impressive then. Stealth (all game) for everything that isn't a vehicle would have been better- fluffy and effective but not too OP

MagicHat
09-06-2015, 23:44
There is some nice options to bring in vehicles for the AdMech here. The Techmarine +3 tank squadrons for example seems to fit in just right.
I am actually pondering the Land Raider formation (IH chapter Tactics obviously) for my Skitarii.


You mean that taking special weapons on Vanguard doesn't cost an arm and a leg? That seems like a plus to me.

It is like they sat down and realized that PW obviously wasn't worth 15 pts on 19 pt Vanguards. But then they looked at 24 pt tactical sergeants and thought 15 pts was naturally the correct to pay.
Right now the points drop feels overpowered, but they actually seems to measure up well to Honour Guard and Terminators now, so maybe not.

Spiney Norman
09-06-2015, 23:49
There is some nice options to bring in vehicles for the AdMech here. The Techmarine +3 tank squadrons for example seems to fit in just right.
I am actually pondering the Land Raider formation (IH chapter Tactics obviously) for my Skitarii.



It is like they sat down and realized that PW obviously wasn't worth 15 pts on 19 pt Vanguards. But then they looked at 24 pt tactical sergeants and thought 15 pts was naturally the correct to pay.
Right now the points drop feels overpowered, but they actually seems to measure up well to Honour Guard and Terminators now, so maybe not.

I cannot tell how much I hope they get rid of this whole transport sharing between allies thing in the next core revision, it's so out of character and gamey it just needs to go away imo, it should never have been allowed in the first place.

MagicHat
09-06-2015, 23:58
I cannot tell how much I hope they get rid of this whole transport sharing between allies thing in the next core revision, it's so out of character and gamey it just needs to go away imo, it should never have been allowed in the first place.

Considering GW decided that AdMech forgot all about the transports they have, and that IWND Land Raiders are a close approximation to the Mechanicus Land Raider, I will have to disagree.

Spiney Norman
10-06-2015, 00:04
Considering GW decided that AdMech forgot all about the transports they have, and that IWND Land Raiders are a close approximation to the Mechanicus Land Raider, I will have to disagree.

Because the game would be so much more boring if armies actually had to deal with their inbuilt weaknesses instead of just recruiting a cheap allied detachment of whatever to supply whatever they need. Your Skitarri getting shot up? No problem buy them an allied LR, your banshees don't like standing around for a turn after they jump out of their serpent, no problem buy them a raider, your Scytheguard don't like slogging across the field, no problem buy them an archon with a web way portal.

Battle bro transport/HQ sharing needs to stop, so many problems with the game would be fixed by that one change.

Herkamer63
10-06-2015, 00:38
I just read something that could be one of my favorite pieces of information, so far. Marneus Calgar, according to B&C, went Beast Mode with the Gauntlets of Ultramar going at initiative, still at S8 AP2! Let's see if this holds to be true. This would be awesome for UM players finally seeing their best character actually be their best character.

Kerrahn
10-06-2015, 03:08
I personally don't hate the changes to the RG Chapter Tactics, might help keep a bunch of my guys alive on turn 1 to close the distance for assaults or rapid-fire shots.

And the improvement on Scouts and the points reduction for Vanguard Vets is an indirect buff to a fluffy RG army, now I can feel more confident fielding my double Lightning Claw (+ some TH + SS) Vets, and better Scouts means I could fill Troop choices up for less points if I wanted (for something not as bad anymore) to spend on Jump Pack units instead.

Grand Master Raziel
10-06-2015, 04:21
Overall, a positive release and shows the Eldar power trend was a hiccup and not the way of the future.

I concur. There's some good stuff in there, but nothing making me go "Holy poop that's broken!"

Then again, after Codex Craftworld Eldar, the holy-poop-that's-broken bar is set pretty high.

insectum7
10-06-2015, 04:26
I concur. There's some good stuff in there, but nothing making me go "Holy poop that's broken!"


And then they arrived in twelve free drop pods. . .

Wolf Lord Balrog
10-06-2015, 05:15
My Space Wolves are crying. When do we get any of these goodies? Tanks in squadrons? Suddenly everybody else's Scouts are as good as ours, despite being trainees and ours are elite veterans? Decent formations in the codex and not separated into a supplement? Even cheaper Terminators than before? Free transports?! /sigh

AngryAngel
10-06-2015, 06:10
And then they arrived in twelve free drop pods. . .

If someone has that many drop pods, and if they are playing at the point level for that formation, sure thing. I'm more concerned over the cheap to field formations to be seen in games at 1500, 1750 and such. I don't think it'll end up game breaking as pods are pretty cheap anyways.

insectum7
10-06-2015, 06:20
^Remains to be seen. If the squads don't have to be maxed out, based on what I'm hearing, the math goes like this:

Captain
Chaplain
2 min Command
6 min Tacs
2 min Assaults
2 min Devs
~11-1200 points

650 points for gear

12 free transports at 1850

Now I'm hoping that there's a catch, but five man squads are not expensive.

Losing Command
10-06-2015, 06:27
In the Demi-company the command squad is optional, and instead of taking Assault Marines you can also take Bikes, Attack Bikes, Landspeeders or Assault Centurions. So the cheapest Demi-company is about 450 points, without any upgrades. I'd say that it leaves enough room for some nice extra's here and there :D

insectum7
10-06-2015, 06:34
I'm mildly amused, because only mere days ago I committed to buying another three Pods from a friend of mine.

Malefactum
10-06-2015, 06:59
^Remains to be seen. If the squads don't have to be maxed out, based on what I'm hearing, the math goes like this:
12 free transports at 1850

Now I'm hoping that there's a catch, but five man squads are not expensive.
Hi.

Does this include any transports that can be taken? Including upgrades? 12 free razorbacks with twin linked lascannons and twin linked heavy bolters come in at nearly 800 points. At a game of 1200 points this would be nearly two third of the points of additional free vehicles. This is crazy, I need more razorbacks :D Or is this "only" rhinos and drop pods? This still comes in at slightly more than 400 points which is one third of the game being played.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-06-2015, 07:01
The transports are free, the upgrades aren't. You're also missing that you have to make an Auxiliary selection, as the bonus only comes in the Gladius Strike Force Detachment, and the detachment requires at least one Core choice (The Battle Demi-Company) and at least one Auxiliary choice.

GrandmasterWang
10-06-2015, 07:09
^Remains to be seen. If the squads don't have to be maxed out, based on what I'm hearing, the math goes like this:

Captain
Chaplain
2 min Command
6 min Tacs
2 min Assaults
2 min Devs
~11-1200 points

650 points for gear

12 free transports at 1850

Now I'm hoping that there's a catch, but five man squads are not expensive.

Yes I am really hoping the units need to be 10 man to get the free transport. A free transport per 5 man squad is ridiculous.

More information needed.

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Malefactum
10-06-2015, 07:28
The transports are free, the upgrades aren't. You're also missing that you have to make an Auxiliary selection, as the bonus only comes in the Gladius Strike Force Detachment, and the detachment requires at least one Core choice (The Battle Demi-Company) and at least one Auxiliary choice.Ah, I see. So need quite some more points to field it.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-06-2015, 07:48
Full squads aren't necessary, so 5-man squads all around is enough to meet the requirement. The cheapest combo, while maximizing the number of transports (so ignoring Bikes and such), had 67 models. 30 Tactical Marines, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Devastators, 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, and 15 Scouts for the Auxiliary requirement.

Malefactum
10-06-2015, 07:51
I really need more razorbacks then to field 12 for free at 1500 points with minor upgrades for squads and vehicles.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-06-2015, 08:10
I'm tempted to build a Battle Company with drop pods and unleash gravitic hell on the opposition with a first turn grav cannon/grav gun drop pod assault alpha strike.

Eldarsif
10-06-2015, 08:40
I'm tempted to build a Battle Company with drop pods and unleash gravitic hell on the opposition with a first turn grav cannon/grav gun drop pod assault alpha strike.

Same here.

I feel like my friend was kinda prophetic as he has now built an Ultramarine army around drop pods that actually would work very well with this setup. For some reason I imagine GW is going to be sold out of drop pods for the foreseeable future. :p

Emperor Karl Franz
10-06-2015, 08:46
I've already been building up my numbers of drop pods because I just like them, but given that I already own enough Space Marines to field several Battle Companies, I'm going to try to get as many drop pods as possible. Although in all honesty, I think I'm going to end up eBaying some of my old Marines and using the money to buy the new ones. I really like the armor on the new Devastators, for instance, so I'd rather have those than the old ones I currently have (not to mention that I'd like to own a lot more grav cannons). And I hate the previous plastic kit for the Assault Squad, so I'll probably hock those so I can exchange them for the new Assault Squads.

The big reason for that idea, though, is the Ultramarines upgrade pack. I'd love to have a full company decorated with that, and I'm not about to start ripping apart old models, so it seems like a good time to start selling older models to get the newer ones.

Karhedron
10-06-2015, 10:14
Battle bro transport/HQ sharing needs to stop, so many problems with the game would be fixed by that one change.

Unfortunately it is not in GW's interest to stop that particular trick. If people buy a small allied detachment then GW sell more models and another codex. If they are lucky, the owning player may even turn the allies into a full army in the future.

GrandmasterWang
10-06-2015, 14:24
What is the cheapest the formation to get the free transports can be?

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A.T.
10-06-2015, 14:35
What is the cheapest the formation to get the free transports can be?982pts unarmed for 8 transports, 1042 for 10 transports.

Sedral
10-06-2015, 15:01
Talking about the Raven Guard, i see some cool stuff to do with our beloved 3rd company captain. Infiltrate some vanguards (with their low cost stuff), combine your 1st turn Shrouded with shrike's Stealth rule, and you have your vanguard squad just in front of your opponent, with +3 to their cover save (so probably a 2+ save), and in position for multi-charges without malus (yup they keep that too) the next turn.

Spiney Norman
10-06-2015, 15:21
Unfortunately it is not in GW's interest to stop that particular trick. If people buy a small allied detachment then GW sell more models and another codex. If they are lucky, the owning player may even turn the allies into a full army in the future.

They could still allow allied detachments without letting people abuse the system to give LRs/DE raiders to units that should not have access to assault transports. That's how they've chosen to work it in the HH game and it works so much better than the gamey shenannery that characterises almost every game of 40k.

AngryAngel
10-06-2015, 20:10
I will wait and see how this free transport thing shakes out, if it ends up game breaking, I'll be the first to admit it.

A.T.
10-06-2015, 20:21
I will wait and see how this free transport thing shakes out, if it ends up game breaking, I'll be the first to admit it.I think that one boils down to whether you can put 6 tactical squads to any good use.

I know one player locally who routinely took a bunch of them who will now be looking at 500 odd points of free razorbacks ... then again he didn't win many games.

AngryAngel
10-06-2015, 20:50
There is the rub, while free stuff OMG !!! Seems good, I'm wondering if the units taken will end up really making much of a difference vs the power that some books can bring to the field, namely Necrons and Eldar, or will it simply be good enough to over run the middle of the road armies out there.

Saunders
10-06-2015, 20:57
Can't wait to read another round of "your grass is greener!" /s

Looks like a fun codex, so far.

duffybear1988
10-06-2015, 20:58
Free vehicles for everybody. In a minute GW are going to struggle to hide the desperate cash grabs.

Navar
10-06-2015, 21:16
There is some nice options to bring in vehicles for the AdMech here. The Techmarine +3 tank squadrons for example seems to fit in just right.
I am actually pondering the Land Raider formation (IH chapter Tactics obviously) for my Skitarii.

While I agree that Land Raiders are fluffy for Skitarii, I don't think that it matters that legion from which you draw them (though Iron Hands seems to be a great way to go (again from a fluff prospective.) I don't think that Iron Hands Land Raiders would receive any benefit over any other chapter's Land Raiders because IIRC Land Raiders don't have don't have the "Chapter Tactics" rule.

I think that IWND only applies to Dreadnoughts. (But I could be wrong.)

And speaking of Iron Hands, why is it that GW seems to constantly forget that this FIRST FOUNDING chapter exists? I don't mind that Ultramarines receive like 10 characters, I just question why GW hasn't decided to give Iron Hands 1 or 2???

Also what is up with Blood Angels and Dark Angels getting awesome upgrade sprues while Iron Hands can't even get a decent set of Bionic bits without having to go to third party manufacturers????

MagicHat
10-06-2015, 21:31
While I agree that Land Raiders are fluffy for Skitarii, I don't think that it matters that legion from which you draw them (though Iron Hands seems to be a great way to go (again from a fluff prospective.) I don't think that Iron Hands Land Raiders would receive any benefit over any other chapter's Land Raiders because IIRC Land Raiders don't have don't have the "Chapter Tactics" rule.

I think that IWND only applies to Dreadnoughts. (But I could be wrong.)

And speaking of Iron Hands, why is it that GW seems to constantly forget that this FIRST FOUNDING chapter exists? I don't mind that Ultramarines receive like 10 characters, I just question why GW hasn't decided to give Iron Hands 1 or 2???

Also what is up with Blood Angels and Dark Angels getting awesome upgrade sprues while Iron Hands can't even get a decent set of Bionic bits without having to go to third party manufacturers????

Yeah, I posted that before I had read the new chapter tactics for myself.
Maybe the Mechanicum Land Raider will be ported to 40K and I will have some self-repairing techno LR anyway.

Emperor Karl Franz
10-06-2015, 23:08
There is the rub, while free stuff OMG !!! Seems good, I'm wondering if the units taken will end up really making much of a difference vs the power that some books can bring to the field, namely Necrons and Eldar, or will it simply be good enough to over run the middle of the road armies out there.

Yeah, I came up with an 1850 list last night to get swarms of free drop pods, and that aside, I wasn't particularly impressed by that list. I'm sure I could come up with a Space Marine list that can steamroll the one I came up with, and all without free transports.

MrKeef
11-06-2015, 01:52
Also what is up with Blood Angels and Dark Angels getting awesome upgrade sprues while Iron Hands can't even get a decent set of Bionic bits without having to go to third party manufacturers????

Because BA, DA, SW and UM are all much much more popular than Iron Hands. Also, a proper bionics set would need multiple arms and legs while these upgrade kits were mostly shoulder pads with one or two weapons.

Although it is a travesty that there's no official bionics kit, not even from FW, I agree with you. Off the top of my head I can only think of 4 official bionics pieces which is nowhere near enough. (2 from old IH upgrade then Marine Captain kit and FW character upgrade kit.)

Losing Command
11-06-2015, 01:58
I've also tried writing some lists with the Gladius strike force, but once you have the demi-company and one auxillary choice with minimum upgrades you're pretty much already at 1850... And the options you have with just the one auxillary formation didn't leave me that impressed. Most things require a selection of at least 3 units when 1 used to be enough, 2 could be overkill with the old book. Sure, everything has ObSec but you're not gonna kill a whole lot and not stay on the board any longer than with the old codex either.

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2015, 04:07
Because BA, DA, SW and UM are all much much more popular than Iron Hands. Also, a proper bionics set would need multiple arms and legs while these upgrade kits were mostly shoulder pads with one or two weapons.

Well, an Iron Hands upgrade sprue would help a lot. 10 shoulder pads, a back banner, a chest-piece or two(partially bionic), 3-4 bionic heads, a bolter, bolt pistol, and thunder hammer with bionic hands attached. Not a ton of stuff, but a start on bionics.

Althenian Armourlost
11-06-2015, 04:17
If I was playing marines I would be taking a full Iron Hands company, using 5-man squads in razorbacks. Getting 10 IWND lascannon razorbacks for free would be completely epic.

Kburn
11-06-2015, 04:26
Book looks more or less the same. The 1 broken formation requires buying 10 tanks, and even then, can be easily defeated by eldar. Don't think the meta will change much, if at all.

Pretty disappointed with the extent of changes to terminators and dreadnoughts. One got cheaper, but far from enough. The other gained a few attacks, but did not address the problem of suvivability. Both will continue to be fringe choices, taken by fluffy players. I would rather have T5 or 2W for the terminators, than the point cut, and upgrading the dread to a MC, or even a gargantuan creature, rather than a few more attacks.

Rest of the book is practically unchanged.

Losing Command
11-06-2015, 04:52
If I was playing marines I would be taking a full Iron Hands company, using 5-man squads in razorbacks. Getting 10 IWND lascannon razorbacks for free would be completely epic.

Only characters and vehicles with Chapter Tactics get the IWND, it no longer aplies to all vehicles in your IH army. And you still pay points for the upgrade to lascannon.
I also had this, first I was very excited, but after writing out all the armylists I had in mind I found that you have to do some serious cutting to make the points fit and are often left with a bunch of 5 man squads with few upgrades. The mandatory auxiliary formation makes fielding a full company even more difficult to field effectively with average point games in mind.

Emperor Karl Franz
11-06-2015, 05:10
Making a Dreadnought a Gargantuan Creature wouldn't be justified. It's nowhere near big enough. Although yeah, more survivability would be nice. An Invulnerable Save of some kind would have been a welcome addition. Terminators are wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor, after all, so why not take a page off the Terminators and give the Dreadnought a 5+ Invulnerable Save? Front Armor 13 would be nice, too. The 4 Attacks are nice, but I doubt it'll be enough to make a regular Dreadnought a worthwhile addition to most armies.

Freman Bloodglaive
11-06-2015, 05:12
Smashfether still works, and an Iron Hand Chapter Master in a biker command squad has 4+ FnP along with his T5, IWND and Eternal Warrior.

While it's good that command squads don't require an HQ to take them, using one of the rare and precious elites choices is somewhat irritating.

Bike squads appear to be troops as long as an HQ has a bike, even if they're not five man strong now.

The First Company Taskforce are now basically Deathwing without mixed weapons.

We'll have to wait and see what Dark Angels get, but it would probably be fair enough for them to just say, "see Codex Space Marines".

Freman Bloodglaive
11-06-2015, 05:21
Actually taking a CAD led by a character on bike with multiple bike command squads and bike troops would be fine. If you want things like Sternguard you just make sure you have three or more squads and take them as a 1st Company Task Force. They don't use up your CAD slots and they're fearless to boot.

Kburn
11-06-2015, 05:24
Making a Dreadnought a Gargantuan Creature wouldn't be justified. It's nowhere near big enough. Although yeah, more survivability would be nice. An Invulnerable Save of some kind would have been a welcome addition. Terminators are wearing Tactical Dreadnought Armor, after all, so why not take a page off the Terminators and give the Dreadnought a 5+ Invulnerable Save? Front Armor 13 would be nice, too. The 4 Attacks are nice, but I doubt it'll be enough to make a regular Dreadnought a worthwhile addition to most armies.

Neither was wraithknights getting gargantuan, although I see your point. Probably 5++ with AV13 all round, 4HP, A5 is reasonable. Either way, both suffer from being too prolific, so their stats will not change much. Its a shame the 2 nicest and most prolific models in the range has been sideshows since 3rd edition.

insectum7
11-06-2015, 05:31
Neither was wraithknights getting gargantuan, although I see your point. Probably 5++ with AV13 all round, 4HP, A5 is reasonable. Either way, both suffer from being too prolific, so their stats will not change much. Its a shame the 2 nicest and most prolific models in the range has been sideshows since 3rd edition.

Well, Wraithknights do have about 5-10 times the mass of a Dreadnought, and stand taller than an Imperial Knight.

GrandmasterWang
11-06-2015, 05:33
I think the free transports cement this codex for sure as above mid tier.

Does anyone here play 2500 point games? That is where the free transport will imo make the most difference as you get so many freebees compare to most armies but still lots of points to add 'bite'

I like the Dreadnought buff.

Who do you guys think will be the most commonly fielded character now?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Emperor Karl Franz
11-06-2015, 05:42
Neither was wraithknights getting gargantuan, although I see your point.

IMO, it was. The Wraithknight is huge. Is there anything in this game which is bigger than a Wraithknight which isn't already a titan or Gargantuan Creature?


Probably 5++ with AV13 all round, 4HP, A5 is reasonable. Either way, both suffer from being too prolific, so their stats will not change much. Its a shame the 2 nicest and most prolific models in the range has been sideshows since 3rd edition.

Front Armor 13 should be the norm, at least, with at least Rear Armor 11, while Ironclads could be Front Armor 14. I think if a standard Dreadnought had Front/Side Armor 13, Rear Armor 11, a 5+ Invulnerable, and 4 Attacks, that'd be great. Improved shooting would be great, too. Back in 2nd edition Dreadnoughts carried superior versions of standard heavy weapons. Something like that under current rules would be fantastic.

insectum7
11-06-2015, 05:47
Who do you guys think will be the most commonly fielded character now?


I've been taking Calgar for funsies in my last couple games, but now he looks like a monster. I hope he still has God or War, it's been great to have complete discipline amongst the troops.

I think we'll definitely be seeing more of him. Vote for "greatest increase in use".

Emperor Karl Franz
11-06-2015, 06:14
He lost that ability, actually, along with Titanic Might. He can choose any Warlord Trait now, though.

insectum7
11-06-2015, 06:27
He lost that ability, actually, along with Titanic Might. He can choose any Warlord Trait now, though.

Reaaaaallly? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd trade the strike-at-initiative-Pfists for that.

On a related note, does Sicarius still have Rites of Battle?

Freman Bloodglaive
11-06-2015, 06:41
Yes, Sicarius still has Rites of Battle.

insectum7
11-06-2015, 06:45
Yes, Sicarius still has Rites of Battle.

Good to know, thanks!

He'll probably be hanging around my army then.

Althenian Armourlost
11-06-2015, 06:51
According to the GW news app this morning, marine supplementary codexes are still legal.

Losing Command
11-06-2015, 06:52
Also, I'll have to re-read the whole thing proper but it looked like Pedro's +1 attack zone now does stack with a chapterbanner. If that is really the case a unit of 10 honorguard with banner and Pedro hanging out in the neigbourhood would throw out ... 61 attacks when they charge. With power weapons :eek:

On the downside it's now just models, not units within 12"

Spiney Norman
11-06-2015, 08:36
IMO, it was. The Wraithknight is huge. Is there anything in this game which is bigger than a Wraithknight which isn't already a titan or Gargantuan Creature?



Front Armor 13 should be the norm, at least, with at least Rear Armor 11, while Ironclads could be Front Armor 14. I think if a standard Dreadnought had Front/Side Armor 13, Rear Armor 11, a 5+ Invulnerable, and 4 Attacks, that'd be great. Improved shooting would be great, too. Back in 2nd edition Dreadnoughts carried superior versions of standard heavy weapons. Something like that under current rules would be fantastic.

So tell me, after giving regular dreads the stats of a Contemptor what are you going to do with the actual Contemptor profile? A14 on the front is a little ridiculous for a Dred, they're not walking Landraiders after all.


According to the GW news app this morning, marine supplementary codexes are still legal.

Wow that is unexpected, are they still for sale? I guess Eldar got kind of stitched up with Iyanden then...

Emperor Karl Franz
11-06-2015, 08:42
So tell me, after giving regular dreads the stats of a Contemptor what are you going to do with the actual Contemptor profile? A14 on the front is a little ridiculous for a Dred, they're not walking Landraiders after all.

The Contemptor's more along the lines of how a Dreadnought should be armored, but yeah. If it's upgraded to 14, so what? If anything should be a walking Land Raider, at least from the front, it should be the toughest examples of Dreadnoughts. They're supposed to be rare and powerful relics housing their greatest heroes, after all. The things should be survivable.

duffybear1988
11-06-2015, 08:52
I'm actually pretty happy with the dreadnought change. I've always run one in my SW army with a twin lascannon and powerfist and used him to sit back on an objective with my long fangs and normally he's one of the last things to die as the swarming rhinos, long fangs, land speeders and thunderwolf lords are being shot at. If they offered me 4 attacks base I would bite their hand off.

Navar
11-06-2015, 14:14
Well, an Iron Hands upgrade sprue would help a lot. 10 shoulder pads, a back banner, a chest-piece or two(partially bionic), 3-4 bionic heads, a bolter, bolt pistol, and thunder hammer with bionic hands attached. Not a ton of stuff, but a start on bionics.

I don't even think it would have to be that fancy.

10 Shoulder Pads, 4 arms, a Thunder hammer with a bionic hand, a bionic head, and a couple of other things would be more than enough to get going, and would be easily worth $13.30.

Games Workshop even highlighted the fluff synergy between Iron Hands and the Cult Mechanicus, yet didn't actually produce anything to support the other chapters.

sturguard
11-06-2015, 14:26
Based on what I've read of the codex leaks at the points size I play (1500-2000) I doubt I'll see any change in SM armies at all except maybe devastators as the new grav platform instead of centurions.

Where this codex does get interesting is at larger games, the SM formations seem to be pitched at a higher points value than the Eldar or Necron ones, by my calculations you'll struggle to get the Gladius and one of the more meaningful auxiliaries in at 1500 once you start handing out special/heavy weapons, something both Necrons and Eldar can accomplish easily. Plus the fact that the formation bonus for the Gladius is pretty similar to the CAD (obsec) I estimate that most folks won't bother with it until games get quite a bit larger and they can bring the more interesting formations. The same is true in the mass-squadroning of vehicles, the codex is quite clearly designed to make you want to bring more stuff.

Overall I'd say the power level of the book is about the same as it was, pretty level with Tau at the top of the main pack, but three or four rungs below Crondar.

I guess it depends on whether you need a 10 man squad in order to get your free transport. 2 Editions ago, SM ruled the tournament scene with the 5 man tac squad with Las/Plas Razorback. If you can purchase a 5 man tac squad with lascannon for say 90 pts, and then get a Las/Plas Razorback for 20 pts, that is insane. So for 110 pts you have 2 lascannons (which effectively have split fire) and a twin linked plasmagun, 5 wound and 3 Hps- not to mention chapter tactics which twin link the one lascannon, or if you are IHs give the tank IWND. Now if that was a one off that would be fine, but the fact that you could have 5 squads for 550 pts is unbelievably good. Remember all those hate forums dedicated to the Wraithknight with dual wraithcannons- how long do you think those will be on the board with that 10 Lascannon/10 plasma shots for a mere 550 pts? Of course the Cents got a priced reduction on Lascannons, so again, you might not need that many free razorbacks to drop them. I would say people are being a bit biased on how good some of the new toys are, I fully expect SMs to be able to take down the best eldar lists as long as they aren't bringing a Titan or superheavy on the board. Thunderfire cannons were already good (they really didnt need a buff) but giving them +1 BS to take three didnt seem warranted, they should have no problem lighting up and destroying lots of Guardian blobs or jetbike squads. I guess the biggest difference between myself and others is I will say- good for SMs. Hopefully GW continues putting out codexes where most of the units are competitive and balanced.

A.T.
11-06-2015, 15:04
If you can purchase a 5 man tac squad with lascannon for say 90 pts, and then get a Las/Plas Razorback for 20 pts, that is insane.It's a bit like the guardian formation where you purchase 72 points of infantry and get 50 points of free weapons. One the one hand it's a lot of free stuff, on the other hand it's a lot of tactical marines.

I don't know if it would help in the face of an all-out eldar list but you could certainly wind up sororitas players by outnumbering them with mechanised marines - the codex seems to have a step up on a lot of the lesser books.

Navar
11-06-2015, 16:35
not to mention chapter tactics which twin link the one lascannon, or if you are IHs give the tank IWND.

Chapter Tactics Iron hands no longer gives the Tank IWND as written.

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2015, 18:39
Chapter Tactics Iron hands no longer gives the Tank IWND as written.

That's arguable.

insectum7
11-06-2015, 19:06
I guess it depends on whether you need a 10 man squad in order to get your free transport. 2 Editions ago, SM ruled the tournament scene with the 5 man tac squad with Las/Plas Razorback. If you can purchase a 5 man tac squad with lascannon for say 90 pts, and then get a Las/Plas Razorback for 20 pts, that is insane. So for 110 pts you have 2 lascannons (which effectively have split fire) and a twin linked plasmagun, 5 wound and 3 Hps- not to mention chapter tactics which twin link the one lascannon, . . .

Thinking Tac with Heavy Grav Cannon + Razorback for a few points more is dirtier. Still don't have the codex though, so put a disclaimer on that.

AngryAngel
11-06-2015, 19:27
Internet demons, no worries the warp storm is gone now.

AngryAngel
11-06-2015, 19:28
I guess it depends on whether you need a 10 man squad in order to get your free transport. 2 Editions ago, SM ruled the tournament scene with the 5 man tac squad with Las/Plas Razorback. If you can purchase a 5 man tac squad with lascannon for say 90 pts, and then get a Las/Plas Razorback for 20 pts, that is insane. So for 110 pts you have 2 lascannons (which effectively have split fire) and a twin linked plasmagun, 5 wound and 3 Hps- not to mention chapter tactics which twin link the one lascannon, or if you are IHs give the tank IWND. Now if that was a one off that would be fine, but the fact that you could have 5 squads for 550 pts is unbelievably good. Remember all those hate forums dedicated to the Wraithknight with dual wraithcannons- how long do you think those will be on the board with that 10 Lascannon/10 plasma shots for a mere 550 pts? Of course the Cents got a priced reduction on Lascannons, so again, you might not need that many free razorbacks to drop them. I would say people are being a bit biased on how good some of the new toys are, I fully expect SMs to be able to take down the best eldar lists as long as they aren't bringing a Titan or superheavy on the board. Thunderfire cannons were already good (they really didnt need a buff) but giving them +1 BS to take three didnt seem warranted, they should have no problem lighting up and destroying lots of Guardian blobs or jetbike squads. I guess the biggest difference between myself and others is I will say- good for SMs. Hopefully GW continues putting out codexes where most of the units are competitive and balanced.

Have we even heard you can take a heavy at 5 man or is that just a hopeful wish ? Second, it has been mentioned a time or two that the only vehicles that will have it will not die are ones with the chapter tactics, which as far as I hear is dreads ( Though apparently that is arguable ? So I guess we'll see soon ). Third people have already pointed it out and the price points for what your talking about, taking it all, will be quite high ending around 1850. Though I would say at high points 2500 and above, the free transport thing does get nicer. However it also makes you take units, and lots of them that are not exactly considered awe inspiring.

This whole posting is out of control day dreaming mixed with out of control expectation. I will say again, the tank special rules for squads come off as cheap gimmicks as they aren't very robust and before I'm going to jump up and down with joy, I'll want to see the devil in the details and then we'll see how it shakes out. I appreciate the excitement but I'm not about to assume the new marine dex will topple the Crondar menace just yet.

Saunders
11-06-2015, 19:42
According to the GW news app this morning, marine supplementary codexes are still legal.

Anyone care to elaborate on this?

I would love to hear a precident set for the other Supplements, since GW never addressed what became of the Iyanden Supplement and it will only become more of a question when Codex: Tau gets updated.

Navar
11-06-2015, 19:48
That's arguable.

Can you please explain the argument?

Asher
11-06-2015, 20:54
Can you please explain the argument?

I don't think there is any. Vehicle needs CT. Dreadnoughts are the only ones with CT. Ergo, only dreadnoughts get INWD.

And I'm a IH player!

MrKeef
11-06-2015, 20:59
Can you please explain the argument?

The chapter tactics says "the vehicle" and not "all vehicles" have IWND. Only dreadnoughts have the chapter tactics rules, not all tanks.

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2015, 21:16
The chapter tactics says "the vehicle" and not "all vehicles" have IWND. Only dreadnoughts have the chapter tactics rules, not all tanks.

"Iron Hands characters and vehicles have the It Will Not Die special rule"

The issue is what exactly constitutes an Iron Hands vehicle, if the construction of the sentence even specifies Iron Hands vehicles or if it is Iron Hands characters and generic vehicles, and if it was meant to only be for dreadnoughts, why they say vehicles and not dreadnoughts in the CT.

It's an issue for the rules thread, as is the "Where does Chronus go" and "Can a Sword Brother take a neophyte" issues that are in the new book.

Navar
11-06-2015, 21:46
"Iron Hands characters and vehicles have the It Will Not Die special rule"

The issue is what exactly constitutes an Iron Hands vehicle, if the construction of the sentence even specifies Iron Hands vehicles or if it is Iron Hands characters and generic vehicles, and if it was meant to only be for dreadnoughts, why they say vehicles and not dreadnoughts in the CT.

It's an issue for the rules thread, as is the "Where does Chronus go" and "Can a Sword Brother take a neophyte" issues that are in the new book.

From the rules about Chapter Tactics on the previous page, I must admit that I can see the argument. You must select a chapter even if you don't have any models/units/characters with the Chapter Tactics special rule.

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2015, 21:58
From the rules about Chapter Tactics on the previous page, I must admit that I can see the argument. You must select a chapter even if you don't have any models/units/characters with the Chapter Tactics special rule.

Like a Suppression Force or Land Raider formation allied to another army.

Giving Chapter tactics to Dreadnoughts vs all vehicles seems more to allow Dreadnoughts to benefit from combat doctrines (which are based on chapter tactics) rather than all vehicles (though Ultramarines specifies that Doctrines affect all Ultramarine models which again is a bit of a mess).

MajorWesJanson
11-06-2015, 22:07
You need the full company to get the free vehicles.
You can run MSU full company for the vehicles, but you end up paying quite a few points for not-super-efficient models, unlike a Windrider host.

Eldarsif
11-06-2015, 22:14
You need the full company to get the free vehicles.
You can run MSU full company for the vehicles, but you end up paying quite a few points for not-super-efficient models, unlike a Windrider host.

It would be about 850 points or so. Then you'd be getting extra over 500 extra points if you take the expensive dedicated transport. Then you'd probably upgrade some of the things so you will probably be spending around 1200-1300 points total for what would end up being about 1850 points of an army while being able to add 550-650 points worth of other units(most likely grav centurions).

Losing Command
12-06-2015, 00:03
You also HAVE to take an auxiliary formation alongside the battle company/demi company. The cheapest is probably the scout one, but 3 bare-bone squads of scouts still limit your options even further. The free transport vehicles sound cool in theory but the units you have to field in order to get them didn't get a point reduction and had valid reasons why people didn't field them in large numbers to begin with.

Latro_
12-06-2015, 00:52
With the free transport thing, takes the devs as 5 devs with 2 grav cannons in a rhino? 145pts (mandatory cherub) stay still 10 shots or 6 when they move. Can make 3/5 of those bs5 and re-roll the others once with the cherub.

No SaP either so ye in for a suprise if you charge that rhino :D

Pretty mobile cheap unit that is very dangerous

Also also subtle reading but i'm pretty sure ALL units in the demi company have objective secured... so those devs and all ye free transports are claimin them objs!

Eldarsif
12-06-2015, 01:10
With the free transport thing, takes the devs as 5 devs with 2 grav cannons in a rhino? 145pts (mandatory cherub) stay still 10 shots or 6 when they move. Can make 3/5 of those bs5 and re-roll the others once with the cherub.

No SaP either so ye in for a suprise if you charge that rhino :D

Pretty mobile cheap unit that is very dangerous

Also also subtle reading but i'm pretty sure ALL units in the demi company have objective secured... so those devs and all ye free transports are claimin them objs!

I'd probably put the dev in drop pods with grav cannons to take out what is needed wherever I need to. Plus the drop pod are rather solid objective camping units in my experience.

Emperor Karl Franz
12-06-2015, 02:43
You also HAVE to take an auxiliary formation alongside the battle company/demi company. The cheapest is probably the scout one, but 3 bare-bone squads of scouts still limit your options even further. The free transport vehicles sound cool in theory but the units you have to field in order to get them didn't get a point reduction and had valid reasons why people didn't field them in large numbers to begin with.

The Formation with two Whirlwinds and a Land Raider, while slightly more expensive, is probably a lot more useful than those barebones Scouts would be, so I'd go with that.

But yeah, the more I think about the Battle Company rule, the more I think it's something I'm going to have to save for 2500 point games or greater. I'm not exactly impressed with what I have to get in order to get those free transports. It might be something if you also got the weapon upgrade option for free, but you don't.

Freman Bloodglaive
12-06-2015, 06:03
The only formation that interests me is the 1st Company one, and that's only because it will give me the ability to take Terminators, Sternguard or Vanguard outside the normal force organization chart, freeing up slots for other units.

insectum7
12-06-2015, 07:49
The Formation with two Whirlwinds and a Land Raider, while slightly more expensive, is probably a lot more useful than those barebones Scouts would be, so I'd go with that.

I think you mean Land Speeder. :)

herohammer
12-06-2015, 09:01
Anyone care to elaborate on this?

I would love to hear a precident set for the other Supplements, since GW never addressed what became of the Iyanden Supplement and it will only become more of a question when Codex: Tau gets updated.
Essentially they said that Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra are compatible with the new marine codex but Iyanded is not compatible with the new eldar codex as the main units involved changed too much in the new book. Pretty much they set no precedent

Treadhead_1st
12-06-2015, 09:02
I am really not sure about the Gladius Strike Force as I am really unimpressed with the Auxillary Formations that you are obliged to pick one of. Not for a lack of power - some of them seem insane - but simply because they are so large/expensive.

The armies I ran before were pretty much a Demi-company (Captain & Command Squad, Venerable Dreadnought, 2x Tactical Squads, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad), but to that base I like to add either a Terminator Squad; a Storm Talon; a Librarian or Master of the Forge Techmarine; or a mix of armour depending on points limits, squad sizes and so on. This is pretty much impossible with the Auxillary Formations. With Eldar Codex, for example, some of the Formations were of a single unit (1x Ranger Squad, 1x Wraithlord/-fighter/-knight) which meant that you could have a lot more customisation. For the Space Marines you are looking at an additional 3 (old terminology) units minimum, more if you want the best benefits (for example, taking a 3rd Whirlwind to get pinning & shred in the Whirlwind/Speeder formation).

In order to have the flexibility to add a unit to cover your weaknesses (or even to reach certain points-values without unnecessary bloat) you need to stick to the CAD, which given the excellent benefits the Gladius provides seems to be really hampering yourself.

Latro_
12-06-2015, 09:26
Yea i'd say its not that bad as you'd only be losing out on the tac doctrine but the fact they are all obsec for your army you really want a demi company. Could always take a demi and slash out on some scouts for a combine arms, not a bad little unit now they have bs/ws 4.

Emperor Karl Franz
12-06-2015, 10:50
Yeah, that's a huge relief. I always thought it was absurd that Space Marines were handing out sniper rifles to the most incompetent shooters in their force. I'm so happy to see that's no longer the case.

Zaszz
12-06-2015, 19:11
The oldest living space marine deserves it.


I think the oldest is actually the blood angels chapter master, who was alive during the great crusades, I think his name is Dante.

duffybear1988
12-06-2015, 19:26
Isn't Bjorn the fell handed older?

Arthanor
12-06-2015, 19:34
I think the oldest is actually the blood angels chapter master, who was alive during the great crusades, I think his name is Dante.

Alive during the great crusade?! Dante is supposedly the oldest, but at 1000 years old, not 10 000...

Bjorn (and maybe a few other dreads?) are the only survivors of the HH, but they are not really alive and well..

Perversor
12-06-2015, 19:40
Alive during the great crusade?! Dante is supposedly the oldest, but at 1000 years old, not 10 000...

Bjorn (and maybe a few other dreads?) are the only survivors of the HH, but they are not really alive and well..

And due Chapterhouse legal issues GW decided to chop out of existence the oldest Living space marine due lacking a miniature

Cleutin keeper of Sanguinius shroud, The oldest Veteran Sergeant within the Blood Angels the rumours claim he was the Sergeant of the Scout unit where Dante served when he joined the chapter.

sturguard
12-06-2015, 20:23
Have we even heard you can take a heavy at 5 man or is that just a hopeful wish ? Second, it has been mentioned a time or two that the only vehicles that will have it will not die are ones with the chapter tactics, which as far as I hear is dreads ( Though apparently that is arguable ? So I guess we'll see soon ). Third people have already pointed it out and the price points for what your talking about, taking it all, will be quite high ending around 1850. Though I would say at high points 2500 and above, the free transport thing does get nicer. However it also makes you take units, and lots of them that are not exactly considered awe inspiring.

This whole posting is out of control day dreaming mixed with out of control expectation. I will say again, the tank special rules for squads come off as cheap gimmicks as they aren't very robust and before I'm going to jump up and down with joy, I'll want to see the devil in the details and then we'll see how it shakes out. I appreciate the excitement but I'm not about to assume the new marine dex will topple the Crondar menace just yet.

AngryAngel- I usually agree with your posts, but not so this time. You can easily play an 1850 list with 2 demi companies. I quickly made up a list today
6x 5 man tac squad with lascannon
2x 6 man dev squads with 4 MLs
1x 1 land speeder
1x 1 land speeder
1 Chaplain
1 Captain
My army builder isnt up to date so the costs are more than they would be in the nex codex and this prices out at 1108, add in 8 razorbacks for 160 pts giving you plenty of points leftover. You want a bike squad for your Captain, take out a LS and add them. You want your devs to have gravcannons and put them in drop pods, again plenty of points. Heck you could add the other formation with the techmarine and 3 vindicators/predators in. The sky is not falling, I just want people to acknowledge this is more than a "little good"- I mean come on 8 Razorbacks for 160 pts- folks were worried about Wraithknights- what can 160 pts of razorbacks kill in one turn?

AngryAngel
12-06-2015, 20:23
I think you mean Land Speeder. :)

Are you telling me a land raider isn't the perfect spotter for some WWs ?


Essentially they said that Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra are compatible with the new marine codex but Iyanded is not compatible with the new eldar codex as the main units involved changed too much in the new book. Pretty much they set no precedent

An odd ruling but goes to show even they realize the new codex was a marginal change.




Isn't Bjorn the fell handed older?

I thought so, but then they seem to make up who the oldest is as they go along and in fact only in warhammer is older always better.


Edit: @Sturguard Once I have my copy of the book, I'll run the numbers and like I said before, if I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. However I'm as of right now, not convinced. The units you need to load up on aren't really that good,as well a lot has happened since MSU marines the like you brought up were near top of the pile. So we'll see how the force you'd need to make actually ends up vs the power builds.

I still think the cost for putting it out is quite high, with limited choice in effective units. That I can only imagine is to move transports from store shelves. I appreciate you usually are on my side, it is nice to know and I anxiously await seeing if I'm wrong or right on this. Consider our disagreement a friendly wager.

Saunders
12-06-2015, 21:05
So they specifically said no for Iyanden?

insectum7
12-06-2015, 21:59
Are you telling me a land raider isn't the perfect spotter for some WWs ?


In a way it's great, since it's completely immune to Whirlwinds unlike the Land Speeder, and Crusaders and Redeemers are supposed to be up in the enemy's face anyways.

But no, I don't think it's part of the formation.

sturguard
12-06-2015, 22:30
Are you telling me a land raider isn't the perfect spotter for some WWs ?



An odd ruling but goes to show even they realize the new codex was a marginal change.





I thought so, but then they seem to make up who the oldest is as they go along and in fact only in warhammer is older always better.


Edit: @Sturrguard Once I have my copy of the book, I'll run the numbers and like I said before, if I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it. However I'm as of right now, not convinced. The units you need to load up on aren't really that good,as well a lot has happened since MSU marines the like you brought up were near top of the pile. So we'll see how the force you'd need to make actually ends up vs the power builds.

I still think the cost for putting it out is quite high, with limited choice in effective units. That I can only imagine is to move transports from store shelves. I appreciate you usually are on my side, it is nice to know and I anxiously await seeing if I'm wrong or right on this. Consider our disagreement a friendly wager.

AngryAngel- hey not everyone is going to agree on everything, but like I said, you usually express what I am thinking in a more eloquent manner. I would agree some of the units I listed aren't optimal, but you actually have a bit of flexibility.
Don't like the Devs- fine, take Dev Centurions instead- I dont think anyone can argue they aren't good. Heck with the price decrease in the lascannon ones, you dont have to shell out an arm and a leg and they are more resilient than standard devs.
Tac marines- hey they aren't bad. They have a lacannon or gravcannon- take the 35 pt drop pod instead of the razorback. Want 10 men inside, again you have around 700 pts to play with. Not to mention you can use the Tactical Doctrine for rerolls.
Bikes are generally regarded as good, I just listed the speeders, but if you want 2x5 bikes with 2 gravguns on each, you have the points for this.

Put the captain and the chaplain in a squad of centurions and make a mini death star, if nothing else you give them added survivability by using ICs you have to take.

In my opinion the Demi squad is actually pretty darn flexible, I mean you have plenty of options, the only thing you dont is for the 6 tac squads, and at 90 pts a pop for the most expensive heavy weapon, that is only a 540 pt tax.

Now- I agree with you on the "let's see how many drop pods, and razorback kits we can sell" theory from GW.

I also find it very ironic, that they are dumping Warhammer Fantasy because of too many kits, and they want the game to scale smaller and yet in 40k everything seems to be getting bigger and bigger. I wonder how long until GW pulls the plug on 40k in its current form and leaves us with a bunch of models we cant use in normal games (or cant fit in the case of the 8 razorbacks).

Flipmode
12-06-2015, 22:35
So they specifically said no for Iyanden?

Yes, the Iyanden supplement will not be compatible with Codex: Space Marines, sorry.

AngryAngel
12-06-2015, 23:30
AngryAngel- hey not everyone is going to agree on everything, but like I said, you usually express what I am thinking in a more eloquent manner. I would agree some of the units I listed aren't optimal, but you actually have a bit of flexibility.
Don't like the Devs- fine, take Dev Centurions instead- I dont think anyone can argue they aren't good. Heck with the price decrease in the lascannon ones, you dont have to shell out an arm and a leg and they are more resilient than standard devs.
Tac marines- hey they aren't bad. They have a lacannon or gravcannon- take the 35 pt drop pod instead of the razorback. Want 10 men inside, again you have around 700 pts to play with. Not to mention you can use the Tactical Doctrine for rerolls.
Bikes are generally regarded as good, I just listed the speeders, but if you want 2x5 bikes with 2 gravguns on each, you have the points for this.

Put the captain and the chaplain in a squad of centurions and make a mini death star, if nothing else you give them added survivability by using ICs you have to take.

In my opinion the Demi squad is actually pretty darn flexible, I mean you have plenty of options, the only thing you dont is for the 6 tac squads, and at 90 pts a pop for the most expensive heavy weapon, that is only a 540 pt tax.

Now- I agree with you on the "let's see how many drop pods, and razorback kits we can sell" theory from GW.

I also find it very ironic, that they are dumping Warhammer Fantasy because of too many kits, and they want the game to scale smaller and yet in 40k everything seems to be getting bigger and bigger. I wonder how long until GW pulls the plug on 40k in its current form and leaves us with a bunch of models we cant use in normal games (or cant fit in the case of the 8 razorbacks).

That actually has been concerning me a bit lately. The fact they would do this to warhammer fantasy, concerns me. I can handle them doing a good amount to 40k, I'm pretty heavily invested with both time and money as I think most of us on here are. However, if I hear actual comment on them doing an end times like event for 40k I won't be able to take that with anything less then sadness, annoyance and perhaps even anger. Having said that, from what I've heard of post end times fantasy I can only think they simply cashed out on fantasy pure and think 40k is the way to go so they are making fantasy more like 40k, in a fantasy setting as opposed to a whole different system. That being the case I doubt we'll see such an end for 40k at least within the foreseeable future.

I would agree as well that I'd be more on board with the viability of it if they could take a heavy and a special at 5 man, as in the old days.

Another issue with the power of the formation giving free things is the fact of how big your army then has to be, especially if such is proved to be effective. I don't know many players who have 8 or more pods and razorbacks or even really want to carry them around from game to game ( I do know plenty with a good number of rhinos because they came with nearly everything marine for a time. Pods take up much space and razorbacks have been niche vehicles at best, at least as far as I've seen ).

Also sets an odd act of getting models for nothing, started with getting extra rules or stat bonuses for nothing, then moving with the admech formation of getting all weapons and such for free, now out right giving marines free transports. Can you imagine if they make such a formation for guard with free chimeras or taurox/primes ? My god, it will literally put the mech wall of 5th edition to shame. For while I may be on the ropes of this marine formations power, with the much cheaper points of guard, a similar formation would just be gob smackingly good.

However that is all a little rampant speculation and more then a little off topic.

Eldarsif
13-06-2015, 00:19
I wouldn't be too worried about End Times shake up for 40k even though they might do an event. Fantasy was having a hard time getting new players and it was just a boardgame with a way too high of an entry due to models needed and cost. My guess it is probably hard to convince people to paint a ton of the same unit, a certain hurdle that some of us who own horde armies might recognize.

Ultimately it's just about money and Fantasy was apparently not doing well enough on that front. 40k seems to be much healthier, especially with all the computer games and board games coming out that are reinforcing the franchise.

Losing Command
13-06-2015, 04:06
And with 40k playing small games is very much still possible. There is no percentage system that makes you have to spend hundreds of points in order to even be able to field the mandatory HQ.

AngryAngel
13-06-2015, 04:32
Which is why fantasy may be getting a very 40k like make over, bad for those who loved fantasy as it was and it remains to be seen if it will be good for the fantasy system in general.

Eldarsif
13-06-2015, 12:41
Which is why fantasy may be getting a very 40k like make over, bad for those who loved fantasy as it was and it remains to be seen if it will be good for the fantasy system in general.

If Fantasy becomes more Skirmish friendly I might even try it. Have a small High Elf and Dark Elf Force I never bothered expanding because I just couldn't imagine painting legions of infantry(since I already have Orks and Tyranids).

Herkamer63
13-06-2015, 15:30
Yes, the Iyanden supplement will not be compatible with Codex: Space Marines, sorry.

SAY WHAAAAAAAAA'? Sorry, that was too tempting. As far as supplements, SoT and CR are compatible with the new codex. If you have digital copies of either one or both, they will have the updated rules ready to go, minus the cityfight and planetstrike rules. The reason why they did it, I think, was because there there were no major changes other than a few pieces of wargear here and there (but very little). With Iyanden, since Eldar had alot of changes , and they're not minor ones, GW had to pull the supplement from their store to, possibly, rework it. I don't know that for sure, but I'm not ruling anything out at this point. For now, SoT and CR remain, almost, unchanged. YAY! Twin-linked bolters at half the distance stay!

Lord_Crull
13-06-2015, 16:00
I was rather annoyed by the changes to different Chapter Tactic characters joining other Chapter Tactic characters. One of my favorite tactics was to use Tigurius in an Allied Detachment to join my Imperial Fist Devastators or Centurions for the various Divination buffs he could bring. Now if I did that my Devs would lose Tank Hunters. Although that is mostly offset by the fact that vanilla Librarians can now take Divination as well as the Librarius Conclave formation.

I am rather annoyed by the fact that the Gladius Strike Force doesn't have any single unit Auxiliary Choices like the previous books did. (Like the Deathmarks or Rangers), so one would have to take an additional formation for it. The Gladius Strike Force seems interesting,but I don't plan on using it since I always run Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics for my DIY Chapter. It seems that running Ultramarine Chapter Tactics is the best to stack on the various bonuses. I am rather annoyed that the one central detachment formation is more or less centered around the Ultramarines. I was interested in the mentions of Chapter-specific detachments that the previews mentioned such as the Dorn's Shield Detachment.

Bigman
13-06-2015, 18:08
Anyone seen the online bundle with rules? Sky hammer annilation force? The rules are mental...can see a lot of people enjoying that formation. roughly 1k points in size.

Rules

Composition
The Skyhammer Annihilation Force comprises:

Two Assault Squads with Jump Packs
Two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods
And no less than four special rules:
Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.
First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.
Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.
Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.

Application
Putting all these special rules together, we get:

An extra two Drop Pods arriving turn one, on top of whatever you're getting from Drop Pod Assault
Two* Devastator Squads that Pod in with Relentless—perfect for quad-grav squads
Two* Assault Squads that must Deep Strike in, but can then charge immediately with no risk of Overwatch, plus Hammer of Wrath and rerolls on charge range and To Hit and To Wound
This Formation is exceptionally powerful, because it comprises four valuable units with no tax, and effectively ignores all the detriments of Deep Strike!

Furthermore, the Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads rules also apply to this Formation. Remember that you can choose Chapter Tactics for this Formation independently of other Formations and Detachments in your army; I think Ultramarines would be best so your Devastators can reroll To Hit on the turn they arrive.

If you take 10-man squads then you can Combat Squad into up to four Assault and Devastator Squads respectively; this would allow you to semi-reliably Pin up to four enemy units, and tarpit up to four other enemy units in assault, on your first turn—potentially before your opponent has even had his first move!

Finally, if you're willing to gamble against the risk of Mishaps, you could load up an Assault Squad with attached Independent Characters with Jump Packs / Terminator Armour / another form of Deep Strike, then first turn charge with your deathstar without them ever being shot.

Malefactum
13-06-2015, 18:33
Totally broken. :D Me like. Win on turn one.

Bigman
13-06-2015, 18:38
It's fluff driven...how space marines are meant to work...drop on the enemy heads, charge our shooting and suppressing and then assault like a boss.

Problem is that it is massively op.

Eldarsif
13-06-2015, 18:45
The Skyhammer Annihiliation Force will really annihilate anything it touches. It's a very scary formation, probably one of the strongest in the game now.

Spiney Norman
13-06-2015, 20:01
That formation is utterly foul, worthy of the Eldar codex even.

xxvaderxx
13-06-2015, 20:07
To me its pretty clear that 6th edition supplements and so on, Errata or official statement not withstanding no they are not compatible/legal to be used with the current incarnation of the codex. They Clearly state "These pages present all of the alterations and additions to the rules given in Codex: Space Marines....". That codex is no longer legal, the current codex is "Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines".

Fle
13-06-2015, 21:44
That's a very very strong formation. It's good to see other books getting the Eldar treatment.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Ananiel
13-06-2015, 22:52
Yea, that formation as reported may have joined the banned list......

Ananiel

insectum7
13-06-2015, 23:04
And here I was all ready to use Librarians to make Devs Relentless for the first turn drop. . .


That's a very very strong formation. It's good to see other books getting the Eldar treatment.


IMO that formation puts the WK to shame.

But I agree that the new book is right up there.

harrybo
14-06-2015, 00:34
I haven't been able to read through this entire thread due to work etc. I'm very pleased with the changes and formation additions but I found something that stands out and hadn't seen it mentioned.

Techmarines have grown an extra wound and so have the Techmarine gunners, I love my Thunderfires so this is very welcome as is the ability to take three in one unit. BS 5 is great and all but I like to keep Tigurius nearby for Prescience to give them re-rolls to hit (nice) but where it gets mental is Tiggys warlord trait. Storm of fire is just broken now or am I missing something? Rending Thunderfires every turn!!!!

Anyone else think of anything which would benefit more from this ability? They just need to be within 12" of the warlord at the start of the shooting phase. Have fun with that one everyone!

Minsc
14-06-2015, 00:55
Anyone seen the online bundle with rules? Sky hammer annilation force? The rules are mental...can see a lot of people enjoying that formation. roughly 1k points in size.

Classic case of pay-to-win.

Also blatantly shows how GW's moneygrabbing. The formation is literally released on the same day as the codex, yet is mysteriously missing from said codex. :rolleyes:

insectum7
14-06-2015, 01:02
Storm of fire is just broken now or am I missing something? Rending Thunderfires every turn!!!!

Anyone else think of anything which would benefit more from this ability? They just need to be within 12" of the warlord at the start of the shooting phase. Have fun with that one everyone!

Oh man, that's pretty good. 465 points for three + Tiggy though



Classic case of pay-to-win.

Also blatantly shows how GW's moneygrabbing. The formation is literally released on the same day as the codex, yet is mysteriously missing from said codex. :rolleyes:

Pretty tasteless, I agree.

NoobLord
14-06-2015, 01:03
Classic case of pay-to-win.

Also blatantly shows how GW's moneygrabbing. The formation is literally released on the same day as the codex, yet is mysteriously missing from said codex. :rolleyes:

They've clearly given up and don't care about the game or their players anymore. Buy a codex for £35 that gets a major update in less than 24 hours - unbelievable.

insectum7
14-06-2015, 01:10
They've clearly given up and don't care about the game or their players anymore. Buy a codex for £35 that gets a major update in less than 24 hours - unbelievable.

After looking at the new codex I think they care for the game and players just fine, they just went and pulled a clumsy "release" as well.

Ananiel
14-06-2015, 01:16
This doesn't make sense. GW has to know that data-sheet was going to hit the open internet, and it uses models a lot of people have already, so how is this going to get cash to them?

But who would play against this? I know it one of the first questions I will be asking (Along w/ super heavies, D-weps, LOW, unbound) when I am trying to arrange a PUG. I have no interest in playing that stuff, so I won't. I would imagine others may feel the same but whatever.

Ananiel

Losing Command
14-06-2015, 04:19
I am glad the marine codex didn't get the Eldar treatment (Str D all over the place, heavy-weapon spamming troops, point reductions and extra rules all over the place) so I won't have any problem getting a game against anybody :) That pay-to-win formation is rediculus, but since I'm not using formations out of principle so that won't be an issue. Already discovered a bunch of new things I want to try (Dreadnought squadron charging with Pedro kantor nearby ... oh my) but I do hope we get more than 2 years out of it this time.

MajorWesJanson
14-06-2015, 05:49
To me its pretty clear that 6th edition supplements and so on, Errata or official statement not withstanding no they are not compatible/legal to be used with the current incarnation of the codex. They Clearly state "These pages present all of the alterations and additions to the rules given in Codex: Space Marines....". That codex is no longer legal, the current codex is "Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines".

Read the side of the book. It's still codex space marines while eldar is now codex craft world's on the book spine.

Flipmode
14-06-2015, 09:44
I have never heard of this formation and will not accept its existence unless a datasheet is provided. ;)

murgel2006
14-06-2015, 11:33
That formation is utterly foul, worthy of the Eldar codex even.

Frankly, the Eldar codex has no single formation with that kind of power. IMO


I have never heard of this formation and will not accept its existence unless a datasheet is provided. ;)

Oh man people you all are cruel!
I was really hoping for another "bash it" threat of 150pages. You can not do that to me. Honestly, I mean SM can not be treated worse than eldar and eldar got the threat so SM deserve their own.... :evilgrin:

All that aside, I feel the codex will be very buy-worthy and have reserved some € for it.
The Skyhammer reads very fluffy and thus finds me in agreement with it (my BA will try that formation). I will say however as I always do. "With great power, comes ..." And I'm afraid the "kids" (read WAAC of any age) in the GW store will try to field whole armies of this formation.

Spiney Norman
14-06-2015, 15:27
Frankly, the Eldar codex has no single formation with that kind of power. IMO

Perhaps not, but given what a wraithknight can do for its point cost I'd say that it was equally as broken. As grotesque as that marine formation is, it's still pretty much a one-hit wonder, despite being woefully undercosted.



I was really hoping for another "bash it" threat of 150pages. You can not do that to me. Honestly, I mean SM can not be treated worse than eldar and eldar got the threat so SM deserve their own.... :evilgrin:

I doubt it, for a thread to go that long you have to have thoroughly entrenched positions on both sides of the debate, the Eldar thread lasted so long because there genuinely were people out there that wanted to argue that the Eldar book was perfectly balanced. It seems like marine players are far less defensive of their codex and are willing to call 'broken' when they see it.


All that aside, I feel the codex will be very buy-worthy and have reserved some € for it.
The Skyhammer reads very fluffy and thus finds me in agreement with it (my BA will try that formation). I will say however as I always do. "With great power, comes ..." And I'm afraid the "kids" (read WAAC of any age) in the GW store will try to field whole armies of this formation.

Given that the formations is only available if you buy the bundle, and is limited to something like 200 copies in total I don't think you need to worry about it particularly, just make it clear that you won't play against knock-off copies printed from the Internet. In a sense they did a favour not printing that formation in the codex because it makes it easier to refuse to play against it. In my view that makes it rather less aggregious than the wraith knight, which is totally codex legal and thus much harder to find a logical reason for avoiding.

itcamefromthedeep
14-06-2015, 15:27
So the skyhammer thing...

There's no guarantee that your assault marines will arrive on target (you'll probably want some of those Scout Bikes with locator beacons).

I can't help but think of some of my traditional Tyranid army setups, with Venomthropes and bubble wrap. Conventional heavy weapons fire without Ignores Cover has caused problems, but even 20 grav shots has a big chance of bouncing off a Tyrant & Guard unit in ruins with Shrouded. If they shoot there, then the assault marines will have a tough time getting in... and even if they do a Tyrant & Guard will chew those marines up, re-rolls or not (not, in this case), overwatch or not. They're Assault Marines, for God's sake.

This is in contrast to a game against a car park, where those assault marines can jump in and plant krak grenades on some important vehicles or assault four of those pesky scatterbike units while the Devastators wreck a Wraithknight or two. I'm not sure that the list will be able to handle Wraithknights number 3 and 4 and 5, but maybe it can. Maybe you just take the formation again (nothing about maximum squad sizes, right?).

---

The formation is a problem, for sure, but it has some pretty bad matchups and it's been a long time since Assault Marines impressed me.

Spiney Norman
14-06-2015, 15:38
So the skyhammer thing...

There's no guarantee that your assault marines will arrive on target (you'll probably want some of those Scout Bikes with locator beacons).

I can't help but think of some of my traditional Tyranid army setups, with Venomthropes and bubble wrap. Conventional heavy weapons fire without Ignores Cover has caused problems, but even 20 grav shots has a big chance of bouncing off a Tyrant & Guard unit in ruins with Shrouded. If they shoot there, then the assault marines will have a tough time getting in... and even if they do a Tyrant & Guard will chew those marines up, re-rolls or not (not, in this case), overwatch or not. They're Assault Marines, for God's sake.

This is in contrast to a game against a car park, where those assault marines can jump in and plant krak grenades on some important vehicles or assault four of those pesky scatterbike units while the Devastators wreck a Wraithknight or two. I'm not sure that the list will be able to handle Wraithknights number 3 and 4 and 5, but maybe it can. Maybe you just take the formation again (nothing about maximum squad sizes, right?).

---

The formation is a problem, for sure, but it has some pretty bad matchups and it's been a long time since Assault Marines impressed me.

Oh sure, it's pretty clear that the devs are the part of this formation everyone is upset about, drop-podding devs that can fire their grav cannons at full effectiveness they turn they arrive is utterly heinous, if you could have chosen to pod the assault marines too they might've been worth something, but even with the buffs they've been given they barely justify their points cost in my mind since the jump packs will scatter on DS. Assault marines are no more competitive now than they have been the last couple of editions, which is probably part of the reason why GW felt the need for this formation, if you're going to produce new models for a sub-par unit and keep the rules sub-par you'd better put out an ungodly formation to actually get people to buy the things.

hazmiter
14-06-2015, 16:00
The sky hammer formation is fluffy, but imho i feel that its one of those scorched earth style ones.
Use it once and steam roll, never get a game again. (And yes there will be some people making entire armies of sky hammer)......
Otherwise, taken as a singular supporting formation as part of a larger army, it could be fairly useable. Planet strike had a similar rule for DS and assault iirc.

Inquisitor Kallus
14-06-2015, 16:08
The sky hammer formation is fluffy, but imho i feel that its one of those scorched earth style ones.
Use it once and steam roll, never get a game again. (And yes there will be some people making entire armies of sky hammer)......
Otherwise, taken as a singular supporting formation as part of a larger army, it could be fairly useable. Planet strike had a similar rule for DS and assault iirc.

Indeed. I like the idea of it and it seems like a cool fluffy formation but is easily abusable. I dont see why they needed to give 'so' many bonuses to the units, I think SNP for the devs and the charging and mbe re rolling to hit for the assault marines would have still been good

Asura Varuna
14-06-2015, 16:54
Skyhammer formation looks gross. At least it's a formation though, and therefore easy to ban rather than a bunch of unit choices in the core of the codex.

With the devs able to combat squad and force pinning on up to 4 units (with a very high chance of success against most armies), looks like you can happily cripple almost any army on your turn 1 with very little counterplay. Bubble wrapping is all good and well, but when your 4 most important shooters get pinned and assaulted before you even get to pick up a tape measure there's really not much to do. Looking at that in comparison to my Tau list, I can't see many ways not to simply lose on turn 1...

hazmiter
14-06-2015, 17:14
^ thats why i said as part of a larger army.
As an example, in an old school sized apoc game at 4000 Pts, that formation wont make too much of a dent, if its the ONLY sky hammer formation in use, so 0-1 formation basically. Where that formation WILL hurt, is in 750-1500 point games........ Personally, if i ever even decided that buying 2 drop pods was worth my time (im a foot slogger, more bodies, more guns), it would be used in a large scale game, 2500 points or more, and only one of that formation, it wont make much impact in theory as i stick to HB and plas can for devs, and my assault squads are naked, no upgrades at all. But in terms of fluff, and sheer first turn distraction, it would be viable and grant me time to manoeuvre more specialised units into positions.
In a way, its not so different from being the attacker in planet strike, except your resricted to 2 assault squads that can potentially attack turn one, rather than a teleport spam assault terminator army.

Tyberos
14-06-2015, 18:06
I have to admit, the book turned out better than what I was expecting, although my expectations were quite low to begin with. Page 68 to 93 seemed like very rushed padding based on the quality of the artwork they used to portray marine colour schemes. The Gladius Strike formation was a good idea as that is how I've imagined marines to be organised, even if they did put already existing dataslates in there as formations. Aside from that the only real bitter taste in the mouth is their insistance on releaseing the Skyhammer formation in a web-store exclusive bundle. They already updated a book within 21 months with minimal changes aside from formations, and obvious padding, so they really shouldn't be cutting things out of it to sell seperately.

I expect I'll be fielding a Demi-Company quite regularly with either 1st Company, Scouts, or Armour, alongside a Combined Arms detachment for any Forgeworld units I want to use. All in all, not a bad effort but I do hope this book lasts longer than two years, three would be about right.

Vaktathi
14-06-2015, 18:22
The book largely would have been pretty allright, but the formations (particularly the web-store Skyhammer formation), inclusion of Grav Cannons (with Grav Amps of course...) as a heavy weapon, and the ability to take Thunderfire Cannons in units of 3 with W2 Techmarine crew now, has made it rather silly.

Grav Cannons just make every other weapon obsolete, barring possibly Lascannons for long range AT. Yeah, they're expensive, but they're absolutely worth it. Coupled with the Skyhammer formation they're absolutely amongst the most absurdly abusive things in this game. Formations, much like with other books, simply allow for ridiculous army building shenanigans and free buffs for doing so in the process.

What I think has been particularly underrated however are TFC's. No longer can the techmarines be easily sniped since they have W2 now, and they can come in units of 3. If you thought Wyverns were bad, these are going to be the real scary artillery units methinks.

AngryAngel
14-06-2015, 19:38
That formation is utterly foul, worthy of the Eldar codex even.

It is pretty darn strong if used, however kept out of the book, for some reason.


That's a very very strong formation. It's good to see other books getting the Eldar treatment.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

So, now tacked on formations in web bundles are considered part of the codex proper ? The marine book, is not the Eldar codex and didn't really receive the Eldar treatment, it received a mild tweak by comparison. The web bundle data sheet is pretty amazing, but is not part of the book unless we're being very liberal with what is considered part of the codex now.



And here I was all ready to use Librarians to make Devs Relentless for the first turn drop. . .



IMO that formation puts the WK to shame.

But I agree that the new book is right up there.

I think the formation and WK are about even, though I'd say the WK still edges out being a standard in codex inclusion and the formation being a limited release that not everyone may be aware of.


After looking at the new codex I think they care for the game and players just fine, they just went and pulled a clumsy "release" as well.

I am loath to say GW cares about the players and the game after looking at much of what they do. Now if they came out and directly said the Eldar codex was a snafu, then I would agree.


I have never heard of this formation and will not accept its existence unless a datasheet is provided. ;)

I guess that would be too bad as I'm sure there will be plenty of copies floating around for those who seek the cheese.


Perhaps not, but given what a wraithknight can do for its point cost I'd say that it was equally as broken. As grotesque as that marine formation is, it's still pretty much a one-hit wonder, despite being woefully undercosted.



I doubt it, for a thread to go that long you have to have thoroughly entrenched positions on both sides of the debate, the Eldar thread lasted so long because there genuinely were people out there that wanted to argue that the Eldar book was perfectly balanced. It seems like marine players are far less defensive of their codex and are willing to call 'broken' when they see it.



Given that the formations is only available if you buy the bundle, and is limited to something like 200 copies in total I don't think you need to worry about it particularly, just make it clear that you won't play against knock-off copies printed from the Internet. In a sense they did a favour not printing that formation in the codex because it makes it easier to refuse to play against it. In my view that makes it rather less aggregious than the wraith knight, which is totally codex legal and thus much harder to find a logical reason for avoiding.

I agree, however refusing to play against copies of the formation is a little silly. I mean everyone could always just refuse to play against anyone or anything they field for whatever reason anyways, saying you won't because it is a " copy " of a formation sheet doesn't give anyone a more secure moral high ground to object, imo of course.


Indeed. I like the idea of it and it seems like a cool fluffy formation but is easily abusable. I dont see why they needed to give 'so' many bonuses to the units, I think SNP for the devs and the charging and mbe re rolling to hit for the assault marines would have still been good

Yes but then GW most go above and beyond expectation or allowance.

Fle
14-06-2015, 19:42
So, now tacked on formations in web bundles are considered part of the codex proper ?

Ok - it's good to see the Space Marine army as a whole getting the Eldar treatment ;p

Asher
14-06-2015, 20:23
Yeah, and people thought that FW units were bad.

I really dislike the concept of formations; especially if they are web exclusive and need to be bought alongside other products.

sturguard
14-06-2015, 20:26
I think (and here I think Spiney is wrong in his blanket assumptions about Eldar and SM players- I would venture that many people play both of some variety)- and again this is my two cents- that a unit by unit case, Eldar have more upgrades than Space Marines, or at least if you went to a venue where no formations, data slates, allies- whatever, I don't even know half of the upgrades you can take now. In general, if you play vanilla Eldar, against vanilla SM- Eldar would win most games. However, if you play the 2 demi companies and take your 8 free razorbacks, or you take the Skyhammer formation (plus the demi companies)- I give the advantage to SM. The fact that SMs would have so many free units on the board, in addition to having all object secured, in addition to being able to use a doctrine every turn trumps eldar shooting. I have played several games with my eldar and honestly against my opponents I don't have to play a competitive list- I havent used any bikes thus far, I have only used the Suncannon Wraithknight and no wraithguard. However, if I knew my opponent was bringing the double demi company, I would have zero issues bringing 5 model windrider squads with 3-4 scatter lasers in each. Why? Well, even with 3-4 of such units, I wouldnt be able to take down the razorbacks fast enough, I would assume my wraithknight would be dead the turn it moved (or started on the table) with all the free lascannons on the board (in addition to lascannons in the 5 man tac squads) and that isnt even counting the grav guns from the centurions or devastators. Honestly, I think it would be a pretty fair fight. On a whole, if I was a SM player, I would be pretty pumped with the codex, it has some nice formations, some broken ones, and good depth to the book- as a 20 year SW player (actually 23 years, I am getting old), I would trade our 2 codexes, which amounts to Codex:Thunderwolf- for the new SM book any day, and 3 times on tournament days.

Take it for what its worth.

Aluinn
14-06-2015, 20:35
I think the issues with this formation (which is probably OP -- I don't think any comparisons to Eldar are really necessary; it just likely is, all things considered) are symptomatic of the problem with adding formations to the design mix in general. It has in the past been tough enough to balance codexes against one another even when everyone used the same FoC and there were no allies or fortifications or LoW (though I will say fortifications have turned out to be balanced rather well, so far). Adding those things complicated matters, then adding formations adds another place where rules can be exploited for powergaming purposes.

The basic principle -- and I think this is universally true of any game -- is that the more rules/units/whatevers you're dealing with, the more likely it is that something problematical will slip through. The SM codex seems to really reflect this because most people appear to agree that the core list is quite fine, but then we have this formation that seems like kind of a no-brainer in terms of its raw power, and has the potential to totally ruin an opponent's army on turn 1-2, which is just no fun, it should also be said.

Kingrick
14-06-2015, 20:48
^Remains to be seen. If the squads don't have to be maxed out, based on what I'm hearing, the math goes like this:

Captain
Chaplain
2 min Command
6 min Tacs
2 min Assaults
2 min Devs
~11-1200 points

650 points for gear

12 free transports at 1850

Now I'm hoping that there's a catch, but five man squads are not expensive.


215289

in regards to a lot of the recent releases lol

AngryAngel
14-06-2015, 20:49
Ok - it's good to see the Space Marine army as a whole getting the Eldar treatment ;p

You mean its good to see Codex Eldar are still a touch above while marines got one OP formation, I agree. It's good to see your earlier claims of trend were still false.


I think (and here I think Spiney is wrong in his blanket assumptions about Eldar and SM players- I would venture that many people play both of some variety)- and again this is my two cents- that a unit by unit case, Eldar have more upgrades than Space Marines, or at least if you went to a venue where no formations, data slates, allies- whatever, I don't even know half of the upgrades you can take now. In general, if you play vanilla Eldar, against vanilla SM- Eldar would win most games. However, if you play the 2 demi companies and take your 8 free razorbacks, or you take the Skyhammer formation (plus the demi companies)- I give the advantage to SM. The fact that SMs would have so many free units on the board, in addition to having all object secured, in addition to being able to use a doctrine every turn trumps eldar shooting. I have played several games with my eldar and honestly against my opponents I don't have to play a competitive list- I havent used any bikes thus far, I have only used the Suncannon Wraithknight and no wraithguard. However, if I knew my opponent was bringing the double demi company, I would have zero issues bringing 5 model windrider squads with 3-4 scatter lasers in each. Why? Well, even with 3-4 of such units, I wouldnt be able to take down the razorbacks fast enough, I would assume my wraithknight would be dead the turn it moved (or started on the table) with all the free lascannons on the board (in addition to lascannons in the 5 man tac squads) and that isnt even counting the grav guns from the centurions or devastators. Honestly, I think it would be a pretty fair fight. On a whole, if I was a SM player, I would be pretty pumped with the codex, it has some nice formations, some broken ones, and good depth to the book- as a 20 year SW player (actually 23 years, I am getting old), I would trade our 2 codexes, which amounts to Codex:Thunderwolf- for the new SM book any day, and 3 times on tournament days.

Take it for what its worth.

I can agree with this, but still on the fence for the formation with the absurd amount of razor backs, I guess we'll see soon though. I look forward to being proven right or wrong.

Fle
14-06-2015, 20:52
You mean its good to see Codex Eldar are still a touch above while marines got one OP formation, I agree. It's good to see your earlier claims of trend were still false.

I don't recall making any such claims...I was just expressing a hope that the next set of codexes contain less sub par stuff and more interesting and viable stuff, like the recent Eldar codex. So far so good in my view, lets see what the DA look like in a few weeks. Here's hoping :)


Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Treadhead_1st
14-06-2015, 21:03
I think the Skyhammer formation is insane - with 4 Gravs and Combat Squads you can hit a huge number of tanks/monstrous creatures/elite infantry squads in one go, with the Assault Squads to (at the very least) lock down the survivors. It adds up to a fair amount of points but it can eliminate the worst threats to the rest of your army allowing them to advance unmolested. Hell, add it to a regular Drop Pod army and you are likely to cripple your opponent in the first turn - something that is no fun for either player and bad for the game as a whole. This is something I am very much going to argue is pay-to-win, purely from the perspective that it is rules limited to 200 boxes meaning it is effectively "only people who can pay right now can win". Were it in the Codex, in White Dwarf or available in E-format I would not say it was pay-to-win, but would question why it is not in the Codex that is launching on pretty much the same damn day. I would argue that it was broken as all hell, but no more pay-to-win than the rest of the game can be.

Flipmode
14-06-2015, 22:40
It is pretty darn strong if used, however kept out of the book...

I guess that would be too bad as I'm sure there will be plenty of copies floating around for those who seek the cheese.

I agree, however refusing to play against copies of the formation is a little silly. I mean everyone could always just refuse to play against anyone or anything they field for whatever reason anyways, saying you won't because it is a " copy " of a formation sheet doesn't give anyone a more secure moral high ground to object, imo of course.


I would say it gives you some higher ground, if you were to compare it with a regular codex. If someone claimed a certain rule, but instead of having the relevant Codex they had a bundle of copied papers, I would think it fair to say they don't have much of a case if questioned.

Being facetious anyway, sorry. The real reason it is not a problem for me personally is that I will only have to face it once. My cheesiest friends don't tend to repeat tricks, to keep things fresh.

Minsc
14-06-2015, 22:42
I'm also slightly confused; GW went out of their way to remove all ways of "charging from reserve" (deepstrike, outflank), and then even went so far to remove all the rare and special cases who allowed a unit to charge after coming in from reserve (i.e. Boss Zagstrukk and his Stormboyz), and even added a block on having infiltrators and scouts assault on the first turn.

And now suddenly, they bring it back again? :rolleyes:

Spiney Norman
14-06-2015, 22:48
I'm also slightly confused; GW went out of their way to remove all ways of "charging from reserve" (deepstrike, outflank), and then even went so far to remove all the rare and special cases who allowed a unit to charge after coming in from reserve (i.e. Boss Zagstrukk and his Stormboyz), and even added a block on having infiltrators and scouts assault on the first turn.

And now suddenly, they bring it back again? :rolleyes:

I think it demonstrates quite adequetly that GW are absolutely aware that the rules they write are not balanced, they clearly understand that in order to sell assault marines (which are still pretty sub-par if fielded outside of the sky hammer formation) they needed some way to make them OTT awesome.

I keep thinking how awesome it would be to get a similarly structured formation for battle sisters, six squads of battle sisters and two or retributors with free Immolators and two squads of seraphim, heck if I went with 4 Immolators and 4 rhinos I could actually field that force...

Minsc
14-06-2015, 22:59
I think it demonstrates quite adequetly that GW are absolutely aware that the rules they write are not balanced, they clearly understand that in order to sell assault marines (which are still pretty sub-par if fielded outside of the sky hammer formation) they needed some way to make them OTT awesome.

But if GW where absolutely aware of this, then surely they would've given Assault Marines something similar, i.e. a Assault Formation in the actual codex, and not just something that's restricted to being a limited edition webbased formation? Or better yet - given Assault Marines something that's built into their actual rules in the codex?
Surely this would make them sell more models.

Saunders
14-06-2015, 23:11
I am glad the marine codex didn't get the Eldar treatment (Str D all over the place, heavy-weapon spamming troops, point reductions and extra rules all over the place) so I won't have any problem getting a game against anybody :) That pay-to-win formation is rediculus, but since I'm not using formations out of principle so that won't be an issue. Already discovered a bunch of new things I want to try (Dreadnought squadron charging with Pedro kantor nearby ... oh my) but I do hope we get more than 2 years out of it this time.

About the only thing Space Marines didn't get is Str D. You're deluding yourself if you think they didn't get similar pt cost reductions and extra rules, or free transports enmass :p

Vaktathi
14-06-2015, 23:14
There was very clearly a deliberate shift in codex design paradigm with the tail end of 6E and the first 6 months of 7E, starting with Necrons. Something changed internally at GW. We have a change in management announced at the end of 2014, taking effect at the beginning of this year, and there may be something related to that in this change, there may not, it may be a different internal management shift or something else altogether.

What is clear is that whatever was originally intended for 7E, when that was likely being written in 2013 along with the later 6E and early 7E books, has been discarded.

sturguard
14-06-2015, 23:46
Yeah, too bad SWs, the first of the new codexes got the short end of the stick, both in an utter crap codex and the fact that you have Codex SWs and Codex SWs +1.

Losing Command
15-06-2015, 00:36
About the only thing Space Marines didn't get is Str D. You're deluding yourself if you think they didn't get similar pt cost reductions and extra rules, or free transports enmass :p

Oh really ? Lets see : Tactical squads, assault squads, bikes, chaplains, rhino's, razorbacks, drop pods, captains, storm raven, honor guard, legion of the damned, devastator squads and all versions of Landraider are still the same points and rules as the previous book, the only difference being one weapon option added in some cases (eviscerator, grav-cannon)
Librarians, dreadnoughs, scouts, thunderfire cannons ,crusader squads and scout bikers got rule adjustments but no point changes. Predators, vindicators, whirlwhinds, hunters and stalkers had no point changes, but can be taken in squadrons now and only have a new rule when there are still 3 of them.
Command squads, sternguard, terminators, assault terminators, attack bikes and devastator centurions got point adjustments but no rule changes. Assault centurions and landspeeder storm recieved point adjustments and a change to one of their weapons.
Techmarines, stormtalons, vanguard veterans and landspeeders if you have a unit of 3 recieved rule and point adjustments.

Now I don't know the exact details about Eldar, but there seemed to be far more units that had points lowered ánd rules added or changed. A number of the changes were also quite significant (monsterous - gargantuan, heavy weapons for whole unit, ability to attack flyers with haywire grenades) and had lots of people worried, while I haven't yet seen much complaints about how 4 attacks on dreadnoughts are OP for example.

Now I do have to agree that the free transports thing is something SM have over Eldar, and I am curious to see how that pans out (not going to use it myself, I don't have the spare money for that many transport vehicles) But I think we can all agree that free Waveserpents for every Eldar unit that could take them sounds just a little more scary than razorbacks ;)

sturguard
15-06-2015, 01:08
Losing Command,
You would be incorrect- I listed below the only price differences in the books. Again, I think alot of people over react without actually knowing the rules/ exact changes in codexes and take the Internet's word that things are problematic. Again, eldar did get stronger through the additions of free exarch powers, heavy weapons on every windrider bike, d-weapons for wraithguard and the Wraithknight (along with it being a gargantuan creature)- however, point drops were not one of the things that make eldar better. Free heavy weapons are okay, but to get them you have to take a bunch of guardians, and even with 3 guardian squads you only save the amount of points in one Razorback. Eldar and SM got different types of buffs, SMs can put roughly an additional 25%-30% more models on the board for free, Eldar have more firepower or more accurate firepower. Is one better than the other- in a competitive environment who knows, but I think the main thing is if you want, you can play a casual game with either codex as well as a competitive one, so both types of gamers should be satisfied. Now that doesnt mean that the players with non Necron, Eldar or SM armies are happy, because it is clear these 3 are far above the rest.

Rangers, Windrider, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, Hemlock, Falcon, Vaul's Wrath Batteries, Warwalkers, Wraithlord, Avatar, Autarch, Farseer- All Stayed the Same

Wave Serpent reduced 5 pts, Crimson Hunter 10 pts, Vypers 10 pts, Dark Reapers 15, Nightspinner 5 pts,

Wraithknight went up for some configurations

Asher
15-06-2015, 01:17
I don't know if it is a minority or a majority, but some people do not like using formations. My gaming group consists of such people, and I'm happy about that.

That being said, if you don't count in formations, the SM codex falls behind the Eldar and Necrons. The last SM codex was mid tier and while things got cheaper, they did imho nothing to heave it up to the pedestal. Skyhammer and 2x Demi-Company are the biggest offenders here; without them it is just a solid codex.

AngryAngel
15-06-2015, 01:28
I would probably agree, without formations the book isn't much changed from the last one, but with it may feel like it has a chance vs the necron eldar power builds. I'll need to see how it pans out though. It may be a case of those free transports looking good on paper but the units that are needed to take it keeping it from really causing any fear unless it is a lower mid to lower tier book already.

I'm curious to what DA will bring that will leave the two books roughly compared to one another with the table now being set, more free units ? I guess we'll see.

R.D.
15-06-2015, 01:58
I'm also slightly confused; GW went out of their way to remove all ways of "charging from reserve" (deepstrike, outflank), and then even went so far to remove all the rare and special cases who allowed a unit to charge after coming in from reserve (i.e. Boss Zagstrukk and his Stormboyz), and even added a block on having infiltrators and scouts assault on the first turn.

And now suddenly, they bring it back again? :rolleyes:

Well as a Nid player I'm a bit more hopeful now.

insectum7
15-06-2015, 01:59
I don't know if it is a minority or a majority, but some people do not like using formations. My gaming group consists of such people, and I'm happy about that.

That being said, if you don't count in formations, the SM codex falls behind the Eldar and Necrons. The last SM codex was mid tier and while things got cheaper, they did imho nothing to heave it up to the pedestal. Skyhammer and 2x Demi-Company are the biggest offenders here; without them it is just a solid codex.

I disagree about two points:

1: I think you may be underestimating the seemingly small addition of the Grav-cannon to the armament options. IMO they will be similar to the Assault Cannon in 4th.

2: The benefits of the Demi-Company and Gladius Strike Force are being overlooked. For a UM player like myself the bonuses are Tactical Doctrine x3, Assault x2, Devastator x2. I find it a little strange that the Aspect Warrior +1 BS or WS is considered "broken" by some, and the Battle Doctrines seem to get a "meh". Re-rolling at BS 4/WS 4 is statistically better than WS 5/BS 5.


As a side note, Devastators tooled up with Grav-Cannons in a Drop Pod will kill a WK in one round of firing without the Skyhammer formation. 12 shots re-roll to hit (Devastator Doctrine), re-roll to wound (Amps).

sturguard
15-06-2015, 02:16
Insectum-
You are correct and even if you sacrifice the pod and the devs, they come out cheaper than the Wraithknight and I agree, I have been saying all along I think the doctrines are a great advantage. The +1 BS/WS for eldar is deceiving- at first glance you think, OMG BS 5 is huge, but when you look at the typical squad sizes for aspect shooty warriors, they are generally 5-6 models. Essentially that means that you get 1 more hit than you would have for BS4. It does not help when you crap out and roll a bunch of 1's (which let's face it, happens more than we think). I would much rather reroll (which mitigates a handful of bad dice rolls) than simply have +1 better to hit, especially in a game where 1's always miss. As far as the +1 ws, again, in most situations, you go from hitting on 4's to hiting on 3's- but most of these attacks are from striking scorpions where the majority of models have str 4 so you need 2 sets of dice rolls to generate a good result. So even if I get an extra 3-4 hits because of the WS5 (Which by the way is only most effective against WS4), I still need 4's in general to wound, so that may pan out to 1-2 more wounds and 0 wounds after armor saves (I mean we are talking about MEQ armies here as hordes it really doesnt matter). Once again, I would rather have the reroll right where I want it every turn.

Now, if you read my previous posts, I don't particularly like Eldar more than SM so I will say reinforce the point that if you really keep an open mind the SMs book is just fine in comparison to the Eldar book. I also said that the Wraithknight was no where near as good as the Imperial Knight when playing against old school 40k- ie, lots of 1 wound models and cheap tanks. I will say it again, if you play the double demi company and have the razorbacks and gravs a dual wraithcannon toting Wraithknight is a complete waste of points. It will never get it points back on free tanks and 5 man tac squads. If you get lucky, you take out 2 razorbacks on turn 1, then you're dead. I imagine that if the dual demi company formation becomes a standard build (which I doubt because it will require so many tanks and I am not sure people are willing to buy that many- I consider myself a pretty avid collector and I only have 1 rhino, 2 razorbacks and 5 drop pods) you won't see a wraithknight in standard eldar lists, most likely people will gravitate towards the bikes.

insectum7
15-06-2015, 04:07
Insectum-
You are correct and even if you sacrifice the pod and the devs, they come out cheaper than the Wraithknight and I agree, I have been saying all along I think the doctrines are a great advantage. The +1 BS/WS for eldar is deceiving- at first glance you think, OMG BS 5 is huge, but when you look at the typical squad sizes for aspect shooty warriors, they are generally 5-6 models. Essentially that means that you get 1 more hit than you would have for BS4. It does not help when you crap out and roll a bunch of 1's (which let's face it, happens more than we think). I would much rather reroll (which mitigates a handful of bad dice rolls) than simply have +1 better to hit, especially in a game where 1's always miss. As far as the +1 ws, again, in most situations, you go from hitting on 4's to hiting on 3's- but most of these attacks are from striking scorpions where the majority of models have str 4 so you need 2 sets of dice rolls to generate a good result. So even if I get an extra 3-4 hits because of the WS5 (Which by the way is only most effective against WS4), I still need 4's in general to wound, so that may pan out to 1-2 more wounds and 0 wounds after armor saves (I mean we are talking about MEQ armies here as hordes it really doesnt matter). Once again, I would rather have the reroll right where I want it every turn.

Now, if you read my previous posts, I don't particularly like Eldar more than SM so I will say reinforce the point that if you really keep an open mind the SMs book is just fine in comparison to the Eldar book. I also said that the Wraithknight was no where near as good as the Imperial Knight when playing against old school 40k- ie, lots of 1 wound models and cheap tanks. I will say it again, if you play the double demi company and have the razorbacks and gravs a dual wraithcannon toting Wraithknight is a complete waste of points. It will never get it points back on free tanks and 5 man tac squads. If you get lucky, you take out 2 razorbacks on turn 1, then you're dead. I imagine that if the dual demi company formation becomes a standard build (which I doubt because it will require so many tanks and I am not sure people are willing to buy that many- I consider myself a pretty avid collector and I only have 1 rhino, 2 razorbacks and 5 drop pods) you won't see a wraithknight in standard eldar lists, most likely people will gravitate towards the bikes.

If I read you corrently, I think you and I are more or less on the same page. Which is to say that Eldar units got buffs which are fairly obvious, and that Space Marines got buff which are less obvious, but of similar potency.

I think the D-Weapons of the Eldar codex are very high profile upgrades, which have negatively colored the rest of the codex. But the Space Marine book offers quick counters to those units via. Grav propagation, which I think is ultimately more versatile than those D-Units. It will still take me a while to get the feel of the new book, but these are my current impressions.

I'm looking forward to trying out five man Tac teams with the Grav-Cannon. Because it's a Salvo weapon, it operates much more like a traditional Special weapon if you want it to. As opposed to being forced into Snap Firing, the Grav is a little more like a Plasma Gun when your squad is moving around. Standing still, the Grav is still more potent than a Heavy Bolter against units with a 4+ save. Units with a 5+ save are vulnerable to Bolters anyways, although the re-rolls to wound via the Amp still make the Grav-Cannon decent. It's obviously very dangerous to high armor units and still reasonable against Vehicles.

Saunders
15-06-2015, 05:04
I'm happy with where Space Marines are at the end of the day, but I just wanted to make clear that I'm unhappy with players trying to convince themselves and others that the codex doesn't get them where they need to be as a competitive army. After the last 200 pages of "Eldar are OP and broke the game," I'm not going to sit here quietly as the same posters downplay any advantages that the next codex picked up. I'd rather discuss the utility of the new codex instead of "it's still not as good as the Eldar codex."

I would say that I can't wait to see what the next codex will bring, but seeing as how it's probably Dark Angels I imagine it'll largely be what we see now with different formations. Bring on the Tau?

Losing Command
15-06-2015, 06:37
Well with that new formation players who had concerns about the competaitiveness of their marines no longer have to worry, if they thought MSU with free transport wasn't good enough :shifty: Specially the webstore-exclusive one is the Necron Decurion all over again, probably even worse. Even more reasons to add formations to the list of things you need to discuss before a pick-up game.

One thing I found out while trying to write an armylist using the new SM codex is that I really do not like how formations basically write your armylist for you. No choice in which units you like, they are already grouped together and all you can do is choose one or two groups and what upgrades they take. Maybe I'm just to old school for formations :( So the pages with formations (and the horrible cheap cartoon coloursceme examples) are wasted paper to me, but the rest of the codex is just fine. It also made me appreciate the CAD a whole lot more, besides making me worried that in 8th edition the FOC style of army building is removed in favor of formations in order to improve sales. Which sounds crazy, but GW seems capable of anything :rolleyes: Which makes me especially curious about which book is next in like after DA.

Konovalev
15-06-2015, 06:58
I'm enjoying the new codex, even though it isn't that much different from the previous one....

I want to like the Gladius formation, but I'm having a hard time taking it with anything else I want to use and staying under 2k. The tactical tax and unit restrictions feel very limiting. 3+ scout squads? 3+ Terminator/Veteran squads?

insectum7
15-06-2015, 06:59
One thing I found out while trying to write an armylist using the new SM codex is that I really do not like how formations basically write your armylist for you. No choice in which units you like, they are already grouped together and all you can do is choose one or two groups and what upgrades they take. Maybe I'm just to old school for formations :( So the pages with formations (and the horrible cheap cartoon coloursceme examples) are wasted paper to me, but the rest of the codex is just fine. It also made me appreciate the CAD a whole lot more, besides making me worried that in 8th edition the FOC style of army building is removed in favor of formations in order to improve sales. Which sounds crazy, but GW seems capable of anything :rolleyes: Which makes me especially curious about which book is next in like after DA.

The Demi-Company was pretty close to my standard army core anyways, so it's a freebie for me. To get the Gladius Bonus things get a little more restrictive. I'm finding though that the 1st Company Task Force is the most convenient and in-line with my old standard list. My old Command Squad with Meltas and Sternguard Squad with Meltas just gets turned into three five man Sternguard Squads with Combi-melta, Melta combinations.

But yes, if I wanted something like three Devastator squads I have to break out to the CAD. That's more open to us now though, since many Vehicles and Dreadnoughts can be taken in squadrons.

GrandmasterWang
15-06-2015, 07:04
Are there any individual units in the new SM Codex that stand out as OP?

Maybe thunder fire?

I am very glad the Skyhammer formation is a web exclusive pay to win bundle and NOT in the Codex proper.

Regarding the demi company which I have issues with (too much free stuff is terrible for balance)...

In a no allies SM vs SM battle at 2k points. ... is there any reason not to take the company for the free transports vs a CAD army (models permitting). I can't see how a standard FOC army wouldn't have a significant disadvantage vs the freebie formation one?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

insectum7
15-06-2015, 07:17
You could concievably use Tigurius with a Librarian Conclave and march around with Relentless, FnP 4+ Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons.

Combining 1st Company Task Force (which drops Ld. of nearby units by 2) and Librarian Conclave with Telepathy - Psychic Shriek can get nasty. I think the Conclave in general will be very flexible and useful.

MajorWesJanson
15-06-2015, 08:10
2: The benefits of the Demi-Company and Gladius Strike Force are being overlooked. For a UM player like myself the bonuses are Tactical Doctrine x3, Assault x2, Devastator x2. I find it a little strange that the Aspect Warrior +1 BS or WS is considered "broken" by some, and the Battle Doctrines seem to get a "meh". Re-rolling at BS 4/WS 4 is statistically better than WS 5/BS 5.

1. Not everyone plays UM, so a full company gets us 2/1/1.
2. Getting that +1 BS or WS bonus is from a simple formation of 3 aspect warrior squads, who are already strong units and often taken as is. To get the 2/1/1 doctrines, you need 2 demi companies + an aux formation, and those demi companies are made up of tactical squads as a core, who are midline in value compared to say Fire Dragons or Striking Scorpions.

Devs in a pod killing a WK is somewhat appropriate given the costs involved. 5 Devs in a pod with Grav is 245, the WK is 295. Devs only get the Dev doctrine if they are UM or if they are part of a Full Company. Eldar can do the same in return- 5 Fire Dragons and an exarch in a WS will nuke a Baneblade just as well, for a similar cost as those grav devs. And the Baneblade costs a lot more.

I think Marines are not up to Eldar Power Level, but are similar to Necrons now- most the power in the Marine/Necron books is in the formations they can take, while Eldar have most their power baked into the rules of the units themselves.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 08:25
I disagree about two points:

1: I think you may be underestimating the seemingly small addition of the Grav-cannon to the armament options. IMO they will be similar to the Assault Cannon in 4th.

2: The benefits of the Demi-Company and Gladius Strike Force are being overlooked. For a UM player like myself the bonuses are Tactical Doctrine x3, Assault x2, Devastator x2. I find it a little strange that the Aspect Warrior +1 BS or WS is considered "broken" by some, and the Battle Doctrines seem to get a "meh". Re-rolling at BS 4/WS 4 is statistically better than WS 5/BS 5.

1. The grav cannon is +35pts for the guy that carries it, I'm starting to wonder how many points you think it's reasonable to charge for a heavy weapon on a 1W guy in power armour, 50, 60? A full squad of grav devs is going to be an expensive proposition, and by no means easy to deploy when moving (including disembarking from their pod) halves their range and slashed their number of shots. I think grav devs are costed about right considering their fragility and high investment cost. Centurions are still a better option imo because they fix both those problems (esp now you can buy them a FA pod).

Personally I'd say that grav on dev squads at the right cost (which I feel they've achieved here) is a very good thing for the game because it gives a widespread natural predator for the WK which it previously was lacking, at least Eldar players will now have to think about taking a WK now rather than "yep, that will win me the game by itself".

2. The two don't even compare IMHO, the tactical doctrines only affect certain units at full effect and only for 1 turn, ok ultras can double up, but that is losing them some of the other (extremely powerful) chapter tactic buffs, like IWND vehicles and H&R on everything.

Part of the problem with the aspect host is the squads you can apply it to, rerolling to hit for two turns with boltguns using the tact doctrine hardly compares to +1 BS on a squad of dark reapers for the entire game, likewise +1 WS on a squad entirely equipped with power weapons looks pretty weak next to an assault squad getting rerolls to hit with their rubber ccws. Aspect warrior squad are equipped to take maximum advantage out of their stats, marines are not. The only real doctrine of note (sadly) is going to be grav devs rerolling with the Dev doctrine imo.


As a side note, Devastators tooled up with Grav-Cannons in a Drop Pod will kill a WK in one round of firing without the Skyhammer formation. 12 shots re-roll to hit (Devastator Doctrine), re-roll to wound (Amps).

That might be true, though if the knight is packing a shield I think 4 wounds is the average result once you consider a 5+ inv and FNP. It should also be born in mind that at almost 50pts per grav Devastator plus the sergeant and pod that unit scrapes in barely under the cost of the knight, and 5 T4 3+ bodies being drop-podded into the middle of the enemy army are basically a one-use weapon. They make an impact vs the right target sure, but I'd say they costed grav cannons about right for what they bring.

Sky hammer formation notwithstanding of course, that relentless DS is pretty uncalled for.

Flipmode
15-06-2015, 08:34
Skyhammer is a total FromageTion.

Seems to be a level of forum confusion regarding exactly what you get for demi-company's, GSF and battle company. Some of these don't quite add up.

MajorWesJanson
15-06-2015, 08:43
1+ Demi-company gives you a Tactical doctrine
Gladius strike force gives you 1 of each doctrine (+1 tac for the mandatory Demi-company)
A Gladius Strike force with 2 Demi-companies gives you the free transports for the demi-company units.

Stop trying to make FromageTion happen. It's not going to happen. /Meangirls

murgel2006
15-06-2015, 09:04
I doubt it, for a thread to go that long you have to have thoroughly entrenched positions on both sides of the debate, the Eldar thread lasted so long because there genuinely were people out there that wanted to argue that the Eldar book was perfectly balanced. It seems like marine players are far less defensive of their codex and are willing to call 'broken' when they see it.

Is that so? IMO this threat went so long as there were people insisting in calling the codex op despite amassing evidence it wasn't. ;)
And As a marines player, I take objection. A marines codex simply can never be op. History proves that....



Given that the formations is only available if you buy the bundle, and is limited to something like 200 copies in total I don't think you need to worry about it particularly, just make it clear that you won't play against knock-off copies printed from the Internet. In a sense they did a favour not printing that formation in the codex because it makes it easier to refuse to play against it. In my view that makes it rather less aggregious than the wraith knight, which is totally codex legal and thus much harder to find a logical reason for avoiding.

How do you prove you have an original? Besides, how long will it take until the rules are available through other means like some Datasheet download.
Frankly, this limited is just a blinder. I know the world will be sad to see that about 50 of the 200 will be found in the store where I go. :shifty:
AND IMO there is nothing to to bad about that formation if used in good faith.


I would probably agree, without formations the book isn't much changed from the last one, but with it may feel like it has a chance vs the necron eldar power builds. I'll need to see how it pans out though. It may be a case of those free transports looking good on paper but the units that are needed to take it keeping it from really causing any fear unless it is a lower mid to lower tier book already.
I'm curious to what DA will bring that will leave the two books roughly compared to one another with the table now being set, more free units ? I guess we'll see.

I also hope for the DA codex to be as fluffy as that one.


Have things changes at some point and the formations are now restricted to the codices they come from?
I always thought you can use them within a faction easily (counts as ...). So the skyhammer for BA, the demi for DA etc. but you lose the special rules for being BA/DA etc.

Flipmode
15-06-2015, 09:09
1+ Demi-company gives you a Tactical doctrine
Gladius strike force gives you 1 of each doctrine (+1 tac for the mandatory Demi-company)
A Gladius Strike force with 2 Demi-companies gives you the free transports for the demi-company units.

Stop trying to make FromageTion happen. It's not going to happen. /Meangirls

It just happened. FromageBOOM.

I'm beginning to feel the free transports aren't so bad. To take full advantage you are committing a lot of points and cash.

insectum7
15-06-2015, 09:45
1. Not everyone plays UM

*Shrug* If we're talking power combos, then it's useful to mention them in the context of Doctrines.



To get the 2/1/1 doctrines, you need 2 demi companies + an aux formation,. . .

You only need a single Demi-company with an Auxiliary to form a Gladius and confer the bonus to members.


1. The grav cannon is +35pts for the guy that carries it, I'm starting to wonder how many points you think it's reasonable to charge for a heavy weapon on a 1W guy in power armour, 50, 60? A full squad of grav devs is going to be an expensive proposition, and by no means easy to deploy when moving (including disembarking from their pod) halves their range and slashed their number of shots. I think grav devs are costed about right considering their fragility and high investment cost. Centurions are still a better option imo because they fix both those problems (esp now you can buy them a FA pod).

I used to pay 35 points for Lascannons, two editions ago. The Grav-Cannon brings more versatility than the other choices, it seems to be worth the points for certain builds.

Speaking of deployment, I'm used to landing a 365 point Sternguard Squad near the opponent. I'm no stranger to expensive units landing in the hot zone.

The difference is that the Devastators in a full squad often take more shots to knock out against certain weapons. A D-Weapon on a WK can kill a 70+ point model if they're Centurions, but kill a single 14 point model in the Devs. To each his own, but I prefer the Devs. I've already been using them very regularly, and they're among the last units to go down in my experience.




2. The two don't even compare IMHO, the tactical doctrines only affect certain units at full effect and only for 1 turn, ok ultras can double up, but that is losing them some of the other (extremely powerful) chapter tactic buffs, like IWND vehicles and H&R on everything.

Part of the problem with the aspect host is the squads you can apply it to, rerolling to hit for two turns with boltguns using the tact doctrine hardly compares to +1 BS on a squad of dark reapers for the entire game, likewise +1 WS on a squad entirely equipped with power weapons looks pretty weak next to an assault squad getting rerolls to hit with their rubber ccws. Aspect warrior squad are equipped to take maximum advantage out of their stats, marines are not. The only real doctrine of note (sadly) is going to be grav devs rerolling with the Dev doctrine imo.


The Doctrines have additional subtleties in them, like the fact that Tactical Squads not only re-roll to hit when shooting, but also in CC. That seems not so profound at first, but they also confer that bonus to any character that has joined them. A tooled up Chapter Master on a Bike is now re-rolling to hit, for example. Sicarius can re-roll to hit with his coup de gras move (S6 Instant Death). Sergents with CC weapons get meaner, as a 4+ re-rollable is better than a 3+. In fact all the Doctrines confer the bonus to characters that have joined the relevant squads. Expect to see Marine characters hopping from squad to squad and lending a hand. IMO that's one of the nicest parts about the bonuses.

Also, 3x Tactical + 2x Devastator is pretty much the whole game. That's three rounds of shooting at BS 5.5ish, and two rounds of shooting at BS 4.5ish for Tacs. For Devs, BS 5.5 for two, 4.5 for three.

Since the Gladius Doctrines apply to everyone in the Formation you're looking at many of your Auxilliaries essentially getting Preferred Enemy. The Imperial Fist Bolter Drill is neat, but all UM units in a Gladius get it for all weapons for 4+ turns. It's very good. To me the Doctrines seem not only comparable to the Aspect Warrior boost, but more flexible.

MajorWesJanson
15-06-2015, 10:37
You only need a single Demi-company with an Auxiliary to form a Gladius and confer the bonus to members.

Yeah, I was thinking the free transports.


The difference is that the Devastators in a full squad often take more shots to knock out against certain weapons. A D-Weapon on a WK can kill a 70+ point model if they're Centurions, but kill a single 14 point model in the Devs. To each his own, but I prefer the Devs. I've already been using them very regularly, and they're among the last units to go down in my experience.

A Dev squad is among the bottom of targets for a D-cannon Wraithknight. On the other hand, Shuricannon Jetbikes, or Dark Reapers both get a lot of value from shooting at a Dev squad that costs more than they do. Rock Paper Grav-gun, really.


To me the Doctrines seem not only comparable to the Aspect Warrior boost, but more flexible.

More flexible if you play UM, maybe, but otherwise 3 aspect warrior squads is a smaller buy in than a Demi-company + Aux. The Aspect Warrior formation bonus is not really comparable to doctrines though, since it is equivalent to one of the Aux formations on it's own. Combat doctrines are more on the level of Battle Focus. A Gladius strike force gives them to you, while the Eldar war host gives them guaranteed 6" run for battle focus.

insectum7
15-06-2015, 10:44
A Dev squad is among the bottom of targets for a D-cannon Wraithknight. On the other hand, Shuricannon Jetbikes, or Dark Reapers both get a lot of value from shooting at a Dev squad that costs more than they do. Rock Paper Grav-gun, really.

Certainly true, the Devs just gel better with my army and tactical habits. I'm not fond of units that loose fighting ability with the loss of a single model.

Flipmode
15-06-2015, 11:02
Yeah, I was thinking the free transports.



A Dev squad is among the bottom of targets for a D-cannon Wraithknight. On the other hand, Shuricannon Jetbikes, or Dark Reapers both get a lot of value from shooting at a Dev squad that costs more than they do. Rock Paper Grav-gun, really.



More flexible if you play UM, maybe, but otherwise 3 aspect warrior squads is a smaller buy in than a Demi-company + Aux. The Aspect Warrior formation bonus is not really comparable to doctrines though, since it is equivalent to one of the Aux formations on it's own. Combat doctrines are more on the level of Battle Focus. A Gladius strike force gives them to you, while the Eldar war host gives them guaranteed 6" run for battle focus.

You have clarified.. But to be specific. Battle Focus is like Chapter Tactics. Unmatched Agility is like Combat Doctrines.

Combat Doctrines are better than UA, because most units with Battle Focus have Fleet anyway.

But Battle Focus is better than Chapter Tactics.

Swings and roundabouts, innit?

Althenian Armourlost
15-06-2015, 11:50
I've been challenged by a marine player for this weekend - I have a feeling I'm about to see one of these assault marine and grav-devastator formations.

30 guardians and 20 banshees behind an aegis line in the deployment zone it is then, and the entire rest of the army being aircraft :D
I think I'll take Yriel for a change, too. If the assault marines charge his unit, he can fire his eye and kill all the guardians and assault marines at the same time. He's a right bastard, is Yriel.

Fle
15-06-2015, 12:48
I am very glad the Skyhammer formation is a web exclusive pay to win bundle and NOT in the Codex proper.

Why does it matter if it's in the codex proper or not? Its a formation that exists in the game, people will have access to it regardless of whether they bought the specific models this week as part of the bundle or already own them from collecting Space Marines for years.

Sure you can house rule it - "No Skyhammer formations" for example, but I'm not sure how that's any different than house ruling "no GC" for example.

You'll not make many friends if you insist on bringing the Skyhammer to every game in much the same way that you'll not make many friends if you insist on bringing D-Sythes in Wave Serpents and WKs to every game.

A.T.
15-06-2015, 12:57
Why does it matter if it's in the codex proper or not?Less proliferation, and less expectation.

Fle
15-06-2015, 12:59
Less proliferation, and less expectation.
How long before it's in army builder or battlescribe? Or on that website which hosts all the formations/detachments.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

A.T.
15-06-2015, 13:03
How long before it's in army builder or battlescribe? Or on that website which hosts all the formations/detachments.Not long I expect, but supplementary material always comes with a lower expectation of play than core material.

Althenian Armourlost
15-06-2015, 13:28
How long before it's in army builder or battlescribe? Or on that website which hosts all the formations/detachments.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

There was one used at my gaming group yesterday, based only of the forum rumours. It tabled a grey knight player. The guy who used it has now challenged me next week. I imagine I will be seeing this formation in most marine armies from now on, it's just that good. At 1,750 points, he used the sky hammer formation and the 3 land raider formation.

If you told me about the armies I would be facing in 7th edition when I was playing 40k 3 years ago, I would have thought you were nuts.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 13:33
If you told me about the armies I would be facing in 7th edition when I was playing 40k 3 years ago, I would have thought you were nuts.

Indeed, its pretty clear that after Necrons, Eldar and now Skyhammer, the game continues to circle the plug hole.

duffybear1988
15-06-2015, 13:49
Just wait for the Tau skyfire defence grid formation (made up) where everything gets interceptor and/or skyfire each turn... that's how these things normally work.

The GW giveth and the GW taketh away again. :D

Fle
15-06-2015, 13:52
Not long I expect, but supplementary material always comes with a lower expectation of play than core material.

I doubt that will hold true for much longer.

Althenian Armourlost
15-06-2015, 14:33
Just wait for the Tau skyfire defence grid formation (made up) where everything gets interceptor and/or skyfire each turn... that's how these things normally work.
The GW giveth and the GW taketh away again. :D

Didn't the tau already get one of those, with preferred enemy:marines?


Indeed, its pretty clear that after Necrons, Eldar and now Skyhammer, the game continues to circle the plug hole.

You have any other game you were thinking of playing? Some of the guys at my shop are playing flames of war, but historical wargaming just feels a bit lacklustre for me. "Oooh, you have a 75mm cannon. thats nice." I'd rather have an alien psychoplastic emo-zombie with an invisible flamethrower that removes souls any day. This is why no matter how OP the skyhammer formation is, I'll still play against it because Space Marines are awesome, and at least there are 40 power armoured bodies on the table. I haven't seen that in ages.

sturguard
15-06-2015, 15:19
Indeed, its pretty clear that after Necrons, Eldar and now Skyhammer, the game continues to circle the plug hole.

Surely you mean, Necrons, Eldar and now Space Marines as there are other over the top formation for the book such as the dual demi company, the conclave and others (including good units getting a buff that didnt need them such as the Thunderfire Cannons) that it should be included. I think every Warseer member gets the fact that you don't like the Eldar book Spiney. We have heard it from months from you. However it diminishes your reputation when you turn a blind eye to what many consider good or overly good in the new SM codex and just continue bashing Eldar at every chance you get. Personally from reading some of your other posts on other subjects, I think you are better than that. If there are particular members you disagree with, let it go, but we (as in the eldar community) are not all blind to having a good codex and most of us aren't trying to justify anything.

itcamefromthedeep
15-06-2015, 15:29
A while back I bought enough Rhino chassis to bring out my whole Battle Company, for the flavor. Looks like everything's coming up Milhouse.

---

I think grav cannons on Devastators aren't expensive enough (and neither are grav cannons on Centurions). Grav works out to be the equivalent of too many lascannons. It's a bad mechanic. The only thing you could do correct this nonsense is make light infantry armies good (and grav amps mean even models with a 5+ save are hardly resistant to grav weaponry). Does anyone see Hormagants, Termagants, and Boyz coming into vogue any time soon?

I suppose Green Tide with Painboyz is a problem for that Skyhammer force...

Theocracity
15-06-2015, 15:53
A while back I bought enough Rhino chassis to bring out my whole Battle Company, for the flavor. Looks like everything's coming up Milhouse.

---

I think grav cannons on Devastators aren't expensive enough (and neither are grav cannons on Centurions). Grav works out to be the equivalent of too many lascannons. It's a bad mechanic. The only thing you could do correct this nonsense is make light infantry armies good (and grav amps mean even models with a 5+ save are hardly resistant to grav weaponry). Does anyone see Hormagants, Termagants, and Boyz coming into vogue any time soon?

I suppose Green Tide with Painboyz is a problem for that Skyhammer force...

Just make sure you put a Big Bosspole in there for Fearless. 100 Boyz getting Pinned would be no fun at all....

hazmiter
15-06-2015, 15:57
There was one used at my gaming group yesterday, based only of the forum rumours. It tabled a grey knight player. The guy who used it has now challenged me next week. I imagine I will be seeing this formation in most marine armies from now on, it's just that good. At 1,750 points, he used the sky hammer formation and the 3 land raider formation.

If you told me about the armies I would be facing in 7th edition when I was playing 40k 3 years ago, I would have thought you were nuts.

Just take some interceptor fire stuff.
That and the player shouldn't be allowed to use that formation full stop end of story UNTIL those rules are available for perusal by the player base.

Losing Command
15-06-2015, 16:03
With their easy acces to Interceptor it migh be Tau who already have an answer to a Skyhammer formation. Some riptides and broadsides should be able to make short work of those marines dropping in before they harm anything. There may be enough units in the formation to have something left, but in my experience deep-striking against Tau is generally a bad idea.

Grav-cannons would probably still be taken in they were 40 points, their damage potential is rather high, as centurion deathstars have already proven.

hazmiter
15-06-2015, 16:06
With their easy acces to Interceptor it migh be Tau who already have an answer to a Skyhammer formation. Some riptides and broadsides should be able to make short work of those marines dropping in before they harm anything. There may be enough units in the formation to have something left, but in my experience deep-striking against Tau is generally a bad idea.

Grav-cannons would probably still be taken in they were 40 points, their damage potential is rather high, as centurion deathstars have already proven.

So there shall soon be fist bumping with TAU to stave off the death from above :wtf: and the eldarcrons will soon be Taudarcrons.... Oh dear.....

Arthanor
15-06-2015, 17:06
eldarcrons? Is that actually a thing or are you just making stuff up to be able to complain about xenos?

Taudar though.. that was a thing and if Tau still bring the easy interceptor, it might become a thing again (Along with Tau anything) just because of that formation.

Get those Battle-wraithsuits ready! We need to intercept the marines reinforcements! :P

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 17:43
eldarcrons? Is that actually a thing or are you just making stuff up to be able to complain about xenos?

Taudar though.. that was a thing and if Tau still bring the easy interceptor, it might become a thing again (Along with Tau anything) just because of that formation.

Get those Battle-wraithsuits ready! We need to intercept the marines reinforcements! :P

I assume 'Eldarcrons' is just a reference to the 'premier league' created by those two codexes which other books can't hope to compete with, to my know,edge there has never been a way to ally those two armies together without going unbound or playing apocalypse, and even if they could, it's not like either would gain that much from being able to do that, they ae both strong for very fdifferent reasons

insectum7
15-06-2015, 17:51
I assume 'Eldarcrons' is just a reference to the 'premier league' created by those two codexes which other books can't hope to compete with, to my know,edge there has never been a way to ally those two armies together without going unbound or playing apocalypse, and even if they could, it's not like either would gain that much from being able to do that, they ae both strong for very fdifferent reasons

I vote for the proper term to be "NecDar".

hazmiter
15-06-2015, 19:05
I vote for the proper term to be "NecDar".

The term i saw a while back was Crondar :p eldarcrons was my extremely bad typing.
Each of those forces do bring something unique to the table, and yes i admittedly forgot about the allies matrix there.
The Tau however i havent read the dex (is it insanely easy to gain skyfire with them, ive heard that you dont want to be saying "Geronimo" anywhere within range).... :p
As for balance, its all in the hands of the players really......
Many have stated OP, and since no one can assault after DS, not for a few editions now at any rate, you could say its an unfair advantage. One thought crossed my mind however....... What if eldar had a web way varient of this..... 2 wave serpents, both with full load of fire dragons and 2 units of banshees..... Insta deploy via gate.... With assault on arrival....
(This is not wish listing by the way, as i dont play the eldar, and might not even be the optimal idea for it, but what if).

Lord Damocles
15-06-2015, 20:12
There is already a Blood Angel formation which allows assault from deep strike, isn't there?

itcamefromthedeep
15-06-2015, 20:56
There is, damocles, but you need to land in between three pre-deployed Tactical Squads. Delivering it in practice seems remarkably difficult.

itcamefromthedeep
15-06-2015, 21:07
Necrons and Eldar can ally, but like all Come the Apocalypse allies they can't be deployed within 12" of their distrusted ally and during the game they still have that "one eye open" roll-not-to-derp rule. It can still be Battleforged.

I've considered running the Solitaire/Shadowseer/Jester formation alongside Tyranids to represent the harlies tricking some Tyranids into attacking another enemy, and then using the Tyranid attack as a distraction for some hidden purpose. Mostly as an excuse to use my new Harlequin minis.

Come the Apocalypse allies are usually awful.

---

Since the Skyhammer doesn't deploy at the start and doesn't need to be near the rest of your army I suppose that you could throw it into some other army with Come the Apocalypse allies, like ta more static Decurion force to soak up the damage and be an anvil to your Skyhammer.

7e sure does allow some fluff abominations for players who don't care for the background.

Sephillion
15-06-2015, 21:14
Edit: Wrong thread.

insectum7
15-06-2015, 21:21
7e sure does allow some fluff abominations for players who don't care for the background.

That sure is a truth and a half.

I will admit to summoning Bloodletters once or twice for the kicks though, and it sure was fun. I love those models, but can't really justify a Khorne army yet, so every now and again the ten painted ones make an appearance. Guilty of heresy though, I know.

AngryAngel
15-06-2015, 22:45
Completely off topic, but those 7e fluff abortions that can be summoned forth, really do the very best to destroy the game for me. Yes, you can use fluff to justify just about anything but it is the back story and the decades of good fluff that give this game the real edge anymore. Once they start to allow that to be made into a twisted, unloved chudling, it does more damage to the game then even the most non sensical over the top formations. Of course that is riddled with opinion, but through all the rules snafus and codex over nerfings, the fluff abominations really make me roll my eyes. Just damages my calm, if you get my meaning.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 22:59
The problem with 40k now is that you can't even get a balanced game when playing 'fluffy', some of the most offensively broken combinations can be the fluffiest ways to run that army, how about the sky hammer formation or a fluffy Iyanden list based on the wraith host or a necron decurion, playing against any of those three is about as fun as doing shots of bleach (well ok, skyhammer is still a theoretical, but I have actual experience of the other two).

When playing 40k seems like a foregone conclusion and a total waste of time thee is something seriously wrong with the game.

sturguard
15-06-2015, 23:12
Completely off topic, but those 7e fluff abortions that can be summoned forth, really do the very best to destroy the game for me. Yes, you can use fluff to justify just about anything but it is the back story and the decades of good fluff that give this game the real edge anymore. Once they start to allow that to be made into a twisted, unloved chudling, it does more damage to the game then even the most non sensical over the top formations. Of course that is riddled with opinion, but through all the rules snafus and codex over nerfings, the fluff abominations really make me roll my eyes. Just damages my calm, if you get my meaning.

Be "a leaf on the wind"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ3MxC4B9Aw

insectum7
15-06-2015, 23:20
The problem with 40k now is that you can't even get a balanced game when playing 'fluffy', some of the most offensively broken combinations can be the fluffiest ways to run that army, how about the sky hammer formation or a fluffy Iyanden list based on the wraith host or a necron decurion, playing against any of those three is about as fun as doing shots of bleach (well ok, skyhammer is still a theoretical, but I have actual experience of the other two).


I rather enjoy playing against the Decurion, it's tough and "Necron-ey". I don't think it's unbalanced though, so there you go. Close combat spearheads driving at maximum Sweeping Advance is the anti-Decurion move. Since I'm low on painted heavy CC hitters, at least one of those Necron games was one of the rare times I've summoned those Bloodletters. Looking forward to bringing the new C:SM book against them.

Haven't fought Iyanden, but the amount of Grav I can take now makes me pretty comfortable about it.

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 23:22
Be "a leaf on the wind"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ3MxC4B9Aw

You know how that scene ends right? Pretty much sums up what it feels like to play the present edition of 40k all things considered.

Eldarsif
15-06-2015, 23:44
You know how that scene ends right?

They lost an independent character but won the battle? :D

Spiney Norman
15-06-2015, 23:50
They lost an independent character but won the battle? :D

I was thinking more of playing through a long and torturous game, feeling like you've finally done enough to win and then getting harpooned through the chest at the last moment. I feel like 40k is in a very odd place at the moment, it's one of the best sci-fi IPs in the table top gaming market in my view, and simultaneously one of the worst table top games out there in terms of balance and playability, unfotunately if you want a rewarding gaming experience based on the 40k IP you're much better off looking at FFG rather than GW these days. Still, I do enjoy the painting side of the hobby and that doesn't change much.

MajorWesJanson
15-06-2015, 23:50
They lost an independent character but won the battle? :D

Thanks to a a Callidus Assassin taking out all the slaaneshi loonies.

sturguard
16-06-2015, 01:02
You know how that scene ends right? Pretty much sums up what it feels like to play the present edition of 40k all things considered.

Yes, Serenity is one of my favorite movies. See, I feel GW is like parliment trying to make society better by giving us unbound and trying to squash the tournament scene out of 40k- but instead we all turned into Reavers... Think about it...

AngryAngel
16-06-2015, 01:49
Yes, Serenity is one of my favorite movies. See, I feel GW is like parliment trying to make society better by giving us unbound and trying to squash the tournament scene out of 40k- but instead we all turned into Reavers... Think about it...

So, GW is that medic rescue team commander in the holo vid, saying how what they did, they really did to help us all and meant it all for the best. Just moments before being torn apart and eaten alive by angry customers ? I can see it and agree.

sturguard
16-06-2015, 02:09
So, GW is that medic rescue team commander in the holo vid, saying how what they did, they really did to help us all and meant it all for the best. Just moments before being torn apart and eaten alive by angry customers ? I can see it and agree.

Either that or the assassin who can't live in the perfect world he helps create.

AngryAngel
16-06-2015, 04:41
I think either of those choices is giving GW too much credit. That would be giving them credit at least to learn from their mistakes for however short or long a time it would be. They'd be more like the shadowy government members, sitting back, recovering from loss of power and being ever vengeful, waiting to strike at those that hurt their bottom line.

The Assassin would be various game designers they've gotten rid of over the years. The torn apart medic woman would be perhaps the staunch front line store employees, and of course, we the customer base, are the reavers, some of us just give up and go to sleep and the others never do.

Really, this is about the most positive about GW I've ever been, thanks Firefly/Serenity.

GrandmasterWang
16-06-2015, 08:05
Are there any downright broken units in the Space Marine Codex? I am talking stand alone units that are far to cheap for the effectiveness?

Also, who do you guys think is the "most useless" special character?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
16-06-2015, 08:49
Yes, Serenity is one of my favorite movies. See, I feel GW is like parliment trying to make society better by giving us unbound and trying to squash the tournament scene out of 40k- but instead we all turned into Reavers... Think about it...

I can see a great many similarities between GW and the Alliance Parliament from Firefly, not giving a **** about their citizens/customers being chiefest among them. But we're getting way off topic here. Let's not pretend you have to be some kind of deranged psycho-path to break 40k, just regular 'I'd like my army to be good' sends the whole thing round the twist these days.

Gw actively encourages 'reaverdom' (whether intentionally or not) when they put out formations like the skyhammer and the wraith knight because you literally can't use them without being a d***.

Edit: I've decided I quite like the word 'reaver' to describe WAAC players, it has the advantage of not being swear-filtered like so many of the other terms I use for it.

StraightSilver
16-06-2015, 09:36
Are there any downright broken units in the Space Marine Codex? I am talking stand alone units that are far to cheap for the effectiveness?

Also, who do you guys think is the "most useless" special character?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


3 x Vindicators deployed on a SkyShield Landing Pad so that you can't see their rear armour (and get 180 degree fire arc for the apoc blast) with a Tech Marine with Thunderfire Cannon hidden in the middle is quite brutal.....

It means they get a 4++ and the huge template doesn't scatter back on them.

Having said that I wouldn't say it was too OP, you only have to destroy one (or weapon destroy) for them to lose the Apoc Blast.

Eldarsif
16-06-2015, 12:56
I was thinking more of playing through a long and torturous game, feeling like you've finally done enough to win and then getting harpooned through the chest at the last moment. I feel like 40k is in a very odd place at the moment, it's one of the best sci-fi IPs in the table top gaming market in my view, and simultaneously one of the worst table top games out there in terms of balance and playability, unfotunately if you want a rewarding gaming experience based on the 40k IP you're much better off looking at FFG rather than GW these days. Still, I do enjoy the painting side of the hobby and that doesn't change much.

Welcome to every edition of Warhammer 40.000. I don't think there has ever been anything close to army wide balance, and more or less every army has had to experience the dark side of the hobby(the harpoon you mention).

I doubt we'll see this fixed unless FFG or PP buys the IP.

nosebiter
16-06-2015, 13:01
Welcome to every edition of Warhammer 40.000. I don't think there has ever been anything close to army wide balance, and more or less every army has had to experience the dark side of the hobby(the harpoon you mention).

I doubt we'll see this fixed unless FFG or PP buys the IP.

Uhm. Warmahordes has its fair share of ballance issues too. Not as glaring as 40k, but they are there.

What annoys me, is that Gw can't seem to stick to one way of designing codexes for an entire codex run. How hard can it be to settle on a framework from the get fo and the FOLLOW IT to the end.

Eldarsif
16-06-2015, 13:19
Uhm. Warmahordes has its fair share of ballance issues too. Not as glaring as 40k, but they are there.

What annoys me, is that Gw can't seem to stick to one way of designing codexes for an entire codex run. How hard can it be to settle on a framework from the get fo and the FOLLOW IT to the end.

Not saying PP is perfect, but they are at a much better level than GW has ever been.

mashkeyboardgetusername
16-06-2015, 13:38
Could we try talking about space marines again? Pretty please?

So, what do people think of the new costs for land speeders, does it make them more viable? I'm quite keen to try them out, either as a multimelta or heavy flamer platform (both are 10 points cheaper). The latter especially looks neat at its price, putting two heavy flamers around the battlefield on a highly manoeuvrable platform could be pretty nasty against a lot of armies.

What looks to me like a really big winner though is the land speeder storm. It's BS4 now and even cheaper than the main land speeder while basically being the same survivability-wise (the things don't tend to get killed by explodes! results). I think they're a great choice if you only want a single gun on a speeder, and am currently planning to try a few with assault cannons as they're a pretty cheap way of putting those guns on the battlefield.
And that's not going into the cerberus launcher's buff. Large frag blasts are always handy, as is blind.

So, land speeders (normal and storms), are they decent or am I getting excited over nothing?

Konovalev
16-06-2015, 14:00
Could we try talking about space marines again? Pretty please?


When some users find an receptive audience to begin whining to about the sins of GW, it's difficult to rein things back in. Especially when we have this Skyhammer nonsense going on now. That really is a terrible formation.

I don't understand the complaints about the battle company (double demi) though. That's a pretty big tactical tax to pay for free razorbacks(I assume these are the best choice). I don't see how you can fit both demi's, the compulsory auxiliary, and decent firepower at or under 2000 points.

Shadeseraph
16-06-2015, 14:01
Wait, when did standard land speeders become bad?

Minsc
16-06-2015, 14:19
Wait, when did standard land speeders become bad?

Not sure. I've always liked my Typhoons, and now they became 5 pts cheaper.

Those who put Assault Cannons on their landspeeders should rejoice, they will now save up alot of points.



That's a pretty big tactical tax to pay for free razorbacks(I assume these are the best choice). I don't see how you can fit both demi's, the compulsory auxiliary, and decent firepower at or under 2000 points.

I made this 2000 pts Gladius-list which I will field the next time I play with my Salamanders.

I'd say it has decent enough firepower, altough with some obvious flaws (like lack of AA).
Should be fun to play with, although 395 pts for "free" is pretty silly. :cheese:



*Captain /w Artificer Armour, Stormshield, Thunderhammer.

*Chaplain

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Flamer, Combiflamer.
Razorback /w TL-Lascannon

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Flamer, Combiflamer.
Razorback /w TL-Lascannon

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Melta, Combimelta.
Razorback /w Lascannon, Plasmagun.

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Melta, Combimelta.
Razorback /w Lascannon, Plasmagun.

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Lascannon.
Rhino.

*Tactical Squad (5x) /w Lascannon.
Rhino.

*Command Squad (5x) /w 5x Flamers.
Drop Pod.

*Ironclad Dreadnaught /w 2x Heavy Flamers.
Drop Pod.

*Assault Centurion Squad (5x) /w Hurricane Bolters, TL-Flamers.

*Devastator Centurion Squad (3x) /w Gravcannons, Hurricane Bolters.
Drop Pod.

*Devastator Squad (5x) /w 2x Plasmacannons.

*1x Landspeeder /w Typhoon Missile Launcher.

- - - - - - - - -
Suppression Force (Auxiliary)

*1x Landspeeder /w Typhoon Missile Launcher.

*2x Whirlwinds.

sturguard
16-06-2015, 14:24
Konovalev,
Its easy just do the math. You can fit the double demi (I feel like I'm talking about a bra now) in 1500 pts as I listed a few pages back and easily in 1850- and at 1500 getting 8 razorbacks with either las/plas or TLL for 160 pts is fine? Your 6 squads of tacs are scoring and firing a heavy weapon, your devs or Centurion devs (which are actually cheaper per squad with lascannons than the devs) are blowing stuff up, and the land speeders are on anti infantry (and dont forget they have OS as well- people didnt like the 51 pt jetbikes being scoring, now 50 pt landspeeders are). I also feel the formation is pretty flexible besides the 6 tac squads, but even with 6 lascannons we only pay 540 pts- that is really your tax. Now given in most armies you have to take at least 2 tac squads, you are really only talking a 400 pt tax for 8 free razorbacks. I think the formation is actually more brutal at lower point costs because if you up the point totals you arent going to necessarily get many more razorbacks- nor would most people have 10-12 razorbacks. No, this formation can be a back breaker in 1500 pt games.

sturguard
16-06-2015, 14:27
Not sure. I've always liked my Typhoons, and now they became 5 pts cheaper.

Those who put Assault Cannons on their landspeeders should rejoice, they will now save up alot of points.

I made this 2000 pts Gladius-list which I will field the next time I play with my Salamanders.

I'd say it has decent enough firepower, altough with some obvious flaws (like lack of AA).
Should be fun to play with, although 395 pts for "free" is pretty silly. :cheese:

And you can play close to the same army in 1500 pts- drop the command squad, IK and Assault Centurion Squad- that will leave you a few points to make some changes. Personally, I would put the captain and chaplain in the Devastator Centurion squad for a mini deathstar and change the 2 rhinos to razorbacks.

StraightSilver
16-06-2015, 14:50
Can I just check - how are the Land Speeders Objective Secured? I know they are scoring but didn't realise they had OS. Is that from the demi company formation?

That actually makes them worth having - especially with their extra move if you have them in a squadron of 3.

insectum7
16-06-2015, 15:36
Can I just check - how are the Land Speeders Objective Secured? I know they are scoring but didn't realise they had OS. Is that from the demi company formation?

That actually makes them worth having - especially with their extra move if you have them in a squadron of 3.

Objective Secured is gained by all units taking part in a Demi Company. This means Tacs, Devs, Assaults, Speeders, Drednoughts, Centurions, Command Squads. . . all their transports, Independent Characters even, anybody that is part of that formation.

Personally I'm a fan of the Land Speeder with double Heavy Flamer for cheap.

NoobLord
16-06-2015, 15:37
Objective Secured is gained by all units taking part in a Demi Company. This means Tacs, Devs, Assaults, Speeders, Drednoughts, Centurions, Command Squads. . . all their transports, Independent Characters even, anybody that is part of that formation.

Wow. Didn't know that. That seems massive.

StraightSilver
16-06-2015, 15:51
Oh wow - I completely missed that.

That does actually change my opinion of the demi company massively - wasn't sure it was worth it but in Maelstrom of War missions that is a beast!!

insectum7
16-06-2015, 16:02
We play Maelstrom almost exclusively at my club, it's going to be brutal.

Eldarsif
16-06-2015, 16:40
We play Maelstrom almost exclusively at my club, it's going to be brutal.

Same here. I think more or less everyone in my meta moved over to MoW after trying it. It just makes the game much more dynamic and fluid.

murgel2006
16-06-2015, 17:13
The more I read and hear about this codex the more I look forward to having it.
It reads very fluffy. Even more so than the Eldar one so far and fluffy is what I like. Sure it will have some very OP stuff but hell GW always did it that way.
Maybe the general style to play will change not just the varying metas but the general approach. With the ways of building lists (Det/form) instead of FOC and the option to have real fluffy selections being really powerful.

I will state however that it currently looks like the quick pick up will have a hard time. The powerful formations make it more necessary than ever to agree on terms with my opponent AND/OR to have a GM ruling the game.

Still, as a player mainly doing campaigns I really love the stuff I hear.

Spiney Norman
16-06-2015, 17:18
Wow. Didn't know that. That seems massive.

It matters if you're playing MoW against an army not using a combined arms detachment, otherwise it's one of the most superfluous rules in the history of the game. Obsec has literally never had any impact on any game I have played since 7th came out.

NoobLord
16-06-2015, 17:26
It matters if you're playing MoW against an army not using a combined arms detachment, otherwise it's one of the most superfluous rules in the history of the game. Obsec has literally never had any impact on any game I have played since 7th came out.

Doesn't it also have an effect against an army that is using a CAD as well in that your obsec units will deny control to his, or have I misunderstood this rule?

insectum7
16-06-2015, 17:27
I will state however that it currently looks like the quick pick up will have a hard time. The powerful formations make it more necessary than ever to agree on terms with my opponent AND/OR to have a GM ruling the game.


I think the Formations to stay away from are pretty obviously the full company, and the Skyhammer. Both of which are sort of powerful gimmicks, but not a whole lot of depth. I've been finding that the most satisfying lists so far for me are building the Gladius Strike Force, which feels more or less like a traditional Space Marine list. It's easier to get a nice diversity of models into the army, and the extra buffs the Demi-Co and Gladius bring make them look more useful/flexible.

I love that Dreadnoughts get Chapter Tactics now, too. We're talking five S 10 attacks, re-rolling ones to hit on the charge if you coordinate it.


Doesn't it also have an effect against an army that is using a CAD as well in that your obsec units will deny control to his, or have I misunderstood this rule?

The ObSec units will compete with each other. Standard troops in a CAD will cancel out ObSec from the Demi-Company, it's a draw. The units in question will have to settle it the old fashioned way by killing each other :)

TemperMaximus
16-06-2015, 17:46
The Gladius is nice but expensive in terms of money and points and the result is not especially killy. I think it will have an effect on local gaming scenes but not hugely and I expect it to have almost zero effect on tournaments. The individual formations are mostly decent. I am liking the Suppression Force because it is a cheap auxiliary and actually makes the humble Whirlwind a threat again.

Not much sticks out to me as overpowered (apart from the ridiculous web store formation that shall not be named) but grav is still a candidate. It is stronger in most scenarios than any of the other heavy weapons choices and it is still possible to use psychic shenanigans with the devastator centurion squad. The librarius conclave I would definitely expect someone to find a way to abuse. I actually expect the vindicator formations to be much less of a threat than people think simply because it is so frightening that the opponent will throw all their anti-tank at it just to shake/stun/destroy one of the models. The 24" range is a key thing to keep in mind. It would be interesting to see someone bring an armoured task force with 9+ vindicators and possibly some TFC. THAT could be ridiculous although it obviously has weaknesses such as no AA.