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View Full Version : do you find nurgle chaos marine armies boring to face



WarsmithGarathor94
16-06-2015, 18:36
Hey guys now I've been running my nurgle list again for about 6 weeks and I'm getting mixed results from it. On one hand I'm finding it's a good list not too powerful but on the other hand it feels like it may be too boring for some people to face.

For example last weekend I faced reclomation legion and death bringer flight at 1850. I lost mainly down to me forgetting it's a objective game and having bad luck rolling to wound mainly and I found it wasn't too bad. To some extent it felt as if my army was to some extent just as tough as his.

But then a few weeks ago I was in a 3 way game my CSM vs daemon kin vs blood angels. Now while I won I found out last weekend that the blood angels player didn't enjoy facing my list and accused it of being cheese. So my question is do you guys find mono nurgle armies boring? And have you got any suggestions how I can make it more fun while remaining fluffy

mikesmight123
16-06-2015, 18:47
Omg reading this post made me laugh, mono nurgle marines or daemons, heck even marines cant be overly cheesy. The blood angels player was probably a sore looser and does not know how to deal with high toughness, generally slow units.



As a mono nurgle player myself I understand how it could be boring, but my opponents and I love the idea that if ur caught by the slow moving pile of organs ur dead. Any game is fun asking as ur lists are similar in strength, just ask ur player what he found boring and cheesy, and reply saying everything has its strengths and weaknesses. Um surprised that he does ur army cheesy and boring, daemon kin live assaulty armies to go against as it get rids of their one challenge, getting into combat.



Well there's my input.

WarsmithGarathor94
16-06-2015, 18:50
I do agree I did find it funny considering he brought a storm raven 10 death company cases or the damned and a tactical squad in a rhino and then got annoyed when I fire 2 plasma cannons and 4 plasma guns into the death company turn 1.

He's even said my demonic stuff which is my obits and my defiled unless I bring daemon allies which I rarely do is cheese

totgeboren
16-06-2015, 19:03
The only 'cheesy' thing you can do with the CSM codex that I can think of is probably to spam Heldrakes with baleflamers when you know your opponent if fielding a footslogger SM list.
Really, the codex is definitly at the bottom of the pecking order.

With that said, for a loooong time, the hallmark of a waac CSM list was Plague Marines as troops (though for a while in 5ed Berzerkers were popular too). As it is now, Plague Marines are probably 'the best' troop we have available (unless you skip troops by buying some cultists and keeping them in reserve).
The Mark of Nurgle is also 'the best' mark by a fair margin if you look at utility vs cost.

All of this can make 'Nurgle-themed' armies come across as simply being 'waac-but-hidden-behind-a-theme', kinda like Iyanden armies have become for Eldar. Show up with lots of yellow Scytheguards, a Knight and Guardians on jetbikes and you certainly have an Iyanden-themed army, but it will likely not be fun to face either, in many cases through no fault of the player of said army.

Even if the guy with the army plays the theme because that's what he enjoys, it can still lead to confirmation bias in the opponent. As soon as you do something 'gamey', your opponent will pick up on that, but when you play real nice they won't notice or remember, because your army has already set what sort of player your opponent thinks you are. When you do something that confirms your are a bad sport, they will notice, but not when you act the opposite.

So what you need to do if you play an army whose theme coincides with what is the most powerful options on the table, you need to be super-nice.
Not just acting nice like and being a good sport, you need to compensate for confirmation bias and really give your opponent lots of slack, like saying they can keep crocked dice if they are in his favour while telling him to reroll when they are not, if a unit is maaaaybe within assault distance, just let him assault and don't ask for a roll-off and so on.

This might cost you some games, but when your opponent identifies you as a good sport, you can start playing like normal, because then their confirmation bias will work in your (and your opponents) favour because he will still think you are fun to play against, even if you are not really a good or bad sport, just in between.

There is even a saying/quote about this phenomena.

“Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon.”

― Mark Twain

WarsmithGarathor94
16-06-2015, 19:42
I be honest the only things even close to a net list which I run is 2 X 5 plague marines in a rhino each and a unit of nurgle obits. Depending on if I'm running either of the supplements or the main codex I run as my he either typhus + a unmarked sorceror in a blob of cultists or nurgle kranon in a rhino or a nurgle Lord with sigil vets and the spine shiver blade if I'm running black legion. The only other unit I regularly include is a unit of raptors the rest of my army then goes between a small unit of cultists terminators a defiler and auto cannon havocs. I even run a warp smith every now and ten

Heck I don't even always run my hell brute in a formation

Grombrindal
17-06-2015, 00:11
If he thinks mono-nurgle is cheesy, he has never faced mono-slaanesh.

While MoN units are harder to shift, Noise Marines pack a punch with Sonics and are lethal in combat if you try and silence them that way. 2A each at I5, 3 on the charge, at str4 isn't to be sniffed at.

WarsmithGarathor94
17-06-2015, 06:47
If he thinks mono-nurgle is cheesy, he has never faced mono-slaanesh.

While MoN units are harder to shift, Noise Marines pack a punch with Sonics and are lethal in combat if you try and silence them that way. 2A each at I5, 3 on the charge, at str4 isn't to be sniffed at.

I've used noise marine spam before they make grey knights disappear.

Snake Tortoise
17-06-2015, 09:02
Claiming cheese against plague marines is ridiculous. Yes they're durable and a unit of five can have two special weapons, but those five plague marines only cost twenty points less than a unit of ten regular chaos marines who at that point can also have two specials (or special and heavy). In terms of durability if five plagues are difficult to destroy ten CSMs are going to be difficult too, and they are hardly an overpowered unit

Wesser
17-06-2015, 09:43
Claiming cheese against CSM is ridiculous

Mono-God armies are by their nature even less cheesy, but Nurgle is definitely the most powerful mono-god at least.

Even if you play 2000 pts. combined detachments where you do something like fielding 6x3 Obliterators or 6 Maulerfiends for instance.... it still struggles to be really cheese... especially since you're stuck with Cult Marines and Chaos Marines as troops.. (expensive troops with severely limited threat range).

Chaos do struggle from not having a lot of wacky wargear, and most of the more interesting units tends towards being utterly worthless... so I sup playing against Chaos can become a bit stale..

WarsmithGarathor94
17-06-2015, 10:18
Claiming cheese against CSM is ridiculous

Mono-God armies are by their nature even less cheesy, but Nurgle is definitely the most powerful mono-god at least.

Even if you play 2000 pts. combined detachments where you do something like fielding 6x3 Obliterators or 6 Maulerfiends for instance.... it still struggles to be really cheese... especially since you're stuck with Cult Marines and Chaos Marines as troops.. (expensive troops with severely limited threat range).

Chaos do struggle from not having a lot of wacky wargear, and most of the more interesting units tends towards being utterly worthless... so I sup playing against Chaos can become a bit stale..

I agree it annoys as I really want to use some possessed as funnily enough I like the models but the only way I see me using some Is to be a body guard to a nurgle sorceror with prophet of the voices

gwarsh41
18-06-2015, 14:56
I run nurgle daemons pretty often, sometimes I ally in some CSM for giggles. I have a nice little themed allied thing going on. The CSM portion is always a bit of the weaker link in my lists, but its always a good time. Things like that are only called cheese by people who are only satisfied if they table you, and expect to do so regularly.

WarsmithGarathor94
18-06-2015, 16:06
I run nurgle daemons pretty often, sometimes I ally in some CSM for giggles. I have a nice little themed allied thing going on. The CSM portion is always a bit of the weaker link in my lists, but its always a good time. Things like that are only called cheese by people who are only satisfied if they table you, and expect to do so regularly.

Good point tbh I might start running more black legion/word bearers style lists should stop some of the complaining at least

Dr.Clock
18-06-2015, 20:42
I've played vs a pretty hardcore Nurgle player for my entire gaming career. To me they've never been 'boring' - I get a kick out of figuring out how to remove those damnable Plaguemarines and Oblits from the table. It's challenging, but definitely good fun, and especially when I actually manage to do it.

My last punch-up with Chaos was suitably epic - I ran Eldar/Dark Eldar and a unit of Harlies and managed to turn back a pretty significant assault on the centre by dropping the Harlies in on a Raider with Succubus, who proceeded to destroy a bike unit and Daemon Prince, while my Reavers bounced right off a PM unit. An autarch made enough 4++ saves vs Typhus to survive 2 rounds - long enough for my Harlies to back track, taking out the remaining 4 PMs. The late game arrival of a unit of Beasts was able to finally smack Typhus down, winning me the game (+d3 VP + kill the warlord for total of 3 VP).

Battles vs. Nurgle are always close run things for me - their natural toughness generally means that you've got to put out ALOT of damage to make a significant dent, and they've got plenty of tricks up their sleeves that can ruin your plans... defensive grenades and plague knives in particular just make matters MORE complicated, but in a good, challenging way IMO.

All this aside, I am really just not super afraid of my friend's Nurgle any more - my tricksy eldar now have many tricks of their own... I keep trying to convince him that CSM + Daemons is the way forward, but he hasn't taken that particular plunge yet. I think a heavy troops Nurgle army based on 2xzombies, 2xPM and 2xPlaguebearers would be simply awesome, and bring a bit more scoring to his game through deepstriking.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

gitburna
18-06-2015, 21:40
Never found my opponents Nurgle army boring...it's fast, ridiculously tough and surprisingly shooty. He just runs them straight at me and its impossible to take them down in time what with the dreadnoughts and daemon princes to kill as well. He's not used them for a while, he found the love of an even tougher army, Necrons (which he uses in almost the same way) and Eldar (which he uses in almost the same way, except with added scatterlasers)

AngryAngel
19-06-2015, 07:19
The only 'cheesy' thing you can do with the CSM codex that I can think of is probably to spam Heldrakes with baleflamers when you know your opponent if fielding a footslogger SM list.
Really, the codex is definitly at the bottom of the pecking order.

With that said, for a loooong time, the hallmark of a waac CSM list was Plague Marines as troops (though for a while in 5ed Berzerkers were popular too). As it is now, Plague Marines are probably 'the best' troop we have available (unless you skip troops by buying some cultists and keeping them in reserve).
The Mark of Nurgle is also 'the best' mark by a fair margin if you look at utility vs cost.

All of this can make 'Nurgle-themed' armies come across as simply being 'waac-but-hidden-behind-a-theme', kinda like Iyanden armies have become for Eldar. Show up with lots of yellow Scytheguards, a Knight and Guardians on jetbikes and you certainly have an Iyanden-themed army, but it will likely not be fun to face either, in many cases through no fault of the player of said army.

Even if the guy with the army plays the theme because that's what he enjoys, it can still lead to confirmation bias in the opponent. As soon as you do something 'gamey', your opponent will pick up on that, but when you play real nice they won't notice or remember, because your army has already set what sort of player your opponent thinks you are. When you do something that confirms your are a bad sport, they will notice, but not when you act the opposite.

So what you need to do if you play an army whose theme coincides with what is the most powerful options on the table, you need to be super-nice.
Not just acting nice like and being a good sport, you need to compensate for confirmation bias and really give your opponent lots of slack, like saying they can keep crocked dice if they are in his favour while telling him to reroll when they are not, if a unit is maaaaybe within assault distance, just let him assault and don't ask for a roll-off and so on.

This might cost you some games, but when your opponent identifies you as a good sport, you can start playing like normal, because then their confirmation bias will work in your (and your opponents) favour because he will still think you are fun to play against, even if you are not really a good or bad sport, just in between.

There is even a saying/quote about this phenomena.

“Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon.”

― Mark Twain

I'm probably not PC enough to find the merit in that, but me, I judge each person anew and not let bias from army selection color my judgement of a players character. If you need to short yourself, just to try and coax someone into giving you, as a person, a chance because they let bias from your army selection pre judge you, I'd rather not interact with that individual anyways. So let the judging someone by an army of toy soldiers they enjoy begin.



Good point tbh I might start running more black legion/word bearers style lists should stop some of the complaining at least

I wouldn't worry about the claims of a cheesy army, everything is cheesy to someone. The Blood angels player was simply being a poor sport, plenty of those with that mindset in this hobby/game. Some people will just complain any time their plans fail and they get beaten, thats cheesy, your too lucky, you cheated, it goes on and on. Just agree with them your army of Nurgle is beyond defeat, and when they do win, congratulate them for defeating the perfect army.

hangnail
19-06-2015, 07:51
Sometimes it's about the dice too. Marine players fail their saves? They lose. They make their saves? They win. Having FNP as a back up exacerbates this issue... But just burn them with fire and hope.

WarsmithGarathor94
19-06-2015, 07:59
Well I shall see how he likes it when I run a khorne and nurgle list vs him

totgeboren
19-06-2015, 08:18
I'm probably not PC enough to find the merit in that, but me, I judge each person anew and not let bias from army selection color my judgement of a players character. If you need to short yourself, just to try and coax someone into giving you, as a person, a chance because they let bias from your army selection pre judge you, I'd rather not interact with that individual anyways. So let the judging someone by an army of toy soldiers they enjoy begin.

I brought it up because it's one possible solution. The other guy could simply be a poor sport too. But it does happen that people become a poor sport as a result of the army you brought. They see the army, come to the conclusion that you are a ****, and then confirmation bias sets in.

I noticed this in myself once at a tournament in 3ed. I was looking at the last game of the tournament, the winning table, and one of the guys had a (for 3ed) super-lame SW army. I also had confirmation bias against SW because they were even more broken in 2ed. So I started looking at the game and hoping the SW player lost, (because he obviously deserved it!) But as I was talking to people and listening to the players, I started to notice the SW seemed to be a pretty nice guy, especially when he started losing (still remember his Rhino with HQ being hit by an Ordnance blast and the opponent rolling a 6).
After a while it turned out the SW player was a much nicer opponent than his opponent, and I never forgot because it sort of came as a shock to me (can someone with a super-competitive army at the first table at a tournament really be a nice guy?!).

I can definitely admit I judge people by what sort of army they bring, though I really do try not to because there are so many other factors at play. What sort of previous gaming group was he in, what did he expect of you and your gaming group and so on?
Most people try to adapt to the same playstyle/competitiveness as their opponent, but for the first few games against someone new, it's easy to miss each other (which can lead to a less than optimal gaming experience).

AngryAngel
19-06-2015, 19:21
That is fair enough, I have armies I dislike, I hate necrons for example, hate them. I don't tend to judge the player playing them, unless they are really annoying or abrasive, but that can happen with any player using any army. One of the most annoying players I've ever met who plays the game played thousand sons, always belly aching how his sons pure force couldn't ever beat anyone, for as long as the game goes on and then for hours afterwards, so annoying. I think however people need to try and beat their inner bias when it comes to the game however. Why let our own hang ups, push outwards on others when we can fix it and judge the player, by how they actually are, not how we view their army.

I do appreciate your honesty on it however, and to be fair, because I don't have that bias I never thought of such ever happening to me, maybe it has and I just never noticed.

WarsmithGarathor94
19-06-2015, 19:47
I'm weird I enjoy facing crons and tau but hate facing ba lol I'd sooner face eldar than BA in fact