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View Full Version : Is Abaddon Horus' Clone?



SlowingCoyote
17-06-2015, 20:42
I just began reading the copy of 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos, and I'm confused by a certain tidbit.

That is. "He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation."

Now does this still hold in the canon? I really hope that it does, because it adds a whole new level of hatred to Abaddon.

jareddm3
17-06-2015, 21:43
It was a rumor when it was first written and it's a rumor to this day. That's all it ever will be. A rumor.

Karhedron
17-06-2015, 21:53
There has been nothing in the Horus Heresy novels to substantiate or refute this particular rumour so it remains just that.

sweave
18-06-2015, 04:07
i think the clone aspect was given a nod (not official) with the whole true sons bit in the heresy books but more than that; who knows

Razios
18-06-2015, 07:24
there was this handwave in the novels and rulebook, saying that luna wolf tend to look like their primach in looks, just like "little horus" so that is where this come from, it also highlight the cult of personality in the sons of horus

daftpunkevo
18-06-2015, 08:40
That would be the most failed attempt at cloning someone, the 40k universe ever witnessed if failbaddon is indeed a clone.

WarsmithGarathor94
18-06-2015, 09:25
That would be the most failed attempt at cloning someone, the 40k universe ever witnessed if failbaddon is indeed a clone.

He's hardly failbaddon

Rogue Star
18-06-2015, 10:26
That would be the most failed attempt at cloning someone, the 40k universe ever witnessed if failbaddon is indeed a clone.

What does that make Warmaster Horus? He advanced upon the Throne-World of Terra with over half of the Imperium's armed forces and it's Primarch at his back, and was defeated - Abandon has had to fight to restore the Sons of Horus position as the preeminent Traitor Legion, secure the loyalties of the now very fractured and enthralled to their chosen Chaos Power Legion remnants. Basically he's had an uphill struggle compared to Warmaster Horus, and yet last we heard, he successfully broke up the Cadian Gate in the 13th Black Crusade (a lot of people seem to forget that was a Chaos victory, at the end of the campaign).

7788
18-06-2015, 15:17
I just began reading the copy of 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos, and I'm confused by a certain tidbit.

That is. "He worshipped the Warmaster like a god and Horus treated him as his most favoured son, indeed some whispered that he was in truth the clone-son of the Primarch himself, product of the earliest Primogenitor experimentation."

Now does this still hold in the canon? I really hope that it does, because it adds a whole new level of hatred to Abaddon.

Imo, Abaddon's portrayal in the HH series gives no indication that he worshiped Horus. Neither is there an indication that he is the most favoured. Actually, an unequivocal statement from GW (Dan Abnett) is that Hastor Sejanus was the Warmaster's favourite ("Horus Rising"). Abaddon was First Captain, which is both a position of trust and of martial merit. As for whether he was the clone-son: that is "whispered by some". Draw your own conclusions. This could be there to add drama. This could be there as a seed of future fluff direction. But since it is only a "whisper", it can be easily discarded/left to rot by GW if/when real-world situations warrant it. That is the proper way of writing fluff imo. Otherwise options become unnecessarily limited.

The bit about the Primogenitor is cute, if it refers to Bile. According to more recent lore Bile didn't succeed in his cloning experiments until after the HH. So this sort of clouds exactly which Abaddon we are talking about here.

Imo, as a rule, Studio fluff is written in a more breath-taking, over-excited way than BL fluff. This is to be expected. The reasons are (hopefully) obvious.

EDIT: BL's Laurie Goulding stated that the most recent version of the lore is the most definitive version. That doesn't mean that everything in the older lore is not valid, but that the proper frame of reference should be the new stuff.

Harwammer
20-06-2015, 13:16
It raises an interesting, perhaps hypothetical, question.

If Bile had a decent amount of success at cloning Horus in the early days of the Imperium (Abaddon?), how come he was unable to replicate his results later? I suppose one difference between the two times is he had a living Primarch in the first case, but a dead (soul destroyed) Horus in the second.

Any more reasons for why Bile couldn't clone a Primarch after the HH (if he really did succeed during the crusade).

7788
20-06-2015, 14:48
It raises an interesting, perhaps hypothetical, question.

If Bile had a decent amount of success at cloning Horus in the early days of the Imperium (Abaddon?), how come he was unable to replicate his results later? I suppose one difference between the two times is he had a living Primarch in the first case, but a dead (soul destroyed) Horus in the second.

Any more reasons for why Bile couldn't clone a Primarch after the HH (if he really did succeed during the crusade).

There is a disconnect in GW's narrative of 30K Bile vs. 40K Bile, just as there is a similar disconnect between 30K vs. 40K Abaddon. Probably because the character's development/transition still has many gaps. Whether these gaps will be covered by GW and whether such coverage will make sense is another story.
We are told that in 40K Bile has scaled up his ambitions, and is now trying to clone the Emperor (Blood Angels Series). During the Heresy he did make multiple clones of at least one Primarch (the HH short Imperfect), that were more or less workable. These were more like true replicas, not just physical vessels. The Primarch's clones retained part of his consciousness. It is not clear if this was engineered, or a natural result of the rebirthing/cloning process.

Abaddon presents more problems. Apart from his portrayal in the HH Series, his portrayal in the Black Legion Series seems incompatible with the old lore of the 2nd ed Chaos Codex.

jareddm3
22-06-2015, 00:56
There is a disconnect in GW's narrative of 30K Bile vs. 40K Bile, just as there is a similar disconnect between 30K vs. 40K Abaddon. Probably because the character's development/transition still has many gaps. Whether these gaps will be covered by GW and whether such coverage will make sense is another story.
We are told that in 40K Bile has scaled up his ambitions, and is now trying to clone the Emperor (Blood Angels Series). During the Heresy he did make multiple clones of at least one Primarch (the HH short Imperfect), that were more or less workable. These were more like true replicas, not just physical vessels. The Primarch's clones retained part of his consciousness. It is not clear if this was engineered, or a natural result of the rebirthing/cloning process.

Abaddon presents more problems. Apart from his portrayal in the HH Series, his portrayal in the Black Legion Series seems incompatible with the old lore of the 2nd ed Chaos Codex.
You're comparing an individual's personality to their personality 100 years later, to their personality approximately 10,000 years afterwards? Even in the first 100 years following the heresy, we know Abaddon went on a pilgrimage across the Eye of Terror, learning and rediscovering himself after his whole world view was shattered with the death of Horus. You really expect Abaddon to again be the same person in M41?

7788
22-06-2015, 14:15
You're comparing an individual's personality to their personality 100 years later, to their personality approximately 10,000 years afterwards? Even in the first 100 years following the heresy, we know Abaddon went on a pilgrimage across the Eye of Terror, learning and rediscovering himself after his whole world view was shattered with the death of Horus. You really expect Abaddon to again be the same person in M41?

I'm not expecting anything. This is not about me. I make observations about how GW presents the lore. I've no idea what GW means regarding Abaddon's perception of time, this part of the character's presentation is not clear to me. I can tell there are differences between Abaddon's portrayal in 40K and his 30K self. These differences have not (yet?) been fully explained, imo. Hence the disconnect.

Anima
22-06-2015, 19:29
Nope, Abaddon is actually the firstborn son of Cthonia's (at that time) greatest Warlord.
He killed his father after a disastrous coming of age ritual and then lived in exile until the Luna Wolves scooped him up.

Grimstonefire
24-06-2015, 21:42
In the Talon of Horus

Abbadon thinks Horus was weak and a fool before killing his clone without a seconds thought

I don't know much about 40k fluff, but afaik that's the only 'clone' of Horus. Others may share more genetic traits than some, but they're not clones imo.

Harwammer
25-06-2015, 13:51
Nope, Abaddon is actually the firstborn son of Cthonia's (at that time) greatest Warlord.
He killed his father after a disastrous coming of age ritual and then lived in exile until the Luna Wolves scooped him up.So the only way Abaddon could really be a clone is if Fabius somehow genetically re-wrote Abaddon, perhaps using his existing body as donor tissue... which would be like an exaggerated version of the usual method of creating space marines (I guess would produce a result somewhere between a normal space marine and a primarch)?

7788
25-06-2015, 14:34
So the only way Abaddon could really be a clone is if Fabius somehow genetically re-wrote Abaddon, perhaps using his existing body as donor tissue... which is would be like an exaggerated version of the usual method of creating space marines (I guess would produce a result somewhere between a normal space marine and a primarch)?

That's neither here nor there. I don't think the OP was concerned with a hypothetical question, or with trying to divine ways by which Abaddon could be made a clone of Horus, in case GW ever decided that yes, let's make Abaddon a clone of Horus. The only thing in the lore about the topic question is an ambiguous piece of old fluff: it was a "whisper" by "some". Even this is absent in current lore. I suppose that anything else about this would fall under fan fiction/speculation.

Harwammer
25-06-2015, 16:48
The only thing in the lore about the topic question is an ambiguous piece of old fluff: it was a "whisper" by "some". Even this is absent in current lore. I suppose that anything else about this would fall under fan fiction/speculation. Admittedly the copyright on the most recent chaos codex says 2012, but I disagree that it is old fluff. I consider this codex current lore, even if it is three years old. Note, according to the codex, the rumour exists as part of the 30K timeline, which I found particularly interesting seeing as Abaddon's birth apparently has been described.

7788
25-06-2015, 18:38
I think that the OP is referring to the 1996 Codex. IIRC, this is about the time we first got the Abaddon character, the rules, and the model. A fair number of stuff in that Codex is very likely no longer valid. It is almost certain that a lot of stuff pertaining to 30K has been rewritten since then. The particular item was written-in as an intentional ambiguity to begin with. It can therefore be abandoned with minimum fuss.

Harwammer
25-06-2015, 19:19
1996 codex may be irrelevant to you, but my point is the rumour is mentioned in the most recent chaos codex under Abaddon's fluff entry, and it is mentioned during the part where the codex explains who Abaddon was during the GC/HH era.

Lord Damocles
25-06-2015, 19:40
The particular item was written-in as an intentional ambiguity to begin with. It can therefore be abandoned with minimum fuss.
Even if it wasn't in fact 'current' background (Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th ed.), pg.57), as you note, it was only ever an in-universe rumour, so there would be no need for it to be abandoned - even if not mentioned for two decades it could quite happily still be an in-universe rumour.

7788
25-06-2015, 20:31
Even if it wasn't in fact 'current' background (Codex: Chaos Space Marines (6th ed.), pg.57), as you note, it was only ever an in-universe rumour, so there would be no need for it to be abandoned - even if not mentioned for two decades it could quite happily still be an in-universe rumour.

Quite. However, by "abandoned" I mean no further development by GW. Yet Abaddon the character has otherwise developed. Whether this tidbit was originally put in there for dramatic tension, or because Fabious Bile had also first appeared at the time, or because GW saw it as a possible future development path, is not really important. Because Abaddon has otherwise developed in the meantime, translating the relevant in-universe rumor into in-universe fact would have to take into account Abbadon's subsequent development. This is more complicated, and the payoff uncertain (to me as a consumer of lore, and perhaps to GW as the producer).

Harwammer
25-06-2015, 20:52
My mistake then. I misread your post thinking you were saying the rumour was no longer mentioned, rather than it hadn't been expanded on.

It is interesting having rumours that exist in fluff that are actually probably false (such as this one), since it gets a little tiring of every 'rumour' turning out to be true.

I suppose the other option from Fabius rewriting Abaddon's genetic material would be Abaddon was actually a clone that was implanted as an embryo into the King's wife and carried as a normal human child?

Either way it seems the most likely explanation is the rumour is false.

Karhedron
26-06-2015, 10:09
Horus' early days on Cthonia have almost never been mentioned. For most of the other Primarchs, we know the outlines of their lives on their adopted homeworlds (Alpharius/Omegon being the only other exception I can think of). Who knows what Horus got up to in his early days. Could he have had a "clone son" who came with him when he was discovered by the Emperor? It seems unlikely given what we know of Horus and Abaddon but GW tend to leave plot hooks hanging around just in case they want to revisit something later.

The quiescent perils of the C'tan anyone? ;)

Harwammer
26-06-2015, 20:24
I've been thinking about the origins of Abaddon.

So it is said he is the exiled son of Cthonia's most powerful gang warlord? Who would that have been? Keep in mind it is said Horus himself was raised by the gangs of Cthonia. It seems likely Horus would have at some point risen to a position of significant power among these gangs (being a primarch and all). Between the vague origins of both Horus and Abaddon, sharing the same planet and both being products of the gang societies it seems like something may have been intended to have been read between the lines... speculation and rumours!

Razios
26-06-2015, 22:05
I've been thinking about the origins of Abaddon.

So it is said he is the exiled son of Cthonia's most powerful gang warlord? Who would that have been? Keep in mind it is said Horus himself was raised by the gangs of Cthonia. It seems likely Horus would have at some point risen to a position of significant power among these gangs (being a primarch and all). Between the vague origins of both Horus and Abaddon, sharing the same planet and both being products of the gang societies it seems like something may have been intended to have been read between the lines... speculation and rumours!

Maybe, but for some reason Horus time in cthonia was let out for some reason, so we dont really know how much time he spend right there or what he did, its quite a shame actually