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swordofglass
18-06-2015, 17:48
I am aware of Kings of War, even played a couple of games and really enjoyed it. Other than that, are there any other reasonably popular mass-ranked fantasy wargames? Not interested in historicals. Warmachine ruled out due to skirmish (may be interested one day though). I'm not really involved much in the wargame world at the moment other than GW, so thought I'd throw this out there.

Please note that this isn't a 'rage-quit' or 'whine' thread. I am eagerly awaiting what will become of WHFB, and if I don't like it I'll try to continue 8th, with a heavy heart. But I figure I might as well keep my options open and start thinking about this now. For example, Kings of War is very appealing to me due to the elegant rule-set and the abilty to play competetively without comp, which I'm starting to realise is what I really want from a wargame anyway.

What are the selling points / strengths / weaknesses of other systems (if there are any) compared to WHFB? I know this isn't a purely WHFB topic but hopefully it's okay in this forum as I'm interested from the point of view of a current Warhammer player.

HelloKitty
18-06-2015, 18:21
To my knowledge there are no other mainstream ranked games out there that deal in the fantasy genre.

Kings of War I'm hoping improves with 2nd edition as right now its far too generic and vanilla for me to enjoy (and I've tried twice now)

Everything is warband / skirmish level. The only other alternatives are historicals like hail caesar.

HannesB
18-06-2015, 18:31
Armies of Arcana is a good one. All you need in one book.

Montegue
18-06-2015, 18:44
I've heard good things about Armies, too. I'm *eagerly* awaiting the english language version of the beta rules for Warthrone, as I've heard *really* good things about it and want to begin promoting it as an alternative to Age of Sigmar if the rumors about AoS are true.

Tupinamba
18-06-2015, 21:49
As active and wide spread gaming communities, there are none. KOW comes the closest to that, but itīs still far from what WHFB has been in itīs heyday.

However, as alternative gaming rules that could be easily picked up if say, WHFB was destroyed and substituted by a skirmish game, there are at least KOW, Armies of Arcana and Warthrone.

I havenīt played the current version of Armies of Arcana, but the edition Iīve tried out in the past was great. KOW is a very good game, albeit not really what I`m looking for as substitute. Warthrone seems very promising, but Iīve only seen tidbits of the rules and never ever a youtube battle report... (hint, hint to AoW).

Iīm quite surprised the community hasnīt started discussing these alternatives more. I guess itīll only happen when/if the catastrophic rumours are indeed a reality. And I think that most are just planning on remain playing 8th or another Warhammer edition.

Personally, Iīd rather the community decide for an existing and supported alternative rules set and company, so that fantasy mass battle wargaming has a future and keeps recruiting new players.

mhsellwood
19-06-2015, 01:56
At the moment the only real alternative is Kings of War (by real alternative, I mean a system that has some level of active play happening, a company that is interested and willing to support it, is actually focussed on fantasy gaming, and either permits or encourages 28mm).

On the plus side for Kings of War, Mantic are a decent company who seem to want KoW to succeed, and the game play itself is solid with a focus on movement and positioning rather than rules exploits and building the unbeatable combination of units. On the downside, Mantic models are almost all dire rising occasionally to acceptable so many players use other producers ranges (long term this will be an issue as Mantic give the rules away for free and hope to sell models to make their profits; if no one buys the models why support it?), and the rules are somewhat bland with many armies very samey due to the limited range of stats, abilities and general customisability. Overall though not a bad use for your Warhammer miniatures.

Many other rule sets exist that allow for massed fantasy games, and many of them have about the same level of support as 8th Edition is likely to have, i.e. you can find a couple of forums where they will be mentioned by some, played by fewer, and inspiring very few new players. In this scenario finding players of many games is very hard and requires you to do a lot of work. If you enjoy 8th edition why not use that time and energy to keeping it alive rather than fragmenting whatever rump remains loyal?

On the subject of Warthrone... Avatars of War are chronically terrible at delivering actual product. If the game gets released in English that would be impressive.

snyggejygge
19-06-2015, 07:01
There's Fantasy warriors which has a dedicated fanbase at Frothers uk forum, the models are still sold at various sites such as Mirliton & em4, the game is great with cool details such as scouting, boasts & night/day.
However the game has 1 companion released during the 90's & while you can download the rules, the game is basically dead with no new models released & the active playerbase is old vets.
Armies of Arcana looks good, havent tried it though.
Personally I love the simple rules of KoW, more strategic & focus on movement instead of nasty comboes, the beta of 2.0 looks very nice & tbh it would already be my go to game for mass battles if it had more active players where I live (I have 1 opponent, 2 more willing to try it)

I forgot, there's also Hordes of the things, a very generic game, but as balanced as chess! Might interest someone, I liked it a lot when trying it out, but found it to be to generic for my tastes after about a dozen games.

jtrowell
19-06-2015, 08:01
Horde of the thing is better for smaller scales, for 28mm some king of units are hard to fit in the expected bases sizes, for exemple units of Chariots.

Kings of War 2nd edition is a great improvement. While the base system is still the same, they managed to fix the main known problems of the 1st edition, and the armies have been balanced during an open playtesting.

Note that even with the base rules, the Kingdom of Men army list has no official models, they made this list for people wanting to use historicals models from other manufacturers.
There is currently an open testing of additionnal lists for minor factions that are made mainly to allow people to use models from other ranges, you can even suggest models and if no entry fit they often add one.

There are already 3 armies added :
- a Kingdom of men and halfling engineers
- Ratkin
- The Herd, a army of beastmen, you can use your beastmen models from GW, but it might also work with classic mythological models of satyrs, centaurs and the like

The last beta version of the basic armies (plus magic artefacts) are there :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=770579356

The current beta for the minor factions are there :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XgQY5vVHs_V19N_2lsrpk59SIF9hi6_KDBqkmyitRro/edit#gid=689349073

If you have models from any manufacturer that would fit one of the minor factions, you can post about them on the beta forums so others know of them :
https://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-2-beta
... and if they don't have an appropriate entry in the army yet, it is possible that it might be added (they recently added the option for light crossbows for the ratking after someone linked corresponding models from a manufacturer)

Vazalaar
19-06-2015, 11:43
I haven't looked at Warthrone yet, if the English version is released I will certainly take a look. AoW miniatures atleast resemble GW aesthetics, which imo is a plus. The problem with Mantic is that even if KoW is well supported, it is supported with the most ugly miniatures I've seen in the last couple of years.

AoW should hurry translating their rules. Releasing an English Warthrone rulebook in July would be a smart move.

zoggin-eck
19-06-2015, 14:22
I had a look at this thread on my lunch break today and wrote a lazy list of suitable games on a post-it note. A couple have of course been mentioned, but hopefully the links help. Here's all I could think of at the time. These I at least own and have read, even if during my search for the "perfect game" I haven't managed to play them all! Varying degrees of "reasonably popular" though. As usual, it depends where you are. I went to a convention recently and was surprised at the games being played.

I'm very aware that thread like this can end up as just people posting "OK for you, nobody plays anything non-GW here". Just how it goes though. Get about to clubs or conventions, convert friends/family or sadly go along with whatever game your group is into, even if it's whatever WHFB will become. I still think it's worth looking at what else is around, though.

*****

Armies of Arcana.

Pretty straightforward Warhammer-ish game. Units assume 25mm bases, but as usual that's easy enough to get around.

http://www.armiesofarcana.com/rulebook.aspx

Hordes of the Things by WRG.

This one's been around long enough. Element based, one list for all armies with games being 24 points (most units are one point each). Battles take up less room than most games. Good for using randomly collected models. Heaps of info online. Used to be free online before the "2.1 edition". If interested, take a look at the ancients set DBA (De Bellis Antiquitatis) which it's based on, which is available free online. Then again, a look at a cheat-sheet/summary is probably enough to tell you if it's the game for you :) Probably best for conventions.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hordes-The-Things-Version-2-1/dp/B00INYFTC4

Mighty Armies.

Designed for 15mm, but just double everything including bases for 28mm. Element based, simple rules. All armies from one list. Extra flier rules and lists online. This is the game I really want to play, but really need a larger table/setup. For 6mm/10mm I'd love to try it over Warmaster.

http://www.rebelminis.com/mightyarmies.html
http://www.wargamevault.com/product/62147/Mighty-Armies-Fantasy?src=hottest_filtered

Legions of Battle.

The only game I've had ready to buy, credit card in hand ready to buy online, only to double check and see that I bought it the previous year and forgot about it! Units made up of multiple elements of four infantry, two cavalry etc. Sadly, their use of Mantic models in the rulebook makes it hard for me to remember how different it is! Strikes me as between WHFB and KoW.

http://www.crusaderpublishing.com/LegionsofBattle.php

Mayhem.

Interesting use of different dice and a risk/safe option decision when rolling dice. Element based, mostly designed for smaller scales but easily solved. Make your own list calculator. Useful army-building files online.

http://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/
http://www.wargamevault.com/product/110359/Mayhem

Dark Heaven Apocalypse - Reaper Miniatures

Out of Print, before their current "Warlord" rules. I only just bought and read these recently! Probably a game I should have bought when new. Smaller size games than proper "mass ranked", there's an option for ranked units, but really vague rules for them. Again, make up your own units/models (I wish there was an online calculator though).

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2509/dark-heaven-apocalypse

Battlesystem 1 & 2 - AD&D

Out of Print. Two different editions, different rules. (Also a skirmish game using the same Battlesystem name). I've sat down a couple of times trying to get the hang of them, but I just love the photos of old models :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlesystem

By this Axe.

Cute little set. Not enough depth/options/units really, more an easy set to use in an RPG campaign. Options for 1:5 scale and 1:20. Some optional rules for abstract model-less battles (OK, less useful for a WHFB alternative!).

http://hillcantons.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/by-this-axe-fantasy-battle-rules.html

Book of War.

An experiment on mass-battle rules based on original D&D. Not really my thing, but I got sucked in after reading the in-depth development on the blog! Not nearly enough options for your usual WHFB collection, really just basic infantry, archers and cavalry. Again, probably more useful as an RPG supplement.

http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/book-of-war-released.html
http://www.oedgames.com/

No Quarter.

Free set, very WHFB. Uses D10s. Individual models, smaller units than WHFB. All units can change from ranked to skirmish. Make your own models/units. Useful Excel files for this online. I really like the "AC" stat, which shows what/how much each model can do a turn, used for everything from movement to number of attacks. Ideal game for me, if only I had an opponent as interested in a more detailed game. It's simpler in some ways to WHFB, but more detailed in others. I always dismissed it as a "fan game" with too many pages. I was surprised to see how easily the rules read and are understood, however. Great options for the usually "hard to proxy" units like Skaven special weapons and artillery. I suspect the game exists so the author could use and promote I-kore/Celtos models! Clearly a big fan :)

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

Fantasy Warriors.

Nick Lund's answer to Warhammer. Never quite read it all myself, it has its fans on the Frothers forum. Many will remember it from the boxed set. The plastic models from em4 are still incredible value! New edition via Indiegogo didn't work out, sadly :(

http://www.grenadier.it/fantasy-warriors-ruleset.php?tipo=dwn
http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Fantasy_Warriors.html

Fantasy Warlord.

Ian Bailey & Gary Chalk's answer to Warhammer! (Including Red Giant, their answer to White Dwarf :)). Plenty has been said by the authors since regarding its demise. Models still from Alternative Armies of you ask nicely.

https://www.facebook.com/fwarlord
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Fantasy_Warlord

God of Battles - Foundry/Jake Thornton

Not quite mass-battle or exactly ranked, but still worth mentioning. The lists are fairly restrictive it seems, based on the Foundry fantasy range available at the time, which is the only reason I didn't buy it despite following the developments on his blog.

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob/god-battle/

Fantasy Rules! - Chipco Games.

Element based, single list for everyone. seems a real favourite to fans! Interesting morale rules. I couldn't get my head around these rules, sadly! I own the shortened "tournament/campaign" edition. I should give the bigger 3rd edition set a try and see if it makes more sense. It could of course just be me! Every review convinced me it was the game I'm looking for...

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11056/fantasy-rules

Dragon Rampant - Osprey

OK, not available yet and smaller armies/skirmished units of models. It will be a good go-to for people with smaller collections. Enough people already use WHFB armies in Lion Rampant, just without the more fantasy elements. Looking forward to this one, quite a bit of momentum gathering already...

http://merseybooks.blogspot.com.au/2015/04/dragon-rampant-fantasy-wargaming-lion.html

Knights and Magick

OK, I just love to see old games re-released! Bought in a fit of "false nostalgia for games released even before I was born". Way too complicated and RPG for me. I'd still love to try it properly.

http://thegaminggang.com/notes/knights-and-magick-classic-miniatures-rule-set-back-in-print-here-at-tgg/

USE ME fantasy - Alternative armies/15mm.co.uk

Interesting one where units are made up of groups of three models, starting with three command models. I love the idea of being able to combine remnant models into units mid-game. Same goes for wounded models within a unit being slower and falling behind. I don't really like the idea of moving those individual models withing a unit and keeping track of them! Same goes for the command being the centre of the unit, not leading from the front

http://www.15mm.co.uk/products/um002-useme-15mm-fantasy

Of Gods and Mortals - Osprey/Ganesha Games.

A "Song of Blades" variant. Not quite mass battle, the "mortal" units are skirmished using a CD as a movement tray or ranked, all units of just four to eight models. The movement rules for units is a bit too vague for me. Hard to use Warhammer models since the focus is on the three tiers - "gods" (massive models) and "legends" (lesser heroes) and "mortals" (their followers) and how they interact with each-other. I can imagine a Skaven Doomwheel as a proxy god until it is destroyed and gets summoned back to life on another part of the battlefield by mortals. As with all the "Song of Blades and Heroes" and similar games, the simple two-stat profile encourages way too many special rules in my eyes. Just having a unit of archers be better at shooting than close combat requires a special rule. I wouldn't mind trying a few games without god altogether, with characters and odd special models filling the role of legends.

http://www.northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=159&page=1
http://www.wargamevault.com/product/133364/Of-Gods-and-Mortals--Mythological-Wargame-Rules?src=newest

Speaking of which....

Ganesha Games really need to get around to releasing "Song of Armies and Hordes". At the very least, take advantage of Warhammer's uncertainty. Then again, it's been "coming soon" since what? 2010? 2007? :(

Conqueror: Fields of Victory

I'm really only familiar with it through the Warseer thread where it started as an alternative to Warhammer.

http://ahlloyd.com/conqueror-fields-of-victory/

One page Fantasy.

Fan rules for pretty much everything GW. Unashamedly a simplified game to replace/resemble Warhammer. Kind of WHFB meets FUBAR or any other simple set that uses a "quality" stat for most rolls. Smaller armies than 8th edition and very fast. Lots of dice, up to you if that's a bad thing :) A little heavy on special rules and probably hindered by trying to fit everything on "one page". I even wrote a simple report in my Warseer log for my first game :) People do need to get over the "one page" claim in the title. It's the main rules that fit on one page, not every list and special rule combined! :mad: For what they are, I like them. If I were introducing a new player who really wanted games to still "look like" WHFB (as opposed to something like Hordes of the things with WHFB models), I would try this first.

https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/portfolio/one-page-fantasy/

*****

Hmm... that's about all I can think of for the moment.

There are of course plenty of other smaller-scale games that could be made into 28mm by doubling distances and element base size. Warmaster (10mm) of course, but others like Pride of Lions. Same with the recently released Warband by Pendraken (10mm).

Lots of skirmish games of course (old, OOP and new) but some that are for larger games than, say, Mordheim/Song of Blades but smaller than WHFB such as Warrior Heroes by Two Hour Wargames (actually, they do a mass-battle game as well). Same with Ares "miniature wargame system", which I'm itching to play.

One thing I always keep in mind is whether a game will let me use the more display/unique models in my collection. I'm tired of games telling me I can use "any model" (as if anyone, including WHFB players have ever needed to be told) when the game doesn't have rules for something simple like a cannon or chariot, let alone a war-wagon or gyrocopter. Many should just say "any infantry model"...

A good test of a unit-calculator/army list for me is if I can field a Skaven Doomwheel (chariot with ranged attack?) or a globadier (short-ranged with template or interesting effect?).

Worth noting are the odd game on the horizon like Warthrone (ignoring the concerns with AoW and if the game will be finished...) and the mentioned Dragon Rampant and others (new version of Celtos still coming?). I think it's a pretty sweet time to be into fantasy wargaming :)

jtrowell
19-06-2015, 14:24
Remember that Mantic's Kings of War has a fairly generic system that is perfect for using models from other manufacturers.

If you have a Warhammer army, you certainly have the models to start one or several KoW armies before buying even one model.

Also, they are getting better, with the Deadzone Kickstarer they finally made decent to good hard plastic models again, and the sculpt of some of Deadzone and Dreadball restic models are very good from my point of view (I really like the Marauder captain as well as the Plague 1st and 2nd generation for exemple), I think that their reputation of bad models comes from a mix of good scuplts/plastic with unpopular design (like their elves, the thin bodies make them more distincts but is not for everyone) plus bad tooling when they moved from Renedra to some chinese manufacturer for the previous KoW kickstarter (the infamous men-at-arms and goblins), where the chinese manufacturer lacked the software to read properly the 3D models and they got some guy to rebuild/convert (badly) the 3D models to their own software without telling Mantic about it.

This is a problem, but they learned from it, and when Deadzone first plastic sprues came back with similar flaws they delayed the shipping until they got a good solution for their hard plastic sprues.

You don't like their models for their design ?

Fair enough, try the game (ideally the 2nd edition beta as it fixes most of the flaws of the 1st) with others models then.

And if you realize that you like the rules after testing their free version, you will be able (but not required) to buy the printed book, eitheir a small cheap one for gaming, or the deluxe hardcover one for reading with fluff and the like.

The rules and the models of a game are not required to be linked to the same manufacturer, historicals already know this, and when using generic fantasy tropes like elves, orcs, dwarves , there is no reason that we should limit ourselves.

StygianBeach
20-06-2015, 00:05
Snip! Good Stuff



About all I can add to this list is Wargods of Aegyptus, and Wargods of Olympus.
They are very Warhammer Fantasy 6th, but where your main hero can level up and can have some interesting god given powers. Uses D10's.

Made by Crocodile Games (http://www.crocodilegames.com/)

Oh there is also Celtos, which is basically Warhammer Skirmish with D10's.

Celtos (http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Celtos/)

Malagor
20-06-2015, 00:08
Apperently there is some work being done converting Hail Caesar to work with fantasy so there is that as well.

Kyriakin
20-06-2015, 10:00
As I am moving back to London soon (i.e. a huge GW catchment area) from the Far East, I'm moving over to Warmaster. I never played, but it sounds like the antithesis of what I hate about the post-8th rumours:

- Mass battles - Check
- Less magic influence - Check
- Generalship over list-building - Check
- Miniatures within my painting level - Check
- Focus on the smaller guys over huge mega-characters - Check

It only falls down one one thing - metals. However, it seems the best option for me now.

Never even got around to taking my WHFB models out of their boxes, having returned to the hobby after 18 years away. Guess I will sit on them and sell them once the dust settles...

Whirlwind
20-06-2015, 10:54
There is a new game proposed by Shieldwolf Miniatures http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/ that was part of a Kickstarter earlier this year. This also appears to be set up as a fantasy battle style game. Rules are still being tested so can't say anything about the game. Models have potential though.

The_Real_Chris
20-06-2015, 13:38
That i have tried? None.

When I say none I mean mass ranked combat where every model counts, at least a little bit.

Most follow the kings of war style unit approach. Far more sensible, can play quicker, but isn't the same feel as Warhammer. Really for KoW I can use a rectangle of paper and lose very little (it is compulsory now to note the mantic undead plastics are good and I personally rate their plastic elves which have a marmite design but technically are good).

I moved to God of battles. All in one nice rule book (often on sale for Ģ12.50) and a feel reminiscent of I think Warhammer 3rd ed but with tighter, faster rules. But 3rd ed was a lot smaller and you don't have the numbers you would recognise from 8th ed on the table.

big squig
26-06-2015, 18:39
I've just switched 100% to Kings of War at this point. i'm not a fan of their models, but all the armies are almost copy/paste of WHFB so I just use my warhammer models instead. I mean they switch over almost flawlessly.

Yes, you 'could' use paper rectangles for your units, b ut then why are you playing a miniature game? I love converting and painting and KoW lets me make dioramas for all my units. Armies look so much cooler.

Groza
26-06-2015, 19:28
I guess it's time to change the title to "What mass-ranked fantasy wargames are there?" :p

HelloKitty
26-06-2015, 19:46
Apparently only Kings of War. Makes me very sad.

Lars Porsenna
26-06-2015, 19:55
Horde of the thing is better for smaller scales, for 28mm some king of units are hard to fit in the expected bases sizes, for exemple units of Chariots.

25mm basing with moder figures is indeed...optimistic. However, I'd reccommend using Warrior 28mm basing. Warrior is WRG 7th Ancient/Medieval rules with some updates...and of course HoTT is the fantasy version of DBA, which is the successor (along with DBM and now DBMM) of the old WRG rules series. Make a long story short, Warrior 28mm basing switches the frontage to 80mm, perfect to fit 4 Warhammer 20mm based figures into a 4-figure element. Also works for 25mm based figures too, if you base them as warbands. In the end however, as long as everything is based similarly, it doesn't matter what frontage you use as long as everyone agrees what the frontage should be.

Damon.

The_Real_Chris
26-06-2015, 20:30
Yes, you 'could' use paper rectangles for your units, b ut then why are you playing a miniature game? I love converting and painting and KoW lets me make dioramas for all my units. Armies look so much cooler.

Yeah - but instead what has happened is I play other games where the units do matter... I do enjoy and play element based games likes king of the battlefield, largely because abstraction is necessary. But I started playing fantasy with WHFB and have remained in the mindset of each guy mattering - at least in the front line. I like the Wargames Foundry fantasy unit fillers.

Commissar von Toussaint
27-06-2015, 02:38
Hey, great thread! :D

Yes, there is an alternative that I designed called Conqueror: Fields of Victory. It is 100 percent compatible with whatever figures you have in mind. It has guidelines to build your own armies but if you want to dry something outside the printed book, I can work with you to make it happen. More specifically, tell what armies you'd like to bring over and I can see if we have generated conversion lists for them.

It has its own thread here on Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?19917-Building-a-better-Warhammer/page31), and I will caution that the external site may be a bit sketchy as I am in the process of rebuilding it.

I will end this shameless plug by noting that my primary motivation for designing the system was to get off the GW treadmill. When word of 7th came out, I made my move. I felt WHFB 6th ed. had some flaws but overall was a good system and I wasn't interested in buying all-new books. So I set out to "build a better Warhammer" that would be flexible but also a "definitive" game that would only make revisions when necessary. Since I already have a day job (actually three of them :( ) I have no interest in the planned obsolescence strategy of GW and some other publishers (even Wizards of the Coast got into this with DnD - to their great detriment, IMHO).

If GW is Microsoft, Conqueror is Linux. :p

mrtn
27-06-2015, 11:29
Apperently there is some work being done converting Hail Caesar to work with fantasy so there is that as well.

Here's a Yahoo group link (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HailCaesarFantasy/info). It also has info for Pike & Shotte & Sorcery, a similar deal for Pike & Shotte. Personally I'll use either of these for my ranked up fantasy gaming.

I did try Kings of War but didn't find it engaging enough. Yes, only once, so it might be worthy of a second test, but I do prefer the randomised orders and movement of P&S.

Malagor
27-06-2015, 12:31
Here's a Yahoo group link (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HailCaesarFantasy/info). It also has info for Pike & Shotte & Sorcery, a similar deal for Pike & Shotte. Personally I'll use either of these for my ranked up fantasy gaming.

I did try Kings of War but didn't find it engaging enough. Yes, only once, so it might be worthy of a second test, but I do prefer the randomised orders and movement of P&S.
If only I could be arsed to make a yahoo account :p
But they are excellent rulesets(even tho I have only read Hail Caesar and Black Powder) and I can see it working well in a fantasy setting.

The_Real_Chris
27-06-2015, 17:29
It is a lot of work though doing army lists. Has taken the UK tournie guys for epic almost a decade to get to this number of balanced lists. http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/army-lists/

Commissar Vaughn
27-06-2015, 20:12
Apperently there is some work being done converting Hail Caesar to work with fantasy so there is that as well.

RP has been quoted as saying that he is looking at writing a fantasy version anyway (Hail Sigmar!)

I cant help wandering if hes missed the boat by doing GOA first though; if he'd timed a fantasy Hail Caeser to come out this year I cant help thinking a lot of folk might have jumped ship to it....



Theres a slight problem warhammer/40k players seem to have though which is divorcing Models from Rules. I suppose it comes of having both presented together for so long that its not immediately obvious that its not actually necessary. All hail ceaser needs is a bit of magic, and some rules to cover the wackier stuff like flying monsters . Your goblins can still quite happily get duffed up by poncy elves....

mrtn
27-06-2015, 20:37
If only I could be arsed to make a yahoo account :p
But they are excellent rulesets(even tho I have only read Hail Caesar and Black Powder) and I can see it working well in a fantasy setting.

I know, yahoo is a bit 90's... The P&S&S stuff can be had here (http://www.timbancroft.me.uk/pss/) as well. It's not hard to make up your own rules yourself though, just treat your sorcerers as light cannons and for the rest it's just different types of units. For HC I'd say "these dwarves are Romans, those orcs are Gauls, GO!", and then tweak over time. :)

Humanoid
28-06-2015, 21:04
Wow, lots of information in this thread. I am asking for help to find a ruleset which fits or which I can easily modify to meet my criteria. Otherwise, I will have to start from scratch. I start with the following:

- the core is humans, elves, dwarves and orcs
- shock weapons (for example, club and spear) are more lethal than range weapons (arrow and javelin)
- weapon/armor technology is pre-historic, but battle formations are early civilization

The intent of the above is to have a game where skirmisher units (or loose formation units) harass ranked units (or open/closed formation units), but ranked units crush skirmisher units in straight on close-combat. Under-sized ranked units can become skirmisher units, and skirmisher units can join other compatible units.

In this fantasy world, there are no horses, and no riding beasts whatsoever. Thus, for example, no cavalry, no chariots. Any combat is done on foot. There are land (and sea) monsters of different sizes, but no flying monsters. The army that fields monsters and that maintains control of those monsters in battle increases its odds of winning the battle.

Leaders and specialists are independent of the skirmisher and ranked units, and provide generalship and monster control, respectively. Without leaders, the army becomes ineffective, and often disintegrates. Without specialists, monsters become uncontrollable and are just as deadly as the enemy, and become susceptible to being controlled by the enemy specialists .

As to magic and dieties, their effects should influence the game, but not change its momentum.

There are no castles and no warmachines. Humans live in huts on the plains, elves in the deep forest, dwarves in the mountain caves, and orcs in the bog swamps. There is commerce between them even during war.

For miniatures, I am going to use my GW elves which are on 20mm square bases, and will put 25mm round bases on my Mantic dwarves that I have not based yet. For movement trays, I see one-standard size of a 25mm square for ranked formations.

That's the type of fantasy game that I would like to play.

English 2000
28-06-2015, 23:41
I know, yahoo is a bit 90's... The P&S&S stuff can be had here (http://www.timbancroft.me.uk/pss/) as well. It's not hard to make up your own rules yourself though, just treat your sorcerers as light cannons and for the rest it's just different types of units. For HC I'd say "these dwarves are Romans, those orcs are Gauls, GO!", and then tweak over time. :)
From what I understand Hail Ceasar doesn't have a points system so I imagine it's hard to get balanced games using the existing rules.

Commissar von Toussaint
28-06-2015, 23:53
Wow, lots of information in this thread. I am asking for help to find a ruleset which fits or which I can easily modify to meet my criteria. Otherwise, I will have to start from scratch. I start with the following:

- the core is humans, elves, dwarves and orcs
- shock weapons (for example, club and spear) are more lethal than range weapons (arrow and javelin)
- weapon/armor technology is pre-historic, but battle formations are early civilization

The intent of the above is to have a game where skirmisher units (or loose formation units) harass ranked units (or open/closed formation units), but ranked units crush skirmisher units in straight on close-combat. Under-sized ranked units can become skirmisher units, and skirmisher units can join other compatible units.

Conqueror has three formations - column (the basic formation), skirmisher and square. Skirmishers are very vulnerable to an attack by a column.

The option about allowing units to change formation from column to skirmish would be part of the army special rules.

Missile fire's primary purpose in Conqueror is to disrupt and disorder enemies, not mow them down ala The Somme, 1916.


In this fantasy world, there are no horses, and no riding beasts whatsoever. Thus, for example, no cavalry, no chariots. Any combat is done on foot. There are land (and sea) monsters of different sizes, but no flying monsters. The army that fields monsters and that maintains control of those monsters in battle increases its odds of winning the battle.

Okay, so leave cavalry off the list as well as flyers.


Leaders and specialists are independent of the skirmisher and ranked units, and provide generalship and monster control, respectively. Without leaders, the army becomes ineffective, and often disintegrates. Without specialists, monsters become uncontrollable and are just as deadly as the enemy, and become susceptible to being controlled by the enemy specialists .

The primary function of characters in Conqueror is to help shore up morale and command and control. In your army list, you would rate the monsters as E Morale but allow them to test off of their 'minders," who would have a much better rating. Conqueror has both a morale table and command table, so the latter would be what I would use.


As to magic and dieties, their effects should influence the game, but not change its momentum.

Magic in Conqueror is optional and secondary to combat power, but it can enhance (or harm) units.


There are no castles and no warmachines. Humans live in huts on the plains, elves in the deep forest, dwarves in the mountain caves, and orcs in the bog swamps. There is commerce between them even during war.

For miniatures, I am going to use my GW elves which are on 20mm square bases, and will put 25mm round bases on my Mantic dwarves that I have not based yet. For movement trays, I see one-standard size of a 25mm square for ranked formations.

That's the type of fantasy game that I would like to play.

It's an interesting concept and one I've toyed with from time to time. I started a book a couple of years ago that was set before the drowning of Atlantis so the technology was primarily neolithic, but the Atlanteans had bronze.

Based on what you wrote, it would be possible to generate a list using Conqueror that would meet all of your requirements. If you want to move this to the Conqueror thread (so I don't spam this up) I can talk to you further about how you want the forces rated and what the point values would be.

mrtn
29-06-2015, 01:27
From what I understand Hail Ceasar doesn't have a points system so I imagine it's hard to get balanced games using the existing rules.

It does have a points system, but in the army list books, not in the main rule book. That said I don't think it's very exact, if you want a totally balanced game where every point counts I'm not sure it's for you. If on the other hand you want a fun game it probably is...

It's a "let's see how this scenario plays out" type of game, where your left flank can refuse to move, while your right flank charges ahead. It's not a "I'm gonna beat you with my leet combos" type of game.

HelloKitty
29-06-2015, 01:56
From a player that plays a lot of Hail Caesar, there is a points system but you typically play the game with a game master or a campaign system with forces that are for the most part picked for you. If you are picking your own force, it is for a certain scenario and things like min/max, OP builds don't show up because the players know that the game system is not meant for tournament balance.

English 2000
29-06-2015, 02:14
Thanks for the comments on Hail Ceasar guys. While I'm not a hardcore tournament player, I do like to have reasonably balanced games (stop laughing, WHFB isn't THAT badly balanced any more). I don't think Hail Ceasar is the game for me. I am more than a bit Manticurious though and have been trying (without success) to get people playing Kings of War around here.

jet_palero
29-06-2015, 05:30
>Thanks for the comments on Hail Ceasar guys. While I'm not a hardcore tournament player, I do like to have reasonably balanced games (stop laughing, WHFB isn't THAT badly balanced any more). I don't think Hail Ceasar is the game for me. I am more than a bit Manticurious though and have been trying (without success) to get people playing Kings of War around here.

HC is still quite capable of supplying a balanced army environment. They do provide the tools to do so, and the rules themselves are quite elegant. You should take a closer look before giving up on it.

jtrowell
29-06-2015, 08:08
Wow, lots of information in this thread. I am asking for help to find a ruleset which fits or which I can easily modify to meet my criteria. Otherwise, I will have to start from scratch. I start with the following:

- the core is humans, elves, dwarves and orcs
- shock weapons (for example, club and spear) are more lethal than range weapons (arrow and javelin)
- weapon/armor technology is pre-historic, but battle formations are early civilization

The intent of the above is to have a game where skirmisher units (or loose formation units) harass ranked units (or open/closed formation units), but ranked units crush skirmisher units in straight on close-combat. Under-sized ranked units can become skirmisher units, and skirmisher units can join other compatible units.

In this fantasy world, there are no horses, and no riding beasts whatsoever. Thus, for example, no cavalry, no chariots. Any combat is done on foot. There are land (and sea) monsters of different sizes, but no flying monsters. The army that fields monsters and that maintains control of those monsters in battle increases its odds of winning the battle.

Leaders and specialists are independent of the skirmisher and ranked units, and provide generalship and monster control, respectively. Without leaders, the army becomes ineffective, and often disintegrates. Without specialists, monsters become uncontrollable and are just as deadly as the enemy, and become susceptible to being controlled by the enemy specialists .

As to magic and dieties, their effects should influence the game, but not change its momentum.

There are no castles and no warmachines. Humans live in huts on the plains, elves in the deep forest, dwarves in the mountain caves, and orcs in the bog swamps. There is commerce between them even during war.

For miniatures, I am going to use my GW elves which are on 20mm square bases, and will put 25mm round bases on my Mantic dwarves that I have not based yet. For movement trays, I see one-standard size of a 25mm square for ranked formations.

That's the type of fantasy game that I would like to play.

God of Battles (http://quirkworthy.com/god-of-battles/) has something that you might like about the ranked versus skirmish. Some units are "warriors" in loose formation (like skirmish in Warhammer), and you can even base them on round bases if you want as they never rank up, while others units are ranked "soldiers" in formations, giving them an edge in combat to the front, but making them harder to maneouver and giving them weakness to the flank and rear.

There are cavalries, but they are few and not a main part of the game, so you can ignore them easily if you want.

The_Real_Chris
29-06-2015, 20:46
And it has a lovely rule book which is often on sale...

mrtn
30-06-2015, 11:14
Here's another take on Hail Caesar Fantasy just posted on the Warlord Games forums. Direct link: http://adyswargamesden.com/2015/06/shadow-storm-aka-hail-caesar-fantasy-army-lists-added/