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Beppo1234
09-06-2015, 19:53
seriously, for $200+ CAD, I feel I should get a fully poseable model. I mean honestly, the IG Sentinel is more poseable. It's not like I have a problem cutting up and reposing the leg bits, but for the price I shouldn't have to.

That is all.

MajorWesJanson
09-06-2015, 19:57
Noted, and agreed.

On the other hand monopose legs do make for much easier assembly than the FW style "pose each toe and cut pistons to fit) method. Too bad they didn't think of the dual pose option until they came out with the Ironstrider. That is a decent middle ground between alternate poses and ease of build.

Beppo1234
09-06-2015, 20:04
thanks for understanding MWJ!

Now, I've delayed my purchase of a knight until now... what I gotta figure out is a color scheme!


do like how rules and point values are included in the box though. I like that idea, but at this point still pointless given you really still need to pick up the book(s) to play. I think it would be sweet if there were small booklet in each kit that contained 'everything you need to know to operate this unit in game'. It's one of those consequences of putting premium prices on the codexes, and introducing unbound.

jeffersonian000
11-06-2015, 12:52
I'm rebuilding a set of legs to look more horse-like, for an "Equestrius" pattern Lancer based on the current Warden kit. Because I can. Thinking on giving in a unicorn horn on the helm, and painting it baby blue.

Oh! And if you don't like the kit, don't buy the kit. GW prefers for to vote with our wallets, so tell them what you want by buying it, and what you don't want by boycotting it.

SJ


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Beppo1234
11-06-2015, 14:29
I'm rebuilding a set of legs to look more horse-like, for an "Equestrius" pattern Lancer based on the current Warden kit. Because I can. Thinking on giving in a unicorn horn on the helm, and painting it baby blue.

Oh! And if you don't like the kit, don't buy the kit. GW prefers for to vote with our wallets, so tell them what you want by buying it, and what you don't want by boycotting it.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

voting with wallets, along with the concept of peaceful protest have gone extinct. Both rely on the protesters being able to deny the hegemonic power what they need and injure them. It is irrelevant in today's world, where the hegemonic power can simply be patient and wait for said peaceful protest to disperse out of necessity or boredom. Those in charge have greater reserves and can outlast any and most protest. The protester always looses in today's world, the world just doesn't work that way anymore.

jeffersonian000
12-06-2015, 11:32
Except that GW is small company with openly traded stock, which means their profitability directly impacts the direction of the company. Previous "wallet voting" has lead to a faster release cycle and escalation of the game, where poor sales influenced by bad rules have influenced newer rules to promote better sales. Because economics.

SJ


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Mr. Shine
12-06-2015, 12:37
Pffft. When the player base stops buying certain models en masse...

...Games Workshop just releases an attractive formation with the poor selling model as a required tax.

Beppo1234
12-06-2015, 13:04
Except that GW is small company with openly traded stock, which means their profitability directly impacts the direction of the company. Previous "wallet voting" has lead to a faster release cycle and escalation of the game, where poor sales influenced by bad rules have influenced newer rules to promote better sales. Because economics.

SJ


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you are assuming perfect coordination among GW consumers and that's unrealistic and unattainable. GW could outlast any protest.

another gripe. Even though I've bent the leg on my knight, the design of the model doesn't really allow for the knee to bend regardless. Actually quite sad that the design can't actually locomote.

jeffersonian000
12-06-2015, 19:43
I'm assuming economics and a small business mentality. Customers dictate what the market will bear in a free market. This hobby is no different.

SJ


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Beppo1234
13-06-2015, 01:24
those are unrealistic assumptions. Customers dictate the price the market will bear, not the quality of output.

jeffersonian000
14-06-2015, 13:16
those are unrealistic assumptions. Customers dictate the price the market will bear, not the quality of output.

That's not how economics works. Pricing and quality are controlled by the producer, not the consumer. The consumer dictates what they are willing to buy via not buying what they don't want or cannot afford. Producers price at market value, set quality at market value, and supply at market capacity. To guarantee maximized sales, a producer brings to market just enough product at just enough quality and at the highest cost per item to sell 100% of their product. Competition will drive pricing, quality, and quantity.

GW had no real competition, as there were no comparable product lines to compete with them. There are niche gaming companies these days, but nothing on the same tier as GW, although Privateer Press is close. GW feels their market share eroding, and have changed their business plan from quantity to quality, and have increased their pricing while decreasing availability. This has a market shock effect of focusing the customer base while maximizing profitability. Customers complain, but they still buy. GW doesn't care about potential customers that cannot afford their product, they only care about the customers that want their product enough to buy it. Limited production runs plus high cost per unit equal status within the market.

You don't buy the jar of $15 peanut butter because it's better, you buy it because it shows others that you can afford it when they cannot. GW is the $15 peanut butter.

SJ


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Beppo1234
14-06-2015, 13:56
that's great and all. But my point still stands: the market is not a bunch of rational scientists and mathematicians, it is not rational, does not know economics, nor has a small business mentality. They are customers of an exclusive miniatures war game that has only one supplier.

Achieving that coordination in protest will not affect model design. It will effect a price drop to increase sales of the low quality existing product, rather than take on additional sunk cost to the original sunk cost of the low quality model in the hopes that the market will approve. In the case of the Knight, they added new stuff to it, rather than redesign existing model. Such protest would have to be chronic and long term for re-design to occur. This market is fickle (for example, I bought this Knight after a year of contemplation even though I disagree with it). And if such a protest does result in a price drop, the drive for a redesign dies a quick death as the quality:price ratio begins to erode the support the protest had in the first place, as hold-outs begin to re-join the market.

basically what I'm saying: protest all you want, but I'm certain one will not get the right quantity of people, nor will one achieve a vigorous enough protest over a long period of time to effect a change. It's not that that kind of coordination is impossible, but it is highly improbable. Hong Kong's democratic push last year was a perfect example... Chinese government said to itself 'just wait until it starts raining', and the protest evaporated. Same can obviously be applied to GW.

the last two attempted protests I saw were 'smash up you tyranid' campaign, then the buy old SOBs 'campaign'... both failures for the same reason. No one got behind them. I don't think this group of people could get coordinated enough to achieve those goals... otherwise this would still be a hobby 'by hobbyists for hobbyists'.

Mr. Shine
14-06-2015, 21:39
You don't buy the jar of $15 peanut butter because it's better, you buy it because it shows others that you can afford it when they cannot. GW is the $15 peanut butter.

Unless you're buying the $4.50 peanut butter that has a visually identical label and what looks to be identical contents, though would smell funny if you ever did remove the lid. But why would you remove the lid onf a jar of peanut butter you're using for playing table top miniature war games? :p

It's entirely possible Games Workshop are heading towards pricing themselves out of business because people are and will increasingly continue to buy Chinese knock offs that look exactly the same bar the odd miscast, which is cheap enough to replace. Unless you have someone pulling pieces off or snapping your models, the only thing you need to buy are genuine Games Workshop bases and the difference simply cannot be told.

Also, economics, don't forget ceteris paribus etc.

jeffersonian000
14-06-2015, 22:34
I'm sorry that people think I'm apologizing for GW, when in fact I'm not. They are following a very destructive business plan that is killing their market by focusing on exclusivity via pricing themselves out of competitiveness.

That was my point. GW does understand economics (how to meet infinite need with finite resources), as seen in their current plan to milk a shrinking market by causing the market to shrink. It's like they hired a banking executive to run their business. By pricing themselves out of their own market and flooding their market with too many releases too quickly, their customer base is not buying as much as they use to, is delaying purchases due to market shock, as seen in the continued drop in GW quarterly earnings.

So yes, voting with your wallet has a huge impact, as we are currently seeing with GW. The hobby is becoming more exclusive, with a smaller and smaller clientele. Yes, the models are getting better, and truly are the best in the world for your dollar, where the only comparable models are not game related. Yet, who's buying them? I'm not. You might not. That is economics.

SJ


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3eland
14-06-2015, 23:00
Love how this thread went from griping about the mono-pose knight to economics.

However I too wish it was given at least some ability to repose, even if it was 2 static pose options.

Beppo1234
14-06-2015, 23:31
I'm sorry that people think I'm apologizing for GW, when in fact I'm not. They are following a very destructive business plan that is killing their market by focusing on exclusivity via pricing themselves out of competitiveness.

That was my point. GW does understand economics (how to meet infinite need with finite resources), as seen in their current plan to milk a shrinking market by causing the market to shrink. It's like they hired a banking executive to run their business. By pricing themselves out of their own market and flooding their market with too many releases too quickly, their customer base is not buying as much as they use to, is delaying purchases due to market shock, as seen in the continued drop in GW quarterly earnings.

So yes, voting with your wallet has a huge impact, as we are currently seeing with GW. The hobby is becoming more exclusive, with a smaller and smaller clientele. Yes, the models are getting better, and truly are the best in the world for your dollar, where the only comparable models are not game related. Yet, who's buying them? I'm not. You might not. That is economics.

SJ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, you can affect the GW as a whole, that's for certain. But no concerted effort to effect change to a model in an existing line is not going to work at GW's scale. My opinion on GWs performance is simple: over-expansion, supported by price increases (which I think is kind of their moto). I feel like they've been playing the catch-up game ever since they started the large plastic model line (maybe as far back as the Fortress of Redemption) I think that, coupled with accessibility are the problem.



Love how this thread went from griping about the mono-pose knight to economics.

However I too wish it was given at least some ability to repose, even if it was 2 static pose options.

agreed. Some ball-joints on the ankle bits and good orientation of the hexagonal male hip joint could have allowed for some differentiation in pose. I'm a one knight kind of guy, but given the longevity of my 40k affliction, I'm sure I'll buy another one at some point in the distant future, and will be scratching my head on what to do with it. I'm ok with mono-pose minis, but these are center piece sized models, and I lose the whole cinematic effect of the game when center pieces are obviously monoposed.

I'd like to disclaim all this by saying it's not a bad model by any standard. It's a great model, the upper body design is fantastic, the way the armor plates are all easily left off for painting access. Just the legs could just be a little closer to perfect.

jeffersonian000
15-06-2015, 12:20
I agree, the legs could have been sectional for posability, just like any old Gundam model. Maybe someday GW will embrace polycaps for models that are more toy than game piece. Or maybe not.

SJ


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hobojebus
15-06-2015, 15:06
http://dreamforge-games.com/products/leviathan-crusader

Bigger, full poseability and cheaper.

jeffersonian000
15-06-2015, 16:54
http://dreamforge-games.com/products/leviathan-crusader

Bigger, full poseability and cheaper.

It looks great, and I've almost worked myself up to buying one ... it's just that the open midriff is a huge turn off. I keep wanting to get one so I can figure out how to make it look less stupid.

SJ


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ViperGold
16-06-2015, 01:10
Edit: Wrong thread

ViperGold
16-06-2015, 01:13
those are unrealistic assumptions. Customers dictate the price the market will bear, not the quality of output.
And look where that got us...

Were clearly doing something wrong

insectum7
16-06-2015, 01:35
http://dreamforge-games.com/products/leviathan-crusader

Bigger, full poseability and cheaper.

Horribly ugly though! To each his own and everything, but man I'm happy to pay the extra dough for a model that I think looks magnitudes more sophisticated.

hobojebus
16-06-2015, 13:44
Horribly ugly though! To each his own and everything, but man I'm happy to pay the extra dough for a model that I think looks magnitudes more sophisticated.

Well nothing says you cant kit bash it to look more imperial but the fact remains it's a superior kit for less money.

Beppo1234
16-06-2015, 14:04
And look where that got us...

Were clearly doing something wrong

we are not coordinated. I'm so guilty of it. I complain about pricing, then adjust my spending behavior to be able to afford the model in question. Which returns us all to the plastic crack argument: GW can raise prices because we are fickle addicts.

hobojebus
16-06-2015, 19:16
we are not coordinated. I'm so guilty of it. I complain about pricing, then adjust my spending behavior to be able to afford the model in question. Which returns us all to the plastic crack argument: GW can raise prices because we are fickle addicts.

Speak for yourself please i left when 7th came out and haven't spent a penny on GW stuff since, not because there isn't stuff i like but because voting with my wallet is my only way to communicate my displeasure.

As long as you keep handing over money they'll keep rising prices you are in a literal sense the problem.

Beppo1234
16-06-2015, 21:04
well, people like me are. But there is enough of us for GW to behave this way. So no one is really at fault.

in my defense: I did wait until I brought my 500+ miniature imperial army up to my highest possible standard (for the quantity) before diving into new stuff and superheavies. I held off on the baneblade kit from the moment it was released until this summer. This is essentially my summer of superheavies, as I've finished a massive Loyalist and matching Traitor army. I'm not as impulsive as others I've seen, I do have a plan and a constraint to limit myself with. Mostly my rule is 'one must own an appropriate amount of army to justify a super-heavy model'

then there are those that have armies consisting of 3+ Knights...


and again just to disclaim: the Knight is an awesome model, but it would be so much better if the legs were designed with a little more flexibility in mind.

Beppo1234
16-06-2015, 21:05
well, people like me are. But there is enough of us for GW to behave this way. So no one is really at fault.

in my defense: I did wait until I brought my 500+ miniature imperial army up to my highest possible standard (for the quantity) before diving into new stuff and superheavies. I held off on the baneblade kit from the moment it was released until this summer. This is essentially my summer of superheavies, as I've finished a massive Loyalist and matching Traitor army. I'm not as impulsive as others I've seen, I do have a plan and a constraint to limit myself with. Mostly my rule is 'one must own an appropriate amount of army to justify a super-heavy model'

then there are those that have armies consisting of 3+ Knights...


and again just to disclaim: the Knight is an awesome model, but it would be so much better if the legs were designed with a little more flexibility in mind.

lordbeefy
17-06-2015, 11:40
Im guilty of the plastic crack syndrome myself. I love my guard/blood angels/mechanicum force and have a single knight. Pretty much anything new will ultimately find its way into my collection. The only difference is that the better it is the sooner I get it.

If you want to field the unit then the choice is to buy it. gw have a near total mmonopoly on the 40k world so conform! The op point remains though. It would have been nice to get a more easily posable model.