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Harwammer
17-06-2015, 12:07
So we're looking forward to 'Age of Sigmar: a Warhammer Strategy game'.

We're used to edition changes, so there is bound to be more after AoS. So, what warhammer strategy games will be coming out after Age of Sigmar?

Will they be jumping back to the very start of the time line when chaos first invaded and men were but a barbarian race?

Will the edition after AoS be pushing the timeline forward and showing us what happens after Sigmar's (second?) Age, telling us what happened to the incarnates so on.

So enough hysteria over Age of Sigmar. What games might come in it's wake?

Spiney Norman
17-06-2015, 14:18
I think you're misunderstanding this, Age of Sigmar is not a new edition of warhammer, it is a totally new game that comprehensively replaces warhammer, from the rumours we've seen the two are nothing alike, the turn order, even stat lines have totally changed. Even the attempt to bridge the two settings is wildly tenuous at best, and given what a cack-handed job they've done of the transition, I'm very nervous about reading the background.

Part of me hates what they've done, but part of me is deeply curious as to whether shooting the faithful old ox in the head and instead strapping a couple of huskies to the plough will work as well as they think.

Spider-pope
17-06-2015, 14:23
So we're looking forward to 'Age of Sigmar: a Warhammer Strategy game'.

We're used to edition changes, so there is bound to be more after AoS. So, what warhammer strategy games will be coming out after Age of Sigmar?

Will they be jumping back to the very start of the time line when chaos first invaded and men were but a barbarian race?

Doubtful. I'd imagine that for GW the old setting is done and dusted now. The Time of Legends books didn't take off the way that the Heresy novels did, so i would guess they see that as evidence that we don't want to go backwards.



Will the edition after AoS be pushing the timeline forward and showing us what happens after Sigmar's (second?) Age, telling us what happened to the incarnates so on.

Impossible to say. All we've had are rumours that may or may not be true, fluff snippets that seem to have been deliberately twisted by others in order to stir up arguments in the community. At this point we don't have anything concrete enough to speculate about the future.



So enough hysteria over Age of Sigmar. What games might come in it's wake?

Who knows. If GW continue to fail to address the real issues behind the decline in sales, namely expense and complete lack of marketing, i think it's premature to assume there will be any games in it's wake.

Laniston
17-06-2015, 16:13
My prediction is that Age of Sigmar won't sell very well because it'll be far too expensive. GW will interpret low sales to be due to low interest and support for Fantasy will wane for a year or so until it disappears. 40k will be their only game until that's gone. GW will become one of those kiosks in the mall selling overpriced clippers and glue where you avoid making eye contact with the salesperson as you walk past.

daftpunkevo
17-06-2015, 17:06
My prediction is that Age of Sigmar won't sell very well because it'll be far too expensive. GW will interpret low sales to be due to low interest and support for Fantasy will wane for a year or so until it disappears. 40k will be their only game until that's gone. GW will become one of those kiosks in the mall selling overpriced clippers and glue where you avoid making eye contact with the salesperson as you walk past.

This this this. If only i could make an alert to bump this thread in 5 years. It's the only ending for all this *****. People that play skirmish wargaming already play warmachine and those like me that just got ****ed will either switch company.
Or go the 40k route for those that played both system.

I'm personnaly done with gw and will come back in a few years to see the 54th recast of plastic marine for "only 150€ the squad" while 3d printing will be something everyone have acces to and pirated files or 3D rescult of those awfully complicated marines models..
I'm wotnessing the end of an economic model, didnt know i will be ****ed that soon tho

Just Tony
17-06-2015, 17:10
So we're looking forward to 'Age of Sigmar: a Warhammer Strategy game'.

Speak for yourself. Most people on here and that I know IRL are dreading what is going to happen. Once again, see my Ultraverse: Black September analogy.


We're used to edition changes, so there is bound to be more after AoS. So, what warhammer strategy games will be coming out after Age of Sigmar?

Cart in front of the horse. If it sells poorly, there won't BE a next edition and they'll hedge all bets on 40K, until they run that in the ground as well.


Will they be jumping back to the very start of the time line when chaos first invaded and men were but a barbarian race?

I can't see them going back unless there's some sort of time travel shenanigans to try to reset the End Times and put the status quo back to where it was. Which would be pulling a Storm of Chaos and **** off everyone who was happy with End Times.


Will the edition after AoS be pushing the timeline forward and showing us what happens after Sigmar's (second?) Age, telling us what happened to the incarnates so on?

See my cart/horse scenario.


So enough hysteria over Age of Sigmar. What games might come in it's wake?

Oldhammer from the sounds of it. Quite a few people are planning on sticking with 8th, and several other people (myself included) are going back to 6th-Hammer. IF AoS is successful, and that's a rather large IF, then people will be playing it and the bulk edition that comes with it. From everything I'm seeing on here and abroad, though, I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I were you.

Spiney Norman
17-06-2015, 17:16
Oldhammer from the sounds of it. Quite a few people are planning on sticking with 8th, and several other people (myself included) are going back to 6th-Hammer. IF AoS is successful, and that's a rather large IF, then people will be playing it and the bulk edition that comes with it. From everything I'm seeing on here and abroad, though, I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I were you.

That's all very well and good, but it is hard to sustain a community for a defunct game if it is no longer being supported by new releases, in general people are more likely to just leave the hobby if they don't like a new edition than keep on playing the old one,

Just Tony
17-06-2015, 17:24
True, but as long as you DO have a network of friends/family that are onboard and enjoy playing the game, you can sustain playable games. Hell, you then default back to where I was in early 7th, getting one of each army. Once the game is indeed dead, you snag up obsolete models on the cheap and build new armies. The more I think about it, the more I hope that AoS DOES torpedo Warhammer so I can realize that dream.

Furious
17-06-2015, 18:02
There's the "I'll just keep playing 8th" attitude that I will also be a part of, but to face the truth the game will only lose players - nobody is going to spend money (at least the amount of money it takes to play WFB) on an unsupported game. Not to mention the recent hemorrhaging of players due to the long silence about WFB's future.
I'm optimistically hoping there will be an eventual 9th in addition to AoS, but it's looking less and less likely. I'll still play 8th until I no longer have an place to do so.

Ramius4
17-06-2015, 18:19
True, but as long as you DO have a network of friends/family that are onboard and enjoy playing the game, you can sustain playable games.

This year marks my group's 22nd year of playing 2nd edition 40K, so yes it's very possible to sustain. We intend on sticking with 8th edition WFB as well.


but to face the truth the game will only lose players - nobody is going to spend money (at least the amount of money it takes to play WFB) on an unsupported game.

Two things:

If everyone drops the game, getting the things you need to play WFB on ebay will be REALLY cheap.

If you're fortunate enough to have a group like mine, it doesn't matter if the game is supported.

beanerboy
17-06-2015, 18:29
I know the two are different for many reasons but I can't help but be worried this will go like Lord of the rings strategy battle game...

With the films there was a big hype. It even got me into the hobby and I was an avid lotr player for years, then I took a break for a bit, and when I came back the game had changed. It was now the hobbit. The problem with the hobbit was that the models were prohibitively expensive. Even for an avid fan I couldn't justify the outlay in pounds for these new models. There was clearly next to no support for the hobbit game and it has faded.

If age of sigmar suffers from this price point it's going to be a tough sell.

Tupinamba
17-06-2015, 22:20
My prediction is that Age of Sigmar won't sell very well because it'll be far too expensive. GW will interpret low sales to be due to low interest and support for Fantasy will wane for a year or so until it disappears. 40k will be their only game until that's gone. GW will become one of those kiosks in the mall selling overpriced clippers and glue where you avoid making eye contact with the salesperson as you walk past.

LOL. I hadnīt laughed like that for a while. Itīs still mixed with tears for my beloved WHFB, but thanks.

Tyelacoirii
17-06-2015, 23:42
To focus on the "after" point - what I find odd is that there isn't a rumoured release schedule post AoS.

Some people really liked 6th Edition's ravening hordes and maybe on balance it was a balanced ruleset compared to things that came after. For my circle however the effects for WHFB were pretty dire. The fact none of us had army books killed our motivation to collect and meant we finally bought into 40k (which had previously been considered a bit suspect due to the changes made in 3rd over 2nd). The group's emphasis became 40k and while WHFB recovered as everyone's army books were released it never returned to the same level of dominance as before. I don't have any figures (its 15 years ago after all) but I reckon this is when 40k sales started to increase at the expense of Fantasy.

So if there isn't a rush of releases planned AoS probably will be dead on arrival. People will be too busy collecting, painting and playing 40k (or Warmahordes, Malifaux or whatever) instead as they have been for the many months since it was clear 8th edition was over.

SuperHappyTime
18-06-2015, 04:00
My prediction is that Age of Sigmar won't sell very well because it'll be far too expensive. GW will interpret low sales to be due to low interest and support for Fantasy will wane for a year or so until it disappears.

Isn't this the truth?

For $20, I guarantee you that even the worst of us doomsayers will pick up the AoS box. For a game we love (or maybe love to hate), we'll pick it up.

But, it's going to be $100. I am so certain of this that if it is less, I'll buy the box. If by some miracle the box is worth less than $50 (or less than $49.9X), I will buy $1000 worth of 8th/AoS-legal models, from GW directly. Hell, I'll even sig(mar?) this. So that if it does come to pass, you may laugh in my general direction.

Wesser
18-06-2015, 07:37
Doubtful. I'd imagine that for GW the old setting is done and dusted now. The Time of Legends books didn't take off the way that the Heresy novels did, so i would guess they see that as evidence that we don't want to go backwards.


Well it won't take much more than...

After several hours of troubled sleep the archmage Teclis finally jerked awake in a fit so violent that he knocked over the glass of fine Cothique wine on his nightstand. Drenched in sweat Teclis shook his head, "That's it. No more anchovy pizzas right before bedtime".

... and End Times and AoS is retconned out :)

Spiney Norman
18-06-2015, 09:00
Two things:

If everyone drops the game, getting the things you need to play WFB on ebay will be REALLY cheap.

If you're fortunate enough to have a group like mine, it doesn't matter if the game is supported.

In the short term that may be true, on the other hand if AoS is not great you might find a lot of people want to keep playing WFB and as the older models drop off GWs OLS the price of second hand models only goes up.

In any case both these points only work in the very short term, once you can no longer buy warhammer models second hand prices will rocket regardless (just look at the price of OOP LotR models on ebay now, and that is for a game "no-one played"). High model cost and no company support means no (or very few) new players for the game so every time someone from your group gets bored with the hobby or moves to a different city or leaves for whatever other reason that's one less person in your community that won't be replaced.

Some large, committed groups might keep WFB alive for 5 years or more, but it's now on the slow spiral to extinction everywhere.

GrandmasterWang
18-06-2015, 15:49
If the Total Warhammer games are popular I could definitely see Games Workshop doing another game set in the 'Old World'



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Spiney Norman
18-06-2015, 16:33
If the Total Warhammer games are popular I could definitely see Games Workshop doing another game set in the 'Old World'



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

That would be one of the most hilariously epic retcons ever, though I'm pretty sure reading why the old world wasn't destroyed in the end times after all would make my eyeballs bleed.

GrandmasterWang
18-06-2015, 16:53
That would be one of the most hilariously epic retcons ever, though I'm pretty sure reading why the old world wasn't destroyed in the end times after all would make my eyeballs bleed.

"Computer says NO"

Wait I mean

"Tzeentch says NO"



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sixfthoneybadger
18-06-2015, 16:56
What comes after AoS? GW rebranding everything 40K because there will be nothing remotely fantasy related. AoS will fail.

GW failing opens the door for a company with vision and MARKETING sense. Something will replace 8th. It just won't be GW.

Sothron
18-06-2015, 21:28
If the Total Warhammer games are popular I could definitely see Games Workshop doing another game set in the 'Old World'



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I usually hate retconning but this is something I am for. I want my Warhammer setting back with all the armies and factions.

scruffyryan
19-06-2015, 06:08
So enough hysteria over Age of Sigmar. What games might come in it's wake?

Warmahordes basically. Look its not merely the price point, or the lack of marketing, though those are both prime reasons they're having trouble with new players. It's completely the lack of attempting to implement a unified competitive system with balanced rules. They don't address their FAQ, they don't address rules questions, or hiccups in the edition rules with any regularity, and it completely kills any hope for a competitive play environment that isn't almost entirely focused on how pretty your army is and if you can resist the temptation to play power unit X that the company got you to spend 200+ dollars putting together.

Meanwhile privateer press has a rules forum where the rules team can check with the people who wrote the rules of the game regarding wonky interactions and intent, release faqs regularly, and have a robust tournament scene with multiple formats and prize support. Their release schedule ensures that everyone collecting a main faction gets something new every year, and everyone gets the rules for their new things all at once. This creates player loyalty, which is the cheapest and most important form of marketing you can do. They're also releasing a limited run of 35 point army boxes, full of good and useable models rather than the leftovers they didn't sell which are about the equivalent of a 1750-2k fantasy army depending on your areas preference for 130 bucks.

There is a Warmahordes tourney once or twice a month in my area. WFB has about 3 people arranging to meet to play then backing out day of because something came up. Most of the Warmahordes players were also fantasy players, who quit when GW took too long to address the balance issues with the format (power scroll shenanigans) and didn't feel content with paying that much money to a company to house rule a game into something they enjoyed. Warmahordes literally ate fantasy in my town, and is working on eating 40k too by virtue of being a large and active community.

The Marshel
19-06-2015, 07:01
I know the two are different for many reasons but I can't help but be worried this will go like Lord of the rings strategy battle game...

With the films there was a big hype. It even got me into the hobby and I was an avid lotr player for years, then I took a break for a bit, and when I came back the game had changed. It was now the hobbit. The problem with the hobbit was that the models were prohibitively expensive. Even for an avid fan I couldn't justify the outlay in pounds for these new models. There was clearly next to no support for the hobbit game and it has faded.

If age of sigmar suffers from this price point it's going to be a tough sell.

you'd be surprised how strong the lotr community still is if you look in the right places. In Australia alone the community has taken it upon it's self to maintain a strong tournament scene. Then there is the Great British Hobbit League in the UK doing similar. But something LOTR has going for it that Warhammer doesn't is external exposure from external IP. We're well on track top losing all miniature support from gw, but at the very least people will always recognize what lotr is and even be drawn to a wargame based on it without ever having had a single interaction with GW. Warhammer hasn't got this luxury. A few years of non support from GW could see the brand fade rapidly

bound for glory
20-06-2015, 01:33
In the short term that may be true, on the other hand if AoS is not great you might find a lot of people want to keep playing WFB and as the older models drop off GWs OLS the price of second hand models only goes up.

In any case both these points only work in the very short term, once you can no longer buy warhammer models second hand prices will rocket regardless (just look at the price of OOP LotR models on ebay now, and that is for a game "no-one played"). High model cost and no company support means no (or very few) new players for the game so every time someone from your group gets bored with the hobby or moves to a different city or leaves for whatever other reason that's one less person in your community that won't be replaced.

Some large, committed groups might keep WFB alive for 5 years or more, but it's now on the slow spiral to extinction everywhere.

it might not happen like this. mean to say, i've played blood bowl scinse the first edition(complete with card stand up players) and our group plays 2 leagues a year. we play modified 3rd ed. we get betwwen 12 and 20 coaches at our flgs.
and bb is ignored by gw...

mbh1127
20-06-2015, 02:27
you'd be surprised how strong the lotr community still is if you look in the right places. In Australia alone the community has taken it upon it's self to maintain a strong tournament scene. Then there is the Great British Hobbit League in the UK doing similar. But something LOTR has going for it that Warhammer doesn't is external exposure from external IP. We're well on track top losing all miniature support from gw, but at the very least people will always recognize what lotr is and even be drawn to a wargame based on it without ever having had a single interaction with GW. Warhammer hasn't got this luxury. A few years of non support from GW could see the brand fade rapidly

I disagree

if you ended the support for Lotr and WH, I'm pretty confident WH would have more of a following and last longer. I can't really prove this but the recent oldhammer resurgence might mean something. The oldhammer guys couldn't care less about modern GW, and that community is going strong.

heliodorus04
20-06-2015, 05:47
I have been collecting Warhammer figures since 2004, when I found a box of Skinks impossible to resist after walking into a Games Workshop store.
I never played much, actually. The community has never been strong in Denver after 6th edition.
Sadly, I was just asking some friends if they were interested in getting in to Warhammer 8th edition, since they hadn't played.
And then, in the last 5 days, I looked up some info to see where 8th edition is in terms of an update.

I have decision to make when AoS comes out: is it worth it to keep pursuing the game?
As much as I love the models, if AoS kills ranked fighting, then I have a lot of stuff to sell on e-bay (new in sealed box, at least).
Frankly, GW doesn't deserve my loyalty, and I do not anticipate buying any AoS stuff.
It'd be better to sell my NIB stuff and look in to Hordes.

I almost had 2 new players for WFB... almost...

The Marshel
20-06-2015, 06:03
I disagree

if you ended the support for Lotr and WH, I'm pretty confident WH would have more of a following and last longer. I can't really prove this but the recent oldhammer resurgence might mean something. The oldhammer guys couldn't care less about modern GW, and that community is going strong.

My point isn't so much that Lotr sbg will outlive WHFB but that the Lotr Ip most certainly will and this is an invaluable tool for anyone looking to maintain and build a community for a defunct game

Col. Tartleton
20-06-2015, 12:57
Even if the world says we have to use Mantic Rules to find games and buy new miniatures from Game Zone they're still going to be Warhammer dudes because goddamn it I already like that one.

Spider-pope
20-06-2015, 16:07
I disagree

if you ended the support for Lotr and WH, I'm pretty confident WH would have more of a following and last longer. I can't really prove this but the recent oldhammer resurgence might mean something. The oldhammer guys couldn't care less about modern GW, and that community is going strong.

Well we'll be able to find out soon. Warhammer is being dropped next month, the license for LotR and the Hobbit ends next year. So we'll get to see which one survives longest without support and new releases. Exciting.

mbh1127
20-06-2015, 19:39
ha, can't wait.

It will be WH though. Just for the reason that many more people currently play.

Rincewind
29-06-2015, 13:55
If the Total Warhammer games are popular I could definitely see Games Workshop doing another game set in the 'Old World'

I was wondering about that myself. They have the opportunity to induct tens of thousands of new players into the hobby and that's when they decide to take the game behind the shed? It's the stupidest business decision I've seen a company make, ever.

Khastarax
29-06-2015, 15:46
I also believe that GW underestimate the -no offence intended- acid pissing nature of the online community. As GW is silent of the future of WHFB since (and during) End Times, people are anxiously waiting, turning to the web for information, which is often a portion of the community that likes to do these non-offence-meaning-scribbling. The hole between ET and the new version has a lot of people leaving, turning to other alternatives that are more secure and /or losing motivation for anything new.

PP is smart in diving right into the cavity that GW is dropping: (online) community and gaming/tournament support. What I just cannot wrap my head around is why GW does not see this, and if they see it, why they do not act accordingly. I'm a GW fanboy, but the lack of communication is really upsetting me as well. This just emphasises the feeling of GW only being interested in the waterfall of euro's coming their way instead of supporting the community. No positive community is eventually a failing community. Making nice minis is only one part of the business... It is obvious to me that (enthusiastic) veterans are the best -free- marketing you can get.

I do have to say that not all realise that GW is still going for various requests of the community as in Harleys, mechanicum, shaking up WHF, faster release schedules. Its just a little bit overdone: biweekly release schedule would already make a lot of people happy, so GW doesn't have to stretch it so hard that it starts to bite them and the community can't keep up... WHF, do not need to say anything more...

Promethius
29-06-2015, 17:06
I can't say the new models impress me much. If the rumoured price point of Ģ80 for the starter is correct I doubt I will pick it up and if the new models don't fit in with my empire collection I won't pick up any other new figures. It's hard for me to see how AoS will be a success if the existing players aren't enthusiastic and GW hasn't been advertising outside of their usual circle. Even if the 40k players love it they are likely to just be canabalising 40k sales rather than significantly increasing their customer base.

I can kind of understand GW wanting a clean break but I don't really see why they couldn't have had sigmar and his marines turn up for the final battle of the end times, kick face and then just zoom forward 200 years which would have achieved more or less the same thing without completely miffing off the existing playerbase and needing to create tons of new background of unfortunately I expect dubious quality

beanerboy
29-06-2015, 17:13
Sorry didn't mean to derail this thread. My evidence is only anecdotal at best.

The only relation I was making was that lotr was on a bit of a downward spiral (the halving of the contents of the troops boxes was difficult to stomach) then when it was at its anecdotal lowest point the hobbit came along with the perfect opportunity to bring players like me back into the game. It didn't make it due to the extortionate pricing and lack of gw based support. I went into a hobby store and asked for an intro game... The person in the store didn't know the rules or the rules from lotr so couldn't sell me it based on that.

Like I say, could warhammer and age of sigmar go the same way?

HelloKitty
29-06-2015, 17:51
What I just cannot wrap my head around is why GW does not see this, and if they see it, why they do not act accordingly

I know from past conversations over the years, one of the biggest things that GW took note of was the 5th edition of 40k. That was truly a tournament edition, and it was so much so that it was at detriment to anything else in the 40k universe. Few would pick up their apocalypse expansion, models, city fight, etc, because it was not tournament standard, and Forge World also was not tournament standard.

From the point of view of sales, that was huge. So they made everything standard.

By making everything standard and avoiding tournament support, they repelled the tournament community away.

I think that that has something to do with why they are doing what they are doing in regards to tournament support (not doing it).

TheFang
29-06-2015, 20:40
Few would pick up their apocalypse expansion, models, city fight, etc, because it was not tournament standard, and Forge World also was not tournament standard.

What screwed the supplements was that they were outdated, ignored and superceded by GW almost literally within hours of publication. (Wargear I'm looking at you.) I've avoided buying them for years now. If they go to online free rules which they update regularly I'd be a very happy camper.

Voss
30-06-2015, 06:17
That would be one of the most hilariously epic retcons ever, though I'm pretty sure reading why the old world wasn't destroyed in the end times after all would make my eyeballs bleed.
Everyone jumps in a gate that leads to another world that the Slann terraformed back in the day. They used the exact same template for multiple worlds, after all. Bonus for fixing the horrible 'Slann are servants of the Old Ones' retcon, too (rather than their degenerate descendants, as is more evocative and proper). Chaos follows through the polar gates and.... tadah. Back to the save point.

ShruikhanTK
01-07-2015, 04:04
Just give us a new world map plz, repopulate it with the same factions and new characters leading them and we are set and set. But no.....space bubbles and space marines are cool too....frosty dark elves of the north....sigmarines...rampaging dinos riding dinos awesome....juiced up mauraders eh
...the comparison is just sickening atm.

Emperor Karl Franz
01-07-2015, 04:21
They went all out and made Sigmar a Thor clone in every way. Now he's all about hurling lightning bolts all over the place and even his army are essentially Einherjar from Valhalla.

Harwammer
10-07-2015, 09:04
I'm guessing a subsequent warhammer strategy game might 1) fill in details of the 1000 year gap 2) have points values.

Shandor
10-07-2015, 09:50
Isn't this the truth?

For $20, I guarantee you that even the worst of us doomsayers will pick up the AoS box. For a game we love (or maybe love to hate), we'll pick it up.

But, it's going to be $100. I am so certain of this that if it is less, I'll buy the box. If by some miracle the box is worth less than $50 (or less than $49.9X), I will buy $1000 worth of 8th/AoS-legal models, from GW directly. Hell, I'll even sig(mar?) this. So that if it does come to pass, you may laugh in my general direction.

Actually even if i kinda like the Sigmarines as an idea of Holy Paladin faction and think Warscrolls are a good idea.. there is still no reason to buy the Box. Just for Painting? Well half of the box is 100% uninteresting for me since i really dislike Chaos. And i dont like Sigmarines THAT much to buy the box. If they would not look so much like Space Marines and more like Medieval Paladins i might got one. If i could Paint AND play them i would have gotten a box. But as it seems i could paint them and cant play them (since there are no playable Rules).. Not really a reason to spend that much money.
If i stop that hobby i dont need them. If i stay with the 8th i dont need them. If i dont play AoS, i dont need them. If i want to paint i could get better Models for less.