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Herkamer63
18-06-2015, 15:46
I can't say everyone is excited, but there's most certainly optimistic DA players out there. With a new codex getting ready to come out, I can see how DA players are getting ready for some changes, and changes there are. Thanks to some leaked images, we have a better idea of what to expect from the 1st SM Legion (former Legion to be more exact).

Lots of formations were spotted, and one of them was the C:SM Battle Demi Company making its way into the DA, which is pretty awesome. Objective secured on a bunch of guys will be very useful. Also found in the leaks are a few RW formations. I remember one formation including their flyers, so maybe they'll get something decent. Last one worth noting is a DW formation. Here's hoping DWK get some nasty benefit. Now, at this moment there are no details as to what each formation will bring rule wise, but within the next week, someone with the codex will post images of these formations with rules.

A few particular imagery have shown grav weapons. I figured sooner or later this would happen (at least with the Tac Squads) because it's part of the Codex: Adeptus Astartes line, so no real surprise there. The reason, however, it's even worth noting is because of the recent addition of grav cannons with grav amps in Dev squads that are now in C:SM, and, unexpectedly, DA are getting the same treatment with their Devies, thanks to pics inside of WD showing off C:SM all the while showing DA units with them as well. Along with that, DA Veteran Squads are getting the grav weapon treatment as well, so Vet Squads have become more legit to use. Especially when they can already take 2 special weapons and a heavy (hopefully grav pistols are an option for the whole squad).

Last thing that's worth noting are new sprues. I know there are upgrade packs, but having everything you need in one box makes it a lot easier to track. Plus, the new bits, I think, look good. This would look great for anyone who wants to have hooded SM that are not DA. The only pain in the rear part is getting different shoulder pads, especially if you created your own chapter. Other than that , it's good to see, visually, DA are becoming more diverse.

The only thing, and I think I speak for a few people here, that's making me anxious: the rules. The issue that tops my list, among other things, is what is to happen with plasma. For years, plasma has been a huge part of DA, and now that grav weapons are now in the codex, just by looking at the leaked images anyway, I get the feeling that not a lot of people will use plasma. Unless GW did one thing: re-roll 'Gets Hot'. That's all they need in order to make plasma useful again in DA. Another issue are the DWK. I love the models, the rules, and fluff on them, but the weapons they have doesn't justify them. I think AP3 with rending would be better suited for them, with the flail at AP2. Lastly, the fliers...need I say more? Oh well, here's hoping on that subject.

Despite the woes, I think, overall, we're looking at a pretty solid release. The formations alone should help energize this codex, especially for those who play RW and/or DW. If plasma doesn't get the buff that it needs, the grav weapons will most certainly balance it out, and then some. To top it all off, the new sprues will make them go out in DA fashion. So again, there is optimism to go around. When the rules finally hit, I think we will some relief for the Sons of the Lion. That's all I have for now. Let's keep an eye out for anything new, and let's sound off and see if anyone else is feeling optimistic.

GrandmasterWang
18-06-2015, 16:32
I am looking forward to this release a lot.

I did see a spoiler look at the Chaplain and it lookes fantastic!

With the rules coming off the back of Space Marines I am hoping this DA Codex has significant differences but matches up well next to it. If they do NOT include any fOPmations in the Dark Angels Codex (like Skyhammer) it will be a blessing!

As Space Marines had no outright broken units unlike the Eldar Codex I am optimistic that Dark Angels will be similar to Marines and not Eldar.

Also 160 pages :)

Its a big un!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Spiney Norman
18-06-2015, 17:19
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash? It's not so much out of trepidation that they might screw the codex up (though there is that), but more that I'm kind of on the cusp of letting go of 40k altogether at the moment, Necrons and Eldar particularly have damaged the game so much over the last few months I'm finding my enthusiasm for the game is at an all time low.

WarsmithGarathor94
18-06-2015, 17:39
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash? It's not so much out of trepidation that they might screw the codex up (though there is that), but more that I'm kind of on the cusp of letting go of 40k altogether at the moment, Necrons and Eldar particularly have damaged the game so much over the last few months I'm finding my enthusiasm for the game is at an all time low.

Nah its not I'm going to do the same when chaos marines finally get their 7th ed book.

I'm rather optimistic for dark angels and hopeful that they get a good book

InstantKarma
18-06-2015, 18:07
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash? It's not so much out of trepidation that they might screw the codex up (though there is that), but more that I'm kind of on the cusp of letting go of 40k altogether at the moment, Necrons and Eldar particularly have damaged the game so much over the last few months I'm finding my enthusiasm for the game is at an all time low.

I think if that is the point you are at Spiney then that seems like a smart decision. I know I'm at the opposite pole in that I am getting back into 40k after a hiatus of a year from moving to a new state and still trying to get established with a local gaming group and finding a decent local store to make my purchases.

I am also excited by the prospect. I've been purhcasing DA Codexes since 5th (oh that was a BAD book) and they've always been my favorite chapter, but this release has got me finally putting my DV DAs together and I'm excited at the possibility of some solid formations and buffs (or at least pts reductions).

Voss
18-06-2015, 18:22
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash?
Not at all. It is actually the most reasonable approach. Regardless of enthusiasm or the state of the game, an informed decision is always superior to an ignorant one.

AngryAngel
18-06-2015, 18:37
DA optimism is a hard thing to really have anymore. I will say I am as hopeful as I can be for this release, so lets see how it shakes out.

Herkamer63
18-06-2015, 19:03
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash? It's not so much out of trepidation that they might screw the codex up (though there is that), but more that I'm kind of on the cusp of letting go of 40k altogether at the moment, Necrons and Eldar particularly have damaged the game so much over the last few months I'm finding my enthusiasm for the game is at an all time low.

YES! YOU'RE TERRIBLE, AWFUL, EVIL HUMAN BEING FOR EVEN MENTIONING THAT YOU WOULD WAIT TO READ OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCES OTHER PEOPLE HAVE HAD WITH IT! BURN HERETIC! ...sorry. I couldn't resist that one. All jokes aside, I don't see any problem with waiting until some reviews come out. I can understand the hesitance, especially when DA players could have had better rules to use. I'm getting it because I decided to try and get all the Imperial books. Plus, with the current trends, I think this should be an awesome codex.

AngryAngel
18-06-2015, 19:06
Is it bad that I'm planning to wait until I've read the codex reviews before actually forking out the cash? It's not so much out of trepidation that they might screw the codex up (though there is that), but more that I'm kind of on the cusp of letting go of 40k altogether at the moment, Necrons and Eldar particularly have damaged the game so much over the last few months I'm finding my enthusiasm for the game is at an all time low.

Spiney, it is bad, and awful and beyond redemption to wait for reviews. Pre Order the codex, do it today, DO IT NOW !! Get to the codex !!!

Sephillion
18-06-2015, 19:08
I’m cautiously optimistic for this book. However, GW will need to do more than a good DA book to entice me into spending more for them rather than other games/hobbies – they’ll need to put out a great book.

My hope is that stuff that needs a buff gets improved, and not just because of awesome formations. I don’t care if the Nephilim and Dark Talons are awesome when you take three or four, if they suck individually – I’m not falling for that.

I’d have preferred something along the lines of “no Gets Hot” or “reroll Gets Hot” to use more plasma, than more grav weapons, but a step forward is a step forward.

The fact that there are three detachments alone is promising.

Losing Command
18-06-2015, 19:24
Doesn't even mentioning the word 'optimism' get you an urgent appointment with a Interrogator-chaplain for some discipline-time in a prota rack ? :p

It will be good to see DA finally getting grav-weapons, it was odd those were introduced with the 6th edition SM codex rather than the DA one, with the whole more-arcane-rare-stuff-than-your-average-chapter vibe DA have going for them. I wouldn't worry to much about plasma dissappearing, since grav-guns on infantery aren't that great, but something that makes plasma weapons more appealing for DA sounds cool.

Grand Master Raziel
18-06-2015, 20:54
I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming release. With it coming after Codex: Space Marines for once, I'm thinking the book's authors will have at least read the vanilla dex and/or talked to its developers, and adjusted rules and points appropriately. If not, it'll be a hilarious display of incompetence.

Another thing has me cautiously optimistic - there are no new units coming out with this release. That means the only thing they can do with it is tweak rules. One would think they'd at least pay attention to their model sales and go, "Huh, the Nephilim/Dark Talon kit seems to be underperforming, maybe we need to make it more attractive to DA players".

One last little tidbit - the fluff for Eldar Dimensional Weapons state they function by tearing open a hole to the warp. The fluff for the Dark Talon's Rift cannon states it functions by tearing open a hole in reality. Those two things sound very similar. Plus, the Rift Cannon's fluff states it's a relic from the Dark Age of Technology, but its rules are pretty underwhelming. If ever there was a candidate for a Strength D weapon in a Space Marine army, it's the Rift Cannon.

Beppo1234
18-06-2015, 21:02
"Huh, the Nephilim/Dark Talon kit seems to be underperforming, maybe we need to make it more attractive to DA players".



a new kit is the only way to make that monstrosity attractive

InstantKarma
18-06-2015, 21:09
Well with everyone being so level headed, reasonable, and forward thinking in planing for this release (as all good Dark Angels should) I can volunteer to be the collective guinea pig and do the pre-order so that I can take on role of doomsayer or bringer of light, depending on the codex :-P

Herkamer63
18-06-2015, 22:11
It's interesting that one of the formations from C:SM made the cut for DA. However, I can see an errata come out and legalize everything from regular SM and DA to BA and SW. As far as new units: I wasn't really surprised that there wasn't anything new , although a new transport wouldn't hurt. We'll see what happens if there are any big changes to the rules. The fliers I think need to be better or reduce their pts greatly. Also, you do bring up a good point about the rift cannon. Why can't that be strength D? It meets all the requirements in the fluff to have it. Maybe because it's not Eldar. Great point though.

Herkamer63
18-06-2015, 22:12
sorry. I was trying to reply with the quote and it wasn't giving me the whole quote.

Wesser
19-06-2015, 07:36
Does this mean CSM get to be the only really terrible Codex now? (since Sisters of Battle seems to have gone Bretonnia... and technically don't even have a Codex)

That's nice.

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 11:35
I am optimistic about the new codex, I always get excited to see what's coming.

Ravenwing will be improved by a formation.
Azrael should be a Lord of War and so may finally get the power level he deserves.

GW showed willingness to do right by the Dark Angels with the current codex which was a giant leap forward to mediocrity, I am hopeful we get treated well this time.

Spiney Norman
19-06-2015, 12:19
I am optimistic about the new codex, I always get excited to see what's coming.

Ravenwing will be improved by a formation.
Azrael should be a Lord of War and so may finally get the power level he deserves.

GW showed willingness to do right by the Dark Angels with the current codex which was a giant leap forward to mediocrity, I am hopeful we get treated well this time.

I hope you're right, I've been a little nervous about Azrael (and Ezekiel too actually) since their models never got finecasted, I'd hate to see them filed in the same coffin as Asdrubael Vect...

Russell's teapot
19-06-2015, 12:29
Well, for the first time in a generation codex DA isn't coming out before codex UM.

So it might actually not be a steaming pile of horse manure in comparison.

Might.

dblaz3r
19-06-2015, 13:03
I hope you're right, I've been a little nervous about Azrael (and Ezekiel too actually) since their models never got finecasted, I'd hate to see them filed in the same coffin as Asdrubael Vect...

Given that both are specifically named in the Inner Circle auxiliary choice it's pretty clear they aren't going anywhere.

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 13:41
Given that both are specifically named in the Inner Circle auxiliary choice it's pretty clear they aren't going anywhere.

But if GW were serious about the DA codex being as important as all the others, wouldn't we have finecast or plastic models by now?

Grand Master Raziel
19-06-2015, 13:51
Maybe it's a good sign. Perhaps GW saw the writing on the wall with Failcast before they got around to consigning our characters to it, and opted to keep them in pewter instead of screwing up decent models.

Vaulkhar
19-06-2015, 13:55
Or maybe they're doing completely new sculpts. In Finecast. With the skills of those legendary first production runs.

I'll also be preordering (foolish, yes, but...) so will stick a few ramblings up here.

dblaz3r
19-06-2015, 13:56
Not necessarily, if they have decided to phase out finecast then they might not see the point in switching the remaining metals. No one really knows until GW come out and say what's what though.

Also, if being the focus of the current starter set, getting an upgrade sprue, new Interrogator, a new codex and having a bunch of DA specific kits isn't enough confirmation that GW are serious about DA then I don't know what to tell you.

That's much better treatment than some armies get.

Beppo1234
19-06-2015, 14:02
... a good point about the rift cannon. Why can't that be strength D? It meets all the requirements in the fluff to have it. Maybe because it's not Eldar. Great point though.

all flyers, IMO, should have an option for D-Strength upgrades. In the end, that's what all flyers are for, to deliver one's heaviest ordnance as quickly as possible. There should certainly be a 'flyer armory'. The rigidity of flyer weapon load out doesn't make much sense to me, when the flyer is a platform for weapons, not a weapon in itself.

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 15:01
That's much better treatment than some armies get.

Name one.
What other faction still has metals for key models and got only one new model (That 3 totally serviceable models exist for) with its codex release?

Still, yes optimistic.

InstantKarma
19-06-2015, 15:16
Didn't the Grey Knights get 0 new models with their most recent release? Now their scuplts were all MUCH newer, so I'm sure GW figured it was just an easily release a new codex and call it a day.

I also can't help but get a warm feeling that Azrael and Ezekiel are still the same models since when I first started 40k back in the mid 90's.

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 15:46
That may be true and Necrons got 1 new model but neither still has metals in the range for such important models.

Zustiur
19-06-2015, 16:09
Sisters are still metal. Got 0 new models.
Grey knights got 0.
Necrons got 1.

That's 3 on equal or worse footing update-wise.
Sent via Tapatalk 2

Beppo1234
19-06-2015, 16:45
But if GW were serious about the DA codex being as important as all the others, wouldn't we have finecast or plastic models by now?

ok, those models suffer from a little bit of scale creep, but are still miles ahead of the current plastic finecrap output... and metal is better given that it lasts forever. Remember when hobby product wasn't disposable?

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 18:26
Sisters are still metal. Got 0 new models.
Grey knights got 0.
Necrons got 1.

That's 3 on equal or worse footing update-wise.


Sisters haven't had a book, Necrons and GKs have no metal models in their range. None of your examples work.

Lion El Jason
19-06-2015, 18:28
ok, those models suffer from a little bit of scale creep, but are still miles ahead of the current plastic finecrap output... and metal is better given that it lasts forever. Remember when hobby product wasn't disposable?

I still love the Goodwin sculpts. Nothing is better than a Jes marine :)
But the fact that GW can't be bothered to update JUST the DA when they get a book shows a lot TBH.

Still that Azrael mini should get more use when he's a LoW :)

AngryAngel
19-06-2015, 19:30
Well, for the first time in a generation codex DA isn't coming out before codex UM.

So it might actually not be a steaming pile of horse manure in comparison.

Might.

If it is, they have no excuse this time but for complete idiocy.



Maybe it's a good sign. Perhaps GW saw the writing on the wall with Failcast before they got around to consigning our characters to it, and opted to keep them in pewter instead of screwing up decent models.

I would like to think so, however they are very dated models.



I still love the Goodwin sculpts. Nothing is better than a Jes marine :)
But the fact that GW can't be bothered to update JUST the DA when they get a book shows a lot TBH.

Still that Azrael mini should get more use when he's a LoW :)

I tend to believe he'll stay just about exactly the same as he is now, so we'll see I suppose.

Grand Master Raziel
19-06-2015, 19:35
I would like to think so, however they are very dated models.


Azrael has that "I'm posing for a statue of myself" look, but Ezekial's is pretty badass. If they changed Ezekial's model, about all they'd be likely to do is screw it up.

Beppo1234
19-06-2015, 19:35
I still love the Goodwin sculpts. Nothing is better than a Jes marine :)
But the fact that GW can't be bothered to update JUST the DA when they get a book shows a lot TBH.

Still that Azrael mini should get more use when he's a LoW :)

none of the 'updates' for goodwin product have impressed me at all among the marine franchises. I vomit on the current finecast Asmodai.

I'm glad Azrael never went to finecast, the mk.II Azrael's backpack would have been insanely flimsy, not to mention the sword, and have a very short product life. Same for Ezekial's sculpt too, I could see the sword be extra delicate.

Spiney Norman
19-06-2015, 21:58
Has there been anything more on the wish-listed DA tactical squad? Is the generic tactical squad still missing from the DA section of the OLS?

My hope for a fully robed tact squad has been kindled ;)

SuperHappyTime
19-06-2015, 22:15
Has there been anything more on the wish-listed DA tactical squad? Is the generic tactical squad still missing from the DA section of the OLS?

My hope for a fully robed tact squad has been kindled ;)

When I saw they had DA/BA/SW shoulderpads came out, my hope reflects what I've seen from the AoS rumors

Beppo1234
20-06-2015, 00:01
would a DA dedicated tactical squad box even make sense, given that GW just released the 'upgrade' shoulder pad kits? One would think they would remove all chapter specific iconography from the generic marine kits forcing a double a dip purchase.

Spiney Norman
20-06-2015, 00:27
would a DA dedicated tactical squad box even make sense, given that GW just released the 'upgrade' shoulder pad kits? One would think they would remove all chapter specific iconography from the generic marine kits forcing a double a dip purchase.

Don't both BA and SW both have dedicated tactical squad packs? They both got the upgrade sprues, I think they're intended for customising things like command squads, sternguard, assault marines and devastators.

Beppo1234
20-06-2015, 01:15
Don't both BA and SW both have dedicated tactical squad packs? They both got the upgrade sprues, I think they're intended for customising things like command squads, sternguard, assault marines and devastators.

DAs have one too in Company Veteran Kit.

Zustiur
20-06-2015, 03:27
Also, if being the focus of the current starter set, getting an upgrade sprue, new Interrogator, a new codex and having a bunch of DA specific kits isn't enough confirmation that GW are serious about DA then I don't know what to tell you.
That's much better treatment than some armies get.
Name one.
What other faction still has metals for key models and got only one new model (That 3 totally serviceable models exist for) with its codex release?

Still, yes optimistic.

Sisters are still metal. Got 0 new models.
Grey knights got 0.
Necrons got 1.

That's 3 on equal or worse footing update-wise.
Sisters haven't had a book, Necrons and GKs have no metal models in their range. None of your examples work.

Really? You don't feel that not getting a proper book isn't worse treatment than Dark Angels? You don't see that no new models over several editions, no plastic and no regular codex isn't worse than getting a single new model and 160 pg book?
And I'm not sure what your definition of 'key models' is, but mine would not include special/unique characters. Key models to me means models that form a core of the army, like troops. i.e. Sisters.
I could even argue that certain tau models (kroot ox, hounds, vespid) are more 'key' than Azrael.
Don't forget that the librarian and master in the DV box make excellent plastic proxies for Ezekiel (ok, the sword is only one handed...) and Azrael.

I have to agree with dblaz3r on this one. There are plenty of things that have been released for DA that show GW care about them. Okay, those things may not have come in this exact release, but really, what could you expect?
There was a rumour that a DA tactical squad was created, but not being released yet. That's the only thing I can see as being withheld - given that finecast is dead.
Our characters not being redone in finecast is a good thing in my opinion. Regardless of my opinion on metal vs resin, not being recast in a material that GW is no longer using does not indicate any lack of interest on their part.

[/Off topic][/incredulous surprise at your viewpoint]

I'm trying very hard to be optimistic about this codex but there are a number of (as yet unsubstantiated) rumours surfacing that have me apprehensive. My biggest concerns will be around how ravenwing and deathwing are treated. I've got a horrible feeling that black knights will go up in points.

Lion El Jason
20-06-2015, 11:24
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit eh?
Maybe check where I said not even having a book is a whole lot worse, but Sisters at this point are half way to Squat-town. Its not the same at all.

The Deathwing Redemption force is basically the "Competitive" Deathwing list anyway so they should be ok-ish. The formation benefits will have to be good for making up for no objective secured (Which was key to them ever winning before) but Ravenwing can only benefit from formation rules.
If anything in the codex goes up in points GW will have proved they know nothing about this game.

Vaulkhar
20-06-2015, 11:26
I'm trying very hard to be optimistic about this codex but there are a number of (as yet unsubstantiated) rumours surfacing that have me apprehensive. My biggest concerns will be around how ravenwing and deathwing are treated. I've got a horrible feeling that black knights will go up in points.

Well, we'll find out in 7 days. Meanwhile there are at least 901 optimists because the limited edition of the codex had sold out by 11:22 BST. I snoozed and I lost.

Lion El Jason
20-06-2015, 13:08
Well, we'll find out in 7 days. Meanwhile there are at least 901 optimists because the limited edition of the codex had sold out by 11:22 BST. I snoozed and I lost.

I missed it too. I didn't think it'd sell out but then only 900 of these...

Freman Bloodglaive
20-06-2015, 13:26
Optimistic?

You're in the wrong part of town, pardner.

The Space Marine Codex is decent, so if GW manages to keep things together for two more weeks the Dark Angels will be decent as well. Or not. It depends on how the coin flips.

Spiney Norman
20-06-2015, 17:49
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit eh?
Maybe check where I said not even having a book is a whole lot worse, but Sisters at this point are half way to Squat-town. Its not the same at all.

The Deathwing Redemption force is basically the "Competitive" Deathwing list anyway so they should be ok-ish. The formation benefits will have to be good for making up for no objective secured (Which was key to them ever winning before) but Ravenwing can only benefit from formation rules.
If anything in the codex goes up in points GW will have proved they know nothing about this game.

So essentially "we're the worst-done-by army because any army that has it worse doesn't count"? I'm pretty sure that logic works for any army ;)

Herkamer63
21-06-2015, 13:58
if anyone hasn't checked faeit 212, i suggest to check it out right now, if nothing's been posted on here yet. leaked images with rules and people, under comments, with the codex. some of the stuff that was suggested on here made the cut. DWK with AP3 with smite being smasj and not one use, but only one attack. blacksword missiles S7 AP3. also, about the rift cannon stats: S10 AP2 blast, and with a certain roll, the shot gains vortex! if true, holy crap the fliers are scary. last big significant tidbit: a rule that fires overwatch at BS2 and another, wihich is a formation i think, that allows to fire at full BS during overwatch. same thing with this: very scary if true. optimistic someone asked? yes. i'd say very much so, but it's still in rumor form. from the reports coming out however, they're becoming more consistent.

Spiney Norman
21-06-2015, 15:12
if anyone hasn't checked faeit 212, i suggest to check it out right now, if nothing's been posted on here yet. leaked images with rules and people, under comments, with the codex. some of the stuff that was suggested on here made the cut. DWK with AP3 with smite being smasj and not one use, but only one attack. blacksword missiles S7 AP3. also, about the rift cannon stats: S10 AP2 blast, and with a certain roll, the shot gains vortex! if true, holy crap the fliers are scary. last big significant tidbit: a rule that fires overwatch at BS2 and another, wihich is a formation i think, that allows to fire at full BS during overwatch. same thing with this: very scary if true. optimistic someone asked? yes. i'd say very much so, but it's still in rumor form. from the reports coming out however, they're becoming more consistent.

The flyer formation looks very good as well, command benefits appear to be all three planes roll for reserve as one unit and so always come on together and when using the dark talon's stasis bomb it automatically hits with no scatter, also IF the enemy warlord is killed by the stasis bomb (unsaved wound forces an Int test which if failed results in removal as casualty) then you get D3 VP for slay the warlord rather than 1.

I've downloaded the sample of the digital interactive codex and that has a lot of info that can be mined, it does look like the Lions Blade detachment is the first 'decurion' style detachment which has no way of taking certain squads from the codex, the full tree presented in the icodex is the same as the one in WD so it looks like there is no way to take black Knights or RWCS in the Lions Blade detachment (which is uber weird). Grim resolve is stubborn and Overwatch at BS 2, the command benefits of Lions blade improve that to overwatch at full BS.

The relics are still pretty 'meh', the new one (eye of the unseen) is just as bad as the others (it gives fear and preferred enemy for 4x cost of a combi weapon), the shroud Of heroes (rules unchanged but now 1/5 of its former cost) and mace are probably the only ones actually worth their cost.

The three special standards have been ditched in favour of one 'sacred standard', which is pretty worthless all things considered, it's only noteworthy ability is to grant relentless, but since terminator and Ravenwing CS are already relentless it's only real application will be if PA command squads can now take heavy weapons (esp. Grav cannons), let's just say I'm not optimistic.

It also looks like the vengeance has not been fixed, the plasma storm battery still has the same profile as last time around with no mitigation for gets hot on burst mode. I just hope the points have gone down a little.

G8Keeper
21-06-2015, 16:27
Hey if the fliers got fixed im willing to call it a win, this being the optimism thread and all ;)

Spiney Norman
21-06-2015, 16:32
Hey if the fliers got fixed im willing to call it a win, this being the optimism thread and all ;)

Indeed, I really want to try the dark talon now, it's effectively a doom scythe with the bomb as an added extra, in fact I might have to buy enough to field the formation, it looks really good fun.

I've just had a quick look at the DWK weapons, the flail is the same except it has gained Fleshbane and lost bane of the traitor (the only weapon with this rule now is the relic weapon mace). The mace of absolution is now Ap3 as standard, smite mode is no longer once per game, but optional all the time, you may choose to trade all your attacks for a single, double strength ap2 attack, rather like the MC smash ability.

G8Keeper
21-06-2015, 16:33
That's pretty nifty then. Definitely inspiration to start painting up my DWK and flier!

Herkamer63
21-06-2015, 19:21
Indeed, I really want to try the dark talon now, it's effectively a doom scythe with the bomb as an added extra, in fact I might have to buy enough to field the formation, it looks really good fun.

I've just had a quick look at the DWK weapons, the flail is the same except it has gained Fleshbane and lost bane of the traitor (the only weapon with this rule now is the relic weapon mace). The mace of absolution is now Ap3 as standard, smite mode is no longer once per game, but optional all the time, you may choose to trade all your attacks for a single, double strength ap2 attack, rather like the MC smash ability.

For smite, do you think it's double user's S or the modified S? Also the flail sounds good. Fleshbane is always fun. Lastly, I'm surprised, and at the same time not, that bane of the traitor is only on the mace of redemption now. Of course the other maces got better better AP wise so it makes sense.

Spiney Norman
21-06-2015, 20:14
For smite, do you think it's double user's S or the modified S? Also the flail sounds good. Fleshbane is always fun. Lastly, I'm surprised, and at the same time not, that bane of the traitor is only on the mace of redemption now. Of course the other maces got better better AP wise so it makes sense.

Its double users strength, smite mode has its own profile, same as a power fist but limited to one Attack, similar to MC's smash Attack.

AngryAngel
21-06-2015, 22:10
Needless to say, really sad about the standard if it lost all real goodness. No sight of the power field generator ? If both are gone, they will have effectively tossed away the parts of the book I loved. As well, no Black knights in the formations ? No Ravenwing command squad ? Glad to see they they can still leave out of the formations one of the actual good units ( or the best new unit if you will ) from the last codex.

So to recap, marine codex, pretty much lost nothing only improved itself, and so far we're seeing some improvements but also some real loss with the best things from the last codex, snafu is all I can say. Assuming of course that is all true.

Spiney Norman
21-06-2015, 23:02
Needless to say, really sad about the standard if it lost all real goodness. No sight of the power field generator ? If both are gone, they will have effectively tossed away the parts of the book I loved. As well, no Black knights in the formations ? No Ravenwing command squad ? Glad to see they they can still leave out of the formations one of the actual good units ( or the best new unit if you will ) from the last codex.

So to recap, marine codex, pretty much lost nothing only improved itself, and so far we're seeing some improvements but also some real loss with the best things from the last codex, snafu is all I can say. Assuming of course that is all true.

Power field generator is not in the glossary, the conversion field is still there, the porta-rack also seems to be gone. With any luck there will be a ravenwing formation we haven't seen yet, it would suck beyond words if the only way to bring Black Knights/RWCS was in a CAD or unbound.

I'm a little gutted about losing the banner of devastation completely, it was refreshing to have a banner option for a command squad that wasn't completely useless, it looks like the only banner worth taking now will be the RW company standard, the super-HnR was always pretty handy when I tried it, but on the other hand if the RWCS is CAD only, that will likely see relatively little use as well.

Overall it looks like a significant improvement in many area, I just wish they wouldn't make all these ridiculous little screw ups, I mean what the hell is with leaving Black Knights out of the Lions Blade detachment?

EDIT: Rad grenades have been nerfed too, they no longer reduce toughness, the rad poisoning rule just means a target takes 2 wounds on a natural 6 to wound, roll to save vs each separately. No more IDing T4 targets with your plasma talons it seems :( stasis grenades still work the same so it's probably worth taking the grenade launcher.

There some nifty formation command bonuses, though I don't know which formation they connect with, there is a ravenwing one which allows you to Jink in T1 and still fire at full BS and a Deathwing one which gives units in the formation battle focus in the turn that they DS.

G8Keeper
22-06-2015, 08:30
Its also seems the vengeance has 3 HP and can be taken in attack squadrons as the land speeder choice, bonus!

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 08:51
Its also seems the vengeance has 3 HP and can be taken in attack squadrons as the land speeder choice, bonus!

Yeah, it looks like the Darkshroud has gained a HP as well. I'm a little unsure how the vengeance will shake out to be honest, the plasma storm battery has gained an extra 12" of range and according to rumours on Dakka it has dropped by 20pts so it might even be playable this time around. Not being TL was a bit of a blow so burst mode is still going to be a complete liability with gets hot.

Allegedly the Neph has dropped by 10pts as well, it's looking pretty good for my money now

Dakkadakka is also reporting that the stasis bomb forces a Int-test-or-die on a successful hit, which is incorrect, it forces the test on an unsaved wound, which is not at all the same thing.

G8Keeper
22-06-2015, 08:54
Well the stasis bomb is S10 Ap2 so not exactly the worst in the world :). I'm feeling very positive about the codex now, belial gets rerolls in challenges iirc and sammaels raven sword got better. I wonder if we have a lord of war?

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 09:03
Well the stasis bomb is S10 Ap2 so not exactly the worst in the world :). I'm feeling very positive about the codex now, belial gets rerolls in challenges iirc and sammaels raven sword got better. I wonder if we have a lord of war?

No it's not, that is the rift cannon, the stasis bomb is str 4, ap5, large blast

I would guess Azrael is a LoW based on what they've done with other marine codexes.

G8Keeper
22-06-2015, 09:25
My bad, small brain fart there. IMHO azrael needs beefing to warrant lord of war.

GrandmasterWang
22-06-2015, 10:32
My bad, small brain fart there. IMHO azrael needs beefing to warrant lord of war.

Azrael needs more Watcher presence to feel like a LOW imo.

For some reason nothing about him screams LOW in the same way that say Marneus does. I know he is the Supreme Master and all that but as a LOW im not feeling it.

Maybe if he got an epic new sculpt or something. I like the current sculpt but it's too 'understated' to be Lord of War.

Overall from a skim I feel the changes are very positive. I love deathwing knights and still have 5 Dark vengeance terminators to assemble. This release has me feeling inspired to shift my hobby focus towards bone coloured armor for the first time in a long time :)

I for some reason thought the Dark Angels were getting 2 plastic characters so I'm a bit bummed there. The new Chaplain is all we get right?


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 10:35
S10 Ap2 rift cannon had me sold on this codex if it turns out to be true. I've seen other pics, but haven't seen that.

Rumor I saw on FB and BoLs was that the all RW formation does contain BKs and can re-roll Jink saves and on the turn it arrives has no Snap-Shot penalty if they Turbo boost.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 11:07
S10 Ap2 rift cannon had me sold on this codex if it turns out to be true. I've seen other pics, but haven't seen that.

Rumor I saw on FB and BoLs was that the all RW formation does contain BKs and can re-roll Jink saves and on the turn it arrives has no Snap-Shot penalty if they Turbo boost.

That is pretty much confirmed at this point, it comes from the enhanced digital codex sample, and thats not all, St10 ap2, small blast. It also has a special rule called 'rift vortex', basically if you ever roll a double on the dice when determining scatter it gains the vortex rule (it essentially becomes a vortex grenade).

Your ravenwing also needs a little bit of a tweak

All Ravenwing units reroll jink saves all the time, this is not a formation command bonus it is the Ravenwing special rule, also according to the glossary of the icodex sample, there is a detachment with the following command benefit

"Speed of the Raven: During your first turn (or your second turn if the units of this detachment were placed in reserve), all units from this detachment that turbo-boost or move flat out count as jinking until your next turn. However, units from this detachment that do so can still fire their guns normally in your next turn; they do not have to fire snap shots."

There is also a formation bonus called "summon the deathwing" which effectively gives all models in the formation a 12" range teleport homer for DW models.

Unfortunately because of how the glossary works I can't see which command benefits apply to which formations, but I think it is safe to say there is a lot of very cool synergy between the DW and RW.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 11:10
Thanks for the update. Constant re-roll to Jink Saves seems like the unique buff to RW vs WS that we were all hoping for.

That DW bonus looks like it would work well with the Demi-Company given the number of models you should have on the table.

I had also seen somewhere someone claiming the new DW deepstrike is that you pick Turns 2-4 to guarantee to arrive.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 11:27
Thanks for the update. Constant re-roll to Jink Saves seems like the unique buff to RW vs WS that we were all hoping for.

That DW bonus looks like it would work well with the Demi-Company given the number of models you should have on the table.

I had also seen somewhere someone claiming the new DW deepstrike is that you pick Turns 2-4 to guarantee to arrive.

Yes, that is how DW assault works now, you write down at the start of the game which turn you want your DW to arrive (2-4) and all the units come in automatically on that turn with no need to roll. I actually quite like that, the only problem is it makes the reserve-manipulation warlord trait a little superfluous ;)

One of the DW formations has a command bonus that gives them eldar battle focus on the turn they DS, which is absolutely mint because it allows them to both spread out from their DS formation AND shoot on the turn they arrive.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 11:33
One of the DW formations has a command bonus that gives them eldar battle focus on the turn they DS, which is absolutely mint because it allows them to both spread out from their DS formation AND shoot on the turn they arrive.

:eek::eek::eek:

shabbadoo
22-06-2015, 11:58
Haven't seen this link here, so put on your dancing shoes and set aside a clean pair of underwear before you click. :D

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/06/21/rumor-it-dark-angel-leak-compilation/

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 12:19
Capture Bombing Run FTW!

Morrslieb
22-06-2015, 12:19
Int-Chaplain entry and Special Issue Wargear page gave me hope we can see company master with bike lisence. Some juicy goodness altogether. :p

Freman Bloodglaive
22-06-2015, 12:41
The Ravenwing banner allows all Dark Angels to reroll failed fear tests...

All Dark Angels have the rule And They Shall Know No Fear which means they don't take fear tests.

Typical GW.

Althenian Armourlost
22-06-2015, 12:49
One of the DW formations has a command bonus that gives them eldar battle focus on the turn they DS, which is absolutely mint because it allows them to both spread out from their DS formation AND shoot on the turn they arrive.

Aaah, so you like the Eldar toys now, eh? :p

Anyway, just checking:

Can Dark Angels librarians can have bikes, and telepathy discipline?
If so, we are going to have a very high chance of having ravenwing command squad deathstars with:


Invisibility (2/3 chance)
2+ re-rollable jink save (2/3 chance, full chance of a 3+ re-rollable jink due to skilled rider)
Feel no pain 5+
At least 2 characters for wound allocation shenanigans

That's going to be completely marvellous. Time to break out the scytheguard!

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 13:30
The three special standards have been ditched in favour of one 'sacred standard', which is pretty worthless all things considered, it's only noteworthy ability is to grant relentless, but since terminator and Ravenwing CS are already relentless it's only real application will be if PA command squads can now take heavy weapons (esp. Grav cannons), let's just say I'm not optimistic.


Erm... Rapid fire boltguns and assault with power weapons. Depending on their allowed options (Is it close to company vets?) this may be good.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 13:36
Hmm, one thing I've noticed.
All the Deathwing Formation rules seem to say "You must put all this formation in deepstrike"

If you have to DS then Deathwing are basically now defunkt as a viable army.

Ananiel
22-06-2015, 13:40
2 melta bombs off the old price for the Neph still seems steep for (+1S -1AP and twin linked) on the Blacksword missles. -6 Melta bombs might have been more appropriate......

Termie costs also have me blue. Why 5 pts more than vanilla?

Ananiel

Ananiel
22-06-2015, 13:44
Double Post :(

Karhedron
22-06-2015, 13:44
If you have to DS then Deathwing are basically now defunkt as a viable army.

How else do you plan to deliver your Deathwing to the enemy? Land Raider transports get expensive pretty quickly.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 13:51
Deep Strike is nature's way of gifting stuff for your opponent to kill.

Land Raiders and walking has always been optimal.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 14:01
Erm... Rapid fire boltguns and assault with power weapons. Depending on their allowed options (Is it close to company vets?) this may be good.

Ah yes, the terror of rapid firing boltguns... Perhaps switch them out for plasma guns and you might have a squad (albeit an expensive one) that can actually achieve something.


Hmm, one thing I've noticed.
All the Deathwing Formation rules seem to say "You must put all this formation in deepstrike"

If you have to DS then Deathwing are basically now defunkt as a viable army.

I don't think we know which command benefits go with which formations with any certainty yet, but I'm happy that a DW teleport force might be viable for a change.


2 melta bombs off the old price for the Neph still seems steep for (+1S -1AP and twin linked) on the Blacksword missles. -6 Melta bombs might have been more appropriate......

Termie costs also have me blue. Why 5 pts more than vanilla?

Ananiel

I'd guess because they are fearless, hate CSM and can mix weapon load outs freely in the squad, which generic SM terminators can't do. That is all clearly worth something, I'm just not sure its worth 5ppm, still its comparable with the pts difference between DW and regular termis last edition, and their synergy with the RWing definitely gives them an edge.

I've just noticed that somewhat bizarrely you can 'upgrade' one member of the DWCS to a DW sergeant, he gets to swap his power fist for a power sword for *free* for no change of profile, I mean who writes this junk???

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 14:02
The way of the future seems to be running multiple wings as opposed to just one solo (with the exception of RW, who it seems were given quite the boost!).

Looks like Mace of Redemption got nerfed, which is odd. It's essentially just a DWK weapon that you can give to an IC. It's not a bad option, but doesn't seem nearly as nice. Shroud is better since you can run the character in a unit. Hmmm, DWKs w/ Interrogator-Chappy in TDA w/ Shroud and Mace might not be a bad combo to load into a LRC.

Do we have any info on what the new Relic does? (Unseen, something or other; maybe a Librarian friendly item?)

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 14:11
The way of the future seems to be running multiple wings as opposed to just one solo (with the exception of RW, who it seems were given quite the boost!).

Looks like Mace of Redemption got nerfed, which is odd. It's essentially just a DWK weapon that you can give to an IC. It's not a bad option, but doesn't seem nearly as nice. Shroud is better since you can run the character in a unit. Hmmm, DWKs w/ Interrogator-Chappy in TDA w/ Shroud and Mace might not be a bad combo to load into a LRC.

Do we have any info on what the new Relic does? (Unseen, something or other; maybe a Librarian friendly item?)

The Unseen eye? Its a complete waste of space, it costs 8 meltabombs to give the bearer fear and preferred enemy

What don't you like about the mace (has it actually got worse, looks quite similar to me), its an ap3 power maul with +3 str that is ap1 vs CSM, that seems pretty good for its points cost. They obviously still haven't realise its better than the Monster slayer of Caliban at full power vs the majority of opponents.

Imo multiple wings has always been the best way to run DA if you ask me ;)

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 14:12
Ah yes, the terror of rapid firing boltguns... Perhaps switch them out for plasma guns and you might have a squad (albeit an expensive one) that can actually achieve something.

Yes, I meant rapid fire weapons in general. Good catch.




I don't think we know which command benefits go with which formations with any certainty yet, but I'm happy that a DW teleport force might be viable for a change.

I'd guess because they are fearless, hate CSM and can mix weapon load outs freely in the squad, which generic SM terminators can't do. That is all clearly worth something, I'm just not sure its worth 5ppm, still its comparable with the pts difference between DW and regular termis last edition, and their synergy with the RWing definitely gives them an edge.

I've just noticed that somewhat bizarrely you can 'upgrade' one member of the DWCS to a DW sergeant, he gets to swap his power fist for a power sword for *free* for no change of profile, I mean who writes this junk???

Deepstrike formations are not viable.

I'd say DWterminators should be 1 point more, if that.

I hope it means the Sgt can take weapons from the armoury, that would make it worth it.


Looks like Mace of Redemption got nerfed, which is odd.

The loss of blind is actually baffling. It was fine as it was!
Why is the DA codex the only one to get real nerfs with its update?


Do we have any info on what the new Relic does? (Unseen, something or other; maybe a Librarian friendly item?)

Its useless. Fear and prefered enemy.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 14:13
What don't you like about the mace (has it actually got worse, looks quite similar to me), its an ap3 power maul with +3 str that is ap1 vs CSM, that seems pretty good for its points cost. They obviously still haven't realise its better than the Monster slayer of Caliban at full power vs the majority of opponents.

It was nerfed to +2 Str, lost Blind and gained the crappy new smite.
It doesn't even have the AP vs chaos I think.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 14:16
The loss of blind is actually baffling. It was fine as it was!

Ummm "loss of blind"? Are we still talking about the Mace of Redemption here? It is S+3, Ap3, Bane of the Traitor, Blind, Concussive
It also doesn't have smite, are you sure you're not looking at the Mace of Absolution (DWK's weapon)?


Why is the DA codex the only one to get real nerfs with its update?


You must not've read the 7th Ed Dark Eldar codex...

Maybe having the word 'Dark' in your name is just GW code for 'victimise me' :D

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 14:19
Ummm "loss of blind"? Are we still talking about the Mace of Redemption here? It is S+3, Ap3, Bane of the Traitor, Blind, Concussive


I must have some bad rumours then, I think somewhere got it mixed up with the Knights regular weapons.



Maybe having the word 'Dark' in your name is just GW code for 'victimise me' :D

You know, your jokes are running all my attempts at DOOM Trolling? ;)

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 14:25
You know, your jokes are running all my attempts at DOOM Trolling? ;)

Well this is the Dark Angel Optimism thread :D

I honestly think this book looks pretty promising, I'd say given the massive boost the Dark Talon has had we're easily the equal of Codex marines (ignoring that stupid sky hammer formation). Though I think if you were hoping for something that could play in the Crondar league, you're going to be disappointed.

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2015, 14:43
I'm looking forward to vortex grenading things from the sky. I really hope that one's true. Looks like it's time to buy another DA flyer kit!

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 14:43
Wait, so Demi-Company can Overwatch on BS3 and Ravenwing Formation gives you a buff that if one of your units get's charged nearby Ravenwing units can Overwatch? Who stole my Tau codex and slipped it into my Dark Angels because I am forever grateful!

I misread the pic too and thought it was the Mace of Redemption :p

Bob Hunk
22-06-2015, 14:46
Hmm, one thing I've noticed.
All the Deathwing Formation rules seem to say "You must put all this formation in deepstrike"

If you have to DS then Deathwing are basically now defunkt as a viable army.

Yes I noticed this too. Since Deathwing Assault now takes place on turn 2 at the earliest, pure Deathwing armies will need to be a mix of the Redemption Force formation and CAD (or just CAD) to avoid an end of turn 1 auto-loss due to having no models on the table. But as you say, Land Raiders and walking have always been preferable anyway. :)

Sephillion
22-06-2015, 14:56
I’m glad it appears not all buffs are limited to formations. The rift cannon seems worthy of the illustration that seemed to oblierate enemies in the old codex (always thought the image looked neat, but the stats... not so much).

A bit sad about the loss of the banner. It was a great tool.

Grand Master Raziel
22-06-2015, 15:04
I'll miss the BoD too, but I always had trouble being happy with where to put it. The trouble was, it was of little benefit to any unit could actually carry it. RWCS have the plasma talons, so they didn't benefit. DWCS with storm bolters which for some bizarre reason also didn't benefit, and the Greenwing Command Squad was horribly static and vulnerable in the open. Plus, the banner made those Command Squads an even higher-priority target than they would otherwise be (and RWCSes should be a high-priority target in anybody's book). So, my disappointment is somewhat tempered.

Does seem odd though - GW releases a DA-specific transfer labels sheet with the three sacred standards, then takes away any reason to use any of them. Do their separate departments even talk to each other?

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 15:19
I'll miss the BoD too, but I always had trouble being happy with where to put it. The trouble was, it was of little benefit to any unit could actually carry it. RWCS have the plasma talons, so they didn't benefit. DWCS with storm bolters which for some bizarre reason also didn't benefit, and the Greenwing Command Squad was horribly static and vulnerable in the open. Plus, the banner made those Command Squads an even higher-priority target than they would otherwise be (and RWCSes should be a high-priority target in anybody's book). So, my disappointment is somewhat tempered.

Does seem odd though - GW releases a DA-specific transfer labels sheet with the three sacred standards, then takes away any reason to use any of them. Do their separate departments even talk to each other?

I don't like it, but I can see why they did, imagine if you had entire formations of Ravenwing bikes and Dark Talons in range of the SoD, one of them gets charged, all of them get to overwatch with their TL salvo 5 bolters hitting at BS4 because of the formation bonuses.

To be honest the SoD was always a little gimmicky, I just wish they hadn't made the generic sacred standard quite so useless as I doubt I'll be using a banner at all now unless it is the ravenwing company st.

toonboy78
22-06-2015, 15:22
not sure on the valididty of all of these

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/06/21/rumor-it-dark-angel-leak-compilation/

but one that stood out was the relic blade at AP1....

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 15:43
Yep, sorry to spoil the optimism but from the german codex pics, it looks like Deathwing is dead.

Any formation that allows pure DW forces you to Deepstrike (Read as: Forces you to lose the game) so sorry, its been a fun 17 years of Deathwing and a fun 27 years of Dark angels but it seems my army is no longer a part of 40k...

Herkamer63
22-06-2015, 15:47
not sure on the valididty of all of these

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/06/21/rumor-it-dark-angel-leak-compilation/

but one that stood out was the relic blade at AP1....

Everything sounds consistent from what came out, except the relic blade. I bet that's someone's shenanigans running a bit wild. Would be awesome, if it's true though.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 15:52
not sure on the valididty of all of these

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/06/21/rumor-it-dark-angel-leak-compilation/

but one that stood out was the relic blade at AP1....

Option for a Company Master? Not being specialist weapon obviously offsets it being unwieldy, combined with the Psychic Power that grants Rage to a Unit you could have a really nasty CC option.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 16:03
Yep, sorry to spoil the optimism but from the german codex pics, it looks like Deathwing is dead.

Any formation that allows pure DW forces you to Deepstrike (Read as: Forces you to lose the game) so sorry, its been a fun 17 years of Deathwing and a fun 27 years of Dark angels but it seems my army is no longer a part of 40k...

I'm not certain that is true, can't you just run the auxiliary formation from the Lions blade as your primary detachment? That lets you take all things deathwing, although its not ideal I guess given the limitations.

I'm a little unclear how this works, Land raiders can't deep strike can they? (Lets hope we don't get a repeat of the BA Deepstriking land raiders debacle), how exactly does the 'summoned to war' rule work on units in the formation that can't Deepstrike, (esp as the rule specifically mentions RWing bike units, which explicitly can't DS).

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 16:08
Even if its just that your terminators are forced to Deepstrike its unplayable.
As far as I can see pure DW is now gone, you simply cannot play them unless theres something we haven't seen.

Combine this with an effective points hike. Well I may have to re-invigorate my Ravenwing but that's going to be hundreds of pounds and just not really what I want to play.



can't you just run the auxiliary formation from the Lions blade as your primary detachment? That lets you take all things deathwing, although its not ideal I guess given the limitations.

Doesn't that force you to take green guys?

Eldarsif
22-06-2015, 16:12
I get the feeling GW is not too keen on people running pure wings.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 16:14
I get the feeling GW is not too keen on people running pure wings.

There's 2 formations, its not a deliberate choice, its that they have no clue how their game works.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 16:21
It seems odd though that they'd create a formation, advertise that it is an option for running a full DW, but then make it effectively unplayable unless you bring along some buddies. You'd think they'd have an option to DS Turn 1 or not have to DS at all.

We must truly be anti-Space puppies if we ALWAYS DS our Terminators and they never do :p

Russell's teapot
22-06-2015, 16:34
There's 2 formations, its not a deliberate choice, its that they have no clue how their game works.

That banging noise. Yeah, that's the last nail.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 17:19
Even if its just that your terminators are forced to Deepstrike its unplayable.
As far as I can see pure DW is now gone, you simply cannot play them unless theres something we haven't seen.

Combine this with an effective points hike. Well I may have to re-invigorate my Ravenwing but that's going to be hundreds of pounds and just not really what I want to play.




Doesn't that force you to take green guys?

Nope, the formation is
1 Belial/Company Master/Int. Chaplain/Librarian
2-5 DW squads
0-1 DWK
0-1 DWCS
0-1 Ven dred

The downside is they don't get Obsec unless they're part of a Lions blade detachment, which means you would need the Demi-company of green guys for that.

notts
22-06-2015, 17:24
Yep, sorry to spoil the optimism but from the german codex pics, it looks like Deathwing is dead.

Any formation that allows pure DW forces you to Deepstrike (Read as: Forces you to lose the game) so sorry, its been a fun 17 years of Deathwing and a fun 27 years of Dark angels but it seems my army is no longer a part of 40k...

can you explain, for a noob, why?

piece meal arrival, get shot to **** as you drop in?

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 17:36
can you explain, for a noob, why?

piece meal arrival, get shot to **** as you drop in?

No, Deathwing all arrive together, the problem is if you have no models on the table at the end of T1 you automatically lose the game, and if everything is arriving via Deepstrike from T2 onwards that is obviously a problem.

The only way to get around it is to bring ven dreds in drop pods and bring half of them down on T1 (drop pod assault rule), but then your entire game rests on your opponent not destroying the one or two Ven dreds and their drop pods that you can bring down in their first shoot phase. I don't know about you, but that's not odds I would want to play.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 17:36
Nope, the formation is
1 Belial/Company Master/Int. Chaplain/Librarian
2-5 DW squads
0-1 DWK
0-1 DWCS
0-1 Ven dred

The downside is they don't get Obsec unless they're part of a Lions blade detachment, which means you would need the Demi-company of green guys for that.

Don't you have to take a battle demi-company?

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 17:38
Don't you have to take a battle demi-company?

No, it's an independent formation as well (like every other similar formation has been), you just don't get the lions blade command bonus unless you are part of that formation.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 17:39
No, Deathwing all arrive together, the problem is if you have no models on the table at the end of T1 you automatically lose the game, and if everything is arriving via Deepstrike from T2 onwards that is obviously a problem.

The only way to get around it is to bring ven dreds in drop pods and bring half of them down on T1 (drop pod assault rule), but then your entire game rests on your opponent not destroying the one or two Ven dreds and their drop pods that you can bring down in their first shoot phase. I don't know about you, but that's not odds I would want to play.

Thats assuming the "All arrive together" rule doesn't apply to the drop pods.
And then you have an all deep strike army which is terrible anyway. Deep Strike is basically "I'll have 1 turn of shooting ONLY then destroy my army".
Its never been a good rule (Thats why they made Dark Angels teleport specialists to begin with, nobody in the studio wanted their own army to do it!).

An all DS army doesn't work unless they all don't scatter and can assault (This will never happen).

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 17:42
No, it's an independent formation as well (like every other similar formation has been), you just don't get the lions blade command bonus unless you are part of that formation.

The formation is the one that makes you all DS.

sturguard
22-06-2015, 17:51
Lion El Jason- well, Ill be happy to run my SW terminators/Dreads etc as a Deathwing company, it seems from the rumors there are plenty of perks, I'll take it anyday over codex Thunderwolves, count yourself lucky, remember this is a Dark Angels Optimism thread. I'm optimistic that many SW models sitting on my shelf now have a new lease on gaming life.

Spiney Norman
22-06-2015, 17:53
The formation is the one that makes you all DS.

There are two Deathwing formations, the Deathwing strike force and the Deathwing redemption force, are you telling me they both have the "summoned to war" rule? My German isn't so good...

If so that does suck quite badly... Personally I was always planning to field a Demi-company so it doesn't affect me too much.

I guess you could always use the first company detachment from the generic marine codex? Not exactly satisfactory I guess, but it might be the best way to field a terminator-only list.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 17:59
Lion El Jason- well, Ill be happy to run my SW terminators/Dreads etc as a Deathwing company, it seems from the rumors there are plenty of perks, I'll take it anyday over codex Thunderwolves, count yourself lucky, remember this is a Dark Angels Optimism thread. I'm optimistic that many SW models sitting on my shelf now have a new lease on gaming life.

I think you missed the point. As it stands the formation literally doesn't work unless you bring other formations and stuff. You can't even use it with one of the chapters GW actually likes!


There are two Deathwing formations, the Deathwing strike force and the Deathwing redemption force, are you telling me they both have the "summoned to war" rule? My German isn't so good...

No, its 2 totally different rules that both state they all must begin in Deepstrike reserve...
EDIT: Actually Zum Kampf Gerufen may well just be "Summoned to war" so yeah they both have that.


I guess you could always use the first company detachment from the generic marine codex? Not exactly satisfactory I guess, but it might be the best way to field a terminator-only list.

Never!

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 17:59
Thats assuming the "All arrive together" rule doesn't apply to the drop pods.
And then you have an all deep strike army which is terrible anyway. Deep Strike is basically "I'll have 1 turn of shooting ONLY then destroy my army".
Its never been a good rule (Thats why they made Dark Angels teleport specialists to begin with, nobody in the studio wanted their own army to do it!).

An all DS army doesn't work unless they all don't scatter and can assault (This will never happen).

I'm pretty sure the All Together Now rule does require the Dreads to come in with everyone else in the DW (Yah, I'm gonna have that Beatles song stuck in my head for the rest of the day). Least from the leak pics I thought that what I read.

Lion El Jason
22-06-2015, 18:04
Yah, I'm gonna have that Beatles song stuck in my head for the rest of the day.

Well now I have The Farms "All Together Now" in my head...

sturguard
22-06-2015, 18:37
I think you missed the point. As it stands the formation literally doesn't work unless you bring other formations and stuff. You can't even use it with one of the chapters GW actually likes!



No, its 2 totally different rules that both state they all must begin in Deepstrike reserve...
EDIT: Actually Zum Kampf Gerufen may well just be "Summoned to war" so yeah they both have that.



Never!

I'm not sure which Chapters GW likes, they certainly don't like SW compared to the SM treatment or what looks to be the DA treatment (Thunderwolves aside). That's why I say, I am more than happy to run my SW as the Dark Wolves and use all those terminators, Dreads, bikes and speeders I have. It looks like DA have some pretty strong rules, yes a few things might not have been buffed but more things have than haven't.

Russell's teapot
22-06-2015, 19:45
That's a bloody good point. Where the hell are my dark lions? I signed up for dark space marines on dark lions.

I feel cheated.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 20:28
That's a bloody good point. Where the hell are my dark lions? I signed up for dark space marines on dark lions.

I feel cheated.

Well since the future of all those High Elf White Lion Chariots is up in the air, I'm sure you could kit bash some.

AngryAngel
22-06-2015, 20:34
Thanks for the update. Constant re-roll to Jink Saves seems like the unique buff to RW vs WS that we were all hoping for.

That DW bonus looks like it would work well with the Demi-Company given the number of models you should have on the table.

I had also seen somewhere someone claiming the new DW deepstrike is that you pick Turns 2-4 to guarantee to arrive.

Yes, that is a good boost to durability of raven wing, some of those boosts seem quite good. However, I need to see the whole picture so we can see how many of these bonuses you can stack and see what it sizes up to.



Yes, that is how DW assault works now, you write down at the start of the game which turn you want your DW to arrive (2-4) and all the units come in automatically on that turn with no need to roll. I actually quite like that, the only problem is it makes the reserve-manipulation warlord trait a little superfluous ;)

One of the DW formations has a command bonus that gives them eldar battle focus on the turn they DS, which is absolutely mint because it allows them to both spread out from their DS formation AND shoot on the turn they arrive.

That is good, but they lost the twin link on deep strike, which may not feel like a hit, but when you take into account Terminator shooting isn't exactly very potent I think it comes out more as a lateral change, then a straight up positive one.


Erm... Rapid fire boltguns and assault with power weapons. Depending on their allowed options (Is it close to company vets?) this may be good.

Some grav guns in a command sqaud ? Sure, but the banner is much worse then it was. I see why they did it, as with the fire discipline thing it would just be over the top, doesn't mean it doesn't feel like a big blow to lose most all of the good things from the last book for the boons handed down, many of them I feel will end up being points prohibitive. Feels like special rule overload, but when you actually see how many you can fit into your standard list, it won't feel quite as potent as it sounds from all this info.


Hmm, one thing I've noticed.
All the Deathwing Formation rules seem to say "You must put all this formation in deepstrike"

If you have to DS then Deathwing are basically now defunkt as a viable army.

I think your right, pure deathwing are dead, now it is simply a joint wing life for the deathwing.


2 melta bombs off the old price for the Neph still seems steep for (+1S -1AP and twin linked) on the Blacksword missles. -6 Melta bombs might have been more appropriate......

Termie costs also have me blue. Why 5 pts more than vanilla?

Ananiel

DA don't get things for free, come on. Yes I'm not sold on the neph yet either, the model for me, is still too pricy ( Both cost and points) and the big weapon change for the avenger, didn't happen. I still think the vanilla dex flyers end up better. The dark talon, I'm unsure of, range is still very short for the 10 ap 2 blast, that weapon kind of works at cross purposes from the hurricane bolters, I don't generally like that in a vehicle. Though the change is good, still the better flyer of the two. I'm happy for any who had gotten the flyers last codex, but nothing changed enough to make me buy the expensive kits time around either.


How else do you plan to deliver your Deathwing to the enemy? Land Raider transports get expensive pretty quickly.

Well I do know a lot of deathwing players did enjoy being able to play their army pure, the fact it is gone is a big blow to some. Plenty did their best to make work with some deep strike, some on foot or in raiders.


There's 2 formations, its not a deliberate choice, its that they have no clue how their game works.

I think it less they don't know how the game works, and more this is how they feel deathwing, should have to work. Could also be too many chefs ruining the meal. Too many people working on the same book, and some things get in, some get taken out and you end up making it not like it was planned in the first place. So could be some miscommunication, could be they just feel that is how DW should play and that is that.


I'm not sure which Chapters GW likes, they certainly don't like SW compared to the SM treatment or what looks to be the DA treatment (Thunderwolves aside). That's why I say, I am more than happy to run my SW as the Dark Wolves and use all those terminators, Dreads, bikes and speeders I have. It looks like DA have some pretty strong rules, yes a few things might not have been buffed but more things have than haven't.

Looks like the uptick in rules, however I'm not going to make base judgement without seeing how many of them can be used in normal lists, taken as a whole it is a heady feeling of wonder, I think however we'll see limited use of some of these rules and some are very enemy dependent. Like overwatch at higher skill, sounds amazing, unless your opponent is going to shoot you to death anyways. Which is what most of the strong lists will be doing. So definitive improvement, but I'm not going to be pulled into fervor until it shows to be a potent mix of upgrades.

Most all the good aspects from last book were taken away, and this all was added, I think the DA will end up stronger but I feel the vanilla marine dex will be more consistent as its abilities are able to be controlled for use and a bit harder to take away.

Think of it, better overwatch only matters if assaulted, stubborn is still meh on marines. Re rolling jink cover saves, great and very good for the RW, however, it is only cover, and we could get 2+ cover saves last book but neither matters if you ignore cover, as we found out, and we lost the PFG which was the only way to survive ignores cover effects on those units. Landing and running and shooting, great, but term fire is meh in the first place and they removed the twin link on arrival rule, making those shots less trust worthy, so a lateral switch to me.

It is a better book, overall, but not a blanket buff, and proved me correct in that what was good, was taken away. Not the case for some of these buffed codex releases. Such as Eldar or vanilla marines.

Bun Bun
22-06-2015, 20:38
I have to say that I like the Dark Angels Demi-Company special rules. Objective Secured and Overwatch with BS3 is actually quite powerful when combined with And They Shall Know No Fear and Stubborn. The Dark Angels have almost become the masters of holding objectives as, even when charged, Tactical Marines are able to dish out a world of hurt.

Sephillion
22-06-2015, 20:39
No PFG confirmed? Wow, I don’t even… :(

I’m glad the book seems stronger overall… I’m miffed that we lost that too. I played my lists around the Standard of Devastation and the PFG.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 20:45
I will confess that I have always been more interested in a pure RW force, so the RW special rules and formation rules look like an upward tick. The Ability to re-roll those Jinks, particularly using the turn 1 (or first turn you arrive) to count as Jinking, Turbo boost, and still shoot at full BS seems very powerful. I'll be interested to see if by squadroning Land Speeders if they gain some buffs (looking at you LSV!) not that getting a pts reduction, 3 HP and a range extension didn't seriously help. Heck, run a Libby Conclave on bikes with one Diviniation Libby to get Prescience and just twin-link them that way!

I think the short range on the rift cannon for the DT isn't too prohibitive, given the speed of a flyer, it should be able to get into range fairly often. Whatever the case, GW clearly figured out no one was buying our flyers ;)

AngryAngel
22-06-2015, 20:48
For some armies, the higher BS over watch will be crippling, orks for example. I think your getting more bang for your buck from the vanilla battle doctrines and against the power lists, I don't see the over watch buff coming into use much. I could be wrong, just feels like a scissor lizard.

Bun Bun
22-06-2015, 21:12
The tactical objectives for the Dark Angels

Apprehend and Interrogate: Score 1 Victory Point at the end of your turn if at least one enemy character was slain in a challenge during your turn. If your opponent's Warlord was slain in a challenge during your turn, score D3 Victory Points instead.

Flawless Strategy: Score 1 Victory Point at the end of your turn if one or more friendly units with the Deathwing or Ravenwing special rule arrived from Reserve during your turn. If one or more friendly units with the Deathwing special rule used a teleport home to arrive by Deep Strike within 6" of a friendly unit with the Ravenwing special rule during your turn, score D3 Victory Points instead.

Let None Escape Your Gaze: Score 1 Victory Point at the end of your turn if you successfully manifested one or more psychic powers from the Interromancy discipline during your turn.

No Forgiveness: Score 1 Victory Point at the end of your turn if you completely destroyed one or more enemy units that were controlling an Objective Marker at the start of your turn.

Not One Step Backwards: When this Tactical Objective is generated, secretly choose either your next turn, next two turns, or next three turns; score 1, D3, or D3+3 Victory Points respectively if this Tactical Objective is still active at the end of the number of turns you choose. This objective is immediately discarded if any friendly unit fails a Morale Check. If the game ends before this Tactical Objective is achieved, no Victory Points are scored.

The Path of Redemption: Score 1 Victory Point at the end of your turn if, during your turn, a friendly unit with the Dark Angels Faction charged an enemy unit that, at the start if the Charge sub-phase, included more models than their own unit.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 21:20
Not One Step Backwards seems like a shoe-in if you run the Inner Circle formation to spread the Fearless around.

Ananiel
22-06-2015, 21:28
I just noticed that the lame old missile launcher for dreads in the BRB has Flakk Missiles w/o an upgrade cost. An AA choice we had all along that I never knew we had....

Ananiel <-- Dumb Ass

Bun Bun
22-06-2015, 21:34
Not One Step Backwards seems like a shoe-in if you run the Inner Circle formation to spread the Fearless around.

I thought that as well but you do not need to take the formation. If you take the Deathwing Strikeforce Detachment, which is filled to the brim with Fearless units, and you get that tactical objective, you are laughing all the way to the bank.

InstantKarma
22-06-2015, 21:42
I thought that as well but you do not need to take the formation. If you take the Deathwing Strikeforce Detachment, which is filled to the brim with Fearless units, and you get that tactical objective, you are laughing all the way to the bank.

True, but since there seems to be, at the very least, some skepticism on running the DW formations, I figured the Inner Circle formation might be one that would see more use.

I also like that I can easily add that Formation to my DV box sets with what I already have :D

Bun Bun
22-06-2015, 23:56
If I get Dark Angels I will probably stay away from Deathwing for the immediate future by getting a Lions Blade Decurion consisting a Battle Demi-Company, led by a Company Master, to act as the core of the force, a Librarian to provide psychic defense and a Silence Squadron in support to provide mobile anti-flyer and anti-tank firepower. The fact that the Ducurion formation gets Overwatch at full ballistic skill is not to be underestimated.

Zustiur
23-06-2015, 06:29
Do you have to use codex specific tactical objective cards or can you elect to use the generic cards instead?

Sent via Tapatalk 2

Morrslieb
23-06-2015, 08:41
Do you have to use codex specific tactical objective cards or can you elect to use the generic cards instead?

Sent via Tapatalk 2

No point having generic tactical objectives if you can't use them. I think it's same as generic warlord traits, you're free to choose.

Spiney Norman
23-06-2015, 08:47
Do you have to use codex specific tactical objective cards or can you elect to use the generic cards instead?

Sent via Tapatalk 2

It's entirely optional, on one level it has to be because all the army specific cards have been ltd edition, but anything that reduces the number of duplicates for 'capture objective x' cards in a deck is a good thing to me, the fact that armies can rack up multiple VPs just by sitting on the same objective for the entire game is one of the things I hate about MoW, I've actually wondered about combining multiple army specific decks to create a whole deck where there are no objective capture cards at all might be quite interesting.

shabbadoo
23-06-2015, 08:49
I just noticed that the lame old missile launcher for dreads in the BRB has Flakk Missiles w/o an upgrade cost. An AA choice we had all along that I never knew we had....

Ananiel <-- Dumb Ass
You missed the important bit which precedes the weapon stat lines:


All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles
as standard, and some have the option to upgrade to
include flakk missiles.

Do Dreadnoughts have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles in their unit entry? No, so it is an AA chance we did not have all along.

Freman Bloodglaive
23-06-2015, 10:10
So far these rumours have me scurrying towards the Clan Ruuakan for my bikes+terminators+dreadnoughts army, since they can take the dreadnought squadrons as heavy support as well as elite, leaving vacant elite slots for a couple of command squads, and can take the First Company Task Force to get fearless terminators five points cheaper than Deathwing.

InstantKarma
23-06-2015, 19:25
So are DW paying an extra 5 pts for Hatred: CSMs? Seems a bit steep unless their formations benefits make up for it.

Lion El Jason
23-06-2015, 19:57
So are DW paying an extra 5 pts for Hatred: CSMs? Seems a bit steep unless their formations benefits make up for it.

The 2 DW formations are basically the same and have terrible "Benefits"

Ananiel
23-06-2015, 19:58
Do Dreadnoughts have the option to upgrade to include flakk missiles in their unit entry? No, so it is an AA chance we did not have all along.

Well that's a damn shame as they were still marginal w/ the flakk missiles, now they are back to 'why??'

Ananiel <-- Double dumb ass ;)

Spiney Norman
23-06-2015, 19:59
So are DW paying an extra 5 pts for Hatred: CSMs? Seems a bit steep unless their formations benefits make up for it.

Their formations have some very good synergy with the Ravenwing, but as Mr Jason indicates, if you're wanting to run a Deathwing-only army that is looking decidedly shaky now.

Lion El Jason
23-06-2015, 22:08
The 5 points are also getting you split fire I think.

Seriqolm
24-06-2015, 01:17
Knock yourselves out! just scroll down.


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308624-dark-angels-rumors-update-codex-leaks-pg-28/page-28

Seriqolm
24-06-2015, 01:27
Ooooooooops

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 07:33
Ok, so Deathwing as a stand-alone army is not dead, but it's definitely in the Intensive Care.

The Deathwing Strike Force detachment does not specify that venerable dreads need to deploy with the rest of the detachment, so they can come in on the first turn.

You'll probably want to bring three, so two come in on the first turn, that means the enemy has to kill 4 models in one turn to win the game.

Silver lining on the mushroom cloud: you can stick locator beacons on the Drop pods...


But on the whole, it's quite clear that GW wants us to run combo-wing


What is much more annoying, is that characters on bikes don't gain the Ravenwing special rule, so it's completely pointless that the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment has 3 HQ slots, since there's only one HQ unit with the RW special rule...

herohammer
24-06-2015, 08:38
What is much more annoying, is that characters on bikes don't gain the Ravenwing special rule, so it's completely pointless that the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment has 3 HQ slots, since there's only one HQ unit with the RW special rule...

Yeah, ravening strike force is even more broken than death wing. In addition to the impossible to fill hq slots there is the question of what on earth happens if you want to take flyers in the detachment. Can you choose to have your flyers start on the table (codex trumping brb rules)? Or if you take any flyers does it force you to reserve everything in the detachment for turn 2?

Spiney Norman
24-06-2015, 08:38
Interesting that the leaked paper codex and iPad edition have very different profiles for the relic blade, I'm not sure either of them is as good as a power fist for the same cost.

All things considered I'd say it's better than I expected, but not as good as I'd hoped for, too many derpy screw-ups (Deathwing formations requiring DS and leaving black Knights & RWCS out of the Lions blade detachment). On the other hand I think we can hold our own with the ultramarine codex so that is at least something, the Lions blade looks much more flexible as a detachment than the Gladius, because we have many more options for smaller-size auxilliary formations.

OuroborosTriumphant
24-06-2015, 09:11
The 5 points are also getting you split fire I think.

Also Fearless and Vengeful Strike.

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 09:42
Yeah, ravening strike force is even more broken than death wing. In addition to the impossible to fill hq slots there is the question of what on earth happens if you want to take flyers in the detachment. Can you choose to have your flyers start on the table (codex trumping brb rules)? Or if you take any flyers does it force you to reserve everything in the detachment for turn 2?

I read it as the latter: If anything goes in reserve (either because it has to, or because you want it to), everything goes in reserve.

But what happens if you buy dedicated Land Raiders for DW squads in a DW strike force? They can't be placed in Deep Strike reserve (if only!). Are you allowed to deploy those right away? (which would make the whole detachment a lot more viable). Or can you simply not buy them? (which means that upgrade is basically only available if you're using a normal CAD).


If the imgur codex leak is correct, these are my thoughts:

Good:


Belial +1A
Sammael on Corvex can shoot both weapons
Sammael in Sableclaw gets 4+ Iron Halo save and vector-strike (but better)
Ezekiel's force sword lost two-handed rule
Greenwing got Grav weapons
Deathwing cheaper
Deathwing sergeants can take other weapons again
Normal Deathwing squads can take Pervidious relics
Mace of absolution got better (AP3 against everyone, option to make single power fist attack at normal Initiative)
Flail of the Unforgiven got fleshbane
Dreadnoughts now bought in units (of 1-3)
RW Attack bike squad returns
Nephilim got better (Missile lock, better missiles, -10 pts)
Dark Talon got better (strafing run, both weapons got a serious boost)
Black Knights slightly cheaper
Lion helm works in vehicles
We got the same `whole company formation' that Vanilla marines got (with free vehicles!)
Landspeeders bought as part of a Ravenwing Attack Squadron effectively got teleport homers, so a full-strength AS gives you four 24" bubbles where your terminators don't scatter. Combined with Take the Fight to the Enemy, Deep Striking terminators got a lot more viable as part of a combined force.
Possible to take a battleforged all-Ravenwing army without bringing Sammael (led by a sergeant)


Bad:

Belial lost Precision shots - In Warlord trait now
Company masters can no longer take Pervidious relics
No Ravenwing characters aside from Sammael, making the Ravenwing detachment a bit pointless
We lost the sacred standards
LS Vengeance is still pointless with a non-TL weapon
No longer possible to field an army completely in terminator armour
None of the detachments or formations have room for fortifications (Not even the Fortress of Redemption!)



On the whole, it really looks as if GW completely forgot about the `you lose if you don't have models on the table at the end of a turn' rule.

Karhedron
24-06-2015, 10:03
None of the detachments or formations have room for fortifications (Not even the Fortress of Redemption!)

To be fair, that is a "feature" of all the super-detachments from Decurion onwards. Whilst still annoying, it is hardly unique to Dark Angels.

OuroborosTriumphant
24-06-2015, 10:14
Belial lost Precision shots

It's now baked into his Warlord trait.

Eldarsif
24-06-2015, 10:14
Appears that if you take a Deathwing CAD you must take at least a formation of ravenwing bikes to support them. Fluffy, but annoying since I like pure DW.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2015, 10:17
To be fair, that is a "feature" of all the super-detachments from Decurion onwards. Whilst still annoying, it is hardly unique to Dark Angels.

But does it really matter? Can't you just add a fortification detachment from the SH assault book as a separate formation?

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 10:34
But does it really matter? Can't you just add a fortification detachment from the SH assault book as a separate formation?

As far as I can see, there's not fortification detachment in SHA.

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 14:29
What is much more annoying, is that characters on bikes don't gain the Ravenwing special rule, so it's completely pointless that the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment has 3 HQ slots, since there's only one HQ unit with the RW special rule...

That seems rather silly. I'd pay extra points for a bike mounted Libby/Chappy and have them gain the RW special rule. Seems like a player edit might be in order.

mashkeyboardgetusername
24-06-2015, 14:56
I suppose a ravenwing strike force containing fliers can take one of the ravenwing formations (well, not the flier one obviously) as well to have some models on the table at the end of the first turn. A slightly silly approach (especially as it means the army does not "strike as one") but feasible.

Still don't know what's up with the HQs though. I also don't like codexes that force you to take a named character to run a formation, it's a bit of a weird choice.

Nightfall Shimmer
24-06-2015, 15:26
Dreadnoughts gain their 'Chapter Tactics' now... And from the leaks that includes Dark Angels, which is... pointless? Or do Dreadnoughts take Ld Test and can fire Overwatch?

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 15:39
Walkers can fire overwatch, so yes, a Dreadnought gets the BS bonus from Grim Resolve, the demi-company or LBSF.

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 16:22
For the 'Hammer of the Lion' Formation, what do people think might be the ideal combonation? Also how do people interpret the model requirements? I couldn't tell if it means you have to take 1 of each (so 1 LR, 1 Pred, and 1 Rhino chasis tank) or if you can take any sort of combonation of those models, along with the Tech Marine. I had imagined 1 standard Land Raider and 2 Las-cannon Preds which would give you 4 twin-linked las-cannon shots and 4 regular las-cannon shots if stationary at BS5 with TH & MH special rules.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2015, 16:39
For the 'Hammer of the Lion' Formation, what do people think might be the ideal combonation? Also how do people interpret the model requirements? I couldn't tell if it means you have to take 1 of each (so 1 LR, 1 Pred, and 1 Rhino chasis tank) or if you can take any sort of combonation of those models, along with the Tech Marine. I had imagined 1 standard Land Raider and 2 Las-cannon Preds which would give you 4 twin-linked las-cannon shots and 4 regular las-cannon shots if stationary at BS5 with TH & MH special rules.

It looks to me like the hammer of Caliban formation has three components, all of which are required to field the formation,
Must have one techmarine
Must have one Landraider of whichever type
Must have one squadron composed of EITHER three Preds OR three whirlwinds OR three vindicators.

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 16:59
It looks to me like the hammer of Caliban formation has three components, all of which are required to field the formation,
Must have one techmarine
Must have one Landraider of whichever type
Must have one squadron composed of EITHER three Preds OR three whirlwinds OR three vindicators.

More expensive, but that makes more sense as a formation than what I was dreading which was you have to take 1 of each type of tank within those particular catagories. I just couldn't see how we could optimize taking 1 LR, 1 Pred, and 1 Whirlwind or Vidicator.

So the Squadron is 2-3 vehicles than, so my Tank/Monster killer idea would probably be legal. Maybe not ideal, but legal.

Haravikk
24-06-2015, 17:15
I'm going to be disappointed if we can no longer field a proper pure-Deathwing force (except presumably via Unbound) though if I can manage to do-so by taking some Scouts (which is what I currently do) then it shouldn't be a big deal.

My main hope for the new codex is to see the Ravenwing made competitive vs White Scars again, which seems to be the case. In fact, the Ravenwing sound like they're getting quite a few great new formations and other tweaks to play with, I just need to actually get some more models for once, or at least renovate my old bikes ;)


Walkers can fire overwatch, so yes, a Dreadnought gets the BS bonus from Grim Resolve, the demi-company or LBSF.
I don't suppose anyone knows if we're going to finally get access to Ironclad Dreadnoughts this time around? While better Overwatch is pretty nice on Assault Cannons, it could be awesome on a hurricane bolter…

AngryAngel
24-06-2015, 18:15
Interesting that the leaked paper codex and iPad edition have very different profiles for the relic blade, I'm not sure either of them is as good as a power fist for the same cost.

All things considered I'd say it's better than I expected, but not as good as I'd hoped for, too many derpy screw-ups (Deathwing formations requiring DS and leaving black Knights & RWCS out of the Lions blade detachment). On the other hand I think we can hold our own with the ultramarine codex so that is at least something, the Lions blade looks much more flexible as a detachment than the Gladius, because we have many more options for smaller-size auxilliary formations.

It looks more flexible but I think may end up less potent time will tell there. I would say this as well, it seems like this book, is rife with some derpy screw ups for a professional product, once again and this time I doubt we'll get any day 1 fixes. The detachments I can only feel were last minute inclusions with all the mis steps placed inside them. The Deathwing being almost DoA and all having to deep strike, the way the ravenwing makes you have to all have to start in reserves if you take a flyer and HQs it can't fill. It just feels like they weren't putting in much work in editing, once more and we can't expect any real Faq anytime soon.

We gained a good deal but we lost a fair chunk as well. Deathwing terms lost vengeful strike, which is big especially when now they must enter with deep strike. PFG, yes some will say that is a small loss, but when you take into account it was one of the best parts of the book, it feels much bigger. The loss of sacred standards, while I predicted it, it still sucks big time, even though I see why it was taken out. If techmarines are just a standard HQ choice now, they used to be slotless with another HQ choice, now if they use up spaces, that stinks, back to not being used.

Problems I have with the book, feels like they wanted to cram so much in, they missed out on some very key things. They didn't have any formations with black knights, which means if you wanted to add in any you need to run a CAD or Ravenwing detachment just to use them. Really, no formations with the best unit in the book from the last codex ? Stupid.

Some of the formations leave a big question mark, with those units left out. Forcing you to have to take a land speeder shroud or vengeance for a ravenwing support squad, really ? Stupid. The hammer of caliban, very pricey, I guess it fills something of a iron wing niche, but doesn't really synch with the other formations. There are other WTF moments for me, but just a couple more. New land speeders gained a HP, great. However, Sableclaw still stays at 2 hp for such an expensive, tooled up speeder, stupid.

I love the fact the book is stronger, finally people might not say, why not just run regular marines instead of DA if not fielding terms or bikes. They left alot out however, and nerfed things for no reason that could have stood to stay the same or still be included in the book. As well as glaring issues that would have been easy to fix in editing that show either lazy, sloppy effort, or little to no knowledge of their own games mechanics. An overall buff but leaves a bad taste in my mouth with some of the missed choices, nerfs and just lazy editing in general.


Also Fearless and Vengeful Strike.

They don't have vengeful strike, they gave that up for, reasons.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2015, 18:25
I'm going to be disappointed if we can no longer field a proper pure-Deathwing force (except presumably via Unbound) though if I can manage to do-so by taking some Scouts (which is what I currently do) then it shouldn't be a big deal.

My main hope for the new codex is to see the Ravenwing made competitive vs White Scars again, which seems to be the case. In fact, the Ravenwing sound like they're getting quite a few great new formations and other tweaks to play with, I just need to actually get some more models for once, or at least renovate my old bikes ;)


I don't suppose anyone knows if we're going to finally get access to Ironclad Dreadnoughts this time around? While better Overwatch is pretty nice on Assault Cannons, it could be awesome on a hurricane bolter…

Well if the ironclad is there is hasn't shown up on any of the leaks and it's not present on any of the formations, so my guess is no.

Beppo1234
24-06-2015, 18:38
so the attack squadron has disappeared as a unit, but still exists as a detachment/formation?

mashkeyboardgetusername
24-06-2015, 18:57
so the attack squadron has disappeared as a unit, but still exists as a detachment/formation?

Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but: attack bike squadron is still a unit in the book; ravenwing attack squadron (which can include an attack bike squad, incidentally) is a formation.

AngryAngel
24-06-2015, 18:57
Yes that is true, the Ravenwing attack squadron is a formation now.

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 19:08
Deathwing terms lost vengeful strike, which is big especially when now they must enter with deep strike.

Vengeful strike is still there. It's listed in the `Armour' section of the wargear list, any model with TDA has it.

Spiney Norman
24-06-2015, 19:23
Not sure exactly what you're referring to, but: attack bike squadron is still a unit in the book; ravenwing attack squadron (which can include an attack bike squad, incidentally) is a formation.

In the current codex there is no ravenwing bike unit entry, instead there is a ravenwing Attack squadron which contains up to 6 bikes, one attack bike and a land speeder as a single unit choice that has a special version of combat squad that allows the three components to act independently. That organisation has been replaced and the three elements now have their own separate unit entries that operate together in the RAS formation.

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 19:34
But they still have the combat-squad thingy, so nothing has changed, except that now all models (including the Speder) prevent teleport scatter, and they have a 12" range for that, instead of the old 6".

Beppo1234
24-06-2015, 19:42
cool, so nothing's really changed, just the route via which they are deployed. Having the teli homer on the speeder is sexy.

does the techmarine take up a slot now?

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 19:49
cool, so nothing's really changed, just the route via which they are deployed. Having the teli homer on the speeder is sexy.

They also have a pseudo-marker light formation bonus where any enemy unit hit by the shooting of one of the units in the formation grants a +1 BS bonus if the rest of the units in the formation if they choose to target the same enemy unit.

So LS Typhoon fires ze missiles at an enemy vehicle and manages to score a hit, your AB with multi-melta and your two melta-gun bikers nearby can shoot that same vehicle at BS5. I think that makes this a very attractive supportive formation for the Demi-Company or if you're gonna run dual RW/DW formations.

Flipmode
24-06-2015, 19:58
How do you normally deploy fliers?

Beppo1234
24-06-2015, 19:59
They also have a pseudo-marker light formation bonus where any enemy unit hit by the shooting of one of the units in the formation grants a +1 BS bonus if the rest of the units in the formation if they choose to target the same enemy unit.

So LS Typhoon fires ze missiles at an enemy vehicle and manages to score a hit, your AB with multi-melta and your two melta-gun bikers nearby can shoot that same vehicle at BS5. I think that makes this a very attractive supportive formation for the Demi-Company or if you're gonna run dual RW/DW formations.

I'm trying to figure out if I have to change anything in my existing army to conform to the new reality? This was my old list:

HQ1) Company Master, Company Command Squad, Techmarine + Servitor (9) DemiC
HQ2) Deathwing Master Belial, Deathwing Command Squad + Landraider Crusader (6) DW formation

Elite1) Deathwing Dreadnought (1) DW formation
Elite2) Company Dreadnought (1) DemiC
Elite3) Deathwing Knights (5) Deathwing formation

Troops1) Scout Sniper Squad (6) CAD
Troops2) Scout Sniper Squad (9) CAD
Troops3) Tactical Squad + Rhino (10) DemiC
Troops4) Tactical Squad + Rhino (10) DemiC
Troops5) Deathwing Terminator Squad (7) Deathwing formation
Troops6) Deathwing Terminator Squad (6) Deathwing formation

FastAttack1) Assault Squad (10) DemiC
FastAttack2) Ravenwing Attack Squadron (10) it's own Attack Squadron Formation or into the Ravenwing formation
FastAttack3) Ravenwing Attack Squadron (10) it's own Attack Squadron Formation or into the Ravenwing formation

HeavySupport1) Devastator Squad (10) if one of these devastator squads becomes a tactical squad, then I've got a demiC
HeavySupport2) Devastator Squad (10) DemiC
HeavySupport3) Free Slot! One of my Rhinos might become a whirlwind

Formation1) The Interrogation, Reclusium Command Squad (6)
Formation2) Ezekiel's Librarius Conclave (4)

LordofWar) Thunderhawk Gunship


That which does not fit into the Battle-Forged CAD. 11 models:

1)Azreal Deathwing Formation
2)Sammael Ravenwing Formation
3)Interrogator Chaplain on Bike CAD with scouts
4)Ravenwing Command Squad (3) Ravenwing Formation
5)Ravenwing Landspeeder Support Squadron (3) Ravenwing Formation
6)Thunderhawk Gunship2
7)Nephilim Jetfighter Ravenwing formation

But with all the formation madness this should all be deploy-able in a single legal army with the DW formation, the Ravenwing Formation, a Demi Company and a bear minimum CAD, leaving me lots of room for expansion if the desire strikes. It looks like what I need is some predators and two more stand-ins for nephilim/darktalon!

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 20:19
Yah I think the only thing you missed in the list was an HQ for the CAD Scouts (unless someone else sees something I missed). But you then listed the IChappy on Bike for the CAD so you look pretty solid as far as being Battleforged.

The LS Support Squadron can operate as it's own Formation, and also has a pseudo-Tau like benefit, since it can Overwatch into an enemy unit within 24' that is charging another unit with the RW special rule. As some have pointed out though, it takes 2 regular LSs and then either 1 LSV or 1 LSDS, but I think the LSDS isn't as much of a problem to add in, since it will buff the other LSs Jink saves if they need to, and they can re-roll those too (+3 re-rollable? Better than a flat +2 by just a hair).

So in otherwords we know Vetock must have had something remotely related to our new Dex, just as he did the 6th ed one, since he also was the author of the 6th ed Tau codex, and suddenly our latest dex has Tau like benefits in the formations :p

Beppo1234
24-06-2015, 20:40
cool, I'm more worried about storage space in my carry case actually. But it looks like it all fits physically, once I get the devastator squad downgraded (it's an older metal one which I was planning on changing to plastic anyways, saves me $$$ now that I only have to add some bolter arms to 3 of them and redo their right shoulder pads). I could also drop the Techmarine into the CAD because it looks like they're no longer non-slot HQs.

Nice that all I'm really missing to get the Lion's Blade is 6 vehicles, which wouldn't go in a carry case anyways. I still refuse to buy the larger speeder (unless someone can show me a good way to convert the kit), just because it's ugly, same with the nephilim (and my use of a VLightningII as a stand-in makes the silence squadron a little bit too expensive)

AngryAngel
24-06-2015, 21:25
Vengeful strike is still there. It's listed in the `Armour' section of the wargear list, any model with TDA has it.

Ah I see that now, glad I was wrong with that, however it seems a bit confussing to have the rule placed in with the armor entry and entirely not seen on the unit entry. As if somehow the armor allows the twin linking as opposed to the units training, seems odd.


cool, so nothing's really changed, just the route via which they are deployed. Having the teli homer on the speeder is sexy.

does the techmarine take up a slot now?

From what I see the techmarine takes up a slot now. If fielded like that, the RAS doesn't take up a slot, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. Also, you seemingly can field either a Ravenwing bike squad, or a Ravenwing attack bike squad, so there is some change there.

Edit: Yes you can add the attack bike to the bike squad, damn that devil in these details.

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 21:31
Yah, as awesome as the Formation benefits for the Silence squadron seem to be, I know I won't be running one of those anytime soon unless I can pick up the models at a steep discount.

The RWAS Formation does include an Attack Bike though. Least I could have sworn I saw it listed. Computer at work is using an old browser so I can't view the pics of the codex. Then the Attack Bike Squadron is also it's own small Formation to boot!

Itsacon
24-06-2015, 21:31
You can still bring an Attack bike in a bike squad, so if you don't want the LS, just bring the bike squad, not the formation. They still have normal teleport homers too.

Grand Master Raziel
24-06-2015, 21:44
On the other hand, Attack Bike Squadron seems to imply more than one Attack Bike. So, while one may not be able to have the ABs running around singly to maximize the benefit, one could run an AB squadron of, I expect, 1-3 ABs with a LS spotting for them, so to speak.

If you think about it, the Ravenwing Attack Squadron has always been a formation. It was just a formation conferring no command benefits.

Plus, I'll be very surprised if buying a bike doesn't confer the Ravenwing rule to the character buying it. If it isn't in the book, and isn't FAQed pretty rapidly, I expect people/tourneys will house rule it, as having a Ravenwing formation with multiple HQ slots that can only be filled by Ravenwing characters would strongly suggest the intent was for bikes to confer that rule.

Beppo1234
24-06-2015, 21:45
You don't get the bike squad and the 1 attack bike in the formation anymore.

I think you can still upgrade the bike squad with a single attack bike.

so I think I only have 10 shoulder squad mark shoulder pads and three troopers to do to get re-aligned to the current book. That's not too bad. They've done worse in the past.

hopefully the errata the ravenwing formation rules to allow the HQs to be used up. Or if having the Deathwing special rule kind of counts you as already having the Ravenwing rule... Circles within circles bla bla.

InstantKarma
24-06-2015, 21:52
If you think about it, the Ravenwing Attack Squadron has always been a formation. It was just a formation conferring no command benefits.

Plus, I'll be very surprised if buying a bike doesn't confer the Ravenwing rule to the character buying it. If it isn't in the book, and isn't FAQed pretty rapidly, I expect people/tourneys will house rule it, as having a Ravenwing formation with multiple HQ slots that can only be filled by Ravenwing characters would strongly suggest the intent was for bikes to confer that rule.

+1 to this.

Beppo1234
25-06-2015, 03:14
scrutinizing the armory pages doesn't reveal anything special under the bike entry concerning the ravenwing special rule

GrandmasterWang
25-06-2015, 05:23
So what's the verdict on Deathwing Knights?

Buffed? Will they see use?

Nephilim. .. at a glance the thing looks decent now. Have they 'fixed' it suitably now?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Losing Command
25-06-2015, 05:52
It looks like DWK are less bad when not using smite mode, and nerfed a little when using smite mode. The models look cool enough for people to field them anyway.

Nephilim is no longer a complete waste of points, but Str 7 one use missiles still aren't that amazing. A stormtalon can get a weapon that has 3 Str 7 shots each turn, not with AP 3 but that doesn't matter when shooting vehicles. The stormtalon does have one less HP but is a whole is 55 pnts cheaper.

Freman Bloodglaive
25-06-2015, 05:53
Deathwing Knights are still good. Their new smite mode is slightly less powerful, but you can use it more than once which at the very least saves on book keeping. Take the strength 6, AP3 against normal enemies, and the strength 8, AP2 against 2+ armour, vehicles, walkers, and monstrous creatures with a 2+ save or toughness >7. By my reckoning wounding on 5s with two or three attacks does more damage than wounding on 4s with one.

MajorWesJanson
25-06-2015, 05:58
I am planning on grabbing another nephilim and a Dark Talon to run a capture squadron alongside my Iron Hands marines. I like the look of them, and they are a lot meaner than they were. Just a pain to scrape off all the DA junk that coats the model.

Grand Master Raziel
25-06-2015, 06:16
I'm not so sure about the Capture squadron. The Dark Talon's weapons don't really mesh well with the Nephilim's. The Nephilim is anti-flyer/vehicle/monster (and doesn't suck at it now, though the heavy bolters are still kind of useless), and the Dark Talon is primarily anti-infantry. Putting them together so they have to shoot at the same target...meh.

One thing still kind of bugs me about the blacksword missiles - why would the DAs use them if the superior stormstrikes are available? Now if they were S7 AP2, there'd at least be a reason.

That said, the AP3 could matter hunting monsters. A lot of MCs have 3+ saves.

Itsacon
25-06-2015, 06:24
One thing still kind of bugs me about the blacksword missiles - why would the DAs use them if the superior stormstrikes are available?

Because they leave cool black trails?

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 07:15
I'm not so sure about the Capture squadron. The Dark Talon's weapons don't really mesh well with the Nephilim's. The Nephilim is anti-flyer/vehicle/monster (and doesn't suck at it now, though the heavy bolters are still kind of useless), and the Dark Talon is primarily anti-infantry. Putting them together so they have to shoot at the same target...meh.

One thing still kind of bugs me about the blacksword missiles - why would the DAs use them if the superior stormstrikes are available? Now if they were S7 AP2, there'd at least be a reason.

That said, the AP3 could matter hunting monsters. A lot of MCs have 3+ saves.

We were asking the same question of Blacksword missiles last edition but comparing them to basic flak missiles, at least they are slightly better than that. The Neph just about breaks even this time I think, compared to the storm talon it gains 1HP, rerolls to its jink, missile lock, strafing run, unrelenting hunter and a pair of heavy bolters, I'd say that's ok, limiting to six missile is a bit of a pain, but in all honesty I'm not sure I'd need to shoot them more than a couple of turns anyway, and the ap3 does make them more versatile for shooting at Taloi/Tyranid MCs/Wraithguard if there are no flyers around. I'd say the cost looks ok tbh.

What makes you think the dark talon has to shoot at the same target as the two Nephilim in the silence squadron? All the units of a formation still act independently, nothing requires them to target the same unit.

MajorWesJanson
25-06-2015, 08:25
Storm Talon has Strafing run as well.
Unrelenting Hunter is actually a nice boost against fliers, actually. Instead of destroying a weapon (say one of the 3 lascannons on a vendetta) you can make it an immobilized result and force a crash and burn test. Not as strong as straight up stormstrikes, missile lock means they are twin linked. And it has 6 of them, so instead of rippling them all off turn one at a single target like a razorwing or storm raven, you can easily fire 3 and the nose gun at one target, then do the same next turn to a second target.

Like the SM codex, I want to see what FW does to integrate their models into the formations. Imagine Hammer of Caliban that allowed a Land Raider Helios + 3 Whirlwinds, or a Land Raider Ares with 3 vindicators.

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 12:30
Storm Talon has Strafing run as well.
Unrelenting Hunter is actually a nice boost against fliers, actually. Instead of destroying a weapon (say one of the 3 lascannons on a vendetta) you can make it an immobilized result and force a crash and burn test. Not as strong as straight up stormstrikes, missile lock means they are twin linked. And it has 6 of them, so instead of rippling them all off turn one at a single target like a razorwing or storm raven, you can easily fire 3 and the nose gun at one target, then do the same next turn to a second target.

Like the SM codex, I want to see what FW does to integrate their models into the formations. Imagine Hammer of Caliban that allowed a Land Raider Helios + 3 Whirlwinds, or a Land Raider Ares with 3 vindicators.

Good luck with that, I'm still waiting for them to work the IA 12 stuff into the decurion, let's just say I won't be holding my breath

Itsacon
25-06-2015, 13:07
Speaking of forgeworld: Will a FW dread (mortis pattern, siege, or a contemptor) be a valid choice for a demi-company?

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 13:26
Speaking of forgeworld: Will a FW dread (mortis pattern, siege, or a contemptor) be a valid choice for a demi-company?

Not presently, I think the more important question is whether FW will errata their dreads with the new 4 Attack statline, I'm modeately hopeful there because FW have always cared somewhat more about the playability of their rules than GW main.

Beppo1234
25-06-2015, 15:12
I think the inclusion of Namaan could have been a cool way to get HQs into formations that lack them. Make him a deathwing/ravenwing veteran who is master of the 10th company. He could have specialized as a 'scout' HQ that works in congress with both RW and DW.

Itsacon
25-06-2015, 15:19
Naaman died in the Storm of Vengeance campaign. Since he was a mere veteran scout sergeant, he never was inducted into any of the other companies, nor did he become master of the scout company.

But it's a bit sad he never got any love after 3rd edition.

Something like:
Replaces a scout sergeant
Wargear: chainsword, bolt pistol, auspex. May swap one weapon with a sniper rifle or boltgun at no extra cost.
Special rules: Preferred enemy (Orks). Naaman and squad he's with gain the Interceptor SR

Give him a small stat increase over a normal veteran sergeant and you're done.

Althenian Armourlost
25-06-2015, 15:53
I would love to have the craftworld warhost updated to reflect the Eldar additions. Perhaps in a future IA. I doubt it will be any time soon though, they are too busy making bank with the heresy stuff.

Beppo1234
25-06-2015, 16:12
Naaman died in the Storm of Vengeance campaign. Since he was a mere veteran scout sergeant, he never was inducted into any of the other companies, nor did he become master of the scout company.

But it's a bit sad he never got any love after 3rd edition.

Something like:
Replaces a scout sergeant
Wargear: chainsword, bolt pistol, auspex. May swap one weapon with a sniper rifle or boltgun at no extra cost.
Special rules: Preferred enemy (Orks). Naaman and squad he's with gain the Interceptor SR

Give him a small stat increase over a normal veteran sergeant and you're done.

more rework the character to be a member of the DW who has elected to chill with scouts in order to further the hunt for the fallen and keep the scouts from stumbling into secrets beyond their pay grade.

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 16:16
more rework the character to be a member of the DW who has elected to chill with scouts in order to further the hunt for the fallen and keep the scouts from stumbling into secrets beyond their pay grade.

Isn't that called an Interrogator-Chaplain?

The biggest problem with bringing Namaan back is they'd have to make a model for him

Lion El Jason
25-06-2015, 16:32
Isn't that called an Interrogator-Chaplain?

The biggest problem with bringing Namaan back is they'd have to make a model for him

I'm sure we'd have been left with the old metal midgit.

itcamefromthedeep
25-06-2015, 17:00
I'm looking at a CAD with a Deathwing librarian in a fat Deathwing unit to make it through turn 1 that starts on the board (plus some Scouts) and then a Deathwing formation for the rest of the army. Less than ideal.

Nightfall Shimmer
25-06-2015, 18:19
What about Landraiders bought as Dedicated Transports? Can they be deployed as normal, or do they get held in reserve and have to be rolled for to roll onto the table starting turn 2?

InstantKarma
25-06-2015, 18:21
I'm not so sure about the Capture squadron. The Dark Talon's weapons don't really mesh well with the Nephilim's. The Nephilim is anti-flyer/vehicle/monster (and doesn't suck at it now, though the heavy bolters are still kind of useless), and the Dark Talon is primarily anti-infantry. Putting them together so they have to shoot at the same target...meh.

One thing still kind of bugs me about the blacksword missiles - why would the DAs use them if the superior stormstrikes are available? Now if they were S7 AP2, there'd at least be a reason.

That said, the AP3 could matter hunting monsters. A lot of MCs have 3+ saves.

The Nephilim has gotten what looks like the treatment it needs. Regaining Missile lock along with the S7 means it can truly be the anti-air fighter it was supposed to be, as well as go after ground targets in a pinch thanks to Straffing Run. AP2 or not, it at least now stands a chance against AV12 flyers now. Having a re-rollable Jink save, and 6 missiles means it keeps the skies clear for the Dark Talons to make ground attacks or bombing runs with less fear of being shot down by enemy flyers.

As I think Spiney said, the formation does not require them to all fire at the same target. They are not a vehicle squadron, so the mixed load out of weapons isn't an issue.


What about Landraiders bought as Dedicated Transports? Can they be deployed as normal, or do they get held in reserve and have to be rolled for to roll onto the table starting turn 2?

I believe Bolter & Chainsword are already working on collecting questions to spam to GW, and this was one of them. Might behove anyone who is a visiter of both Warseer and B&C to check and see if there are any other questions to add to the list they are collecting.

But we all really know that we want the return of 5th ed Deep Striking Land Raiders, just for DAs and not BAs:p

AngryAngel
25-06-2015, 19:43
We were asking the same question of Blacksword missiles last edition but comparing them to basic flak missiles, at least they are slightly better than that. The Neph just about breaks even this time I think, compared to the storm talon it gains 1HP, rerolls to its jink, missile lock, strafing run, unrelenting hunter and a pair of heavy bolters, I'd say that's ok, limiting to six missile is a bit of a pain, but in all honesty I'm not sure I'd need to shoot them more than a couple of turns anyway, and the ap3 does make them more versatile for shooting at Taloi/Tyranid MCs/Wraithguard if there are no flyers around. I'd say the cost looks ok tbh.

What makes you think the dark talon has to shoot at the same target as the two Nephilim in the silence squadron? All the units of a formation still act independently, nothing requires them to target the same unit.

The neph is much better then it was ( Didn't take much however as before it was awful ) I tend to think storm talon and neph compare well to each other, the biggest bonus from one to the other being the re roll for jink cover save which is pretty good for the neph. You have, for sustained fire power a better weapon load out on the storm talon, in my opinion. The storm talon is also cheaper, and if I had to pick dark talon or storm raven as a pairing flyer, I'd pick the storm raven as I like flying transports, think they add a nice versatility to a list.

The missiles got much better, which we all asked for, it carries a good amount of them and with missile lock making them twin linked that is great. Storm talon doesn't have missiles that are single shot but can keep shooting round after round, to me that is a wash.

Now the part where the neph does come off much better is the durability count, with 3 hps over 2 and re rolled jink saves. Un relenting hunter is also good for anti flyer duty, as was mentioned before.

The twink linked heavy bolter is sort of meh and I'm not really factoring that into the comparison. Now, the cost is a difference with the storm talon coming in around 50 so point less then the neph, there abouts. So it has similar fire power, it is a matter for debate but that is my view on it. The neph is tougher while flying and has the additional HP. The storm talon can move faster while flying, and can hover, which can be good for staying on the board and picking good targets longer. It also has a better jink save while hovering with a +1 to its cover save while jinking. The talon also has the ceramite plating, which is helpful. They both have strafing run, neph has un relenting hunter.

I'd give slight edge to neph.

I think it shakes out well for the neph now, it compares well to the storm talon and isn't an auto exclude option and you can take one or two with pride, at last.

Hoser111
25-06-2015, 22:22
Still haven't seen anything about Deathwing or Ravenwing getting Objective Secured in any detachment or formation. If that is the case is there any reason to take a Deathwing terminator squad over a Deathwing Command squad? Same cost, bot Elites choices. I would love to pay 5 pts per squad to give everything FNP. Also I'm wondering if any other faction can take terminator command squads? our regular command squad gives every member access to the ranged weapons (combi's) and I wondered if there was any precedent of terminator (veterans) getting the same treatment. combi meltas on a command squad re-rolling misses on the turn it deep strikes with split-fire seems like it would save Deathwing in my mind

Spiney Norman
25-06-2015, 22:30
Still haven't seen anything about Deathwing or Ravenwing getting Objective Secured in any detachment or formation. If that is the case is there any reason to take a Deathwing terminator squad over a Deathwing Command squad? Same cost, bot Elites choices. I would love to pay 5 pts per squad to give everything FNP. Also I'm wondering if any other faction can take terminator command squads? our regular command squad gives every member access to the ranged weapons (combi's) and I wondered if there was any precedent of terminator (veterans) getting the same treatment. combi meltas on a command squad re-rolling misses on the turn it deep strikes with split-fire seems like it would save Deathwing in my mind

The Deathwing champion upgrade is a steal at 5pts too, to my knowledge no-one else can have terminator command squads (grey knights?). I'll be using DWTS because I'll be using the Lions Blade detachment, but if you're using a CAD I can't see any more reason to take a DW squad over the DWCS than I can a company vet squad over a regular CS, or a BK squad over a RWCS sadly, the only advantage in all three cases is the ability to add more bodies in the regular squad.

Voss
26-06-2015, 00:08
Plus, I'll be very surprised if buying a bike doesn't confer the Ravenwing rule to the character buying it. If it isn't in the book, and isn't FAQed pretty rapidly, I expect people/tourneys will house rule it, as having a Ravenwing formation with multiple HQ slots that can only be filled by Ravenwing characters would strongly suggest the intent was for bikes to confer that rule.
I don't see this happening at all. At least not for chaplains, librarians and anything but a generic company master (and even that is doubtful since Sammy is CM). The way the chapter organization breaks down, there are no characters that are part of the Ravenwing other than Sammy. There just isn't any way for any character to be part of the Ravenwing. It would be one thing if SM had some rank other than Chapter Master, Captain (Company Master) and Sergeant, but as is SM seriously have a command structure that dictates a grand total of 11 'commissioned officers' and 100-120ish* NCOs for 1000 men. Plus however psykers and zealous preachers fit into a command structure, which is sort of jammed onto the Chapter Master rather than the companies.

*3-5 man squads for bikes, terminators and etc

Spiney Norman
26-06-2015, 01:18
Is there no company chaplain for the Ravenwing like the battle companies have?

Voss
26-06-2015, 01:36
They can be 'assigned' to a battle company, but organizationally, all chaplains are part of the Reclusiam (and/or, for senior members, part of the Chapter Command with other 'higher rank' members of the Inner Circle).


If you check the handy chart (its a pop out on page 23 of the iBook version, not sure on paper version, but alongside 'company support,' it seems fairly clear. And the Inner Circle overrides a lot of stuff anyway, and all chaplains are inherently members (or never seen again).

AngryAngel
26-06-2015, 02:34
It used to be all Int Chaplains were part of the inner circle and if a regular chaplain was thought worthy, or found out too much, they'd be tested, if they passed, they became an Int Chaplain, if they failed, they would never be seen again. I forget about the librarians, on if they are all in or not, I think they may be all in as they use their powers to test potential members and how worthy they are.

I know the Techmarines are kept pretty much completely out of the inner circle as they can't trust their dual devotion to the chapter and to Mars.

Grand Master Raziel
26-06-2015, 04:47
I don't see this happening at all. At least not for chaplains, librarians and anything but a generic company master (and even that is doubtful since Sammy is CM). The way the chapter organization breaks down, there are no characters that are part of the Ravenwing other than Sammy. There just isn't any way for any character to be part of the Ravenwing.

That doesn't make any sense at all, either thematically or from a rules standpoint. Thematically, at least some of the chapter's Chaplains and Librarians must have come up through the Ravenwing, and even they aren't on paper part of the 2nd Company, you'd think they'd retain the skills they had while part of the company and be the natural choices to be seconded to them. From a rules perspective, why have a formation that only allows units with the Ravenwing rule to be part of it with 3 HQ choices if there's only 1 HQ choice that has the Ravenwing rule?

Mind you, I do find it easy to believe GW will forget to give generic characters some means of getting the Ravenwing rule, because this is GW we're talking about. Doesn't stop it from being idiotic though.

AngryAngel
26-06-2015, 05:19
It is either they forgot to place that ravenwing thing with the bikes, if so there should be a day 1 errata which is stupid for how expensive it is. Or, they just didn't think of it and placed 3 HQ's because they didn't edit it or look over some of the things put in, once more lack of effort. If a whole studio is behind this, they should have enough eyes to see the mistakes.

Freman Bloodglaive
26-06-2015, 06:41
If all units in a Deathwing formation have to be placed in Deep Strike Reserves, and Land Raiders cannot deep strike, then it appears pretty obvious that the squads cannot take Land Raiders and the reference to "dedicated transports" is meant to apply to the Venerable Dreadnought's drop pods.

If I recall the rules correctly only one terminator in an army can be upgraded to a Company Champion, and only one terminator in the army can be upgraded to an Apothecary. With those taken out there's little point in taking a Command Squad over a normal Deathwing Squad.

Losing Command
26-06-2015, 06:47
Well looking at how Necrons still have the cast-psychic-power-for-VP tactical objective, I wouldn't put it past them to give 3 HQ slots to the ravenwing FOC without realizing only one HQ can be taken.

beanerboy
26-06-2015, 06:56
If dreadnought can now be taken in squadrons can I still buy drop pods for them as a squad and have 2 pods arrive on the first turn with 1 dreadnought in each but both in the same squadron?

Spiney Norman
26-06-2015, 08:01
If dreadnought can now be taken in squadrons can I still buy drop pods for them as a squad and have 2 pods arrive on the first turn with 1 dreadnought in each but both in the same squadron?

Nope, you can only bring a drop pod as a ded. trans. if the squadron consists of a single dreadnought.

Itsacon
26-06-2015, 08:08
I don't see this happening at all. At least not for chaplains, librarians and anything but a generic company master (and even that is doubtful since Sammy is CM). The way the chapter organization breaks down, there are no characters that are part of the Ravenwing other than Sammy. There just isn't any way for any character to be part of the Ravenwing. It would be one thing if SM had some rank other than Chapter Master, Captain (Company Master) and Sergeant, but as is SM seriously have a command structure that dictates a grand total of 11 'commissioned officers' and 100-120ish* NCOs for 1000 men. Plus however psykers and zealous preachers fit into a command structure, which is sort of jammed onto the Chapter Master rather than the companies.

*3-5 man squads for bikes, terminators and etc


Is there no company chaplain for the Ravenwing like the battle companies have?

Second edition:
215842

Third edition:
215843

Fourth/fifth edition:
215844

Sixth edition:
215845

It's not until the 6th edition codex that the Reclusiam and the Librarius make an appearance, and even then one doesn't preclude the other. Librarians and Interrogators are still members of the Inner Circle, which isn't even mentioned in the 6th edition chart, nor are the company chaplains for the battle and reserve companies, even though they are still required if you want to field two demi-companies.

To sum it up, each company has:

Master or Grand Master (Belial and Sammael for the 1st and 2nd)
Chaplain (Interrogator for the 1st)
Standard bearer (Except 10th)
Apothecary
Champion (Except 10th)
Squads
Dreadnoughts
Rhinos (Land Raiders for the 1st)

Note that a Company Master can be a normal Master or a Grand Master. The difference being whether he's a member of the Inner Circle or not.

This might very well go for Chaplains as well: maybe an Interrogator can still be attached to a specific company after he's inducted into the Inner Circle (This certainly goes for the Deathwing)

Techmarines are part of the armoury, as are all vehicles except Rhinos and the DW Land Raiders

All other characters are part of the Inner circle as well as their specific `department' (Librarius for Librarians, for example)

Also: Technically, a Librarian would probably ride a green bike, as would a techmarine, since they're not Ravenwing. But rule of cool probably trumps logic.

TL;DR: DA chapter organisation is a Venn diagram: You can be in multiple circles. Interrogator Chaplains can be in a company, in the Reclusiam AND in the Inner Circle, for example.

Morrslieb
26-06-2015, 09:40
Second edition:
215842

Third edition:
215843

Fourth/fifth edition:
215844

Sixth edition:
215845

It's not until the 6th edition codex that the Reclusiam and the Librarius make an appearance, and even then one doesn't preclude the other. Librarians and Interrogators are still members of the Inner Circle, which isn't even mentioned in the 6th edition chart, nor are the company chaplains for the battle and reserve companies, even though they are still required if you want to field two demi-companies.

To sum it up, each company has:

Master or Grand Master (Belial and Sammael for the 1st and 2nd)
Chaplain (Interrogator for the 1st)
Standard bearer (Except 10th)
Apothecary
Champion (Except 10th)
Squads
Dreadnoughts
Rhinos (Land Raiders for the 1st)

Note that a Company Master can be a normal Master or a Grand Master. The difference being whether he's a member of the Inner Circle or not.

This might very well go for Chaplains as well: maybe an Interrogator can still be attached to a specific company after he's inducted into the Inner Circle (This certainly goes for the Deathwing)

Techmarines are part of the armoury, as are all vehicles except Rhinos and the DW Land Raiders

All other characters are part of the Inner circle as well as their specific `department' (Librarius for Librarians, for example)

Also: Technically, a Librarian would probably ride a green bike, as would a techmarine, since they're not Ravenwing. But rule of cool probably trumps logic.

TL;DR: DA chapter organisation is a Venn diagram: You can be in multiple circles. Interrogator Chaplains can be in a company, in the Reclusiam AND in the Inner Circle, for example.

IIRC Inner Circle icludes all Company Masters, Supreme Grand Master, Int-Chaplains, Librarians and atleast Chapter Master of each Unforgiven successor chapter.
RW detachment does not make much sense fluff wise and even less rules wise. I don't have 6th ed. codex with me but there should be short piece of fluff where chaplain rides with RW to unsuspecting village.
All in all, yeah I agree that Int-Chaplains and even Librarians could be part of the either wing, or atleast accompany them time to time.

Itsacon
26-06-2015, 10:05
Librarians can be part of a force, but not of a company.

My point is that Grand Master, Interrogator Chaplain, etc, are sort of like Veteran Sergeants: Same position as a normal Sergeant, but higher in Rank.

InstantKarma
26-06-2015, 13:26
It used to be all Int Chaplains were part of the inner circle and if a regular chaplain was thought worthy, or found out too much, they'd be tested, if they passed, they became an Int Chaplain, if they failed, they would never be seen again. I forget about the librarians, on if they are all in or not, I think they may be all in as they use their powers to test potential members and how worthy they are.

I know the Techmarines are kept pretty much completely out of the inner circle as they can't trust their dual devotion to the chapter and to Mars.

Any Librarians that survive training almost by default end up in the Deathwing. After all, they can read minds, so how hard would it be for them to pick up on the secrets of the DA?

But that then begs the question; do DA librarians know more than they let on?

Zustiur
26-06-2015, 13:30
The more time I spend looking at this codex the more I face-palm at the lack of consistency in editing/design/layout.
e.g. Interrogator Chaplain upgrade to terminator armour is 30 points. Can swap storm bolter for combi at 5 pts.
Yet a Librarian upgrades to Terminator armour for 25, and has to pay a further 5 for his storm bolter, or 10 for the combi weapons. Why the discrepancy in the way that was written? The result is the same, but it makes the editor look sloppy.

Itsacon
26-06-2015, 13:37
Because the Terminator Chaplain GW sells has a storm bolter, while the Terminator Librarian has it as one of the optional hands.

Spiney Norman
26-06-2015, 13:38
The more time I spend looking at this codex the more I face-palm at the lack of consistency in editing/design/layout.
e.g. Interrogator Chaplain upgrade to terminator armour is 30 points. Can swap storm bolter for combi at 5 pts.
Yet a Librarian upgrades to Terminator armour for 25, and has to pay a further 5 for his storm bolter, or 10 for the combi weapons. Why the discrepancy in the way that was written? The result is the same, but it makes the editor look sloppy.

I'd have thought it was perfectly logical
Terminator armour is costed at 25pts
A storm bolter is costed at 5pts

The Interrorgator chaplain can have both for 30, but the librarian can choose not to have the storm Bolter, getting the armour for the reduced cost of 25, or he can pay the full 30 for the set. I assume this is because they have just produced a plastic terminator librarian that has the option not to bring a storm bolter, and frankly I'm glad of the option, if I can choose to not pay 5 pts for a storm bolter I pretty much would do every time.

In addition the combi-weapon consistently costs 10pts across the codex, since the Libby doesn't pay for his storm bolter he pays 10, while the chaplain has the option to part-exchange his storm bolter (worth 5) and pay the additional 5 to upgrade to a Combi weapon.

When you break it down, it's actually remarkably consistent, I just wish the chaplain could part-exchange his crozius for a power fist or the mace of redemption in the same way.

Nightfall Shimmer
26-06-2015, 14:22
Sadly, the Crozius and the Rosarius are both symbols of his office.

Spiney Norman
26-06-2015, 14:35
Sadly, the Crozius and the Rosarius are both symbols of his office.

I just kind of wish he could have a symbol of office that was ap3 or better...

InstantKarma
26-06-2015, 14:44
You'd think given the Mace of Redmeption is essentially a super DA Crozius that the Chappy could swap them easy.

Nightfall Shimmer
26-06-2015, 14:44
*Shrug* You can always buy him a Power Weapon.

Here is a silly question: Where does a Command Squad fit into a Company's organization? Say for example I decided to collect the 6th Reserve Company. It's 10x10 man Tactical Squads in Rhinos with Company Master, Chaplain. The Company Champion, Apothecary and Company Standard Bearer are part of the Command Squad. Is that 'Squad 1/10' or a seperate additional Squad? IE: Is a Company 105-110 marines or 102?

InstantKarma
26-06-2015, 14:49
Well, the DAs & successors tend to keep their actual numbers a secret (Legion building and all that) so while the standard company outlines may help in determining how many should be there, with the DAs you can't really be certain (oddly enough, just like the SWs and BTs, whom we apparently get into tussles with as of the soon to be outdated codex). I'd imagine though that you'd count the Command Sqaud as within the 100 stanard marines that make up a company, rather than in addition to them. The Company Command squads are essentially the best Company Vets and tasked as bodyguard for the Company Master, so it would make more sense that they'd be counted in with the rest of the company.

Zustiur
26-06-2015, 15:56
I assume this is because they have just produced a plastic terminator librarian that has the option not to bring a storm bolter, and frankly I'm glad of the option, if I can choose to not pay 5 pts for a storm bolter I pretty much would do every time.

Hmm. I overlooked the fact you can choose not to have a gun, but that still doesn't really make sense. I can't think of any reason why you'd prefer to have a librarian with no gun. His powers don't happen in the shooting phase anymore and you can't get any of the relic weapons without giving up a weapon. So to get the Lion's Roar you'd first have to buy the storm bolter anyway.

Beppo1234
26-06-2015, 16:52
*Shrug* You can always buy him a Power Weapon.

Here is a silly question: Where does a Command Squad fit into a Company's organization? Say for example I decided to collect the 6th Reserve Company. It's 10x10 man Tactical Squads in Rhinos with Company Master, Chaplain. The Company Champion, Apothecary and Company Standard Bearer are part of the Command Squad. Is that 'Squad 1/10' or a seperate additional Squad? IE: Is a Company 105-110 marines or 102?

command squads aren't numbered. They have a skull symbol instead of a number. They are outside the company's 100 marine count

Itsacon
26-06-2015, 16:56
I can at this point confirm that the leaked images are indeed the codex as sold. The only pages missing are fluff and the reference page.

TemperMaximus
26-06-2015, 19:51
Well here's how I've reacted so far in more or less chronological order:
1) A bit of shock at the scope of nerfs they chose to hand out (grenade launcher, sacred standards, PFG, etc. Very nearly every good thing got nerfed)
2) Excitement about the buffs (re-rolling jinks, RWCS champion not terribad, interceptor on RWSS, fliers no longer worst in game, etc.)
3) Confusion about why we get fewer formations than SM including some we should have (Librarius Conclave is just the FW DA formation and yes I know we can still take it) and why a few of our formations are so strange/bad (Hammer of Caliban makes no sense...Land Raiders with Whirlwinds? Predators who already have monster/tank hunter?)
4) Disappointment that some of the units are still objectively bad (Asmodai mostly unchanged, Azrael more or less unchanged, Veterans actually worse because of weapons options)
5) Heavy face-palming from the abortion that is GW rules writing (DW detachment auto-loses, RW detachment auto-loses with fliers, only 1 HQ choice with Ravenwing when RWSF has options for 3)
6) Acceptance? no, not quite there yet

It's a better codex but that doesn't excuse some of these obvious blunders.

Sephillion
26-06-2015, 20:22
Yeah, I’m not getting the book.

Not because it’s not an improvement over the previous one. It is. I feel it’s objectively better than the 6th edition codex. BUT…

Nerfs (that change even the way the army is played). Missed opportunities again (Asmodai…). Stuff that hasn’t been buffed enough (Grim Resolve being still situational, I know I won’t care about overwatch vs my friend’s shooty Necrons…, LS still completely useless). Worst, the apparent errors leading to some ridiculous formations/detachments that don’t work – hopefully an errata will solve the issue quickly. Price. YES I BRING PRICE IN ANOTHER THREAD – 10$ than the previous one, two years after the last book, for a book that seems to miss the mark on so many level, is an insult. Hell, I’ll add “interromancy” as a discipline name to the list of my grievances, it’s just so horrible and laughable. Too bad the powers seem fun.

Not excited at all for this.

Lord Damocles
26-06-2015, 20:34
Here is a silly question: Where does a Command Squad fit into a Company's organization? Say for example I decided to collect the 6th Reserve Company. It's 10x10 man Tactical Squads in Rhinos with Company Master, Chaplain. The Company Champion, Apothecary and Company Standard Bearer are part of the Command Squad. Is that 'Squad 1/10' or a seperate additional Squad? IE: Is a Company 105-110 marines or 102?
Marines forming the Company Command Squad are in addition to the 10x10 Marines.

Where Reclusium and/or Librarium Command Squads are drawn from has never been elaborated on (presumably sometimes they're literally the Company Command, but not led by the Captain/Master, given that they can include all of the specialists). Since neither organisation has a standing pool of [non-Chaplain/Librarian] Marines to draw from, they're most likely gathered from within the 10x10 Marines (in a similar way to how Blood Angel Honour Guard units can be formed).

Freman Bloodglaive
27-06-2015, 08:25
But that then begs the question; do DA librarians know more than they let on?

Don't they always?

Zustiur
27-06-2015, 14:06
*Sigh* I found another nerf. Ravenwing banner only applies hit & run bonus to the unit carrying the banner. I hadn't noticed that change before.
Deathwing banner similarly nerfed, though that one was only 6" anyway...

GrandmasterWang
27-06-2015, 15:23
Well here's how I've reacted so far in more or less chronological order:
1) A bit of shock at the scope of nerfs they chose to hand out (grenade launcher, sacred standards, PFG, etc. Very nearly every good thing got nerfed)
2) Excitement about the buffs (re-rolling jinks, RWCS champion not terribad, interceptor on RWSS, fliers no longer worst in game, etc.)
3) Confusion about why we get fewer formations than SM including some we should have (Librarius Conclave is just the FW DA formation and yes I know we can still take it) and why a few of our formations are so strange/bad (Hammer of Caliban makes no sense...Land Raiders with Whirlwinds? Predators who already have monster/tank hunter?)
4) Disappointment that some of the units are still objectively bad (Asmodai mostly unchanged, Azrael more or less unchanged, Veterans actually worse because of weapons options)

It's a better codex but that doesn't excuse some of these obvious blunders.

Regarding point 3, I just want to say that imo the Hammer of Caliban makes perfect sense. With it you can put the land raider up front/tanking/bodyguard for the other 3 tanks as it causes them to be a vehicle squadron. Potentially Av 14 Whirlwinds are nothing to scoff at. Situational ....sure, valid....absolutely, brain fart...... no way.

BOLS has a decent article on using the Hammer of Caliban formation. I actually think it's a fitting formation for the Dark Angels.

Regarding the RW formation with 3 HQ options which currently seems like a brain fart. It did cross my jaded mind that maybe GW are leaving the path open for a future RW HQ release(cash grab) either in a White Dwarf exclusive or more likely a campaign/supplement like Leviathan/Red Waagh.

I still recall rumors for a DA/Tzeentch box set.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

AngryAngel
28-06-2015, 05:54
I think it is just a brain fart, and GW is ill.

Losing Command
28-06-2015, 07:30
There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions concerning the new DA dex.

Somehow it sounds fitting :p

Commissar Merces
28-06-2015, 15:18
How do we get an answer about this ravenwing HQ thing? This needs to be changed ASAP.

Itsacon
28-06-2015, 15:50
How do we get an answer about this ravenwing HQ thing? This needs to be changed ASAP.

Actually, it doesn't NEED to. It would be (very) nice, but as it is, the detachment is usable in just the same way as the previous codex: You need the MotRW to bring an all-bike army...

Morrslieb
28-06-2015, 18:28
Actually, it doesn't NEED to. It would be (very) nice, but as it is, the detachment is usable in just the same way as the previous codex: You need the MotRW to bring an all-bike army...

Actually, while MotRW made bikes troop last book allowed other hqs (with bike to go with the theme), while RW detachment don't since they lack Ravenwing rule,

Eldartank
28-06-2015, 20:26
a new kit is the only way to make that monstrosity attractive

Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I actually think the Nephilim/Dark Talon model looks really cool.

Spiney Norman
28-06-2015, 20:30
Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I actually think the Nephilim/Dark Talon model looks really cool.

No I agree with you, it's the best looking imperial flyer currently in plastic.

Eldartank
28-06-2015, 20:31
I have one quick question. It may already be answered, but there are so many posts to pore thru in the thread now.

It is still game legal to play an army of all Deathwing Terminators? I'd hate to see my 40+ Terminators being suddenly rendered mostly useless....

Lord Damocles
28-06-2015, 20:33
It is still game legal to play an army of all Deathwing Terminators? I'd hate to see my 40+ Terminators being suddenly rendered mostly useless....
It's game legal to play an army of all Techmarines or all Drop Pods if you want to.

Deathwing armies are still legal.

Voss
28-06-2015, 20:42
Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I actually think the Nephilim/Dark Talon model looks really cool.

There was a lot of disappointment in the last book that the model was actually nice (and not a brick with tail fins on), but the rules were truly abysmal.

Itsacon
28-06-2015, 21:01
Actually, while MotRW made bikes troop last book allowed other hqs (with bike to go with the theme), while RW detachment don't since they lack Ravenwing rule,

Fair point, that is indeed missing.



Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I actually think the Nephilim/Dark Talon model looks really cool.

+1



I have one quick question. It may already be answered, but there are so many posts to pore thru in the thread now.

It is still game legal to play an army of all Deathwing Terminators? I'd hate to see my 40+ Terminators being suddenly rendered mostly useless....

Not without going unbound.

Beppo1234
28-06-2015, 21:53
Actually, while MotRW made bikes troop last book allowed other hqs (with bike to go with the theme), while RW detachment don't since they lack Ravenwing rule,

you can still get librarians, put 'em on bikes, though as a separate formation.

Itsacon
28-06-2015, 22:19
Yeah, but that means bringing other troop choices as well.

Beppo1234
28-06-2015, 22:54
Yeah, but that means bringing other troop choices as well.

negative sir, conclave! (unless that is lost now). 4 bike librarians would be kind of sick

I dunno how to get a chaplain or company master(who you don't really need) in though. Techmarines IMO should be excluded as an formation theme. So the problem is the chaplain.

AngryAngel
28-06-2015, 23:08
Actually, it doesn't NEED to. It would be (very) nice, but as it is, the detachment is usable in just the same way as the previous codex: You need the MotRW to bring an all-bike army...

Very few things need to be done, but it would be nice if they found a need to do this.


Actually, while MotRW made bikes troop last book allowed other hqs (with bike to go with the theme), while RW detachment don't since they lack Ravenwing rule,

Agreed


negative sir, conclave! (unless that is lost now). 4 bike librarians would be kind of sick

I dunno how to get a chaplain or company master(who you don't really need) in though. Techmarines IMO should be excluded as an formation theme. So the problem is the chaplain.

The problem is more then just that. As some of us, odd as it may seem would enjoy to run some characters, but not 1 sammie and 4 libbys as the conclave, maybe like a 1 of each. So it would be nice if they would have proof read that, or even taken into account characters being of the ravenwing.

Beppo1234
28-06-2015, 23:15
The problem is more then just that. As some of us, odd as it may seem would enjoy to run some characters, but not 1 sammie and 4 libbys as the conclave, maybe like a 1 of each. So it would be nice if they would have proof read that, or even taken into account characters being of the ravenwing.

I'm not disagreeing, just saying the only problem is the chaplain as you can access the libs in a round about way.

AngryAngel
28-06-2015, 23:19
The fact you have to take so many libbys to fit them in does indeed make it a problem to some, me included. So the chaplain isn't the only problem.