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thanoson
10-06-2015, 19:14
So, I've been playing 40k since '86. Something has been bothering lately about how the game is going. I always read stories about besieged forces coming into battles against the tyranids. In most of these stories, there is only 1 tyrant involved leading the aliens. Why do we have list with 3+ tyrants? To me, that's like having 2 Avatars leading a force. Anyone else think like this?

Theocracity
10-06-2015, 19:22
If two Avatars made for a competitive Eldar list, you'd see that on the table too. People who build and propagate 'competitive' lists usually don't care about fluff or what 'should' be on the table - only what can do the most damage in the most reliable and resilient manner.

thanoson
10-06-2015, 19:52
Meh, you're right. Really wish this game went back to the basics.

Theocracity
10-06-2015, 20:03
The super-detachment FOC they've introduced recently (the Decurion / War Host / Gladius Strike Force / etc) is at least a step in that direction. While some may quibble about the inclusion of 'tax' units, required point size or balance of the special rule boosts they do at least incentivize builds that look like you expect a standard force to look.

Lord Damocles
10-06-2015, 20:08
Meh, you're right. Really wish this game went back to the basics.
Non-fluffy lists have been around since forever.

It's not like they've only shown up recently.

itcamefromthedeep
10-06-2015, 21:08
The Tyranid codex does an awful job of representing the models and the background. The disproportionate value of flying Hive Tyrants is hardly the worst offender on the list of ways the army on the table fails to line up with the background.

thanoson
10-06-2015, 21:22
Non-fluffy lists have been around since forever.

It's not like they've only shown up recently.

But they have been encouraged moreso with the last edition and these data slates.

Snake Tortoise
10-06-2015, 21:32
The tyranid codex isn't very strong and they need tricks like this to be competitive. I never crossed the two hive tyrant line with my nids because I like to find a balance between good and fluffy, but my nids wouldn't have stood a chance in a really tough tournament. It's frustrating that for a tyranid list to be effective against vehicles they are forced to spam flying monstrous creatures which don't make for a very fun game

I'd love everyone at GW to be locked in a cinema and forced to watch (Clockwork Orange style) 1000 games of normal fluffy tyranids vs imperial knights to see how nids get absolutely battered by armour, then forced to watch 1000 games of tyranid skyblight vs knights to show how dull the game came become when tyranids use their only answer to things like knights. An endless, boring stalemate. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only an endless, boring stalemate.


The Tyranid codex does an awful job of representing the models and the background. The disproportionate value of flying Hive Tyrants is hardly the worst offender on the list of ways the army on the table fails to line up with the background.

This

Lord Damocles
11-06-2015, 20:52
But they have been encouraged moreso with the last edition and these data slates.
Not really.

You can make some different unfluffy armies now.

Snake Tortoise
11-06-2015, 22:51
Not really.

You can make some different unfluffy armies now.

In fairness the endless horde is fluffy and a decent reason to field lots of little guys as tyranids are depicted. The problem is the options for ground based synapse just aren't good enough, and the more gaunts the more synapse you need. You could end up flooding the table with little guys but having no practical way to deal with vehicles

Still, I'd be curious to see how a maxed out endless swarm (30x3 terms, 30x3 horms) would do with the rest of the list made up of cheap warriors, primes, shrikes etc. A nightmare to move around but very fluffy and the massive footprint and number of (respawning) wounds would be a challenge to face

Even without endless swarm if a nid player brought 20x10 termagants (800 pts) and a strong synapse web to keep them in check they could really throw a spanner in the meta. Win or lose I'd love to face that kind of list just once

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2015, 00:46
The trouble with Tyranid hordes is that gaunts have difficulty accomplishing things. They have a hard time doing stuff like removing enemy models or not dying or getting from one place to another. That means that a horde needs to fit in not only gaunts, but also enough synapse coverage to handle them, and then on top of that you need models that actually bring punch.

Recycled gaunts from an Endless Swarm are often coming in on turn 3 or 4, from your table edge. That makes it difficult for them to get back in the action before the game is over. Trygon Swarm Tunnels can mitigate this, but I've never seen the tactic function in practice.

If you want to make a horde list work and you don't want to bring MCs then you're in trouble. Primes are really pricey. Your venomthropes and malanthropes and ranged anti-tank are almost all in Elites. The only way I've found to square that circle is with Tyrant Guard from Leviathan Rising 3, where the entry doesn't have the "one brood per Tyrant" sidebar, allowing you to take a single Tyrant Guard model as an HQ for the purposes of spamming CADs. You can bring many units of 1 Zoanthrope or 1 Hive Guard or 1 Biovore for your firepower needs.

Still, the problem remains that gaunts are bad at things for their price.

thanoson
12-06-2015, 03:44
See, I normally can bring in my hormagants to do a lot of work. Toxin sacs go a long way with 20 of them. Outflank them in so they can get closer to that wraithlord or that small termy squad. I normally bring them in next to a squad of 15 stealers with a broodlord. Maybe drop in a zoey squad as well. Now my opponent has choices. What ever he doesn't kill is going to kill him. I wish they would treat the Trygon hole like the chaos daemons ICon and instrument. Bringing in another squad at the same time would fix the hole's problem and make it more useful.

Snake Tortoise
12-06-2015, 09:16
The trouble with Tyranid hordes is that gaunts have difficulty accomplishing things. They have a hard time doing stuff like removing enemy models or not dying or getting from one place to another. That means that a horde needs to fit in not only gaunts, but also enough synapse coverage to handle them, and then on top of that you need models that actually bring punch.

Recycled gaunts from an Endless Swarm are often coming in on turn 3 or 4, from your table edge. That makes it difficult for them to get back in the action before the game is over. Trygon Swarm Tunnels can mitigate this, but I've never seen the tactic function in practice.

If you want to make a horde list work and you don't want to bring MCs then you're in trouble. Primes are really pricey. Your venomthropes and malanthropes and ranged anti-tank are almost all in Elites. The only way I've found to square that circle is with Tyrant Guard from Leviathan Rising 3, where the entry doesn't have the "one brood per Tyrant" sidebar, allowing you to take a single Tyrant Guard model as an HQ for the purposes of spamming CADs. You can bring many units of 1 Zoanthrope or 1 Hive Guard or 1 Biovore for your firepower needs.

Still, the problem remains that gaunts are bad at things for their price.

Lacking a punch really does seem like the major issue. For a lot of gaunts you need a lot of synapse, and the synapse creatures just don't hit very hard. These days I'd be terrified of a trygon prime or tervigon getting hit with a D weapon, warriors aren't tough enough to be reliable synapse, neither are zoanthropes. I'd say the prime is quite a good synapse anchor if you run it cheap and put it in a blob of 30 gaunts within reach of other big gaunt units so it can hop from one to another if necessary, but they obviously provide no answer to vehicles and provide no effective ranged output.

So we come back to lists with little requirement of synapse (i.e. few or no gaunts) and multiple flyrants. That's what drove me away from tyranids. Nids seem like the only army which can't be fluffy and good at the same time

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2015, 12:20
If I'm staring down an Adamantine Lance or CenturionStar or a wall of Rhinos with Skitarii in them plus some Onagers or the new Wraithknights or a Windrider Host... Toxigaunts don't really solve my problems.

They're too slow, and the variety of models the can't handle is too large.

Vector Strike
12-06-2015, 13:59
You have Exocrines and Trygons for that. Terma/Horma shouldn't solve everything, as a puny Guardsman cannot deal with those stuff as well. That's why they're costed so little.

Leftenant Gashrog
12-06-2015, 14:41
Fluffwise Tyrants have always only ever been mid-level boss-beasts, that's why when they first appeared in 40k in 2nd edition they were mandatory for every Tyranid force and you were allowed 1 per 1,000pts in the army (average army size at the time being 1500-2500), as opposed to being 0-1 per army like Avatars.

As far as I'm aware even the Dominatrix Bio-Titans (for whom the Tyrants serve as intermediate synapse links with lesser troops) aren't singular.

itcamefromthedeep
12-06-2015, 21:19
You have Exocrines and Trygons for that. Terma/Horma shouldn't solve everything, as a puny Guardsman cannot deal with those stuff as well. That's why they're costed so little.
Puny Guardsmen bring lascannons, meltaguns and grenades. Ork Boyz can bring Klaw-Nobz and rokkits.

I think a horde army should be able to win games with only its small-based models, like the other horde armies can. I'd love for Phil Kelly's Tyranid Swarm to make for entertaining games, but it really doesn't allow both players to have fun. You shouldn't need Trygons and Exocrines to get things done. Nidzilla, midzilla and horde armies should all be functional against a wide variety of opponents, much the same way as Guard infantry armies, armored companies and the march of Ogryns should all be viable.

Gaunts are entirely capable as chaff models, taking up board space for you and making it easier to bully enemy units (charge your Tervigon into basic marines and your Gaunts into the power fist models to tie them up) but the gaunts have a really hard time winning fights against models of comparable cost or size.

Rather than being a fast horde army that's good at close combat, Tyranids are a slow, super-elite firefight army with some chaff for utility.

shabbadoo
13-06-2015, 11:04
The last time Tyranids worked "like Tyranids" was in 2E. GW defined them in 2E...and have been busy breaking them every since. They really need a "Hivefleet" Formation of some kind, and that doesn't necessarily mean recycling units either. Also, having multiple clawed limbs and a biting mouth should have all but the lowliest of Tyrands having 2 Attacks base. So...

Termagant: 2 Att
Hormagaunt: 3 Att
Gargoyle: 2 Att
Ripper Swarm: 3 Wounds, Attacks = to their current wounds, lower their outrageous price of 13 points per base to about 8, remove the spinefists option (it is just lame), and cut adrenal glands and toxin sacs upgrades by half.

Then, give Tyranids a formation that actually looks like a Tyranid swarm, yet has rules which allows it to have a chance against the lame army builds people often field. For example:


Leviathan Formation

1 Hive Tyrant
1-3 Tyranid Warrior Broods
2+ Termagant Broods
2+ Hormagaunt Broods
2+ Ripper Swarm Broods
1+ Gargoyle Brood
0-1 Carnifex Brood

Special Rules

Protect the Head!
The Hive Tyrant may use any model within 6" for Look Out Sir! rolls.

Unstoppable Horde
All broods with the Instinctive Behavior rule which are in synapse range gain the Feel No Pain special rule.

Unrelenting Tide
All broods with the Instinctive Behavior rule and 10+ wounds worth of current models making close combat attacks gain the Armour Bane rule against vehicles, and the Rending rule against Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan Creatures.

Restrictions
The Hive Tyrant cannot have wings.

It would be nice to play with, or against, a Tyranid force that actually was representative of what Tyranids are all about. And GW needs to pull their head out of their butts and make Lictors what they once were- something the other player didn't look forward to seeing revealed. They don't need to be super killers, but they do need to be able to threaten something immediately upon being revealed. The current stats are decent, but they should have 4 Attacks. Get rid of Stealth and Have Chameleonic Skin give it Shrouded, and give the Lictor a deployment special rule which functions similar to a Drop Pod, but which allows it to Assault the turn it arrives. And raise its cost to 70-75 points (yep, people will have to pay for usefulness, but they probably wouldn't mind doing so).

I don't have much of a problem with anything else, other than for the predilection of too many people fielding armies of just big creatures- multiple Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors for Troops, and all the other big stuff they can cram in. That just isn't what Tyranids are about, but many people resort to building such forces because a Tyranid horde is just too out-classed in too many ways. And so we don't really see them any more, which is sad.

Lord Damocles
13-06-2015, 11:20
The last time Tyranids worked "like Tyranids" was in 2E.
And yet in 2nd edition, people were still doing 'unfluffy' things like running Tyranid armies made up entirely of Warriors with Warp Fields (an example Jervis actually called out in White Dwarf...)

Shadeseraph
13-06-2015, 12:52
The last time Tyranids worked "like Tyranids" was in 2E. GW defined them in 2E...and have been busy breaking them every since. They really need a "Hivefleet" Formation of some kind, and that doesn't necessarily mean recycling units either. Also, having multiple clawed limbs and a biting mouth should have all but the lowliest of Tyrands having 2 Attacks base. So...

Termagant: 2 Att
Hormagaunt: 3 Att
Gargoyle: 2 Att
Ripper Swarm: 3 Wounds, Attacks = to their current wounds, lower their outrageous price of 13 points per base to about 8, remove the spinefists option (it is just lame), and cut adrenal glands and toxin sacs upgrades by half.

Then, give Tyranids a formation that actually looks like a Tyranid swarm, yet has rules which allows it to have a chance against the lame army builds people often field. For example:



It would be nice to play with, or against, a Tyranid force that actually was representative of what Tyranids are all about. And GW needs to pull their head out of their butts and make Lictors what they once were- something the other player didn't look forward to seeing revealed. They don't need to be super killers, but they do need to be able to threaten something immediately upon being revealed. The current stats are decent, but they should have 4 Attacks. Get rid of Stealth and Have Chameleonic Skin give it Shrouded, and give the Lictor a deployment special rule which functions similar to a Drop Pod, but which allows it to Assault the turn it arrives. And raise its cost to 70-75 points (yep, people will have to pay for usefulness, but they probably wouldn't mind doing so).

I don't have much of a problem with anything else, other than for the predilection of too many people fielding armies of just big creatures- multiple Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors for Troops, and all the other big stuff they can cram in. That just isn't what Tyranids are about, but many people resort to building such forces because a Tyranid horde is just too out-classed in too many ways. And so we don't really see them any more, which is sad.

I heartily endorse this event or product.

(and yes, I'd pay 75 pts happily for such a lictor)

hazmiter
13-06-2015, 13:09
Fluffwise Tyrants have always only ever been mid-level boss-beasts, that's why when they first appeared in 40k in 2nd edition they were mandatory for every Tyranid force and you were allowed 1 per 1,000pts in the army (average army size at the time being 1500-2500), as opposed to being 0-1 per army like Avatars.

As far as I'm aware even the Dominatrix Bio-Titans (for whom the Tyrants serve as intermediate synapse links with lesser troops) aren't singular.

In the case of a dominatrix being present on the field, one could expect the number of tyrants spawned to add in support to be exponential. (Yes i know, the dominatrix has no model or rules).

In addition, a tyrant cant be on all battlefields on a planet being over run, yes, warriors pick up the slack a little, but one could assume that where there is one tyrant, then its feasable that there are at least 2 more running around, in some other sector of the planet being overrun. Rarely would there be 2-3 in one place at one time unless the situation demands it.

Asofar as playstyle goes. Yes. Nids get punished for playing fluffy :(

Angelwing
13-06-2015, 17:50
And yet in 2nd edition, people were still doing 'unfluffy' things like running Tyranid armies made up entirely of Warriors with Warp Fields (an example Jervis actually called out in White Dwarf...)

That was an incredibly expensive option for warriors. Voltage field was much more manageable.

Inquisitor Kallus
13-06-2015, 18:33
Im with you my good man. Im not a fan of seeing this, 2 Ork Warbosses, 2 marine captains etc as well as all the ridiculous shenanigans with allying un-fluffy stuff and the like.when its literally just to have a more powerful force. It kind of breaks the immersion of the story, background and so on.

shabbadoo
14-06-2015, 10:02
And yet in 2nd edition, people were still doing 'unfluffy' things like running Tyranid armies made up entirely of Warriors with Warp Fields (an example Jervis actually called out in White Dwarf...)
Yes, but it was less prevalent because more of the lesser Tyranid stuff could actually affect most of the other stuff in the game. Nowadays, the lowly termagant and hormagaunt face an ever increasing array of "beyond normal" elite infantry, vehicles, gargantuan creatures, super heavies, and similar things which they can either do not a single thing against or have a fart in a whirlwind's chance of doing anything against. And people wonder why the supposedly ubiquitous basic Troops choices of nearly every army are fielded in minimal amounts for have gone by the wayside.

Anyways... Copies of HQs, Tyrants or otherwise, is pretty lame unless one is playing a massive game.

Greyhound
15-06-2015, 06:39
one of them is the original Tyrant, the other one is the clone copy the hive mind has created, and controls simultaneously. If one of them die, the hive mind will transfer the thoughts and psyche back into the other body.

it's really cool stuff.

Losing Command
15-06-2015, 06:50
I'd say 2-3 Hive Tyrants can still be within fluff limits, but anything beyond that is pushing it outside of apocalypse. Tyranids do things by the number, so more than one Tyrant being present seems plausible.
What bothered me was how every chapter and army suddenly had an Chaptermaster with thunderhammer and shield eternal, including those painted as exsisting chapters of which there are chapter master special characters. But then again marine armies are known for their ability to switch what chapter they actually are depending on the competitive scene :p

GrandmasterWang
15-06-2015, 07:21
I don't have a problem with multiple tyrants in games. I just see it as the Hive Mind adapting and trying now things.

Better linking Tyranids to their background is something I wish GW would do (thanks Baal etc) but hive tyrants probably wouldn't make my top 10 things to change.

Number 1... I'd start with Shadow in the Warp. Per the background this is a huge factor when facing Tyranids. .. in game. .. pretty much an opponent can say "meh" to it.

Number 2- Scything talons/melee weapons should do more. I still see Nids as a CC army per the background. Screamer Killer build Carnifexen (ie pure melee) should have certain strengths vs dakka builds. Ie... a twin Devourer Carnifex should be a much less fearsome CC opponent than a Carnifex toting 4 freaking MEGA TALONS of DOOM!

Etc etc.

I agree with you tyrants (all with wings somehow ;) ) are too common... this is more of a problem with Tyranids in general than the Tyrants though.

Imo a Maleceptor should make Tigerus or Ahriman pause and be a worthy psychic threat to any other race.

I personally feel my Warhammer Fantasy nids (8th Chillhammer ftw) do a better job of fitting the background as a menace than the GW 40k nids do.

I can't hate GW for their nid treatment though when the new models have been so incredible!
Came out of the blue and what a pleasant surprise!

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hazmiter
15-06-2015, 16:03
They did have a MEGA SCYTHING TALONS OF DOOM, fex, one that was a pain to deal with.... It was used in 4th edition a fair bit.
Morphs were: +1str, T, W, armour save as the base, then what ever else you wanted, blade tail etc. tbh the carnifex needs to go back to super slice and crush.

WarsmithGarathor94
16-06-2015, 17:55
@grandmasterWang
Hell no should shadows in the warp get better unless your giving to give daemons a rule that when non chaos marine chaos daemon craft world elder or grey knights psykers attempt to manifest a power vs a army where chaos daemons are the primary they perils on any double.
2) no tyranid psyker should be close to the level of ahriman he's tzeench's most favored after magnus and fluff wise is supposed to be close to magnus in power level

Bonzai
16-06-2015, 23:26
Just playing devil's advocate here, but....

5 Flyrants can be perfectly fluffy. The Hive Mind adapts to any situation. In a world where Knights are stomping around, D Slinging Eldar are like blades of grass, and centurions teleport around continuously, why wouldn't the swarm take to the sky's? :P

itcamefromthedeep
17-06-2015, 02:37
Ahriman should probably be one of those Mastery Level 4 Psykers.

There's a case for Tyrants starting at ML1 and having the option to upgrade to 2 or start at ML2 and upgrade to 3. Swarmy could justify a 3.

Zoeys are in a strange place because their really big brain suggests that they could sit at ML3, but throwing MLs around like candy feels wrong.

GrandmasterWang
17-06-2015, 03:59
@grandmasterWang
Hell no should shadows in the warp get better unless your giving to give daemons a rule that when non chaos marine chaos daemon craft world elder or grey knights psykers attempt to manifest a power vs a army where chaos daemons are the primary they perils on any double.
2) no tyranid psyker should be close to the level of ahriman he's tzeench's most favored after magnus and fluff wise is supposed to be close to magnus in power level

Im all for your first point where daemon summoning should be harder vs a Daemon army/more dangerous. Just like SITW being improved that also makes background sense

As for point 2 read what I said again, I never said they should match Ahriman just be more of a threat to someone like that. Replace Ahriman with generic Space Marine Librarian I guess to make my point clearer. In game Ahriman isn't a much better psyker than a generic Marine Librarian anyway (which he should be). A Maleceptor is a creature pretty much designed purely to harness warp energy.

Also I am a big Thousand Sons fan. Nothing I have ever read puts Ahriman close to Magnus power level. Ahriman is exceptional for Marine but he is just that. In the novel "A Thousand Sons" there is a massive power gulf between Magnus and Ahriman.

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GrandmasterWang
17-06-2015, 04:04
Ahriman should probably be one of those Mastery Level 4 Psykers.

There's a case for Tyrants starting at ML1 and having the option to upgrade to 2 or start at ML2 and upgrade to 3. Swarmy could justify a 3.

Zoeys are in a strange place because their really big brain suggests that they could sit at ML3, but throwing MLs around like candy feels wrong.

Definitely agree on Ahriman mastery level. His current rules are a joke for him!

I specifically mentioned the Maleceptor which per the fluff is the most powerful (non apocalypse) psyker they have. Maleceptor has a brain size probably 3 times that of a Zoan/Zoey, imo ML3 for them is very fitting. ML currently for Zoans is fine, I like that they can run in a crew also to harness together.



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hazmiter
17-06-2015, 07:43
Definitely agree on Ahriman mastery level. His current rules are a joke for him!

I specifically mentioned the Maleceptor which per the fluff is the most powerful (non apocalypse) psyker they have. Maleceptor has a brain size probably 3 times that of a Zoan/Zoey, imo ML3 for them is very fitting. ML currently for Zoans is fine, I like that they can run in a crew also to harness together.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Have it sitting at ML3 but gain access to 3+d3 powers? To show it is able to harness/ utilise that type of power? Or generates a Pd everytime it gets a power off?

thanoson
18-06-2015, 21:46
Just playing devil's advocate here, but....

5 Flyrants can be perfectly fluffy. The Hive Mind adapts to any situation. In a world where Knights are stomping around, D Slinging Eldar are like blades of grass, and centurions teleport around continuously, why wouldn't the swarm take to the sky's? :P

No, A hive tyrant takes to the sky to adapt. All 5 of them? Nope. Knights? They would swarm it with carnies or some of the gargantuan creatures.

thanoson
18-06-2015, 21:48
Double post

shabbadoo
19-06-2015, 11:46
They should be swarming it with anything, in particular swarms of smaller models. Quantity should have a quality all of it own, in all cases, but it doesn't in the rules in this particular case.

Imperial Knight: "Can't...move! Have...twenty tons...of...gribblies...hanging all....over....me! They're..getting though...the armored...cabling...on the..power couplers. Weapon arms...non...respon...sive! Cockpit integrity...failing!"

215507

One piranha attacks a cow crossing a river, and the cow gets to the other side with a few chunks missing. A hundred piranha attack a cow as it crosses the river, and it isn't getting to the other side at all.

Sureshot05
19-06-2015, 14:23
An rule for overwhelming hordes on vehicles would be something I think which would address the ind swarm issue. The literature gives the impression of hundreds of gaunts overwhelming the defenders, but there is nothing 400 gaunts can do to tanks. Trouble is such a rule would immediately reduce the use of the larger monsters. Rule don't equal fluff has been a guiding principle for 40k for ages. After all, we all miss movie marines. :)

itcamefromthedeep
19-06-2015, 14:39
Moving everything to the Toughness/Wounds/Armor paradigm would do a lot to make swarms work. Big things should degrade as they take damage, the way units of infantry do, and that would also go a long way. Some judicious revisions to the SvT chart are also called for (a Talos doesn't look like it should be outright immune to small arms, and to be honest neither does an Imperial Knight).

Removing some of these immunities would be a hit to the relative power of big models, but not *that* big a hit, as people rarely rely on light infantry to kill things anyway so you'd go from a situation where just about everything can hurt your Knight to a situation where absolutely everything can hurt it (even if it's just a snowball's chance in Hell). It's not as if the proplrtion of someone's army that can hurt a Knight will skyrocket or anything, unless that army is a joke right now.

hazmiter
19-06-2015, 14:43
Not really. The larger creatures would still have a place in the game.
A fluffy example would be (in a scenario).
100 hormagaunts swarm a knight titan, for every 20 gaunts, roll a d6, on a 6+(Or something feasable), the knight titan loses 1 point of armour on its primary facing (front armour).
This would represent the swarm working at bringing down a titan.
The carnifex is now what the knight doesnt want near it, however, due to the hormas, its movement is now restricted (-1" per 15 gaunts attacking it).
Something along those lines would make the monsters usable and the swarmers have a new purpose in their short (but highly awesome) lives.

squeekenator
21-06-2015, 20:19
No, A hive tyrant takes to the sky to adapt. All 5 of them? Nope. Knights? They would swarm it with carnies or some of the gargantuan creatures.

No, they'd swarm it with whatever is most effective against it. If that happens to be flying hive tyrants, that's what gets spawned. That kind of adaptation is the whole point of the tyranids.

Kburn
22-06-2015, 02:44
As much as I detest flyrant, I try not to rant against them, because they're the only weapon we have left. Either way, cruddace will nerf the wings by making them 60pts, changing it from a FMC to letting it move 12" like jump, or more likely, both.

People detest flyrants not realising its the only thing we can use to win. The rest of the codex is littered with subpar choices. I facepalm everytime I see eldar players complaning about banshees (even the new ones...), or how weak assault marines are, because no one knows the pain of getting your stealers into CC (frequency of 1 in 10 games), and then seeing them get beaten in CC. People think its tacticool and fluffy to scythe down warriors and other synapse creatures, to seeing your army fall apart, but for the nid player, you're just watching your army become literally unplayable, as everything reverts to instinctive behaviour.

I understand cruddace wants nids to be the killable NPCs, and that he hates them, but what he doesn't realise that is his heavy handed nerfs just drives players away, so there's no more NPCs for his eldars and necrons to wipe out.

At this moment, I'd be happy for just slight nerfs in the next codex, but what will happen is that wings will get changed to jump instead of FMC, tyrants will lose stats due to the amount of whinging from people who think we're not easy enough to table, everything will get a 25% increase in points, Venom cannons will revert back to AP-, we'll lose all anti vehicle options other than 400pt tyrannofexes, whose cannons will be nerfed to heavy 1, Str8, AP6, genestealers will lose rending and have a 6+ save, upgradable to 5+ for 15 pts. Somehow the pyrovore will double in points while becoming even more useless.

Call me cynical, but I'm sure GW will start the next round of "reasonable non-overpowered" codexes with tyranids, like they did in 5th and 6th. After all, if little timmy's eldars cannot table you by turn 3, the good guys don't win, and no one is having fun.

itcamefromthedeep
22-06-2015, 03:03
Kburn, I think you and I have some very different experiences with the army.

There are a lot of armies out there that have a lot of trouble with a wall of 2+ cover saves.

shabbadoo
22-06-2015, 03:55
Not really. The larger creatures would still have a place in the game.
A fluffy example would be (in a scenario).
100 hormagaunts swarm a knight titan, for every 20 gaunts, roll a d6, on a 6+(Or something feasable), the knight titan loses 1 point of armour on its primary facing (front armour).
This would represent the swarm working at bringing down a titan.
The carnifex is now what the knight doesnt want near it, however, due to the hormas, its movement is now restricted (-1" per 15 gaunts attacking it).
Something along those lines would make the monsters usable and the swarmers have a new purpose in their short (but highly awesome) lives.

Right. The big stuff still does it better and has its place, but the the little stuff in large enough numbers simply isn't utterly useless as they are now.


As much as I detest flyrant, I try not to rant against them, because they're the only weapon we have left. Either way, cruddace will nerf the wings by making them 60pts, changing it from a FMC to letting it move 12" like jump, or more likely, both.

People detest flyrants not realising its the only thing we can use to win.
You just laid out exactly why there needs to be a drastic change to things, and it may not be just a Tyranid thing but a Core Rules thing. For instance, two squads of IG with krak grenades should actually be able to do something to the Monolith/Land Raider they are swarming all over. There are enough units in the game made of WTF!!!-ium for it to matter, and this should be addressed in at least some sort of minor way in the rules.

Althenian Armourlost
22-06-2015, 12:57
Somehow the pyrovore will double in points while becoming even more useless.

Genius! That's exactly what Tyranids need! You should be the new head of game design at GW!

Snake Tortoise
22-06-2015, 14:23
As much as I detest flyrant, I try not to rant against them, because they're the only weapon we have left. Either way, cruddace will nerf the wings by making them 60pts, changing it from a FMC to letting it move 12" like jump, or more likely, both.

People detest flyrants not realising its the only thing we can use to win. The rest of the codex is littered with subpar choices. I facepalm everytime I see eldar players complaning about banshees (even the new ones...), or how weak assault marines are, because no one knows the pain of getting your stealers into CC (frequency of 1 in 10 games), and then seeing them get beaten in CC. People think its tacticool and fluffy to scythe down warriors and other synapse creatures, to seeing your army fall apart, but for the nid player, you're just watching your army become literally unplayable, as everything reverts to instinctive behaviour.

I understand cruddace wants nids to be the killable NPCs, and that he hates them, but what he doesn't realise that is his heavy handed nerfs just drives players away, so there's no more NPCs for his eldars and necrons to wipe out.

At this moment, I'd be happy for just slight nerfs in the next codex, but what will happen is that wings will get changed to jump instead of FMC, tyrants will lose stats due to the amount of whinging from people who think we're not easy enough to table, everything will get a 25% increase in points, Venom cannons will revert back to AP-, we'll lose all anti vehicle options other than 400pt tyrannofexes, whose cannons will be nerfed to heavy 1, Str8, AP6, genestealers will lose rending and have a 6+ save, upgradable to 5+ for 15 pts. Somehow the pyrovore will double in points while becoming even more useless.

Call me cynical, but I'm sure GW will start the next round of "reasonable non-overpowered" codexes with tyranids, like they did in 5th and 6th. After all, if little timmy's eldars cannot table you by turn 3, the good guys don't win, and no one is having fun.

Probably :p

I shouldn't laugh because I've got a big tyranid army I built in 6th ed that's just gathering dust now while I work on a more viable project. Never even got to use it before the new codex, then 7th edition then 7th ed codexes made it about 50% as effective as it was a few months previously. Whenever I'm temped to bite the bullet and update my army (i.e. spend more money on nids) they go ahead and do something that reminds me it isn't worth it- like making the wraithknight all but immune to poison with a FNP save to boot. No thanks. I'm hoping tyranids get a drop in sales until GW take a look at the codex and maybe even play a game with nids to find out what the reality is for them

I can't see much point wishlisting for the next cruddex when the previous one made dakka flyrants better and all other HQ choices worse. It truly is a lottery at this stage. Super trygons? Terrible termagants and gargoyles but great hormagaunts? Fantastic raveners but nerfed biovores and pyrovores? It would be foolish to even speculate

WarsmithGarathor94
22-06-2015, 17:47
They need to sort the fly rant out tbh. Either remove all non psychic ranged weapon options from it aside from relics or make those options all atleast double in price :p yes I'm better my princes can't get much in the way of fire power unlike a fly rant. Also drop them to T5 and for the love of jeebus change the devourers statline

itcamefromthedeep
22-06-2015, 22:44
Devourers need to change, but other than that the flyrant seems okay relative to its competition. It could stand to shave 30 points off the base price and add that to the wings upgrade because nobody wants to field walking Tyrants, but Devourers aside the flyrant price seems reasonable.

Kburn
23-06-2015, 00:43
Genius! That's exactly what Tyranids need! You should be the new head of game design at GW!

80pts

Pyrovore flamer: Choose either: Template, Str3, AP- or Template, Str1, AP5

Volatile: If there are tyranid units within 6" of the pyrovore when it loses its last wound, all tyranid units on the board take a str: D hit

Stupid: The controlling organism has a hard time controlling the pyrovore. At the start of the initiative phase, roll a D6. On a 2+, the pyrovore attacks the nearest friendly units with its flamer. The attack is resolved at Template, Str: D. Attack each friendly unit within range until there are no more friendly units.

Backburn: If the pyrovore attacks an enemy unit, roll a D6. On a 2+, friendly units suffer backburn. Every tyranid unit on the board suffers a str: D hit until there are no more friendly units on the board. The pyrovore then loses all wounds, and you have to give $100 to your opponent.

squeekenator
23-06-2015, 07:06
Devourers need to change, but other than that the flyrant seems okay relative to its competition. It could stand to shave 30 points off the base price and add that to the wings upgrade because nobody wants to field walking Tyrants, but Devourers aside the flyrant price seems reasonable.

I reckon it's the guns that need the price-rearrangement. Chop 40 points off the cost of carnifexes and hive tyrants, then bump their guns up by 20 points each. Either that or give their melee weapons stats that are worth a damn, because right now the guns are so blatantly better than any combination of choppy weapons that there's never going to be a reason to use the latter unless the price gap is enormous.

Snake Tortoise
23-06-2015, 08:15
Ideas about lowering the base cost of tyrants then bumping up the cost of wings and devourers was suggested by plenty of people before the current cruddex came out, but it was too sensible to make it into the codex. It's pretty clear the writer/writers didn't look online for ideas, and if they did they didn't believe the issues people were reporting and trying to fix- or didn't care.

itcamefromthedeep
23-06-2015, 14:48
I reckon it's the guns that need the price-rearrangement. Chop 40 points off the cost of carnifexes and hive tyrants, then bump their guns up by 20 points each. Either that or give their melee weapons stats that are worth a damn, because right now the guns are so blatantly better than any combination of choppy weapons that there's never going to be a reason to use the latter unless the price gap is enormous.We have a similar mind on this, with a quibble or two.

Twin Deathspitters haven't made sense on a Tyrant in a long time (ever). Some of the weapon options don't need a 20-point bump.

samzor
23-06-2015, 15:05
The answer for a long time Tyranid player. Just play 2nd edition.

Find a club that runs 2nd ed events, tournaments, player group with working knowledge of the rules.
That way you are going to get tyranids the way you remember them.

2nd ed plays just as fast as 7th ed now because they just added more random 'forging a narrative' rubbish on top of the already over abundant 'forging a narrative'. The set up time is longer, making armour saves longer, close combat is about the same, shooting takes longer and psychic phase is a joke compared to 2nd edition warp card system.

Usual power creep, re-rolls buckets of dice, FNP, twin linked, re roll saves...
All this stuff is re-rolling to hit/wound/save is just stretching the game mechanics to represent a particular probability band. The granularity of the game mechanics does not allow because GW's marketing focus group said their target market (children) would have trouble subtracting 1,2 or 3 from the roll of a D6. (to hit modifiers)

for example here is the thriving 2nd ed community in Australia:
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showforum=403

insectum7
23-06-2015, 16:11
Kburn, I think you and I have some very different experiences with the army.

There are a lot of armies out there that have a lot of trouble with a wall of 2+ cover saves.

Oh man, are you one of those guys? Those 2+ cover saves are the bane of my marines.

itcamefromthedeep
24-06-2015, 00:05
Oh man, are you one of those guys?It depends on the opponent. Some players get the Skyblight treatment, others face a wall of gaunts bubble-wrapping Flyrants in Tyrant Guard (it's still worth it to get the extra mobility even when tied to infantry) supported by Venomthropes and Hive Guard.

New players or players without a mean list get to play against my retro-nids, where I use minis that came out during 2e painted up in the winter scheme you see in the 3e BRB. Playing those minis has had me reconsidering venom cannons on Tyrants and Carnifexes. You'd be surprised by the variety of players who let you place a small blast such that it can hit two vehicles.

Kburn
24-06-2015, 00:09
I reckon it's the guns that need the price-rearrangement. Chop 40 points off the cost of carnifexes and hive tyrants, then bump their guns up by 20 points each. Either that or give their melee weapons stats that are worth a damn, because right now the guns are so blatantly better than any combination of choppy weapons that there's never going to be a reason to use the latter unless the price gap is enormous.

Lowering fexes by 40 points is a good move, but not so for tyrants. You can field fexes in units, so can get 9 fexes pretty cheaply, but can only field 2 tyrants, not to mention the loss of synapse. Tyrants should be kept at the same point cost, but given 2+/4++ as a default. I won't even mind paying 30pts more for 2+/4++

This is all wishful thinking anyway. fexes and tyrants will be 4+, 40pts increase in the next cruddex. Every tyranid player knows this. Tyranids - Always the first in line for "rebalancing"


Oh man, are you one of those guys? Those 2+ cover saves are the bane of my marines.

Considering that any list that eldar players bring is stronger than that, I'd think pentatyrant lists are getting unnecessary flak. Either way, not to worry, rebalancing coming soon! You'll get to table the NPC faction once again.

hazmiter
25-06-2015, 17:17
Right. The big stuff still does it better and has its place, but the the little stuff in large enough numbers simply isn't utterly useless as they are now.
.

Well that was a hypothetical in scenario suggestion. Last post of page 2 if anyone is wondering.
The little guys have the hardest job in the book, and often dont get much of a role to play.
Hormagaunts could use the price decrease (especially after losing +1 Scything talons attack bonus), and theres nothing worse than a HOARD of aliens being outnumbered, and out gunned..... By adeptus militarum..... With T-shirts and flashlights......

Again. Find a way to buff the little guys up so they can work at weakening the big stuff, so the big gribblies can have lunch.

Kburn
26-06-2015, 00:13
Well that was a hypothetical in scenario suggestion. Last post of page 2 if anyone is wondering.
The little guys have the hardest job in the book, and often dont get much of a role to play.
Hormagaunts could use the price decrease (especially after losing +1 Scything talons attack bonus), and theres nothing worse than a HOARD of aliens being outnumbered, and out gunned..... By adeptus militarum..... With T-shirts and flashlights......

Again. Find a way to buff the little guys up so they can work at weakening the big stuff, so the big gribblies can have lunch.

players from other armies often complain you don't have enough little stuff for their scatbikes to mow down, but the little stuff is useless. If I had my way of balancing them, I'd say synapse gives them FNP, 3 attacks base, scytals gives +2 attack, fleshborers are assault 3, all for the same point cost. Its a big bump, but compared to scatbikes, still utterly useless, so I'd say its fair.

hazmiter
26-06-2015, 15:31
players from other armies often complain you don't have enough little stuff for their scatbikes to mow down, but the little stuff is useless. If I had my way of balancing them, I'd say synapse gives them FNP, 3 attacks base, scytals gives +2 attack, fleshborers are assault 3, all for the same point cost. Its a big bump, but compared to scatbikes, still utterly useless, so I'd say its fair.

You would find that buff would turn them into a slaughter machine.
Perhaps 6+fnp when in synapse range.
Scy tals give back the +1 per set.
And melee oriented models gain reroll to charge and rage for one turn when a synapse creature goes down while theyre under its bubble. (Call it last wishes of the creature).

itcamefromthedeep
26-06-2015, 20:18
I think that Phil Kelly's Tyranid Swarm should be able to play against an army of 5 Imperial Knights and still make for an interesting game. I have trouble seeing how any of the wishlisting above brings us closer to that.

The problems with Gaunts are still that too many things are immune to them and that they take too long to resolve. If you want to give them buffs, then give them things that let you handle them more quickly and things that let them affect a wider range of opponents and things that allow you to pay less attention to each individual model (in the context of a horde army at least).

Until these things happen, Tyranids will be all about the big models like Hive Tyrants, with a few Gaunts for utility. We should have a clear idea of what the barriers to the fun are.

hazmiter
27-06-2015, 11:25
Hormas have always been a favourite of mine, 4th edition was good for them, the down side was cost per model, they would jump in price pretty fast :p

GrandmasterWang
27-06-2015, 15:36
players from other armies often complain you don't have enough little stuff for their scatbikes to mow down, but the little stuff is useless. If I had my way of balancing them, I'd say synapse gives them FNP, 3 attacks base, scytals gives +2 attack, fleshborers are assault 3, all for the same point cost. Its a big bump, but compared to scatbikes, still utterly useless, so I'd say its fair.

That is just crazy!

Why compare the tyranid small critters to a broken unit like Scatbikes. Everyone with a clue knows Scatbikes are well OP and there is a reason they are so hated.

Over 50% of things in the whole damn game are useless when compared to the broken Scatbikes.

I want my Nids to be a fun to play army with a variety of playstyles.... not the next big cheese!

FNP, 3 attacks on a unit as cheap as Gaunts/gants is ridiculous! Also makes no lore sense at all imo. They are little plebs designed to die in droves... they feel pain absolutely. Take the changes you proposed then compare them to say an Ork slugga boy. Giving them Talons per your changes would mean one measly little alien pleb has MORE attacks than most Warlords. I want a buff for my Nids but can't back such craziness

Now the larger critters such as say a Haruspex getting FNP makes a lot more sense to me.

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hazmiter
27-06-2015, 16:44
That is just crazy!

Why compare the tyranid small critters to a broken unit like Scatbikes. Everyone with a clue knows Scatbikes are well OP and there is a reason they are so hated.

Over 50% of things in the whole damn game are useless when compared to the broken Scatbikes.

I want my Nids to be a fun to play army with a variety of playstyles.... not the next big cheese!

FNP, 3 attacks on a unit as cheap as Gaunts/gants is ridiculous! Also makes no lore sense at all imo. They are little plebs designed to die in droves... they feel pain absolutely. Take the changes you proposed then compare them to say an Ork slugga boy. Giving them Talons per your changes would mean one measly little alien pleb has MORE attacks than most Warlords. I want a buff for my Nids but can't back such craziness

Now the larger critters such as say a Haruspex getting FNP makes a lot more sense to me.

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They used to have eternal warrior when they were in synapse range......

thanoson
27-06-2015, 18:52
And they never needed Eternal warrior. Plus 1 to toughness would have solved all of that for warriors

MasterDecoy
28-06-2015, 07:32
Is be inclined to remove the Gant entry as a unit and add them as a unit upgrade to every other unit (copy and paste the rules and points though)

I.e a brood of carnifex's may take up to 30 gants at 4ppm.

Then they can still die in droves, and kill practically nothing, but they will be one of the most useful things in the codex.

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hazmiter
28-06-2015, 08:37
Auto bubble wrap carnies?

itcamefromthedeep
28-06-2015, 13:39
"Shoot the big ones" is a significant part of the background.

If the complaint of this thread is that the rules don't line up with the background, then being unable to shoot the big ones doesn't strike me as an improvement.

Dwarf Longbeard
28-06-2015, 15:19
The problem I've found with Tyranids now is that their so easy to kill, with the swarms there's so much which can shoot or beat them down and monstrous creatures seem so easy to kill now with the amount of high strength low AP or instant death weapons available.
The definite plus side for the army is that the models look great, but need a bit of a rework to get them to the level their made out to be in the background

One thing my gaming group did for a minor improvement was to use the valedor book for formations and use the 5th edition codex as a basis but use some parts from each book - scything talons rules from 5th edition and impaler cannon rules from 6th, it's not great but hopefully gives them a little boost till a better codex comes along

Ventus
29-06-2015, 02:22
Don't worry. I'm sure in the next nid dex most of the critters will go down in cost so that nid players can have more units of all types on the board to address the increase in firepower of opponents. That it means nid players will need to buy more and more nid models from GW is just a coincidence.

Dwarf Longbeard
29-06-2015, 10:15
Don't worry. I'm sure in the next nid dex most of the critters will go down in cost so that nid players can have more units of all types on the board to address the increase in firepower of opponents. That it means nid players will need to buy more and more nid models from GW is just a coincidence.

That would be quite the coincidence and unfortunately it's pretty easy to imagine them doing that; big problem is it's fine to bring a swarm of lots of the little one's but with something's like the new space marine vindicator squadron it's quite easy to make that swarm disappear now :(

itcamefromthedeep
29-06-2015, 11:12
Don't worry. I'm sure in the next nid dex most of the critters will go down in cost so that nid players can have more units of all types on the board to address the increase in firepower of opponents.
That's what people thought last time.

insectum7
30-06-2015, 05:36
It depends on the opponent. Some players get the Skyblight treatment, others face a wall of gaunts bubble-wrapping Flyrants in Tyrant Guard (it's still worth it to get the extra mobility even when tied to infantry) supported by Venomthropes and Hive Guard.

For clarity, did not mean to imply that you were some kind of WAAC guy, but a user of the 2+ cover save army which just happens to be the local army I haven't had a successful game against yet. It's hard to crack with my collection, esp if the FW-shrouding models are involved.


I think that Phil Kelly's Tyranid Swarm should be able to play against an army of 5 Imperial Knights and still make for an interesting game. I have trouble seeing how any of the wishlisting above brings us closer to that.


Agree wholeheartedly.

itcamefromthedeep
30-06-2015, 11:39
Malanthropes are outstanding. Stand one up beside, say, a Dark Shroud and you see how good Tyranids have it on that front.

Greyhound
05-07-2015, 23:50
Is be inclined to remove the Gant entry as a unit and add them as a unit upgrade to every other unit (copy and paste the rules and points though)

I.e a brood of carnifex's may take up to 30 gants at 4ppm.

Then they can still die in droves, and kill practically nothing, but they will be one of the most useful things in the codex.

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Love this. Please do it for ork boys and AM guards too!
Where my ork won't mind but you will though is the average toughness rule.

Inquisitor Shego
06-07-2015, 00:38
I'm now getting into nids myself, and starting my first 7th Edition army. My plan is something like this (roughly):

HQ
1 x Warrior Prime + Lash + Sword + Maisma Cannon
5 x Warriors + Deathspitter + Talons
Gribbly Drop Pod
1 x Deathleaper

ELITE
3 x Zoanthrope
3 x Zoanthrope

TROOP
3 x Warriors + Deathspitter + Talons
3 x Warriors + Deathspitter + Talons
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
10 x Genestealers + Broodlord (Deathstorm formation)

FAST
Harpy
Harpy

HEAVY
Trygon Prime

Probably going to die a lot, I know, but I'm building an army I like the look of and think will be fun to build. I just remember as a kid, seeing a carnifex on the table and thinking wow, that is scary. It's like you'd hear the musical sting for the Tank in Left 4 Dead. When the Fex was in town, your pants went brown. Now however, I don't feel fear, I feel like I should insult the player's tactical acumen for fielding such a silly option. I miss the days when they were apex predators

Kburn
07-07-2015, 11:13
That is just crazy!

Why compare the tyranid small critters to a broken unit like Scatbikes. Everyone with a clue knows Scatbikes are well OP and there is a reason they are so hated.

Over 50% of things in the whole damn game are useless when compared to the broken Scatbikes.

I want my Nids to be a fun to play army with a variety of playstyles.... not the next big cheese!

FNP, 3 attacks on a unit as cheap as Gaunts/gants is ridiculous! Also makes no lore sense at all imo. They are little plebs designed to die in droves... they feel pain absolutely. Take the changes you proposed then compare them to say an Ork slugga boy. Giving them Talons per your changes would mean one measly little alien pleb has MORE attacks than most Warlords. I want a buff for my Nids but can't back such craziness

Now the larger critters such as say a Haruspex getting FNP makes a lot more sense to me.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

eh, I'd say its pretty underpowered. bolters will still scythe them down. it just means gaunts cannot touch your lines, or you'll die a terrible death, so shoot the big ones and pray the gaunts don't touch you. it'll at least give eldar players a mild challenge so they don't get too bored with winning.

For them to be merely average, they need to have rending. Overpowered would be sypnapse giving +1T, +1W, and even then, they'd be as easy as pie for scatbikes to kill

hazmiter
07-07-2015, 14:53
The little stuff has always been easy to kill.
4th edition allowed the extended carapace upgrade, 4+ on genestealers was quite good, same as warriors.
Gaunts got to have a 5+ but :p bolters.
The easiest option is reduce cost, extra attack, beasts, fleet (ability to charge after fleet), and of course fnp 6+ in synapse. 6-7 points.
And then watch ork players and guard players get on the band wagon of wanting better rules for thier fodder.

Gingerwerewolf
07-07-2015, 14:59
Is be inclined to remove the Gant entry as a unit and add them as a unit upgrade to every other unit (copy and paste the rules and points though)

I.e a brood of carnifex's may take up to 30 gants at 4ppm.

Then they can still die in droves, and kill practically nothing, but they will be one of the most useful things in the codex.

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

So give the Carnifex brood and average toughness of 3? Ill say hell no to that!

mikesmight123
07-07-2015, 15:55
Nids should be more swarmy Imo

You dint really feel outnumbered when playing against them

hazmiter
07-07-2015, 17:46
Nids should be more swarmy Imo

You dint really feel outnumbered when playing against them

A foot guard army with a 2 basilisks, a leman russ, and a few sentinals for flavour will outnumber tyranids :wtf:
I had an excellent example of that ages back when i played a 2500pt game....... Outnumbering nids by an extra 30-40% is rather freaky.

Kburn
08-07-2015, 00:05
Nids should be more swarmy Imo

You dint really feel outnumbered when playing against them

If you want more swarms in nids, the gaunts need to be 3-4x better than what they are. Shoot the big ones is a moot point, since the little ones can be defeated by guardsmen and guardians in CC. If nid players could, they wouldn't take any gaunts. Currently, the only purpose they serve is a mobile shield.

Still do not understand why people cry out in terror when I propose the smallest buffs for gaunts...

itcamefromthedeep
08-07-2015, 00:36
Gaunts don't need to be better than Guardians in close combat. At least Storm Guardians should be head and shoulders better, because they're an Eldar dedicated close combat unit.

Make it as easy for them to kill a Warlord Titan in 40k as it is in Epic (very difficult, but not impossible if you throw enough bodies at it) and Gaunts will be fine.

The relationships between Gaunts and other kinds of troops are too stark. So long as fewer things are outright immune to them they could even stand to get more expensive.

Bonzai
08-07-2015, 18:51
Lol, up till Leviathan came out, Devil Guants were a staple in my army, and the real workhorses in my lists.