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NoobLord
15-06-2015, 21:32
TRADING UPDATE ON CLOSE OF FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31 MAY 2015


Following the close of its 2014/15 financial year Games Workshop provides the following trading highlights:

We expect the Group's profit for the year to 31 May 2015 to be broadly in line with market expectations.

Over the year we have seen modest sales growth, at constant currency, in our core trade and mail order channels. We saw a small decline in our own stores due to continued difficult trading in Continental Europe following our restructuring last year. We saw expected declines in some non-core activities that are grouped with core activities in our reporting. The effect of these non-core activities and the continuing effects of unfavourable exchange rates mean that our reported sales are likely to show small declines in retail (c.5%) and trade (c.3%). Mail order growth was c.5%.

We will provide full and detailed information, including the effects of adverse exchange rates, at the time of our results announcement on 28 July 2015.



Source: London Stock Exchange

So, blaming exchange rates again.

In the past retail and trade together have been about 4 times as much as direct sales. So that sounds like (back of the envelope stuff here) a 2% drop in sales very roughly in core activities.

ObiWayneKenobi
16-06-2015, 00:34
Such a joke. Yet people will still defend GW and their practices to the very end.

shelfunit.
16-06-2015, 06:06
Considering all the "sell out" releases, Space Hulk re-re-re-release, etc, then this would be an absolute disaster. The 40k release last year failed, Space Hulk failed, End Times failed, Knights failed. All the dozens of DLC packed computer game licenses have failed. The only thing they have left is Space Marines and the total war thing. Looks like those two are the last throw of the dice.

williamsond
16-06-2015, 09:06
These make me smile every time I read them, the frantic " we are doing really well, well as well as expected any way... but we haven't made as much money or sold as much stuff as last time... its probably a currency thing honest that or the position of the planet making no one buy space marines" they released more than ever before and even jammed more knights into the period to boost the figures and the're still issuing pre report excuses, I'm not sure where they can go in the future.

It's quite telling that last week i walked into my local gaming store and there was about 15 copies of execution force on the shelf unsold, if they had just redone bloodbowl (or one of the other games people have been crying out for) instead of a poor excuse for a game to sell 4 minitures I doubt this would be the case. Lets face it I can't see the relaunch of warhamer breaking the bank.

Old School
16-06-2015, 09:49
Considering all the "sell out" releases, Space Hulk re-re-re-release, etc, then this would be an absolute disaster. The 40k release last year failed, Space Hulk failed, End Times failed, Knights failed. All the dozens of DLC packed computer game licenses have failed. The only thing they have left is Space Marines and the total war thing. Looks like those two are the last throw of the dice.

Do they include Forgeworld & Black Library in their results too? If so, these results are shocking. All the Limited Edition crap that's infested GW/FW/BL of late.

I could see them bundling entire GW armies, including all Forgeworld add-ons, plus ALL Black Library related novels, with the usual "BUY THREE ARMIES FOR THE PRICE OF THREE ARMIES" deals, all limited edition of course, just to keep their dwindling number of customers keeping them afloat.

shelfunit.
16-06-2015, 10:25
Do they include Forgeworld & Black Library in their results too? If so, these results are shocking. All the Limited Edition crap that's infested GW/FW/BL of late.

Indeed they do. Along with all licensing income from all sources. Every single bit of their income - White Dwarf, Warhammer Visions, "Games" Day, event tickets, Bugman's bar, and now, the new museum entrance fee.

tu33y
16-06-2015, 10:31
there has been a HUGE push over the last year or so, with a complete change in strategy. and yet still it falls... I suppose I AM a doomsayer for GW, but even I was sort of expecting a bit of a pick up this year, for no reason than there has been a lot of interesting (not always good, but interesting) stuff thrown at us. to do ALL of that, then still tread water.... maybe even make a slight stabilisation in the trend... that must be terrifying.

they have even given us The Army Every One Wants But We Never Did #2... ADmech. I very much doubt they sold as much as they hoped either. the only trump card left is The Army Every One Wants But We Never Did #1, being Sisters. but they seem stubborn like a donkey on them.

as ever I am keen to see how this all pans out

Maccwar
16-06-2015, 10:48
Considering all the "sell out" releases, Space Hulk re-re-re-release, etc, then this would be an absolute disaster.

This looks like an application of the Red Queen hypothesis - they are having to run as fast as they can just to stay more or less where they were. Without all the frantic LIMITED COLLECTORS EDITION stuff they would be much further back.

GW have been hoping that the rising tide of economic recovery would lift sales and profits but I think that the tabletop games market is very different now from where it was in 2008. A return to solid sales growth is far from guaranteed.

williamsond
16-06-2015, 10:51
looking at some of the financial analysis on the web (not the fan stuff the stuff from city folk) the bottom line last year was bad but they seem to have thought it would pick up this year too. A few articles seem to think they may have cut too close to the bone and out priced them selves but these were a miniority. It almost looks like GW may have painted them selves into a corner...

MiyamatoMusashi
16-06-2015, 11:00
Sounds like revenue has flatlined (0.5% up or down is neither here nor there) despite price rise after price rise - indicates yet more falling volume.

Just wonder if they've found any more costs to cut, as that's what will affect profits if revenue is basically constant. They'll run out of things to cut eventually.

Avian
16-06-2015, 11:18
Just wonder if they've found any more costs to cut, as that's what will affect profits if revenue is basically constant.
Model releases per codex seems to be going markedly down. Ex: Dark Angels release with one(!) new model. Plus artwork and fluff costs in the books are clearly cut.

MiyamatoMusashi
16-06-2015, 12:27
Model releases per codex seems to be going markedly down. Ex: Dark Angels release with one(!) new model.

Average that out with AdMech and it's probably about the same as before?

Inquisitor Shego
16-06-2015, 13:03
*plays Running to Stand Still by U2*

Maybe if they considered cutting prices or making the battalion box sets worthwhile again? Maybe if they didn't pee on australia

hobojebus
16-06-2015, 13:16
Well if they cared what their customers want they'd know how to mend fences, but they don't so as long as fanboys keep buying stuff at inflated prices they'll keep doing it.

EmperorNorton
16-06-2015, 13:43
I wonder what they mean by non-core activities.

shelfunit.
16-06-2015, 14:04
I wonder what they mean by non-core activities.

Everything other than 40k.

MiyamatoMusashi
16-06-2015, 14:08
Black Library, licensing, and events is what I took it to mean. Core activities being models, paints, and rules. Could be wrong.

williamsond
16-06-2015, 14:12
if nothing else the financial report should be a good laugh, the way they spin bad news into a positive light makes me giggle every time.

NoobLord
16-06-2015, 14:32
if nothing else the financial report should be a good laugh, the way they spin bad news into a positive light makes me giggle every time.

To be fair, most preambles to financial reports are full of the same old BS and cliches regardless of the company.

You'll never read something like 'our healthy revenue during this period was largely due to favourable exchange rate conditions' (or anything else outside their control).
Similarly a fund manager never quotes good luck as a reason for their fund's excess returns ;)

mikesmight123
16-06-2015, 14:42
These threads can be misleading, if I was a newcomer and stumbled along these kind if threads first I would think GW is the apocalypse and any day they will crumble. Granted in not a fanboy or a hater I think that people are always over reacting about these things.

NoobLord
16-06-2015, 15:01
These threads can be misleading, if I was a newcomer and stumbled along these kind if threads first I would think GW is the apocalypse and any day they will crumble. Granted in not a fanboy or a hater I think that people are always over reacting about these things.

Not the apocalypse yet, no. I subscribe to the view that GW has about 5 years left if they don't drastically turn things round and turning round in 4 years won't cut it - action has to be taken soon, not for the sake of people who play with their toys but for people who rely on the company to earn a living.

Vazalaar
16-06-2015, 15:08
Not the apocalypse yet, no. I subscribe to the view that GW has about 5 years left if they don't drastically turn things round and turning round in 4 years won't cut it - action has to be taken soon, not for the sake of people who play with their toys but for people who rely on the company to earn a living.

I agree, but it is impossible for GW to have the same marketshare as ten years ago. It doesn't matter how good their ruleset/miniatures are. There is to much competition to ever get to the same height.

Cost of entry is imo the biggest problem, we will see what Age of Sigmar will change about it.

shelfunit.
16-06-2015, 15:25
Cost of entry is imo the biggest problem, we will see what Age of Sigmar will change about it.

Judging by the flood of price increases recently, absolutely nothing.

lordreaven448
16-06-2015, 15:42
I agree, but it is impossible for GW to have the same marketshare as ten years ago. It doesn't matter how good their ruleset/miniatures are. There is to much competition to ever get to the same height.

Cost of entry is imo the biggest problem, we will see what Age of Sigmar will change about it.
My bet is Age of Sigmar dealing with the cost of entry is to simply reduce model counts, but increase model prices. I expect GW will try to do EVERYTHING BUT reduce prices and do marketing research. They won't reduce prices as they would have to admit they were wrong (They're too arrogant) and they are proud they don't do market research (arrogance is a common theme with them). Even more, if they wanted to change direction, keeping Age of Sigmar top secret until a month before release is definitely NOT the way to go. That would *Gasp* require them to talk to their customers!

TSR didn't change. Why would GW?

MiyamatoMusashi
16-06-2015, 16:48
These threads can be misleading, if I was a newcomer and stumbled along these kind if threads first I would think GW is the apocalypse and any day they will crumble. Granted in not a fanboy or a hater I think that people are always over reacting about these things.

Fortunately there aren't many newcomers nowadays, so the problem never really comes up.

Prices up, revenue constant, customer count down. People are leaving and not being replaced.

Angelwing
16-06-2015, 17:31
I'm just looking forward to the report preamble so I can learn new words. I wonder what gem will be included this year?

ColShaw
16-06-2015, 20:24
I'm just looking forward to the report preamble so I can learn new words. I wonder what gem will be included this year?

"Otiose" was the one I really liked from last year. Never seen that word anywhere else; I'm an English major with a vocabulary in the mid-30,000 range and I had no idea what it meant.

NoobLord
16-06-2015, 20:34
I asked Kirby if he got that one from a thesaurus but he said he never consulted any dinosaurs :D

Easy E
16-06-2015, 21:12
The slow, downward spin down the drain continues.

Kirby is putting all his hopes in some vulture coming in and buying the place out so he can cash out and live the good life. :)

Snake Tortoise
16-06-2015, 22:50
"Otiose" was the one I really liked from last year. Never seen that word anywhere else; I'm an English major with a vocabulary in the mid-30,000 range and I had no idea what it meant.

I've never seen that word either, but then my vocabulary probably doesn't extend far past the average number of words the typical English speaker uses in a day

hobojebus
17-06-2015, 00:10
The slow, downward spin down the drain continues.

Kirby is putting all his hopes in some vulture coming in and buying the place out so he can cash out and live the good life. :)

And until then he`ll keep paying himself the dividends instead of reinvesting in the companies futures, but I don't know who'd want GW unless it was to strip it down and sell the parts.

Kahadras
17-06-2015, 00:43
These threads can be misleading, if I was a newcomer and stumbled along these kind if threads first I would think GW is the apocalypse and any day they will crumble. Granted in not a fanboy or a hater I think that people are always over reacting about these things.

Well things are in danger of going south. GW has been throwing stuff out of the door left, right and center over the past couple of years. We've had End Times, a new edition of 40K, a 'new' limited edition Space Hulk and a brand new 40K army. This is on top of price hikes, cost cutting and an increasing focus on 'limited edition' stuff. The new Age of Sigmar and the new Space Marine codex are due to drop as well shortly as well so we are really looking at GW that's running at full tilt. So profits must be up right? Nope. IMO this isn't a good sign. How much more can GW cut? How much faster can they put stuff out? How prepared is even the most rabid fanboy to keep spending more and more money?

75hastings69
17-06-2015, 03:40
I agree, but it is impossible for GW to have the same marketshare as ten years ago. It doesn't matter how good their ruleset/miniatures are. There is to much competition to ever get to the same height.

Cost of entry is imo the biggest problem, we will see what Age of Sigmar will change about it.

The cost of entry and the fact there are several companies now who produce better games, better miniatures, with a better interaction with their cummunity/customer base and yet GW insist on the same failing strategy of upping prices and stick Limited Edition on crap that no-one really wants! Sad thing is they are proud that they don't know what the customer wants and have bragged that they do market research at all! Way to go (slow claps) I give GW 5 years in their current format, due sadly to their own stupidity.

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 03:48
I still believe the core issue is exposure. Regardless of them saying they are a collectables seller they are a game company. People buy a load of models to play games with other people. More and more GW isn't being played. The background in 40k is surviving, but that will only get you collectable sales.

They need army sales. But you don't get them without a GW gaming infrastructure. The traditional two are drying up and the other games to maintain visibility are no more.

Now this isn't to say they are dead, but can they continue at this scale with this annual return? If it goes down the types of fixes needed can't be done in the short term, which would be the window action is demanded in.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 03:57
On short term fixes anyone have any cheap quick ideas? Bloodbowl doesn't need rules development and has a decent online presence and the best tourney scene of any GW game (I believe the record is around a thousand people?).

What else could they roll out?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Avian
17-06-2015, 05:54
Cheap fixes don't fix anything, that's the problem. The one thing they've done recently that seems to have worked was the End Times series, and that was anything but cheap or quick.



Average that out with AdMech and it's probably about the same as before?

Nope, as AdMech got two codexes.

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 06:27
Regardless of them saying they are a collectables seller they are a game company.

I'd say they are more of a publisher - in the early 90's WD had a monthly circulation in the mid-60,000's. Even if they have stood still on that 25 years later, add in WVs and you're looking at 12-15% of their annual income generated by their weekly/monthly publications. Add in the Rule/Army/Source/Campaign books & black library, and you're looking at up to 50% of their entire revenue being generated by printed material.

babylonia
17-06-2015, 07:02
I'd say they are more of a publisher - in the early 90's WD had a monthly circulation in the mid-60,000's. Even if they have stood still on that 25 years later, add in WVs and you're looking at 12-15% of their annual income generated by their weekly/monthly publications. Add in the Rule/Army/Source/Campaign books & black library, and you're looking at up to 50% of their entire revenue being generated by printed material.

Those figures for White Dwarf in the early 1990s are when Warhammer was at it's peak. I don't think that many people currently buy the new GW magazines.

nosebiter
17-06-2015, 07:38
Considering all the "sell out" releases, Space Hulk re-re-re-release, etc, then this would be an absolute disaster. The 40k release last year failed, Space Hulk failed, End Times failed, Knights failed. All the dozens of DLC packed computer game licenses have failed. The only thing they have left is Space Marines and the total war thing. Looks like those two are the last throw of the dice.

End Times failed. Eh?

From all reports End Times has been a decent hit, getting warhammer players to dust off armies and get playing again.

nosebiter
17-06-2015, 07:39
On short term fixes anyone have any cheap quick ideas? Bloodbowl doesn't need rules development and has a decent online presence and the best tourney scene of any GW game (I believe the record is around a thousand people?).

What else could they roll out?


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Bit how many of them would buy the game again? Not alot i am thinking. If it was such an open and cut thing to print money off a Blood Bowl re release, I am sure they woukd have done it allready.

EmperorNorton
17-06-2015, 07:45
End Times failed. Eh?

From all reports End Times has been a decent hit, getting warhammer players to dust off armies and get playing again.

What reports?
I can only speak for my area, but here End Times has caused Warhammer players to put their armies away and not touch them in a year.

Avian
17-06-2015, 07:58
The retailers sales (ICV6 or something) report published a few months ago said that Warhammer Fantasy had a bit of a comeback with the End Times. As they are not affiliated with GW, they're presumably trustworthy.

However, GW sales overall slumped in that period, so presumably 40K did markedly worse.

MiyamatoMusashi
17-06-2015, 08:00
End Times failed. Eh?

From all reports End Times has been a decent hit, getting warhammer players to dust off armies and get playing again.

"All reports" meaning "in your gaming group"? In our gaming group, we've still got the one guy who was always begging for a game of 8th Ed, begging for a game of ET (though even he was :wtf: at the magic in Khaine). Everyone else, still not interested.

AFAIK there's been no actual hard data on how successful ET was. Some of the books sold out instantly (but how many did they print?), some didn't sell out at all (but again... how many did they print?). All we can really say with any surety at this point is that, aggregated with everything else, it's not increased their revenue by more than about 0.5%. If it had, say, doubled income from Fantasy (to pick an unlikely example - work with me), we'd expect GW to be crowing about revenue being up 8% (if we accept the Warhammer-is-8% figure banded around elsewhere). We don't know with surety how well End Times did, but if it had genuinely been a roaring success, wouldn't it show up enough in the financials for the financials to look good? Instead: broadly in line with expectations... 0.5%... adverse exchange rates... yadda yadda yadda. Or perhaps ET was a wild success and everything else they did this year was overwhelming failure - we can't be sure, but is there any reason to think so?

[edit] OK, so Avian ninja'd me with one possible reason to think that. Or maybe it's just that the "bit of a comeback" for WHFB was a very small "bit".

New Cult King
17-06-2015, 08:09
I was hoping against hope that the last few years had taught GW a lesson or two, and that they wouldn't go full-servitor with their prices. The AdMech release shocked me.

The rest of what happens now reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons, with Chief Wiggum saying "Dig up, stupid!"

Spiney Norman
17-06-2015, 08:51
What reports?
I can only speak for my area, but here End Times has caused Warhammer players to put their armies away and not touch them in a year.

Pretty much the same story here, in my group our reaction as the end times unfolded was something like this

Nagash: Wow this is awesome!
Glottkin: who is this guy? Oh well nice models
Khaine: wtf are you doing to my beloved warhammer background!
Thanquol: *deep suspicion as to where this is going*
Archaon: Ok I'm done

Once it became clear that the object of the end times was to kill off the game, most people lost all interest in warhammer fantasy altogether. Currently both GW core systems are dead on their feet at my local club, there are a few teenagers still playing 40k-cheesehammer and a few hoary old vets playing Horus Heresy, somewhat hilariously I've found more people willing to play me at LotR SBG than WFB over the last six months. The most played systems at my local club are warmahordes and Malifaux by a very long way.

nosebiter
17-06-2015, 08:53
What reports?
I can only speak for my area, but here End Times has caused Warhammer players to put their armies away and not touch them in a year.


Congratulations. Where i live 40k is dead and warhammer has had a huge comeback.

nosebiter
17-06-2015, 08:53
Pretty much the same story here, in my group our reaction as the end times unfolded was something like this

Nagash: Wow this is awesome!
Glottkin: who is this guy? Oh well nice models
Khaine: wtf are you doing to my beloved warhammer background!
Thanquol: *deep suspicion as to where this is going*
Archaon: Ok I'm done


Well if your group is as "glass half empty" as you seem to be regarding GW, then it is not that huge a surprise.

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 08:55
Those figures for White Dwarf in the early 1990s are when Warhammer was at it's peak. I don't think that many people currently buy the new GW magazines.

Warhammer back in the early 90's was a shadow of the size 40k is now. I agree that GWs magazines are not that well subscribed to, but are you really saying less people buy them now than did 25 years ago?

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 09:00
End Times failed. Eh?

According to the release by GW of their sales falling again, I'd say yes.


From all reports End Times has been a decent hit, getting warhammer players to dust off armies and get playing again.

The only report that counts is the one released by GW at the end of the year - and they have already stated that is not going to look very good.

Spiney Norman
17-06-2015, 09:00
Well if your group is as "glass half empty" as you seem to be regarding GW, then it is not that huge a surprise.

Hey, enough of that, they could have done an awesome end times event without completely destroying the setting, while I'm not overly optimistic about the Age of Sigmar game it's still fair to mourn the passing of warhammer proper, I've been playing that game for over 15 years, even if the AoS is wonderful I've still lost one of the most iconic games I've grown up with for no good reason other than the uncaring whim of a GW exec.

Besides, when Gw does something really well I am fullsome in my praise, Forgeworld's Horus Heresy game is imo the high point, not just of GWs product lines but of the wargaming hobby as a whole. Equally I think it's fair to be critical when they do something badly, and the demise of warhammer fantasy has been one of those things.

MiyamatoMusashi
17-06-2015, 09:21
I forgot where I was for a minute.

Disregard what I said, not alot of reason to keep discussing anything with the Angry Keyboard Anti Gw mob.

Maybe you can point at which part of what I just said was factually incorrect then.

It's very poor form to throw a hissy fit and start slinging around labels, just because someone provides supporting evidence for something that contradicts your prejudices. Sometimes it's OK to accept that you're wrong.

Simple question, based on facts and figures rather than being "anti GW". If ET (or anything else GW have done this year) has been a roaring success, how come their revenue is flat-lining on constantly rising prices? Take your time.

Sureshot05
17-06-2015, 10:54
5% decrease in sales? Prices rises? Its a little worrying that the decrease in player numbers continues and GW release rate has gone up. Think it is fair to say that core strategy is not working, nor being addressed. Look forward to the 28th July and a proper analysis.

tristessa
17-06-2015, 11:11
The main issue from my perspective is a badly run retail network (especially in the stores not in the immediate sphere of influence of head office). The local GW stores down this way shut on Sundays which is crazy. Stores = recruitment = more sales. Reduction in staffing and being open on days when new hobbyists will be passing the shop means that the whole business model starts to fail because enough new gamers aren't being pulled in. I'd fix it by restructuring the GW retail chain and opening up the gaming spaces again for gamers of all ages, making the stores less tatty and only letting staff members with decent copy writing skills write anything on the GW store social media account (deserves a thread in its own right).

That said, their failures mean that more of the pie is up for grabs for ambitions indies and that's a good thing. Indie shops aren't shackled to one range and thus will benefit from the ongoing diversification of the wargaming hobby. I like GW a lot, love the new WHW set up and the majority of their products but also have found a lot to love in other games of late.

I'm expecting a change in GW retail and product strategy soon for what that's worth.

tu33y
17-06-2015, 11:13
but there is no learning from the trend.

YES there is a downward trend over the last few years. FACT
YES there has been a huge push by GW which has stabilised the trend, possibly.
YES the company faces massive competition since 2010ish, a thing it has never really faced

what is the competition? smaller, more tactical games. skirmish games. But GW seem to have decided skirmish games are too limited in income or too fiddly for major release or what, I don't know. but the fact is the trend is for smaller games.

GW need to look at Kodak. the whole market spun in a new direction overnight, and they just missed the ball. two years ago there should have been a serious expansion into smaller, necromunda/mordheim type (not them literally, but type) games. I mean, how much better might Aeronautica been if they had pushed it more like x-wing has been? they have the IP, they have the talent. they just don't seem to want to use it.

lordreaven448
17-06-2015, 11:51
Why is GW waiting until July 28th to release the reports?

Avian
17-06-2015, 12:06
Because it takes a while to properly write them.

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 12:35
Because it takes a while to properly write them.

And figure out a random word to be this years "otiose", which is in itself otiose.

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 13:33
Bit how many of them would buy the game again? Not alot i am thinking. If it was such an open and cut thing to print money off a Blood Bowl re release, I am sure they woukd have done it allready.

They all buy new teams still. There are half a dozen small companies making blood bowl models. Being bought by players in addition to their current collections. Hell a plastic pitch would sell out.

You realise also we could have had this conversation 6 months before blood bowl was re-released? And both be saying the same things? :)

Besides they could even do their best to ruin the game and have 6 teams to fit with their current WFB approach - humans, orcs and goblins, chaos, undead, pro elves and undead (Jervis would probably pick necromantics instead) without having to spoil too many of the rules (Jervis would be unable to insert a few untested rules changes that seemed good at the time).

I can well imagine shelling out £100 happily for a plastic pitch and 6 teams. Though if they had any sense they would make it so the teams were available afterwards on the website. Throw in a NAF competition at HQ a month after release, month long store league, new team models only, and you would have all channels covered.

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 13:37
Because it takes a while to properly write them.

More time than a codex...

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 13:39
Warhammer back in the early 90's was a shadow of the size 40k is now. I agree that GWs magazines are not that well subscribed to, but are you really saying less people buy them now than did 25 years ago?

Less people buy white dwarf than its heyday. In part the same as most print media bar high value brands like the economist, in part because the value steadily decreased.

I think the circulation figures actually get published somewhere?

mrtn
17-06-2015, 14:48
what is the competition? smaller, more tactical games. skirmish games. But GW seem to have decided skirmish games are too limited in income or too fiddly for major release or what, I don't know. but the fact is the trend is for smaller games.

That's only part of the competition. The competition itself is diversifying and mutating in all directions at once. You also have competition from "big ranked up games that are cheaper". Hail Caesar, Kings of War, Black Powder and similar games get more and more plastic kits available, and that wouldn't happen if they didn't sell. You also have competition from games like Bolt Action and X-wing which have different characteristics.

GW seems to suffer the "death from a thousand cuts". It's not a thousand yet, but it sure feels like they're up in the hundreds.

TheFang
17-06-2015, 14:50
Less people buy white dwarf than its heyday.

Just going away from newsstand distribution to hobby shops implies a big loss of sales. WH Smiths used to have a full rack of White Dwarfs, twenty or so deep and keep refreshing the stock over the month. Now they have two Visions they don't sell. I know a lot of print media sales have dropped as people shift to the internet but GW's publications must be well ahead of the curve on the sales lost.

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 14:58
Less people buy white dwarf than its heyday.

But when was WDs heyday in terms of sales? I'd suggest it was a lot closer to when LotR was at its peak than in 1991 when GW was an order of magnitude smaller than now, back when the circulation was printed in the magazine.


I think the circulation figures actually get published somewhere?

You'd think so, but I haven't been able to find them anywhere.

Commissar Vaughn
17-06-2015, 15:31
But when was WDs heyday in terms of sales? I'd suggest it was a lot closer to when LotR was at its peak than in 1991 when GW was an order of magnitude smaller than now, back when the circulation was printed in the magazine.



You'd think so, but I haven't been able to find them anywhere.

Ive had a quick google and found some figures on TMP that suggested its Uk circulation was a little over 100k a year (back in 2012), which seams a trifle low - Railway Modeller by comparison sells 40k or so a month . Then again, My local whsmiths, and other newsagents all stock Railway modeller and its cousins, but dont stock Whitedwarf or any of the other Wargaming mags...

Edit- Id guess that 100k is just its uk highstreet sales- through GW itself it must sell, I dunno, at least that much again?

Importman
17-06-2015, 15:51
I am surprised they are only 5% down. Back a decade or so ago I would have happily put some money on a small volume of Geedubya share. By the looks of where GW is heading you will have to be a brave soul or some major fanboy if you are willing to put money backing them now.

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NoobLord
17-06-2015, 16:15
I am surprised they are only 5% down. Back a decade or so ago I would have happily put some money on a small volume of Geedubya share. By the looks of where GW is heading you will have to be a brave soul or some major fanboy if you are willing to put money backing them now.

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Well the share price is 38% down from the high nearly 2 years ago. That seems to represent things fairly well IMHO.

(The UK stock market as a whole has been very strong over this period).

Importman
17-06-2015, 16:31
Well the share price is 38% down from the high nearly 2 years ago. That seems to represent things fairly well IMHO.

(The UK stock market as a whole has been very strong over this period).

Down 38%! Honestly can they blame that on exchange rates too? Lol.

It would be difficult for GW to make a come back from this mess.

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stroller
17-06-2015, 16:44
What NoobLord said.

Also: While the trend appears to be down (retail -5%, trade -3%, mail order +5%), that's still a profit, in what are still difficult economic circumstances. I'm not sure how you can call the space hulk and other limited releases a failure, given that most of them sold out, though I do feel that some (most? all?) didn't need to be limited in the first place. There does seem to be a general decline, which is a concern. I believe this is primarily due to pricing - but there's 1070 pages on that elsewhere. However, I don't see GW going bust just yet.

Avian
17-06-2015, 16:59
It's not difficult economic circumstances for game companies. The industry as a whole has seen double digit growth many years in a row now.

shelfunit.
17-06-2015, 17:07
Ive had a quick google and found some figures on TMP that suggested its Uk circulation was a little over 100k a year (back in 2012), which seams a trifle low - Railway Modeller by comparison sells 40k or so a month . Then again, My local whsmiths, and other newsagents all stock Railway modeller and its cousins, but dont stock Whitedwarf or any of the other Wargaming mags...

Edit- Id guess that 100k is just its uk highstreet sales- through GW itself it must sell, I dunno, at least that much again?


200,000 copies world wide per month? Sounds possible for 2012. Simply not possible for it to translate to a weekly figure though.

Orrinocco
17-06-2015, 17:29
Why is GW waiting until July 28th to release the reports?

Because amazingly it takes a couple of weeks to do all the month end accounting processes, get properly audited and then more time to pull together the document? In my long experience as an accountant, GW are actually getting this report out quite quickly

The_Real_Chris
17-06-2015, 17:38
Ive had a quick google and found some figures on TMP that suggested its Uk circulation was a little over 100k a year (back in 2012), which seams a trifle low - Railway Modeller by comparison sells 40k or so a month . Then again, My local whsmiths, and other newsagents all stock Railway modeller and its cousins, but dont stock Whitedwarf or any of the other Wargaming mags...

Edit- Id guess that 100k is just its uk highstreet sales- through GW itself it must sell, I dunno, at least that much again?

If GW were selling that high that would make them a leading magazine name. They aren't. I believe in their heyday white dwarf publication was sixty odd thousand for the UK edition?

To get an idea of the market have a look at this and see what high sales and popularity really mean...
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/uk-magazines-lose-print-sales-average-63-cent-full-abc-breakdown-all-503-titles


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hobojebus
18-06-2015, 00:17
What NoobLord said.

Also: While the trend appears to be down (retail -5%, trade -3%, mail order +5%), that's still a profit, in what are still difficult economic circumstances. I'm not sure how you can call the space hulk and other limited releases a failure, given that most of them sold out, though I do feel that some (most? all?) didn't need to be limited in the first place. There does seem to be a general decline, which is a concern. I believe this is primarily due to pricing - but there's 1070 pages on that elsewhere. However, I don't see GW going bust just yet.

Sorry but you can look at x-wing to see that's plain wrong, spending goes up on luxury items during tough times as people need the emotional boost.

The market for games is doing well yet gw's share shrinks, it's not just high prices it's the terrible communication with their customers and the fact better games have risen up to highlight how terrible GW games are.

75hastings69
18-06-2015, 01:05
Just on the blood bowl comment earlier, already this last 3 months alone I have backed 4 (FOUR) full blood bowl teams, that's quite a bit of money GW could have had from me, that instead has gone to much smaller companies because they are catering to my needs, they see there is a market for BB still, quite a thriving community actually, GW continually pumping our slightly different space marines is getting old, it's now at the point where the local club anyone even mentions 40k or WFB let alone plays it. However take along Infinity, X-Wing, Blood Bowl, Guild Ball, Malifaux etc. and you'll get an opponent every night of the week!

GW have totally lost touch with what their customers want, not just right now, but over the period of the last 10 years or so, and the funniest thing is they are still proud they do no market research, and now have decided that they sell models to collectors rather than models for people to play THEIR games with, they are so far away from the actual niche market that they once dominated now and they just can't see it. I honestly think within 5 years the GW as we know it now will be a thing of the past.

williamsond
18-06-2015, 08:38
I think one of the big issues is that as people grow tired of GW and move to pastures new, the new guys coming in to the hobby just aren't there to replace them. Kids these days seem just as likely to be playing Malafaux or x wing or attack wing as and gw game.

This lack of new blood is effecting sales as seen in the annual reports, if your shop retail arm is selling less it could well be because they are getting less people in to the store ecosystem, this could be directly linked to the move to 1 man stores with funky opening hours. While obviously price is a major factor, also I think the loss of the gaming spaces and club nights is also significant in all this.

increased direct sales might seem great profit wise but it's not creating the comunity that a good local GW or indy retailer does and this comunity of gamers is what keeps people playing over the years.

tu33y
18-06-2015, 09:55
they have accidentally hit on a money maker with the 30k stuff, which for many really did rekindle their love for the hobby. which weirdly sort of goes against my theory that people want smaller games. However my perception of HH was that it was balanced, essentially because everyone had roughly the same hymn sheet as it was a civil war between marine legions. it was and is Golf-Club-Sellingly expensive, even by GW standards, but it seemed to hit the spot. but totally by accident.

newer versions of Aeronatica Imperialis, with even the same sculpts would maybe draw in the X wing crowd, and we play a 40k based racing game a staffer at GW HQ gave me that is simply amazing.

Montegue
18-06-2015, 10:10
I live in San Antonio, and our community is thriving for both 40K and Fantasy, although admittedly Fantasy is a much smaller community. But the reason the community is thriving is effort on the part of a couple of independent retailers who bust their humps to create and sustain their communities. One of those retailers opened up shop with that as his primary focus, and his policies in this regard have led to nothing but expansion of his local market share and a bustleing, full store.

I recently attended a fantasy tournament there - 3 games. nearly 20 players showed up, including a handful from almost 2 hours away.

The USA Grand Tournament scene for Warhammer Fantasy has never been stronger, with events selling out in some cases within 48 hours and long waiting lists for those who didn't click their links right away. And when you attend those fantasy events, you see scores of painted, themed armies, and scores of passionate people who play them, and who buy more armies to use at the next big game.

I wish I could go do a power point for Games Workshop and show them this community they don't believe exists. I wish I could show them what their market looks like, and most of all *the tiny amount of effort and investment* it takes to keep that fire burning. Right now, Games Workshop made the egotistical choice to blame the world for their failure to support their game and charge reasonable prices the market will bear. If Mantic can pay an artist and then mass produce miniatures at less than half the cost per miniature, GW can exercise it's market share muscle to produce their quality miniature at only a small amount over what Mantic charges and make their money on economy of scale.

It's like they are trying to sell clothing without actually once looking outside their window to see what people are wearing.

tu33y
18-06-2015, 10:18
genius post. nice to hear people are playing and enjoying stuff there too

Spiney Norman
18-06-2015, 10:43
they have accidentally hit on a money maker with the 30k stuff, which for many really did rekindle their love for the hobby. which weirdly sort of goes against my theory that people want smaller games. However my perception of HH was that it was balanced, essentially because everyone had roughly the same hymn sheet as it was a civil war between marine legions. it was and is Golf-Club-Sellingly expensive, even by GW standards, but it seemed to hit the spot. but totally by accident.

newer versions of Aeronatica Imperialis, with even the same sculpts would maybe draw in the X wing crowd, and we play a 40k based racing game a staffer at GW HQ gave me that is simply amazing.

This is my experience too, I got into the Heresy last Christmas and there is just something about it that has drawn me back into the hobby big time. It's a combination of the superior balance compared to the hatchet job the 40k design team are renowned for. I've discovered I don't actually mind paying a lot of money for really high quality models and a first rate game that follows an inspirational story, while I always feel a little ripped off by Citadel products because either the models are not quite up to scratch or the game is such a chore to play. Forking out such a lot of money for models has made me up my painting game as well, wouldn't want to do a bad job on those tactical marines when you are paying around £6-7 a model for them.

40k balance is in a bigger mess than its been for years and I confess to feeling slightly *betrayed*, by the canning of WFB so I find myself not really wanting to play either at present.

hobojebus
18-06-2015, 12:05
they have accidentally hit on a money maker with the 30k stuff, which for many really did rekindle their love for the hobby. which weirdly sort of goes against my theory that people want smaller games. However my perception of HH was that it was balanced, essentially because everyone had roughly the same hymn sheet as it was a civil war between marine legions. it was and is Golf-Club-Sellingly expensive, even by GW standards, but it seemed to hit the spot. but totally by accident.

newer versions of Aeronatica Imperialis, with even the same sculpts would maybe draw in the X wing crowd, and we play a 40k based racing game a staffer at GW HQ gave me that is simply amazing.

Aeronatica was a ripoff of crimson skies and not really a good one, you won't temp people who've left 40k back with it.

Herzlos
18-06-2015, 12:37
Is HH really a much bigger game than 40K in terms of model count and size?

I know it'll be more expensive because it's FW resins, but how does the game actually compare?

Emperor Karl Franz
18-06-2015, 15:00
At this point I'm really hoping it gets to a point where someone else can buy Games Workshop and put the company in more competent hands (not guaranteed, but at this point I can't imagine any management which would be worse than what they have right now). Ideally, I'd like to see Fantasy Flight Games or Privateer Press buy GW. Or maybe even Rick Priestly could get a group of investors together and buy it out, the way Jim Shooter collected a group of investors and very nearly purchased Marvel Comics. It would be amazing to see the GW IP's under the control of a company which cares about the rules, tries to give its customers good value for their dollar, and fully engages with their customer base and encourages things like the tournament scene and so on.

Poncho160
18-06-2015, 15:20
Is HH really a much bigger game than 40K in terms of model count and size?

I know it'll be more expensive because it's FW resins, but how does the game actually compare?

HH is a more balanced game, because a lot of the armies are the same and they use the same weapons.

Whilst that my sound a bit boring to people, I've often stated that 40k suffers from a huge unnecessary rules bloat. For example how many different weapon systems are there in 40k at the moment? Easily in the hundreds I’m thinking. In the big picture are there any real differences between a bolter, shoota, shrunken cannon, flesh borer or the various other infantry weapons? Same for the heavy weapons, do we really need different stats for a heavy bolter and a shuriken cannon? Aren’t they essentially the same weapon? I feel the game would be a lot better if there was just one or two stat lines for infantry weapons, and then have stat lines for different classes of weapons, which all the armies share, much like Infinity.

It also does away with all the non-imperial faction / army rules and all the different stats for all the hundreds of different troops. What it does have is essentially chapter tactics for each different Legion, which is two rules at most.

HH plays a lot smoother because it has fewer rules and is more enjoyable because of it.

1500 pt games with only 40 minis are also not uncommon, so the game can play a lot quicker as well.

Tyberos
18-06-2015, 16:24
The more prices go up, the more potential new customers get sticker shock and go to their local video game, or toy retailer instead. Since the new year all I've bought was two books and the Assassinorum boxed set, I've probably spent more on World of Tanks since January, or at least as much. Hell, I just spent £25 on some games on the Steam sales this past week. New Devastator/Assault squad set or Homeworld remastered, King of Fighters Collection, and Skull Girls? In my case it goes to show that other game systems aren't their only competition.

To be honest, I'm more interested in how much revenue (and likely profit) has dropped this year. I can see the drop in quality of their recent releases, escpecially their books, so they're obviously seeing where they can cut costs. I'm confident they're still making money, just less money. There's only so much people invested in the hobby are prepared to spend, and if you're not replenishing lost customers or peple who drop out for other reasons with new blood fast enough it isn't good. They could still make money, but would have to focus on web-store only sales to the die hard more-money-than-sense collectors. Meh, maybe that's what their backup plan is.

Emperor Karl Franz
18-06-2015, 17:17
It's a vicious cycle. People drop out because prices are too high. GW feels the pinch so raises prices on remaining customers to compensate for that loss. A certain segment of the player base can't keep up with the price increase and so drop out. GW raises prices on the remaining player base to compensate for the loss. And so on.

Herzlos
18-06-2015, 20:29
HH is a more balanced game, because a lot of the armies are the same and they use the same weapons.

Whilst that my sound a bit boring to people, I've often stated that 40k suffers from a huge unnecessary rules bloat. For example how many different weapon systems are there in 40k at the moment? Easily in the hundreds Iím thinking. In the big picture are there any real differences between a bolter, shoota, shrunken cannon, flesh borer or the various other infantry weapons? Same for the heavy weapons, do we really need different stats for a heavy bolter and a shuriken cannon? Arenít they essentially the same weapon? I feel the game would be a lot better if there was just one or two stat lines for infantry weapons, and then have stat lines for different classes of weapons, which all the armies share, much like Infinity.

It also does away with all the non-imperial faction / army rules and all the different stats for all the hundreds of different troops. What it does have is essentially chapter tactics for each different Legion, which is two rules at most.

HH plays a lot smoother because it has fewer rules and is more enjoyable because of it.

1500 pt games with only 40 minis are also not uncommon, so the game can play a lot quicker as well.

Thanks.

I like the way Bolt Action does it; it abstracts the weapon types to an extent, so you get rifle/smg/assault rifle, then light/medium/heavy anti-tank/howitzer and so on, so you can cover the weapons rules for everything in a single page table.

Autumn Leaves
18-06-2015, 21:55
I sense the touch of Tom Kirby in everything we are witnessing in the slow demise of a once truly great company.
Once upon a time in a galaxy very very near... GW listened to and appealed to it's wide customer base.
The White DWarf magazine was a good read with fine painting expose' and it was a hobbyist magazine.
Once upon a time GW made great games...
Now they are flogging a dead-isn horse with no investment into making the company head back toward what made it great.
These days it's functioning more like a petro-chemical company, and the world is wondering what the frack are they up to?
More of the same old re-hashed same old, no investment in what the people want... in what inquisitive young gaming minds deserve.
Kirby's path of rinse and rinse again until all the shekels are bled out of it will leave tabletop fantasy and sci-fi gaming without it's primary world leading force in recruiting young gamers to clubs and so the entire hobby will wither...

Spiney Norman
19-06-2015, 06:32
Is HH really a much bigger game than 40K in terms of model count and size?

I know it'll be more expensive because it's FW resins, but how does the game actually compare?

Well yes and no, HH is usually played at higher points level (2000pts is considered a small game and 2500-3000 is probably the norm), but that doesn't necessarily mean you have more models in your army, especially if you are paying 350pts for a spartan and 500pts for a primarch. Generally speaking squads cost more points than they do in 40k but dish out greater damage compared to their 40k equivalent. My 2000pt Marine legion force doesn't have a whole lot more models in it than a 40k list of around 1500pts for example.

The game is much more balanced, though it's fair to say that is mostly down to there only really being three armies at the moment: marine legions (which are mostly the same with a few different special rules to distinguish the different legions), solar Auxillia (sort of like elite imperial guard) and the mechanicum.

tu33y
19-06-2015, 07:19
stop talking about prices, as the thread will be closed. like every thread on here that is slightly interesting.

I know, and you know, GW trading figures are possibly linked to prices, but the mods don't.

ON TOPIC:

if the rumoured move of HH to a core game to replace the imminently un-personed LotR, do you think that might have a bit of a positive effect?

f2k
19-06-2015, 07:25
stop talking about prices, as the thread will be closed. like every thread on here that is slightly interesting.

I know, and you know, GW trading figures are possibly linked to prices, but the mods don't.

ON TOPIC:

if the rumoured move of HH to a core game to replace the imminently un-personed LotR, do you think that might have a bit of a positive effect?

I honestly don't think so. They've burned way too many bridges behind them.

Besides, what's going to hapen to Forge World then? 30K is pretty much the only stuff they're doing now, so I would imagine that they wouldn't be overly happy about big brother stealing their thunder.

Vazalaar
19-06-2015, 08:07
stop talking about prices, as the thread will be closed. like every thread on here that is slightly interesting.

I know, and you know, GW trading figures are possibly linked to prices, but the mods don't.

ON TOPIC:

if the rumoured move of HH to a core game to replace the imminently un-personed LotR, do you think that might have a bit of a positive effect?

Yes, it will make a difference, I certainly would buy plastic HH. It will atleast bring more money in than LotR currently is doing. ;). FW can still do enough with the Heresy even if GW is doing plastic HH. It is also possible that FW will be responsabele for HH replacing LotR. That FW is in control of the plastic HH line....

But will the difference be enough?

The next 6 - 12 months will be crucial for GW. The release of the Warhammer replacement and the release of the rumoured plastic HH will be released in that period. If that doesn't make difference...

Denny
19-06-2015, 08:55
Yes, it will make a difference . . . but will the difference be enough?

The next 6 - 12 months will be crucial for GW. The release of the Warhammer replacement and the release of the rumoured plastic HH will be released in that period. If that doesn't make difference...

Pretty much this. I'm sure plastic HH will do well, but I suspect this will mainly (though not exclusively) be with players who would previously either have bought 'normal' Marines or Forgeworld stuff. I therefore doubt there will be a massive increase in sales.

Age of Sigmar will be the make or break game IMO.

Spiney Norman
19-06-2015, 09:55
if the rumoured move of HH to a core game to replace the imminently un-personed LotR, do you think that might have a bit of a positive effect?

I guess it depends what you want from the game, if you want HH to become just a direct clone of 40k set in an earlier time period with all the associated rule imbalances and fluff written by the same bunch of trolls that routinely murder the 40k codexes in exchange for cheaper plastic models to play the game with then I guess you might see it as a good thing. It would certainly lose its 'prestige status' once the 40k studio trolls got their hands on it though.

Basically I think taking the HH into the citadel studio would just make it a direct competitor for 40k rather than appealing to a different demographic (which it currently does).

ehlijen
19-06-2015, 11:34
what is the competition? smaller, more tactical games. skirmish games. But GW seem to have decided skirmish games are too limited in income or too fiddly for major release or what, I don't know. but the fact is the trend is for smaller games.

GW need to look at Kodak. the whole market spun in a new direction overnight, and they just missed the ball. two years ago there should have been a serious expansion into smaller, necromunda/mordheim type (not them literally, but type) games. I mean, how much better might Aeronautica been if they had pushed it more like x-wing has been? they have the IP, they have the talent. they just don't seem to want to use it.

While I see things similar to you in most of these respects, there is something to be said for not doing the same thing as everyone else. One of the reasons there hasn't been a WoW-killer, for example, is that too many companies tried to get a slice of the exact same cake, meaning no one remembered to offer anything truly different to draw interest.
If they could just deliver good quality for money, being the single most well known battle game in the market while everyone else is going for the skirmish niche could put them in a good position.
Bolt Action seems popular enough, and that's more of a battle game than a skirmish game, after all.

NoobLord
19-06-2015, 11:42
For some strange reason they seem to want to become a niche boutique minis business in a niche market.

Is that market big enough to feed a £160m company? No.

Gorsameth
19-06-2015, 11:59
For some strange reason they seem to want to become a niche boutique minis business in a niche market.

Is that market big enough to feed a £160m company? No.
This is basicly Rick Priestly point he made earlier in the year Source (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/rick-priestley-talks-games-workshop.html)

GW could survive as a collectors business but it wont be able to do that in anywhere near the size it has currently and GW seems to believe they can do both at the same time.

tu33y
19-06-2015, 13:31
without the context of a game, or fluff, the appeal of the models as collectors pieces drops massively. they might even look silly... especially fantasy that is "sort of historical but messed up"

"whats that?"
"its a Leman Russ Demolisher mate, an imperial guard tank from my army, the 349th AF(R) from Clarybodis Prime, fighting on the planet Snakefish. its a desert which is why its all brown and dirty."
"whys it look all retro but future too?"
"cos the imperium is a mess, its forgetting all it knows. it has huge star ships with massive cannons, aimed by armies of chained slaves because no one knows how to fix the aiming motors"
"mint, tell me more"

or

"whats that?"
"its a space tank mate"
"whys it look all retro but future too?"
"dunno. cool tho, innit?"
"I guess.... wanna play x-box?"

Poncho160
19-06-2015, 14:53
I think GW would be missing a trick if they released a HH game or range of miniatures in plastic and didnt cover it in FW logos. A FW game as opposed to a GW game would probably sell a lot more than any GW game just becasue of the "prestige" factor.

Gorsameth
19-06-2015, 15:04
I think GW would be missing a trick if they released a HH game or range of miniatures in plastic and didnt cover it in FW logos. A FW game as opposed to a GW game would probably sell a lot more than any GW game just becasue of the "prestige" factor.
Would moving HH to the mainstream really make a large different in revenue tho? Your moving sales from FW to GW for the most part. You would be counting on Xeno's players buying new Marine armies to play for most of your increased income.

hobojebus
19-06-2015, 16:01
People still respect forgeworld though if you put their stuff out under GW's logo it'll get a backlash.

Poncho160
19-06-2015, 17:25
Would moving HH to the mainstream really make a large different in revenue tho? Your moving sales from FW to GW for the most part. You would be counting on Xeno's players buying new Marine armies to play for most of your increased income.

I think if they sold plastic HH marines it would bring in quite a bit of money. You would have the Marine players buying the box,Chaos playrs buying the box, HH players buying the box and most importantly, for GW, new non-marine players, who didnt want to pay FW prices, starting a new army.

Half the pull of FWs HH is that it is set in the HH. I think that would bring in people starting new armies by itself.

Of course that is just my uneducated opinion, haha :)

Herzlos
19-06-2015, 18:31
most importantly, for GW, new non-marine players, who didnt want to pay FW prices, starting a new army.

Assuming the new HH plastics will be cheaper than the FW resins by much. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to put up the FW prices to make the plastics look more reasonable. Bear in mind we're already in a world where some FW kits are cheaper than GW alternatives in the UK. FW's been cheaper in Japan/Aus for years already.

Vazalaar
19-06-2015, 18:33
Assuming the new HH plastics will be cheaper than the FW resins by much. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to put up the FW prices to make the plastics look more reasonable. Bear in mind we're already in a world where some FW kits are cheaper than GW alternatives in the UK. FW's been cheaper in Japan/Aus for years already.

It's not only the price, it's the material that is also really important.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-06-2015, 20:53
GW have totally lost touch with what their customers want, not just right now, but over the period of the last 10 years or so, and the funniest thing is they are still proud they do no market research, and now have decided that they sell models to collectors rather than models for people to play THEIR games with, they are so far away from the actual niche market that they once dominated now and they just can't see it. I honestly think within 5 years the GW as we know it now will be a thing of the past.

They havent totally lost touch with what their customers want, thats quite a big exaggeration.

hobojebus
20-06-2015, 09:39
They don't communicate on any meaningful level which is pretty much the definition of losing touch, and what's more they are proud they don't listen to you.

f2k
20-06-2015, 09:58
Indeed.

For a company to flat out state outright that they don't care about their customers opinion is quite stunning. And when the customers tried to communicate their dissatisfaction, they simply closed all their social channels.

Bloodknight
20-06-2015, 12:03
Warhammer back in the early 90's was a shadow of the size 40k is now. I agree that GWs magazines are not that well subscribed to, but are you really saying less people buy them now than did 25 years ago?

I followed the print runs of the German WD for a while, at around issue 25 (that was in 1997, I think) they had a print run of about 27000, that dropped year after year until they stopped printing that number at all.

bound for glory
20-06-2015, 14:52
Indeed.

For a company to flat out state outright that they don't care about their customers opinion is quite stunning. And when the customers tried to communicate their dissatisfaction, they simply closed all their social channels.

how is that working out for them?

f2k
20-06-2015, 15:03
Not very well, I'd say...

dangerboyjim
20-06-2015, 15:50
They havent totally lost touch with what their customers want, thats quite a big exaggeration.


I don't think it is.

So many recent releases are either far removed from what I want, or done in such a bad way, that I haven't seen a release that I've really enjoyed for ages.

They seem to be aiming for people that buy multiples of collectors pieces in the model range. Who does that?

And on the gaming side the rulebooks are massively over produced and the rules spread over multiple overlapping releases, downloads, WD articles. Who wants that?

And they deliberately nudged players away from fluffy armies with in built strengths and weaknesses, to a random collection of models. Who wants that?

Who wanted to see the Old World setting destroyed? Anyone?

The way they do a limited print run of the cards and all their boxed games so internet scalpers buy them all up. Does anyone want that?

Limited edition rules, only available by buying an expensive kit or formation, in their insane buy 20 for the price of 20 deals. Seriously.

Australia. Come on.

Limiting products to their store so they can charge their markup.

Even the clampack models being monopose, with barely any options if at all. Really?

Black Library moving from pulpy paperbacks, to pulpy, insanely overproduced, limited edition hardbacks. Come on.


Am I alone on this? None of the way GW does anything is what I want.


I love the games (40K) and the IP, but it's getting harder all the time. I can't wait for them to put up the for sale sign, so someone with some common sense sweeps in, replaces the current board and gets the company back to making games that I like, and products the way that I like them.


Oh look at me ranting away again...

f2k
20-06-2015, 15:55
You're certainly not alone. Then numbers speaks quite plainly on that - unit sales keep dropping as people leave the game for greener pastures.

Dryaktylus
20-06-2015, 16:46
I followed the print runs of the German WD for a while, at around issue 25 (that was in 1997, I think) they had a print run of about 27000, that dropped year after year until they stopped printing that number at all.

The runs varied for reasons I don't know, it wasn't a constant decline. Grabbed some random issues:

*24: 32,000
*40: 21,000
*88: 25,000
*106: 31,900
*137: 32,365

Inquisitor Kallus
20-06-2015, 16:56
/If they 'totally' lost touch then nobody would be buying anything new from them. They still are no matter what your opinion. That doesnt mean to say they are doing well or are indeed fulfilling a lot of people wants and needs.

Dangerboyjim: They probably dont care that much about what you want. Theyll never please everyone. A lot of changes have basically been to sell stuff. If the game stayed the same people would keep the same old army theyve had since the early 90s etc. I love a lot of their new models but the prices are redonkulous in most cases. Warhammer was dying off sales wise, they needed to change things up to sell new roduct. Apparently the old stuff is still usable. Theyve put a limit on the number of things you can buy in a single transaction for things like cards

Darnok
20-06-2015, 16:57
I wish they'd show the numbers split by countries, not regions only. Just curious how Germany ddid go for them the last year...

As for more anecdotal evidence: GW1 in Berlin seems to have had a big change in staff recently. By which I mean: axing almost all the previous folks, and replacing them with one or two new faces. At least that is what it looked like to me on my last two visits. And the store was empty both times apart from me and the single staffer both times.

Now that was only the biggest store in the German capital, can't mean an aweful lot, right? Right?! :shifty:

dangerboyjim
20-06-2015, 18:48
Dangerboyjim: They probably dont care that much about what you want. Theyll never please everyone. A lot of changes have basically been to sell stuff. If the game stayed the same people would keep the same old army theyve had since the early 90s etc. I love a lot of their new models but the prices are redonkulous in most cases. Warhammer was dying off sales wise, they needed to change things up to sell new roduct. Apparently the old stuff is still usable. Theyve put a limit on the number of things you can buy in a single transaction for things like cards

Oh absolutely, I don't think I'm even the typical gamer, but have any of these changes been popular?

And I don't agree that the only option with WHFB was to destroy the setting. What they needed to do was work out how to make it more attractive. A better game that scaled better, with maybe a skirmish mode, a dungeon crawler board game using the same miniatures, a Mordheim warband style campaign system to slot in that niche between RPG. Revisit the prices, get out of retail and support local gaming stores instead of trying to ignore them. There's loads of ways they could have made that game more attractive.

Obviously that's just my opinion, but really, anyone but those clowns in charge now would be looking at what they've done as the best option. Again, in my opinion.

The_Real_Chris
20-06-2015, 19:16
I think a lot of our opinions clearly go to the diversified game model. But it is very clear GW do not see that way. I doubt it will change in their current incarnation.


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hobojebus
21-06-2015, 10:51
People are funny animals you can treat them like crap and they'll keep coming back for more, the fan boys will keep right on buying no matter how often prices are raised or how they reduce model count while keeping the price static.

But the fan boys alone can't keep things afloat and there's no new blood coming in these days, my friend yesterday tried to tell me at £200 ad mech were now the cheapest way to get into the game, no parent is gonna think that is a reasonable entry point.

GW in the 90s had monopose marines that were cheap but helped you pad out an army you could spend pocket money on the game, they need to go back to that if they want to draw in New people but they've convinced themselves and the die hard fans they make the best models ever so the board will never go for making cheaper kits now.

Price cuts across the board would give an instant boost but prices have never gone down and the only sale I know of was when they discontinued a bunch of stuff like gorkamorka and sold the metals off cheap, any other company would see the cliff coming and try to steer away but GW doubled down on a losing strategy.

Wintermute
21-06-2015, 13:40
This has become a pricing thread, so I'm closing it.

Wintermute